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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: Noandra on Tuesday 17 August 10 05:35 BST (UK)
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Could someone help me please, I am trying to find out more on parents and siblings of Robert Brydon RATTRAY b 1838 in Edinburgh, he marrried Sarah BEATTIE b abt 1838 - Married on 20-11-1859 at Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian.
They had 2 children Robert Beattie (may be Bryden) Rattray b 1850 Midlothian & Charles Rattray b 1860 Midlothian.
I believe Sarah Beattie's parents were Robert Beattie and Mary (unknown). I do not know who Robert Brydon Rattray's parents were.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Hello
Not able to help here unfortunately other than to highlight as you may know that this is an 'extracted record' on the IGI- no birth on IGI shows, which means you'll have to source a copy from the official govt website at:
www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk Min spend £6.00 buys 30 credits which allows for the download of up to 5 bmds or copies of census records. Costs 6 credits for 1 download. Entry will give names of both, addresses and cccupations of both and will gve both parents names and mothers maiden name. Witnessesare sometimes family members.
Am curently out of credits and can't access downloads from where I currently am.
Good luck. Steve :)
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Hi, Piglet, thanks for the offer, I would try that, but being in Australia it is a bit difficult getting the credits from dollar to pounds. I guess I will have to try some other way.
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Hello Noandra
No problems, please refer to my personal message sent.
As Robert Rattray had the middle name of Brydon, it makes life much easier to do searches on the IGI at www.familysearch.org.uk
On the IGI, I find 4 children born to a Robert Brydon Rattray and Sarah Beattie - 'extracted' which means they are taken from the records. All born Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian.
Go check and download.
Charles Rattray b. 17 Apr, 1860
Mary Beattie Rattray b. 26 June 1863,
Robert Beattie Rattray b. 06 Aug 1867
John Beattie Rattray 16 June 1870
Please note: Born to a Robert Rattray and a Sarah Beattie is a Robert Beattie Rattray b. 21 Apr 1865 - also in Edinburgh Parish. I'm sure he's one of 'yours' to the above couple. A free search on Scotlands People shows that in all of Scotland 1855 to 2006 there is only 1 Robert Beattie Rattray dying. He dies in 1866. I'd assume that following his death another male child was born and given the same name. I assume the other RB Rattray emigrated?
Are there any souls out there who can provide census records for this family in the 1871 - or had they emigrated by then?
Regards, Steve :)
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Thanks so much for your help.
Something seems wrong, perhaps it is in my records. I have Robert Brydon Rattray married to Sarah Beattie on 29-11-1859. Then their son Robert Brydon Bryden Rattray was born in 1850 - 9 years before their marrage. I have no proof of birth data though so the Robert Beattie Rattray b. 21 Apr 1865 could be one and the same, except he is 6 years younger. I will have to see if I can find proof to link them.
R B Rattray emmigrated to Australia onboard the ship "Wodong" Brisbane to Sydney 8-5-1916 - Ancestry.com, I will have to double check to see if this is the right one.
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No problems
What you need to do is to work back from what is definitely known. What is the name of the man who dies is Australia whom you are working back from?
Is it a Robert Brydon or a Robert Beattie - if a death entry gives his parents as Robert Brydon Rattray and Sarah Beattie - he's the Robert Beattie Rattray who was born in on 06 Aug 1867. Remember the first Robert Beattie Rattray dies in 1866.
At the very least you also need to work forward with this family in the census records - if you think he was born in 1850 which I doubt, the 1861 census should have 2 Roberts with the family, it'll give their ages and will solve the conundrum.
Good luck.
Regards, Steve
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Hi Steve,
I did not see your message till now sorry,
I have been doing some searching here. and found
on Family Search -
Robert Brydon Rattray b 11-5-1891 Qld died 28-2-1847 Father Charles, Mother Mary Fenwick
Qld BDM records show
Births for Charles Rattray and Mary Fenwick
Robert Brydone 1891
Charles Beattie Dunlop 1889
James Fenwick 1894
Marriage of Charles and Mary Fenwich in 1888 Queensland
Death of Charles Brydone Rattray 1946 - Father Robert Brydone and Mother Sarah Beattie.
