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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: annafabulous on Wednesday 18 August 10 16:30 BST (UK)
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Hi there
I'm new to this kind of thing and I'm trying to find the history of Grand Central pub, 80 Oxford Road - owners, staff, births, marriages, deaths, accidents.... I'm finding it hard to find anything online that isn't modern reviews, just wondering if someone could point me in the right direction please?
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Hi & welcome, when do you want to know about the Rock pub? and who are you looking for in regards your relatives?
I can look on directories for you to see who owned/run the pub if you give me a year to work from or you can look at some directories your self on line ?
Check the trade directories on this link. Click here for Historical directories (http://www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/)
Migky ;)
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I'm actually trying to find out anything I can, from 2010 back as far as possible. I've just moved in and have been hearing ghost stories and want to see if I can find out about accidents or crimes or anything like that! Would also like to get some of the history on the websites, get it a wikipedia page, that kind of thing.
The current owner is Thomas O'Donaghue, I know it was called The Shady Lady before being Grand Central, but that's about all I have found out so far.
Thanks for your help & speedy reply!
Anna
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1929 directory has:
Mrs Margaret Barker
Beer retailer
80 Oxford street.
No pub called the Rock on there then?
1858 80 Oxford street
Benjamin Heap
Cabinet maker
No pub there then?
Will check other directories i have tomorrow for you.
Migky ;)
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Err! any chance of free beer if we turn up with your ghosts ;D
Sleep well :o (http://i35.tinypic.com/a10nwj.gif)
Migky ;)
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Found out that:
GC known as Beef & Barley. Photos from 1970. Steak House
GC known as Schooner Inn in 1971
And got two photos. You will be more than welcome to a pint on me if you find the ghosts for me! Haha :)
Oh, and the word 'rock' isn't in the title of the pub, it's literally just 'Grand Central'. It's currently operating as a rock/metal music pub/bar/venue though!
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Ok understood now with the pubs name ;D
Tiz gona be a hard pint to get this then ???
OH! by the way have you checked out Manchester library images for any photos of the pub?
Clicke for there website (http://images.manchester.gov.uk/index.php?session=pass)
Migky ;)
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Hi
In the 1960s it was called the oxford.
i know this i was a drayman who deiverd beer there
hope this helps
tsb
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Hi TSB
Wow that is brilliant, you are the only contact I have now with what the pub used to be like who saw it with their own eyes!!!
Can you tell me any more about the layout, the managers/owners names, or maybe anywhere I could find photos?
Thankyou
Anna
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Are we talking about the same pub TSB? not that i am saying you might have the wrong pub but?
Click here to see the Oxfrod pub 1920's (http://images.manchester.gov.uk/web/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=73570)
Click for The Oxford 1980's (http://images.manchester.gov.uk/web/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=73572)
Click here for the last phot (http://images.manchester.gov.uk/web/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=73571)
Say's that it was demolished 1980? Quoted from Manchester library image site " The Oxford, Oxford Street, Manchester (demolished 1980) "
Migky ;)
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There is a pub called The Oxford currently on Oxford Road (not Street) about 25 mins walk from Grand Central. I don't know how long that has been there though.
The surrounding buildings in the photos you sent don't seem to match up with what is currently around Grand Central, but I'll look into this, thanks!! ..... edit: just looked into this, I know it was called the Beef and Barley in 1970, so therefore I doubt it would have reverted back to its previous name, to then be demolished. Nice work, but don't think the photos match!
P.S, seeing as I have some names of people who were here, how can I look into their family & find out more about them? All ancestry websites want me to pay :(
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Beef and Barley, Wakefield Street/Oxford Street, City Manchester
Click here for the Beef & Barley Inn (http://images.manchester.gov.uk/web/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=74158)
Migky ;)
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;D Tis the way of the world, you wouldn't expect people to walk in to the pub and drink your beer for free now would you ( unless you are me :o ) but if you give us some names to work with we will try and find out what we can on them. That is as long as there are dead, not allowed to post anything on living people unless any one has the name and address of theperson who robed my sons home while he was away , well best not say what i would call them on here wise i get banned
Migky ;)
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I was going to look into the names you gave me in one of your previous posts!
You are definitely welcome to a pint on me :) I take it though that you are not living anywhere close!!!
Grrr this is sooo frustrating, I feel like I'm making such slow progress!
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Have you tried phoning Greater Manchester county records office to see if they have anything listed for the pub , the same for Manchester library ( up the street from you ) and the John Rylands library on deansgate?
Click for another Beef & Barley photo (http://images.manchester.gov.uk/web/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=74172)
Greater Manchester county records
56 Marshall Street
Manchester M4 5FU
0161 832 5284
archiveslocalstudies[at]manchester.gov.uk replace @ with [at] to stop spamming ( rootschat rule)
With age come pations ;D
Migky ;)
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I've got trips to the library planned, very excited about it!
A previous manager just told me that 'The building was 3 houses and got knocked into 1 building sometime after the war' so maybe it was The Oxford that's in the photos?!
1960 - The Oxford
1970 - Beef & Barley/A. Schooner Inn Steak House
19?? - The Shady Lady
19?? - Grand Central
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Sent you a private message you might find interesting ;D
Migky ;)
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Is this the pub in front of The Salisbury? I worked as a barmaid there in 1977/78 when a student at the then Mcr Poly. Oh happy days!!! I am sure the pub in front was called the Beef and Barley.
