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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Betty.W on Thursday 19 August 10 16:04 BST (UK)
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Please can someone help me to help Sheila in Australia who has contacted me. On my tree I have a William Murray B.29.9.1850 in St.Brides a coach painter. He was married to Ellen Condon B c1852, in Clerkenwell on 25.12.1900. Williams parents were John William Murray B1822 (coach painter) and Elizabeth Cooper B1821.
William Had a son John William Murray born 1874 who married Alice Riley b1879.
Sheila believes that my family are hers BUT she has John (1874) as John Atherstone Murray !! It seems that this John was a bit of a liar as he apparently gives his occupation on various censuses as :- Electrical engineer, Doctor, Waiter. Also, his birth place varies from England to Sydney Australia.
Sheila has also found him listed on a ship going to Australia, after he had abandoned his wife/partner Phyllis Salome Parkes and several children.Any help as regards this John's parentage etc would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Betty W
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Hi
St Agnes Southwark 22nd December 1900 Private baptism born 16th December
Sidney John De Muray parents John Joseph De Muray and Phyllis Salome De Muray, 21 Agnes Place, father's occupation telephone inspector
1901 census RG13 382 folio 59
21 Agnes Place Newington Southwark
John A D Murray 29 Head Married Electrical Engineer Sydney Australia
Phyllis Murray 24 Wife Married London Essex
Regards
Valda
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Hi
St Mary, Newington 26th October 1904 born 27th August
Arthur Reginald De Muray parents John Atherston De Muray and Phyllis De Muray, 14 Crampton Street, father's occupation waiter.
Births Mar 1900
De Muray Dorothy St. Saviour 1d 165
Deaths Mar 1900
De Muray Dorothy 0 St. Saviour 1d 105
Births Mar 1901
De Muray Sydney John St Saviour 1d 157
Deaths Mar 1901
DE MURAY Sydney J 0 St Saviour 1d 81
Births Jun 1902
DE MURAY Cecil Henry Southwark 1d 168
Births Dec 1904
DE MURAY Arthur Reginald Southwark 1d 112
Births Sep 1906
De Muray Dorothy Phyllis Wandsworth 1d 705
Births Mar 1910
DE MURAY Sydney Leonard E. Preston 2b 304
Regards
Valda
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Hi
25th December 1900 St Philip, Clerkenwell
John William Murray 27 Bachelor Warehouseman 6 Baker Street William Murray Coach painter
Alice Maud Riley 21 Spinster 6 Baker Street Edwin Riley Book binder
Both signed
Witnesses Edwin Riley and Ethel Pauline Riley
1901 census RG13 252 folio 163
64 Great Percy Street Clerkenwell
John Murray 27 Head Married Warehouseman St Giles London
Alice Murray 22 Wife Married Clerkenwell London
28th May 1902 St Philip, Clerkenwell
Alice Lydin Ellen Murray parents John William Murray and Alice Maude Murray, 10 Nelson Square Blackfriars, father's occupation warehouseman
1891 census RG12 391 folio 173
22 Upper Marsh Lambeth
William Murray 41 Head Married Coach painter City of London
Ellen Murray 39 Wife Married Not known
John Murray 17 Son Warehouseman Duke Street City of London
Alfred Murray 15 Son City of London
Ellen Murray 13 Daughter Lambeth
William Murray 17 Son Lambeth
James Murray 17 Son Lambeth
Ernest Murray 4 Son Lambeth
Regards
Valda
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Hi
Phyllis marrying
Marriages Mar 1915
Mitchell Thomas R Parkes Westhampnett 2b 661
Parkes Phyllis S Mitchell Westhampnett 2b 661
Births Sep 1876
Parkes Philis Salome W.Ham 4a 111
1891 census RG12 1351 folio 82
41 Frampington Road Wanstead Essex
George F Parkes 44 Head Married Piano fork case maker Shoreditch London
Eliza Parker 43 Wife Married Gibraltar British Subject
William J Parkes 17 Son Piano forte finisher Shoreditch London
Phyllis S Parkes 14 Daughter Leyton Essex
Henry E Parkes 12 Son Leyton Essex
Herbert A Parkes 9 Son Wanstead Essex
Ernest F Parkes 2 Son Wanstead Essex
A Phyllis S Mitchell's death was registered in Chichester in 1953 aged 76
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda 1891 census should be Trumpington Road. I know it well.
Jennifer
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Hi
Thanks I obviously missed off my usual ? when in doubt. It was quite a bit to type in and find, so I look to have been tiring by the time I got to 1891.
Regards
Valda
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Every so often I try and trace my grandfather who was a mystery. My father who was born on May 3rd 1924 never knew him. I recently found the census details for the address where my grandmother lived in 1921. 140 Warwick Street London SW1. My great grandfather Thomas Adams rented out rooms in this house and I was hoping that my grandfather, John William Murray (as named on my father's birth certificate), may have been lodging there. No such name appears on the census entry, but I saw your query from back in 2010 about a John William Murray. On my fathers birth certificate father is shown as John William Murray, electrical engineer. My grandmother was always secretive about the identity of my grandfather and I thought there is a possibility he could have been the maverick John William Murray referred to in your 2010 post. Please contact me if you can help?
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Hi, sorry but I don't think we have the same family. My Murrays all mainly came from the Holborn area or Clerkenwell area of London. Also my John William wasn't an electrical engineer.
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Every so often I try and trace my grandfather who was a mystery.
On my fathers birth certificate father is shown as John William Murray, electrical engineer.
My grandmother was always secretive about the identity of my grandfather
Hello and welcome :)
Can I ask did your grandparents marry? If so, do you know when & where?
On your father's birth certificate was it his mother who registered the birth?