So that is Charles b 1860 (his 2nd name changes)
Brother Robert b 1850 is married to
(1)Augusta Mary Willsher b 1855 Botley - 2 children (and you guessed it one was a Robert Beattie b 1898 )
(2) Alice Baldwin marriage 2nd marriage confirmed Qld BDM 1906. 9 children (and one is Robert Bryden b 1920 )
That is what I have so far but still not much on Robert and Sarah except what you have found.
I will have to go through all that closely tomorrow - thanks so much for your help.
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So, to clarify to others who may help with census records.
You are following back through a:
Charles Rattray b. 17 Apr, 1860 who marries a Mary Fenwick in Queensland in 1888. So we look for UK census records for '61, 71, and 81.
He dies in 1946 as Charles Brydone Rattray giving his parents as Robert Brydon Rattray and Sarah Beattie. (do you have any death info for the Robert and Sarah? Only one Sarah Rattray other name Beattie dies in Scotland 1855 to 2006).
(As I said, I'll get hold of that birth entry - when home (currently offshore and can't access certain databases.) Even if he added the middle name himself - it's not an issue - I've a case of someone in my wifes line doing that and I've no idea where the name came from - in your case you do - his dad.
I won't post any more messages on this thread - hopefully others can contribute?
Regards, Steve :)
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Hi,
So, to clarify to others who may help with census records.
You are following back through a:
Charles Rattray b. 17 Apr, 1860 who marries a Mary Fenwick in Queensland in 1888. So we look for UK census records for '61, 71, and 81.
He dies in 1946 as Charles Brydone Rattray giving his parents as Robert Brydon Rattray and Sarah Beattie. (do you have any death info for the Robert and Sarah? Only one Sarah Rattray other name Beattie dies in Scotland 1855 to 2006).
I want to know about Charles but also his brother Robert (direct ancestor)
Brother Robert b 1850 is married to
(1)Augusta Mary Willsher b 1855 Botley - 2 children (and you guessed it one was a Robert Beattie b 1898 )
(2) Alice Baldwin marriage 2nd marriage confirmed Qld BDM 1906. 9 children (and one is Robert Bryden b 1920 )
"I am trying to find Robert Brydon Rattray and Sarah Beattie, Robert and Charles parents... "
Sorry I have no death records for Robert and Sarah. A brick wall for Robert.
Sarah's parent's were Robert Beattie and Mary, no other details.
Noandra
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1861 census:
37 Candlemaker Row, Edinburgh
Mary Beattie 57
Sarah Beattie 23
Robt B Rattray 23
Charles Rattray 11 Mo
Andrew Callander 64
Elizabeth Oliphant 51
James Johnston 29
1871 census:
37 Candlemaker Row
Robert B Rattray 33
Sarah Rattray 33
Charles Rattray 10
Mary Rattray 6
Robert Rattray 3
John Rattray 9mo
Mary Liotta 68
John Mclane 8
Jessie Campbell 39
William Campbell 13
There is also a record for a Charles Rattray age 25, in the Queensalnd, Australia Passenger Lists 1848 - 1912 listed as a passenger on the ship 'Kincardineshire'
Port of Departure: Glasgow, Scotland
Port of Arrival: Brisbane
Arrival Date: 10 Nov 1883
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1881 census for Robert & Sarah
109 Causewayside
Robert Brydon Ratteray 43
Sarah Ratteray 43
Mary Ratteray 17
Robert Ratteray 13
John Ratteray 10
Elizabeth Ratteray 5
Helen Ratteray 2
1891 census
216 George St Aberdeen
Robert B Rattray 52
Sarah B Rattray 52
Mary Rattray 27
John Rattray 19
Lizzie Rattray 14
Helen Rattray 11
1901 - they have moved to Aberdeen!