According to the landlord then, the Salisbury was also haunted.
cheers
M
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It is indeed the same pub and it's still going strong! Is there anything you can tell me about the Beef and Barley such as the names of the owners or managers or anything?
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I can't remember the name of the landlord then, but I do remember him coming over to have a drink with The S's landlord StJean Kelly. I left Mcr for Canada in 1978, so dont know what happened next but I will ask a friend, she will know, she worked there too.
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As part of the local history library is shut for renovation at Manchester library, you could take a wee trip over to Salford local history library as the have all the same Directories and you can look up every two years up to 1969 ( when the telephone book took over ) and see who was at 80 Oxford street.
Salford Local History Library Address Salford Museum and Art Gallery
Peel Park
The Crescent
Salford
M5 4WU
Telephone 0161 778 0814
Email local.history[at]salford.gov.uk
Migky ;)
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I can't tell you anything useful ::) other than I did go there once or twice when it was the Shady Lady, that would be sometime between 1977 and 1985.
I recall it was a very cramped place with low ceilings, it easily got overcrowded so that's why I didn't go there often. ooh another memory, Breakout and Space Invaders were on the machines, so that would make it late 70s perhaps?
Hope that jogs someone else's memory a bit better than I've jogged my own!
:) Barbara
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This might be of use if and when you do get in Manchester library?
Click for Manchester records (http://www.dswebhosting.info/Manchester/dserve.exe?&dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Site11&dsqCmd=show.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqPos=9&dsqSearch=((text)='public houses'))
Seems you are one shady lady Barbara :o that and playing about on Jacksons clay pit ;D
Migky ;)
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Grey cells are working.....
Between the Beef and Barley and The Shady Lady it was called the Cork and Screw.
In fact it was probably that when I worked at the Salisbury for 10months (77/78). May have been a brief incarnation. Probably became Shady Lady in 1979.
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Err! i hope the Guinness has improved since march ;D
Click here for pub review (http://pubs-of-manchester.blogspot.com/2010/03/42-grand-central-oxford-rd.html)
Migky ;)
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A little bit about one of the early landlords :(
Dayffd (David) Lewis and his wife Annie Elizabeth Lewis are buried together in Southern cemetery.
Church of England section. Grave number H 1830.
If you start a new post on the look ups section, asking if any one is willing to see if there is a headstone and photograph it for you, i am sure you will get some kind soul who will do anything for a freebie pint :o
Dafydd died age 71
buried 20th Feb 1926
His wife Annie Elizabeth Lewis in the same grave died ages 79 and was buried on 24th March 1949.
Migky ;)
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hi annafabulous
sorry i am late in repling istand corrected
i said it was called the oxford i was wrong,the oxford was faceing
the palace theater now pulled down.
before it was called the beef and barley it was the oxford bar
oxford street.hope this helps
tsb
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Thank you everyone for all your input, we all had a good chat about it last night after closing and scouted round the pub to see where the old entrances have been bricked over, and dug out an old photo of Oxford Street that was hanging on the wall in the corner. Quite spooky, especially after a few drinks!
Also, maybe my sums are wrong, but how can Dafyyd Lewis have been born in 1861, buried 1926 and died at the age of 71? Surely he must have died at 65?
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Well, go on then post us the picture so we can see it ;D
1913 & 1909 Directories has Mras Annie Elizabeth Lewis as Beer retailer
80 Oxford street , off ST peters square/Oxford road Chorltonon- Medlock.
Just found out that Dafydd (david) Lewis was a Vocalist when he died.
Migky ;)
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1891 Census
80 Oxford street.
Peter Bostock Head 55 Restaurant proprietor (coffee)
Hannah Bostock Wife 60
Francis Holt Servant 19
Source : RG12; Piece: 3238; Folio 10; Page 13; GSU roll: 6098348.
1901 Directory
80 Oxford street
Peter Bostock
Beer retailer
He must have applied for a change of use and for a license to sell alcohol?
Migky ;)
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Oohh that's another lead to follow isn't it. I've taken some photos of the image from the pub wall but it's fixed in a frame so the quality is bad. It's a perplexing photo, we can't make head or tail of it as it seems a building is blocking the main street, maybe it has been demolished? Anyway I will post it shortly & try my best to explain what's shown!
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Also, maybe my sums are wrong, but how can Dafyyd Lewis have been born in 1861, buried 1926 and died at the age of 71? Surely he must have died at 65?
It is only about 1861 for his birth and you would need to spend money to get his birth certificate with his exact birth date on
As for the age at death, well as poor old Dayfdd could not confirm to the registrar or the informant giving the information at the register office for his death certificate, again it is going to be about 71 years old at time of death. If you ever get into genealogy you will come across discrepancies like this a lot.
Migky ;)
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1881 Census
Peter Bostock 45 Eating house keeper
Hannah Bostock 55
Elizth.Ann Steen 16 domestic servant
Hannah Jervis 14 domestic servant
Source: RG11; Piece: 3990; Folio: 158; Page: 19; GSU roll: 1341952.
1883 Directory
Peter Bostock
Eating house keeper
80 Oxford street
ST. Peter's.
Migky ;)
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Oohh that's another lead to follow isn't it. I've taken some photos of the image from the pub wall but it's fixed in a frame so the quality is bad. It's a perplexing photo, we can't make head or tail of it as it seems a building is blocking the main street, maybe it has been demolished? Anyway I will post it shortly & try my best to explain what's shown!
Maybe bomb damage from the blitz of 1940? Oxford St was hit, there is a picture in the Luftwaffe Over Manchester book of the Bradford Dyers Association building in rubble. That was on the corner of Oxford St and Lower Mosley St.