This may have no connection to your Murray family but I thought I'd post there is a
John Murray(no middle name) on 1911c in London living with his married brother they are
both born in Scotland, John's occupation is an electrical engineer & brother occ Artist
1911c https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW26-WDH
Looking at his brother from 1911 census he married 19 Aug 1909 Rose Emily Petty, his occ Artist
father William Alexander ??nty Murray, occ cabinet maker
another marriage 1925 for a
Daisy Sproat Murray 26, father William Alexander Minty Murray, occ furnisher
one witness George Murray
John Murray is in Scotland in 1901 his occ cabinetmaker apprentice as is his father William they are living Beecroft, Blairgowrie, Perthshire, Scotland
William Alex Minty Murray Head 1849 Cabinetmaker apprentice Portsoy, Banffshire, Scotland
Margaret Ann Murray Wife 1862 - Portsoy, Banffshire, Scotland
JOHN Murray Son 1884 Cabinetmaker apprentice Portsoy, Banffshire, Scotland
Charlotte Elsie Murray Daughter 1886 Scholar Portsoy, Banffshire, Scotland
Francis Arnold Murray Son 1888 Scholar Blairgowrie, Perthshire, Scotland
David Wood Murray Son 1893 Scholar Blairgowrie, Perthshire, Scotland
Mary Jane Murray Daughter 1894 Scholar Blairgowrie, Perthshire, Scotland
Emma Brazier Murray Daughter 1896 Scholar Blairgowrie, Perthshire, Scotland
Daisy Spreat Murray Daughter 1899 Blairgowrie, Perthshire, Scotland
I was wondering if it might be a second marriage for William Alexander Minty Murray
as one son David has middle name Wood
William is a widower on 1891c looks as if he may have married Margaret Ann Wood
George Street, Blairgowrie, Perthshire, Scotland
William A M Murray Head Widower 1849 Cabinet maker & upholsterer Banffshire, Scotland
William G Murray Son Unmarried 1878 Scholar Banffshire, Scotland
Jessie Ann Murray Daughter - 1880 Scholar Banffshire, Scotland
John Murray Son - 1884 Scholar Banffshire, Scotland
Charlotte E Murray Daughter - 1886 Scholar Banffshire, Scotland
Francis A Murray Son - 1888 - Blairgowrie, Perthshire, Scotland
George Murray Uncle Unmarried 1809 Shoemaker (retired) Banffshire, Scotland
Maggie Ann Wood Servant Unmarried 1861 General serv (domestic) Banffshire, Scotland
from SP their marriage entry
MURRAY WILLIAM ALEXAND
WOOD MARGARET ANN
1892 168/1 7 St Nicholas
Looking at the birth entires on Scotland People there's not one for a John William Murray/William John Murray in Portsoy c1884, so probably a different John Murray to the one you are looking for
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There are numerous family trees for the family you have found, Ladyhawk www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/13039504/person/-124875639/facts (you need a subs to be able to view for those who can access).
This family seems to have moved down to England at some point after the 1901 census. Father William Alexander Minty Murray died on 30 Jan 1920 in Stratford-Upon-Avon, Warwickshire. The children seem to have been mostly based in the London and Midlands areas.
The John you found in 1911 with brother married in Bury, Lancashire in 1913 (Florence Lilian Smith). They show in 1939 with one child. John still showing as Electrical Power Engineer. He died I think in 1959 at the age of 76. Possible burial at Gorton Cemetery, Manchester.
This John could have been working in London or visiting his family and met your grandmother???
Monica
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What year was your grandmother born in?
Was there any address included for John William Murray on your father's birth registration?
Monica
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Every so often I try and trace my grandfather who was a mystery.
On my fathers birth certificate father is shown as John William Murray, electrical engineer.
My grandmother was always secretive about the identity of my grandfather
Hello and welcome :)
Can I ask did your grandparents marry? If so, do you know when & where?
On your father's birth certificate was it his mother who registered the birth?
Every so often I try and trace my grandfather who was a mystery.
My father who was born on May 3rd 1924 never knew him. I recently found the census details for the address where my grandmother lived in 1921. 140 Warwick Street London SW1.
What year was your grandmother born in?
Was there any address included for John William Murray on your father's birth registration?
murray165
You have not mentioned the names of your father or grandmother so I’m assuming you would prefer to keep their names private. I couldn't send you a personal message via Rootschat PM system as you need to make a couple of further posts to the thread.
You mentioned you have looked at the 1921 census and thought your Murray grandfather may have been renting a rooms from your Adams grandfather. You don't mention if you tried looking for a John William Murray elsewhere.
Using the advanced search on the latest census
surname Murray
First name John
occupation electrical engineer
county London,
Only one John Murray (no middle name) showing with occ electrical engineer he is
John Murray born 1884 Cheshire Parish Lambeth if you hoover over the record transcript
John, Ellen, Margaret & 9 others are on this record. Using the advanced criteria it would appear that
Ellen born 1888 Chelmsford Essex and Margaret born 1911 Chelmsford Essex
Further investigation of the above show birth Chelmsford Margaret Ellen Murray mmn is Parkhurst (GRO Indexes). More Murray children births registered in Chelmsford and then in Lambeth from 1912 - 1922 (mmn Parkhurst). An index of their 1910 marriage has a middle name of Glassford. On 1911c his occupation is an electrical engineer, married and a visitor in Devonport. So it's probable that you can rule this John Murray out ??? For info.... from the London Electoral Register
Year 1918 - 1927 their address 193 Casewick Road, Lambeth. Year 1931 Electoral Register Ellen is on her own 193 Casewick Road and from 1934 living
30 Lamberhurst Road, Ellen was a widow in 1939. John's death registered Dec 1928 Lambeth died age 42
Can give further details of censuses, baptisms, marriage index, children's names if you feel the information is relevant