16 Bonaccord Lane
Robert B Rattray 62
Sarah Rattray 63
Mary Rattray 37
Elizabeth Rattray 25
Helen Rattray 22
Williamina Irebster 7
Sarah's death entry is listed as 1903 in Aberdeen
Robert died 2 Aug 1910 at 49 St Nicholas Street, Aberdeen. His parents are listed as William Rattray (occupation Hatter) and Elizabeth Rattray (nee Bryden).
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There is a Charles Rattray listed as a visitor on the 1881 census here:
Charles Rattray age 23 Visitor b Edinburgh
29 Campfield St Falkirk
Watchmaker
Alexander Hay 29
Margaret Hay 26
Maggie Hay 5
Catherine Hay 4
William Hay 2
Jane Hay 2 Mo
Charles Rattray 23
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Hi,
So, to clarify to others who may help with census records.
You are following back through a:
Charles Rattray b. 17 Apr, 1860 who marries a Mary Fenwick in Queensland in 1888. So we look for UK census records for '61, 71, and 81.
He dies in 1946 as Charles Brydone Rattray giving his parents as Robert Brydon Rattray and Sarah Beattie. (do you have any death info for the Robert and Sarah? Only one Sarah Rattray other name Beattie dies in Scotland 1855 to 2006).
I want to know about Charles but also his brother Robert (direct ancestor)
Brother Robert b 1850 is married to
(1)Augusta Mary Willsher b 1855 Botley - 2 children (and you guessed it one was a Robert Beattie b 1898 )
(2) Alice Baldwin marriage 2nd marriage confirmed Qld BDM 1906. 9 children (and one is Robert Bryden b 1920 )
"I am trying to find Robert Brydon Rattray and Sarah Beattie, Robert and Charles parents... "
Sorry I have no death records for Robert and Sarah. A brick wall for Robert.
Sarah's parent's were Robert Beattie and Mary, no other details.
Noandra
Noandra
The census entires would suggest Charles' brother Robert was born later than 1850, as Piglet suggested. There are two birth entries listed for a Robert Beattie Rattray in St. Giles, Edinburgh - 1865 and another one 1867. It could be that the Robert born in 1865 died and another son was born and re-named Robert Beattie Rattray, once again as Piglet has already suggested. I don't have enough credits to look at either of the certificates to confirm the parents' names, but it looks likely the parents will be Robert and Sarah.
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Could this be father to Charles & Robert - Robert Brydon Rattray on the 1851 census living with his mother Elizabeth (Brydon)?
1851 census
Robert Rattray
Age: 13 b Edinburgh
Elizabeth Rattray 48
Robert Rattray 13
William Rattray 11
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Noandra
Further to my post re Robert's year of birth possibly not being 1850. I also see you have suggested he was married twice - first wife being Augusta?
I have been looking into the second marriage to Alice Maud Mary Baldwin - her mother is stated as Augusta Mary Willshire. Alice was born to William Balwdin and Augusta on 7 Feb 1884 in Queensland. She marries a Robert Brydon Rattray on 20 Jan 1906 and dies 30 Nov 1934.
Perhaps your information that he was married to Augusta is wrong?
Edit:
Ok it would seem Augusta did marry William Baldwin, then a Robert Rattray. But the Robert Rattray that married Alice - it can't be the same Robert or that would mean he married his step daughter??? Could it be that the Robert Rattray that married Alice was a son of Charles Rattray and Mary Fenwick?
hmmmm...this is becoming very confusing :-\
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Hi Jokdy,
Thanks so much for the census information.
The Rattray, Willsher, Baldwin part in Aust is very confusing.
Robert Rattray b 1850? had an affair with Augusta Willsher (I don't think they ever married) and had 2 children Robert Rattray 1898 (died 12mths old) and William 1896 He then married Alice Baldwin b 1884 she was 22,(stepdaughter) daughter of William Baldwin and Augusta Willsher & had 9 children.