Aren't we doing well! ;)
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1871 Census
80 Oxford street Shopkeeper- refreshment rooms
St. Peter's
Peter Bostock 35
Hannah Bostock 44
Source: RG10; Piece: 4039; Folio: 160; Page: 37; GSU roll: 846332.
Migky ;)
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1861 Census
80 Oxford street.
Peter Bostock 26 Eating house
Hannah Bostock 31
Ellen Salisbury 26 domestic servant
Theodore Kummant 22 boarder
Source: RG9; Piece: 2943; Folio: 97; Page: 36; GSU roll: 543053.
Migky ;)
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Peter Bostock married Hannah Blodwell June 1/4 1856 at Manchester Cathedral (formerly Manchester Collegiate Church).
It looks like she had been married before to a Mr Balls, who i take had died?
Migky ;)
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Correction on Hannah's maiden name it was Balls and she first married a Blodwell
BLODWELL William BALLS Hannah Manchester Cathedral Sept 1/4 1848 (formerly Manchester Collegiate Church )
Migky ;)
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Sorry I'm not too savvy with these quoting things - just been struggling with them, so:
Migky: "If you ever get into genealogy you will come across discrepancies like this a lot."
It's a really interesting hobby, I feel like a detective! It must be so frustrating sometimes though, but I feel like I'm going on a journey in a way, it's helping me make sense of my surroundings in a historical context & I didn't realise it would be so rewarding!
Barbara: "Aren't we doing well!"
We really are, I'm actually really touched at how helpful everyone is being. I wasn't expecting a response like this.
This photo is captioned 'Oxford St 1929'. I'm sorry for the quality. What I can't work out is whether the palace theatre is the building in the lower left hand corner (it says 'hippodrome' over the door) or the one in the centre left with 'Just A Kiss' written on a billboard.
The buildings in the distance blocking the end of the street confuse me, as if the palace theatre is on your left then Grand Central should be on the right, a little further down opposite the palace Hotel, and there should be no buildings blocking the road going off into the distance.
Also, there is a railway bridge where those buildings were. It may help to search the postcode on google streetview if this sound confusing, M1 5NH.
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oh-oh..
Manchester Times, Friday Dec 21, 1900
under a headline "The Beer Scare"
Peter Bostock of Oxford St was among several beer retailers summonsed for selling adulterated beer.
The whole article is too long to type out, but it seems there was an outbreak of 'peripheral neuritis' in the area, caused by arsenic poisoning that had been traced to arsenic found in brewing sugars. The Brewers Association ran some tests and concluded that the beer makers and sellers would be unaware that their ingredients were contaminated. The investigation was ongoing.
Vimto, anyone? ;D
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1855 Directory
80 Oxford street
St. Peter's
William Derbyshire
Eating house keeper
Migky ;)
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Images on the way... grr technology...
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So the place has been known for dodgy beer for a very long time then ;D
Sorry about that but just going of the review in March from the link on page 2.
Great find Barbara, wonder if any one died from the iffy beer then and has something to do with any ghost stories? :o
Or are the only spirits on the top shelf ::)
Migky ;)
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http://yfrog.com/j1photo0698sj
http://yfrog.com/ngphoto0699j
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OK think this might be me last two pennies worth for today?
1858 Directory
80 Oxford street, St. Peter's
William Blackburn
Dinning rooms
Migky ;)
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Well maybe not ;D
Just found Peter Bostock
Dinning rooms
80 Oxford street
1863 directory
Migky ;)
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Thankyou Migky! Just speaking to the regulars downstairs & figured out the picture, it's further up the road!
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Very good Mig... we only serve spirits ;D ;D
Anyway about your picture. The Hippodrome was pulled down in the 1930s. It was opposite Portland St, where the McDonalds is now. So if that is in the lower left, your picture is looking towards St Peters Square, not past GC and the Palace. So its a view toward St Peters Square before the Central Library was built.
Just looked at your images and I'm sure thats what it is. That is the Cenotaph in the distance. Just a Kiss is the Princes Theatre, became the Gaumont Cinema and then (oh joy) Romanovs and Rotters disco.
:) Barbara
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More dead bodies for you ;D
1861 Census
80 Oxford street.
Peter Bostock 26 Eating house
Hannah Bostock 31
Ellen Salisbury 26 domestic servant
Theodore Kummant 22 boarder
Source: RG9; Piece: 2943; Folio: 97; Page: 36; GSU roll: 543053.
Migky ;)
Found Peter Bostock & an Edward T Kummant buried in the same grave. Spooky or what.
After a phone call to a friend, who tells me Peter died age 68 and died at the 80 Oxford road address and was still a beer retailer. Buried 11th June 1904
Now Edward ( shame it wasn't an Alice as i know a song about that ;D ) who ever he turns out to be?
Edward buried 26th Sept 1904 and was a restaurant keeper in Didsbury.
Both buried in the same grave at Southern cemetery
Church of England section
Grave number C277
Migky ;)
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Think we've found our first ghost!!! :o ;D
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I found Hannah Bostock ;D
She died age 67 at the 80 Oxford road address to.
Buried in Southern cemetery on 28th Feb 1893
Church of England section.
Grave number C227
With in 6 months later Peter remarried.
Annie Cummant Mar 1/4 1894
At Manchester Cathedral (formerly Manchester Collegiate Church)
Found them on the 1901 at the 80 Oxford road address.