I think that is the way it went, a few skeletons in the cupboard in this family. :-[
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Aaah! It all makes sense now, thanks for enlightening me. Wouldn't worry about the skeletons - I've come across a couple myself while delving into the branches of my tree ;D
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Jokdy,
Through your kind help I have established that Robert Rattray b 1838 parents were William and Elizabeth Bryden, I have looked but cannot find any more on this couple, do you mind seeing if you can?
Robert died 2 Aug 1910 at 49 St Nicholas Street, Aberdeen. His parents are listed as William Rattray (occupation Hatter) and Elizabeth Rattray (nee Bryden). ???
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Hi Noandra
It would seem Robert's son John, the informant on Robert's death certificate got Robert's father's details wrong!
Robert's father was in fact Charles Rattray not William. I have been able to confirm this with Robert and Sarah's marriage details.
So parents are Charles Rattray and Elizabeth Bryden.
Charles died 7 March 1842, aged 34. It says cause of death "Inflamation". He was living at 86 Candlemaker Row, Edinburgh. It says he was a mason, which is also stated on Robert and Sarah's marriage certificate.
Elizabeth died 1874, aged 72, of old age. She was living at 151 Pleasance, Edinburgh. Her parents are listed as Robert Bryden (a tailor) and Elizabeth Fraser.
Charles and Elizabeth were married Dec 4th 1830 in Fala & Soutra, Midlothian.
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Thanks, so much, I don't know where you get the information from but you are great.
This has taken the family back another generation. Wonderful.
Noandra.
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You're welcome :)
I've been able to find them on the 1841 census hoorah! I was having problems then thought perhaps Rattray had been spelled wrong and here we are...
It's them - Charles is down as a mason and living at Candlemaker Row as per his death entry in 1842. Looks like there's another brother for Robert and William.
Name: Charles Rathay
Age: 33
Estimated birth year: abt 1808
Gender: Male
Where born: Scotland
Civil parish: Edinburgh Greyfriars
County: Midlothian
Address: Candle Maker Row
Occupation: Mason J
Parish Number: 685/1
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Charles Rathay 33
Elisabeth Rathay 38
John Rathay 5
Robert Rathay 3
William B Rathay 1
Edit: Just looked up John, he died 16 Mar 1850 from a fever. They were living at 12 Rose Street in Edinburgh. This ties in with the 1851 census for Elizabeth, Robert and William I posted previously, which shows "12" in the address field.
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Hi Jokdy, I have stumbled on this site and realized you were talking about my grandparents, Alice Maud Mary Rattray nee Baldwin and Robert Bryden Rattray, they lived in Towoomba Queensland Aust. when my father was taken into state care at the age of 7 this would have been in 1927. He never saw his parents again, Alice & Robert had 8 children only 2 are still alive. My dad is Robert Bryden Rattray as well he has turned 90 this year. I have photos of thier headstones, Alice actually died on the 27th November 1934 aged 50, and my dad a few years ago now had a headstone put on his fathers grave, he died on the 6th November 1943 aged 76. This linage of Rattrays will end with my father as he had no sons but 4 daughters. I am very sad to say my father is in pallative care not expected to last the week. There are certainly a few skeletons in the family tree, it is known that Robert had an affair with Alice Maud's mother and had a baby but passed it off to her daughter Alice and made her marry the much older Robert Bryden Rattray, so I start my journey. Thank you for making my search for information much easier. Regards Trish
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Hello Trish
I'm sorry to hear the sad news about your father. Oh my, 90 years old is a fine age to live to is it not? What a life he must have led.
The member who was seeking information about this family - Noandra - could be connected to you and may have further information which could help you in your research. If you make another two posts you will be able to send Noandra a private message.
Jo
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Thanks Jo... I would be interested in what relationship Noandra has with the family. Trish
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Hello I just came across this site by accident and I am so glad I found this thread after discovering some new family history tonight, been up all night with it.
Robert Bryden Rattray and Sarah Beattie Rattray of Edinburgh/Aberdeen are my Great Great Great Grandparents through Mary Rattray my great great grandmother, Mary (laterly named Marshall) is buried with my great grandmother and grandmother in Aberdeen, although she had my great grandmother (Willamina Webster Milne) to a William Milne Webster before she married Marshall.