Peter Bostock 65
Annie Bostock 31
Florrie Oliver 16 Servent
Ida Paton 9 Nice
Fanny Stephenson 27 Servent
Source: RG13; Piece: 3747; Folio: 8; Page: 7.
Migky ;)
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He remarried an Annie Cummant... I wonder if that's just another spelling Kummant, and Annie was related to Edward - the restaurant owner in Didsbury?
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Could well be? As Edward seems to have been Polish you know what they are like for changing names to fit the English language.
Will look to see if Edward pops up as Cummant tomorrow if i have time?
Migky ;)
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That would be brilliant please :) :-*
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I've just put the story together and it all sounds very curious:
Hannah Balls married William Blodwell 1848
She then divorced(?) and married Peter Bostock in 1856
They moved to GC in 1861 with a boarder called Theodore Kummant (22) Hannah (31) Peter (26)
1900 The Beer Scare. Peter 64ish.
Hannah dies aged 67 at GC & buried in Southern Cemetery.
Peter remarries within 6 months, Annie Cummant (31!!! - gold digger!!!)
Peter Bostock dies aged 68 at GC & is buried in June. Edward T Kummant, a restaurant keeper, is buried with him in September.
I wonder if Annie was related to Theodore and Edward, or whether the T in Edward T Kummant's name stands for Theodore, and they are actually the same person!
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What an addictive thread...
Marriage 1863, Manchester Cathedral
Eliza BALLS
Theodor CUMMANT
So there are a whole lotta Balls ladies involved here!
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Was just going to add before reading your last post Anna, Theodore and Edward can both be shortened to Ted, so I think very possible that they could be the same person.
Anna Cummant might be Theodor and Eliza's daughter, her age fits in with their marriage. It would also explain how Peter and Theodor/Edward (if they are the same) ended up in the same grave - its her father and her husband
:) Barbara
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Think William Blodwell died March 1/4 1854.
Doesn't give an age for him.
Migky ;)
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I've re-edited my story including the updated information, so I think that makes more sense now. The too-close-for-comfort linked relationships aren't hugely dissimilar from the way things seem to work in the present day! Maybe a new theme that has survived the ages along with bad beer ;) :D
Hannah Balls married William Blodwell 1848
William Blodwell died 1854.
Hannah married Peter Bostock in 1856
They moved to GC in 1861 with a boarder called Theodore/Edward Cummant (22) Hannah (31) Peter (26)
Eliza Balls (Hannah's relative) marries Theodore/Edward Cummant at Manchester cathedral 1863
1900 The Beer Scare. Peter 64ish.
Hannah dies aged 67 at GC & buried in Southern Cemetery.
Peter remarries within 6 months, Annie Cummant ( Eliza and Theodore's daughter? 31)
Peter Bostock dies aged 68 at GC & is buried in June. Theodore/Edward, (a restaurant keeper by this point), is buried with him in September.
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...I think a trip to Southern Cemetery is on the cards soon also :D
Was speaking a regular today who has the old sign for The Shady Lady on the wall in his living room! How exciting! :D
The Shady Lady: Pub Sign
Painted by Clare Highton
Norman Hartley Signs LTD. Manchester.
ABS Moulded Panel
http://yfrog.com/ccpicture001wjj
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Brilliant thread, thanks especially annafabulous, Barbara and Mr Migky for such enthusiasm and investigation.
Oh and anna, your beer isn't bad... just a tad too cold! And real ale instead of smoothflow wouldn't go amiss ;)
Hope you don't mind that I've updated the GC entry on our Pubs of Manchester blog with info from here.
http://pubs-of-manchester.blogspot.com/2010/03/42-grand-central-oxford-rd.html
Cheers
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Hello & welcome Granata, I am still think there is a lot more to be found on this establishment yet.
Do you know where we should look for any licensees of this premises from the 1920's on?
By the way i love me Guinness cold but these days it plays havoc with me teeth ( well any cold drink does)
Also a lot of credit to Barbara, she always fills in the bits people tent to miss and normally turn out to be the important bits too.
Migky ;)
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Just remembered, i need to tempt Emms over to this thread she holds a copy of the 1954 Manchester & Salford Directory. So she can fill us in who had the place back then?
I will send her a PM and ask Emms to have a look at this thread.
Migky ;)
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Ooh a 1954 directory, that could come in very handy! ::)
Most of the info used on the blog is referenced from older directories, books on Manchester history (especially Neil Richardson's pub booklets), other websites and our own and readers' knowledge.
Unfortunately the B&B / GC is just outside the area covered in The Old Pubs of Hulme & Chorlton-on-Medlock by Bob Potts/Neil Richardson (1997). Clynes Vaults, Royal Brew Vaults and Lass O'Gowrie are featured and are/were just yards away.
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I have all thrre books of Neil Richardson's pubs in Salford ;D
Migky ;)
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Welcome to Rootschat Granata :D :D
I've gone off at a tangent now reading about this 'Beer Scare'!
If you search in google books for Manchester Beer Scare, you get quite a few hits that cover the incident, it was a big story at the time. Apparently 6000 people were affected and 70 people died. Most of the contaminated sugar was traced to a refiners in Liverpool and by a strange coincidence, the firm was called Bostock and Co :o
They feature on the Sugar Refiners historical database here
http://home.clara.net/mawer/sugarbbio.html
and seem to be an old established firm going back to the 18th century. Bostocks of Liverpool then took a firm in Leeds to court for supplying them with chemicals containing arsenic.
I don't think there is a connection between that firm and our Peter Bostock though. Peter shows up on the 1841 & 1851 census in C-on-M and Hulme, with his father John Bostock who is a grocer from Ireland.
Can't have done his trade much good though, having the same surname as the producers of the dodgy sugar!
:) Barbara
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Barbara, your a star. What great reseach :o
Migky ;)
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Great stuff Barbara, many thanks, I'll have a look on google books.
Migky: Pubs of Ancoats, Deansgate (Manchester Village), Little Italy, Ancoats Lad, etc. are all well worth a look too.
I've got all the Manchester ones if they can ever be of any help to anyone.
In fact the only one that Neil Richardson doesn't appear to have covered before he sadly passed away is central Manchester (and is none of the reasons we started the Pubs of Manchester blog... that and a valid excuse to have a regular pint in town ;) )
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Well here is some one looking for more help on one such pub ;D
Click here to help on this pub thread (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,469572.0.html)
Migky ;)
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Hi everyone. Wow you have all been so busy while I've been away!
No worries about the pub website Granata. However I'd quite like to wait till we have completed all our research before updating again - one big swoop rather than dribs and drabs! That way I can make sure all the leads have been followed before consolidating it all and making a cohesive history.
However some other things on there about the way the pub is today are pretty out of date so I'll write something more accurate later so you can make sure the whole thing is right :)
I still don't believe in ghosts, I think, but Peter Bostock does sound very much like one of the ghosts who have been reported here!
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Hi Migky
Hi All
Thank you I didn't need tempting. I just needed to get o0nline. Only on every couple of days now until mkine gets sorted. I'm on my sisters after a trip across the border. Just camer on to show her some family history stories!
Yes, I'll definitely look in the 1954 and see what other photo's there are.
Might be a couple of days though!
Thanks for the pm Migky!
Best wishes all.
Emms
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Hi Emms, good to see you back on here. Are you having trouble with your inter net connection or your PC?
Migky ;)
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Hi Mr Migky
Thank you!
A bit of both I think - and old age and overwork!
It should be sorted soon - partly needs some time & decisions from me!
Thank you anyway - Emms
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Pretty slow front on the revelations front today. Been poking around in the Subway trying to find old photos or anything that might point me in the right direction but no joy. Hoping tomorrow will be better!
So when're you all coming to visit me for super cold guiness? :P
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we'll be back in soon for a pint Anna
in fact we need to do a bar nearby in our quest - that new one on Charles Street - so we'll say hello and you can tell us your latest findings!
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My fella told me about a small room located off the cellar last night that was pretty spooky, I went down to investigate and the opening was tiny, only just big enough to fit through, and there seemed to be at least one room beyond. Wonder if I can get my hands on blueprints or room plans when I get to the library to find out what it was used for! Either it's a very boring storage room or a very exciting dungeon!!!! ;)
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Ooh, Time Team stuff!
Either it's a very boring storage room or a very exciting dungeon!!!! ;)
you could attract a whole new set of customers there! ;D
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Going way back - from the 1841 census, the landlord might have been a John Mitchell from Scotland.
its a bit hard to tell as the 1841 doesn't do the house numbers, but on Oxford St between Chepstow St and Gloucester St there is
John Mitchell, born 1796, Scotland, publican
Ellen Mitchell, b. 1811 Lancashire
Sarah Mitchell b. 1839 Lancashire
So it looks as if its always been a pub or an eating house.
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Hi
Seems like they were a bit ahead of their time by 1953 - in 1953, the entry for 80 Oxford St is:
Oxford Wine Bar,
proprietor a Mr Wright, I think!
Sorry, not at home so doing it from memory.
I forgot to bring the tome, seing I'm not at home - it was definitely Oxford Wine Bar though, with a Wright as I'm looking for some Wrights!
Best wishes
Emms
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Barbara, between Chepstow Street and Gloucester Street you'll pick up the Oxford Road Inn (aka Oxford Road Inn & Atlas Hotel) and the New Concert Inn. However, Grand Central is just south of Gloucester Street.
On the 1849 map shows the Salisbury (then known as the Tulloghgorum Vaults) on James Leigh Street, which is tucked behind Grand Central today. Where Grand Central is is 8 separate premises. The map's reverse records Thomas Lee in the New Concert Tavern and John Mitchell at the Oxford Road Inn & Atlas Hotel. Frustratingly it doesn't stretch as far as No.80 :(
The 1894 map doesn't show a "P.H." at the Grand Central location either; just them 8 separate premises.
Here is the 1849 map with the above pubs on:
(http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/3858/oxfordstreet.jpg)
1 = New Concert Inn
2 = Oxford Road Inn
3 = Tulloghgorum Vaults
Outline = Grand Central
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I was looking for a marriage record for St. Peter in Manchester last night and noticed the address 80 Oxford Street was listed more than a dozen times for the 1870's for various grooms and brides. Then I remembered reading this topic...
Some kind of Hostlery/Hotel?
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Manchester/Manchester/stpeter/index.html
The first marriage with 80 Oxford Street listed as a residence is 5 Mar 1873
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Aaah thanks for the link Footo I'll look into that now.
Granata can I just confirm that your findings mean that Barbara's findings from the 1841 census are for another pub? It's all very confusing. Thank you for the photo of the map.
It makes sense that the pub was split into 8.... there are a total of 13 rooms here now in varying sizes, mostly on the large size, but the set up of the rooms is lots of rooms heading off one long corridor that runs the length. It could easily be split into eight.
Also, I've still been talking to the oldies in the pub trying to get more info straight from the horses mouth. I've been hearing lots about The Shady Lady being a brothel... I don't know whether that's just gossip because it makes a good story or not, but certainly the name, the fact that the workingclass Irish navvies lived in the area, the sign (I posted a pic in a previous post) and the set up of the rooms upstairs means it wouldn't be too far a stretch of the imagination. I wonder...?
Hope everyone is having a good bank holiday:)
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Okay, the 1894 map shows 8 separate premises, right?
Other records have shown that the Bostocks were living there in this year, Peter approx 58 years old and Hannah 63. You'd assume they were living above in one of the 8 sections.
Which means maybe there were other residents in the other sections!
Also, I wonder if I can find out when the 8 sections were demolished and became 1. If you look at the picture of the property when it was the Beef and Barley....
http://images.manchester.gov.uk/web/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=74158
....maybe the entrance you can see right at the end of the pub, on the left hand side of the photo, was the entrance to upstairs accommodation. It certainly looks as though it could be. There is also a window to the right of the door which looks different to the rest of the ones on the pub itself, and you could argue they look more residential than public house.
In this case there must have been a staircase which is no longer there now!!!
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Sorry for the multiple posts today. Look what I found on the link Footo gave me!
Marriage: 2 Jan 1876 St Peter, Manchester, Lancashire, England
William Wood - full Labourer Bachelor of 80 Oxford St
Esther Hannah Bostock - full Servant Spinster of 80 Oxford St
Groom's Father: James Wood, Deceased
Bride's Father: John Bostock, Traveller
Witness: John Williams; Isabella Wood
Married by Banns by: Chas. F. Buckley
Notes: See no. 119 in the other Register Bk. [In When Married column]
Register: Marriages 1838 - 1906, Page 58, Entry 115
Source: LDS Film 2113151
In 1876 the Hannah Bostock we already know is about 49 and already married to Peter Bostock. I wonder if this is a sister? Odd to have the same middle name.
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I've done a bit of databasing and cross referencing on stuff on Footo's link and found out the following.
William James Hall is listed as marrying Susannah Carr in St Peters in 1877.
Marriage: 1 Oct 1877 St Peter, Manchester, Lancashire, England
William James Hall - full Milkman Bachelor of 80 Oxford St
Susannah Carr - (X), full Operative Spinster
Groom's Father: William Hall, Mechanic
Bride's Father: Henry Carr, Spin_ter
Witness: John Clegg; Mary Foley
Married by Banns by: C. F. Buckley
Register: Marriages 1838 - 1906, Page 73, Entry 145
Source: LDS Film 2113151
I've found the following burials listed under the name of Hall in St Peters and I'm trying to find out whether any of the following people are related to William so then I can begin a family tree for the Halls, even though Hall is obviously a common name. These would have been his ancestors not descendants.
Hall Age Year Alice Boyer 10 yrs. 1842 Betty 80 yrs. 1853 Elizabeth 64 1815 James 55 years 1820 Mary Elizabeth 44 years 1851 Mary 17 1797 Saml. 1813 Samuel 65 1813 Sarah 18 1797
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Manchester/Manchester/stpeter/index.html
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Same for Mellor. Thomas Mellow married Julia Ann Wooley in 1875.
Marriage: 18 May 1875 St Peter, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Thomas Mellor - full Grocer Bachelor of 80 Oxford St
Julia Ann Woolley - full Spinster of 80 Oxford St
Groom's Father: Thomas Mellor, Grocer
Bride's Father: William Woolley, Deceased
Witness: Henry Edward Elleby; Elizabeth Woolley
Married by Licence by: C. F. Buckley
Register: Marriages 1838 - 1906, Page 55, Entry 110
Source: LDS Film 2113151
The following are burials listed at St Peters with the name Mellor so same deal, trying to find out if they're related or not. They're also ancestors not descendants.
Mellor Ada 3 months 1853 Anne 67 yrs. 1841 Edith 7 months 1849 Thomas 69 years 1839
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Manchester/Manchester/stpeter/index.html
Considering how big Manchester is and how common these last names are I suppose it's unlikely they'll be related.
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Also, making a database of the surnames of all the people listed as marrying at St Peters, the following came up more than once which makes me think they're related as they're listed as living at 80 Oxford Street.
The names Taylor (Emily and Rebecca), Thompson (Harry and Sarah Ann) Jones (George and Samuel). Were they related?
Sorry that my posts are long. Wasn't sure how much info I should share. What a good way of spending my Sunday!
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Okay, the 1894 map shows 8 separate premises, right?
Also, I wonder if I can find out when the 8 sections were demolished and became 1. If you look at the picture of the property when it was the Beef and Barley....
I would think that the 8 properies would include "The Samaritans" who are next door to you.
There are 8 windows in total including next door - 1 for each dwelling?
Numbers 72- 86 look to be the row of 8...
This is taken from the Manchester 1911 Street/Trade Directory
68 Oxford St - Dingley’s Ltd - fruiterers
St.Mary’s hospital for women and children (side entrance)
...Here is Whitworth Street West...
:Station Approach:
2 Salt Thomas & Co Ltd (Burton on Trent) brewers William O’Hamlin Agent...
4 Whitworth Benjamin, tobacconist
6 Wilkes Frank Cecil, banjo manufacturer
Manchester South Junction & Altrincham Railway Station (Wm Atkins, Station Master)
Spiers & Pond Ltd, refreshment contractors
72 & 74 Oxford St - Marshall William, cutler
76 Oxford St - Bellwood & Ellis, tailors
78 Oxford St - Jennings James, tobacconist
80 Oxford St - Lewis Mrs Annie Elizabeth, beer retailer
82 Oxford St - Otley Henry, saw maker
84 Oxford St - Hardy Joseph, hairdresser
86 Oxford St -Wilson Bannister, carver & gilder
......Here is Wakefield Street......
......Here is New Wakefield Street..........
88 Oxford St - Reuter Mrs Sarah, restaurant proprietor
90,92,&94 Oxford St - Hume William A, wig maker
92a Oxford St - Furniss James, plumber
........Here is River Medlock.......
It must be past my bed time now as I'm thinking of Joseph Hardy being a demon barber... ;D
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Also, I've still been talking to the oldies in the pub trying to get more info straight from the horses mouth. I've been hearing lots about The Shady Lady being a brothel...
Eek! that wasn't why me and mates went there in the 70s/80s, whenever it was - honest!
We just went to the bar & had a drink! :) :)
Back to Granata's last post: Granata was right & I was mistaken about James Mitchell being landlord at no.80 in 1841. He was at the other one, the Oxford Road Inn.
I have the same map that Granata has printed there, and on the back, as you say Granata, is a section of directory from around 1848 (courtesy of Chris Makepiece, the author of the history article on the back of the map). It goes
Oxford Road Inn/Atlas Hotel - Mitchell James
30 Gardner, Jos, stained glass mfr
34 Byrne, Hugh, cutler
36 Somers, Thos, cabinet maker
38 Furniss, James, ivory turner, also
Bennett, James, painter
44 Alsop, thomas, provision dealer
46 Halliwell, Jessop, shopkeeper
48 Corless, John, furniture broker, also
Gibb, Wm, wine & spirit merchant
Oxford Rd Distillery (between the railway line and the river)
So I think those were the eight properties as they were in the late 1840s, and our no. 80 was at that time no. 48. Numbers would have changed as more buildings went up along the road.
Sorry to go backwards in time yet again, we're zipping about all over the place here. I thought I had posted this already, but one of the ghosts must have deleted it ;D
:) Barbara
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There is a pdf document here of "Little Ireland" showing on the last page the same map image from 1849 - if you enlarge it you can see the bay windows for the 8 properties that make up "Grand Central."
http://www.mangeogsoc.org.uk/egm/3_1.pdf
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Migky where did you find this evidence?
A little bit about one of the early landlords :(
Dayffd (David) Lewis and his wife Annie Elizabeth Lewis are buried together in Southern cemetery.
Church of England section. Grave number H 1830.
If you start a new post on the look ups section, asking if any one is willing to see if there is a headstone and photograph it for you, i am sure you will get some kind soul who will do anything for a freebie pint :o
Dafydd died age 71
buried 20th Feb 1926
His wife Annie Elizabeth Lewis in the same grave died ages 79 and was buried on 24th March 1949.
Migky ;)
I'm working on a wikipedia page right now :)
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Oh & PS Granata please can I have your permission to include the image of the map you posted on the wiki page?
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Yeah so long as you credit Alan Godfrey Maps (1849) yak yak
Or I'll drop the map off at the pub whenever suits
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I'll credit it if that's okay, it's easier that way. Thank you!
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Migky where did you find this evidence?
A little bit about one of the early landlords :(
Dayffd (David) Lewis and his wife Annie Elizabeth Lewis are buried together in Southern cemetery.
Church of England section. Grave number H 1830.
If you start a new post on the look ups section, asking if any one is willing to see if there is a headstone and photograph it for you, i am sure you will get some kind soul who will do anything for a freebie pint :o
Dafydd died age 71
buried 20th Feb 1926
His wife Annie Elizabeth Lewis in the same grave died ages 79 and was buried on 24th March 1949.
Migky ;)
I'm working on a wikipedia page right now :)
You can verify that information from Manchester burial web site or you can go to greater Manchester county records and also at the library once it opens again.
Migky ;)
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I'm looking on Manchester City Council burial records database & not finding anything there?
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I'm just asking because we're going to the Southern Cemetery tomorrow to find the graves of 80 Oxford Street residents to see if we can find any more clues, so trying to make a list of those graves we need to visit :)
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Been researching tonight. On the St Peters marriages site I found a James Cullen married a Mary Wrigley in 1872. The Manchester's burial search page shows there is a James and Mary Cullen buried together, next to a Harriet Wrigley (I assume she's a relative) in Southern Cemetery. I'm going to find them, the Bostocks and the Lewis' tomorrow.
Will post pics as follows. Can you put photos of graves on here? Might take a snap of me as a detective with my notepad, big camera and torch. 8)
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You've caught the grave hunting bug all right! ;D
look forward to the pics - there is a minimum 500kb size requirement, a reminder will pop up when you hit the 'attach photo' option.
Best of luck
:) Barbara
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Here are my photos from today!
http://s557.photobucket.com/albums/ss13/annafabulousxo/Southern%20Cemetery/
There is the Bostock grave and the Cullen grave among those. The Cullens were buried with a Roland Cullen...
'Royal Welsh Fusilier, who gave his life for his country in Flanders. July 29th 1917 aged 31years.'
I'm gonna see if I can find out more about him online, there's gotta be records of him in some army records somewhere.
It was a super cool day. I went with my boyfriend and my best friend. Finding the graves was so exciting. I felt like a real detective 8)
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Brilliant Anna! :D
I'm sure Migky will be able to help find something out about Roland Cullen. Start here, at the War Graves search site:
http://www.cwgc.org/debt_of_honour.asp?menuid=14
Looks like he was buried abroad and the gravestone at Southern is in memory of him.
A million years ago I was an art student at the Poly (as it used to be), & we went drawing the memorials at Southern Cemetery; that was ages before I got into family history ::). I'm sure I did a woodcut of one of those angels.
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Here is Roland's CWGC grave.
Click for Roland's grave (http://www.findagrave.com/photos/2006/43/11556182_113985040545.jpg)
Migky ;)
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Roland Cullen married Ethel Rose March 1/4 1908 at ST. George, Hyde. Tameside , Cheshire.
Had a son born Leslie Stuart Cullen Dec 1/4 1908 Bredbury Stockport.
Ronald was born in Longsight Manchester.and enlisted in the army there. He was awarded the Victory medal and the British medal but not the 14/15 start, so suggest he did not join the army till 1916 or later?
It states he residence as Hyde at the time he enlisted but know he was living at 106 Taylor street Stretford from around 1910ish.
Will look for more on him.
Migky ;)
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Leslie Stuart Cullen Married Rose Pullin Bamford Sept 1/4 1936 Manchester.
Leslie and his wife Rose are buried together in Southern cemetery
Church of England section, grave number LL 1932.
Leslie buried 19th July 1988 & Rose 26th June 1986.
I can't look for any children as they may still be alive and against R/C policy.
Looks like back to the cemetery for you again ;D
Migky ;)
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1891 census
42 Park Avenue
James Cullen 43 Head
Mary Cullen 42 Wife
James B Cullen 16
Edith B Cullen 12
John N Cullen 8
Roland Cullen 5
Dorothy M Cullen 9/12
Elizabeth Wrigley 73 Mother-in-law
Annie Wrigley 34 sister-in-law
Class: RG12; Piece: 3173; Folio 96; Page 3; GSU roll: 6098283
Migky ;)
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1901 he seems to be in some sort of Orphanage/ School?
Manchester Warehouseman and Clerks Orphan School
His occupation befor joining the army is shown as Clerk.
Class: RG13; Piece: 3301; Folio: 51; Page: 5.
Migky ;)
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His army service record have him Living 156 Gt Roxbury Street, Hyde Cheshire in 1915.
He also had three more children.
Harold Roy Cullen born 15th May 1911
Dorothy Mary born 6th Feb 1915.
Elsie Ann Cullen born 3rd Jan 1917
Found out he first joined up 1st Dec 1915.
Migky ;)
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Harold Roy Cullen married Phyllis Bertwistle at St George, Hyde. Tameside 1939.
Elsie Ann Cullen Married Raymond Ernest Giles at st George, Hyde. Tameside 1941
Dorothy married Leslie Wragg at St Lawrence, Denton. Tameside 1947
Migky ;)
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Thanks Migky and Barbara. The Wikipedia article (the first draft at least) is now up! Search Grand Central Pub. Any feedback is hugely appreciated, good or bad :)
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I tried looking on wikipedia.org for "Grand Central Pub" but nothing seemed to come up? It might be me but could you post the link to it?
Migky ;)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Central_Pub
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Ta MancsMan, it was there this morning when i checked?
Migky ;)
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It's been playing up for other people too, I guess because it's a new article. Hope it's working now?
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I've just accessed it thru Mancsman's link there :D
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Just a quick addition. I worked at the NCC Oxford road, next to the bbc, 1988-89 & remember going into the pub then (it was around the time all day drinking first came in i.e not shutting at 3pm til 7pm). Place was usually empty but the landlord was an obliging chap (mike i think?) & he'd either cash a cheque for you (with guarantee card) or at least let you have a couple on tick. The pub was called The Oxfords then. The one in the picture on here is where the Italian restraunt is now, next to the canal & closer to Jillys. Hope this helps & it might jog a few more peoples memories.
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Btw, top page! I went to Sound Control last friday to see Jim Jones & directed everyone to the shady lady for drinks before hand!! & no one could find it!!! Suggestion for the nextpage: Tommy Ducks??? ;)
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1911 Census.80 Oxford St Manchester
Lewis,David Dafydd married 50 Beer and wine retailer born Abergavenny
Lewis,Annie wife married 6 years 40 Assisting in the business born Hedge Lane Droylesden
Lewis,Arthur son 8 born 10 Oxford St Manchester
Lewis,Mabel daughter 1 born 80 Oxford St Manchester
Browne,Margaratta barmaid single 25 born CountyDerry Ireland Resident
Andy
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This thread is quite old now but I just stumbled on it by accident (searching for ancestors and found my Benjamin Heap on page 1 of the thread, a cabinet maker at this address in 1850's..... who is very incidental to the rest of the story)
Anyway, wanted to thank all of those involved for the research ..... what a great read!
Amazing how you can get hooked into a good story even if it is not one that you have a direct interest in.
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Don't know if it's been mentioned or is of any use but this pub was also called 'Oxfords' in the mid-late 1980's. I started drinking in there when I was 16 in 1987 and I remember it looked really trendy and brightly painted inside and was always full on Friday nights, the decor and colour scheme was typical 80's-era pale pink, sky blue and grey with matching upholstery and carpet and pink and blue neon lights on the widows if I remember rightly. I really liked it in there. There was a CD jukebox at one end of the bar and there was a staircase at the other end leading to a downstairs room where there were pool tables (I think that basement area later became Subway in 90's). :)
Rob