I would really like to make contact with anyone who is related or has more information concerning the family.
There was "Aunty Letty" from Aberdeen who my mother tells me was Mary's sister and gave name to my mother "Violetta", this information may well be inaccurate as I can remember Letty when I was a child 30 years ago.
I must go and swat up on all these comments you all have wrote.
Please get in touch, I look forward to hearing from you,
Christopher Gordon.
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Sarah Beattie Rattray died on 10th Nov 1903 at 5:40pm of chronic bronchitis at 40 Rose Street. Aberdeen.
Her parents were Robert Beattie (Army pensioner-deceased) and Eleanor McKay Beattie, possible maiden name "Andrew" who was also deceased.
I have adresses for The Rattrays living in edinburgh, when they married in 1859 it was 20 Cowgatehead. Edinburgh. Which is at the bottom of Candlemaker Row, which backs on to Greyfriars church and it was at the exact timing of the Greyfriars Bobby story 1858-1872, they must have been familiar with the man "Auld Jock Gray" and his dog Bobby.
Can you see now why I haven't slept a wink all night, its now 6:27am and I am still going hahaha
Christopher Gordon.
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Robert and Sarah Rattray also had another wee boy the that died at 10 months old of "convulsions, teething" 21 April 1865 - 5th March 1866 called Robert Beattie Rattray, a year later on 6th August 1867 they had another boy and called him Robert Beattie Rattray too.
Sarah and Robert Rattray were married just around the corner from where they lived, on 9 Victoria road. Edinburgh. in St.Johns Free Church, not to be confused with the other St.Johns episcopal church on Princes Street.
The church they gor married in became an indian restaurant and burned down in 2008, not sure if its back up and running again.
Christopher Gordon>
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Did you notice there was an aussie bar on Candlemakers Row? I think thats a sign ;)
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So we have Robert Beattie who is dead by the time Sarah marries Robert Brydon Rattray in 1859, Sarahs mother Mary Eleanor McKay Beattie is alive for the 1861 in her 50s but dead by the 1871 as she does not appear in the Census for 37 Candlemakers Row.
I am wondering why Robert and Sarah are registered at 37 Candlemakers Row in 1861 when they had registered their abode as 20 Cowgatehead on their marriage certificate in 1859? These properties are less than 100 yards apart I would say, checkout google earth street view, doesn't let you up Candlemakers Rowso good but you get the idea.
Christopher Gordon.
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Robert Bryden Rattray died aged 72 on 2nd Aug 1910 of influenza and suffering pnuemonia for 6 days at 119 St.Nicholas Street. Aberdeen.
He was a master of lapidary and a journeyman, basically I am told this is a travelling artisan jeweler and repairer of delicate objects.
His parents were William Rattray possibly a hatter- Deceased and Elizabeth Rattray maiden name Bryden- Deceased.
The death certificate was signed by John B Rattray his son of 75 Whitehall Road. Aberdeen.
Christopher Gordon.
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Jokdy, I noticed that you wrote this a while back.....
16 Bonaccord Lane
Robert B Rattray 62
Sarah Rattray 63
Mary Rattray 37
Elizabeth Rattray 25
Helen Rattray 22
Williamina Irebster 7
For the 1901 census.....
I have some news :) "Williamina Irebster" is actually Williamina Webster, the illegitimate daughter of Mary Rattray and a man by the name of William Milne Webster, she dies in her 40s and is buried with my granny and great great granny Mary Rattray Marshall, this is where my line shoots off :)
Christopher Gordon.
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Where are you getting the Robert Rattray that was born "1850?" thats either been married or had an affair, the only ones I know of are Robert Bryden Rattray (22) who was married to Sarah Beattie (21) in 1859 in Edinburgh, who is the father one a Robert Beattie Rattray who died ages 10 months in 1866 and the other being another son they had a year later called Robert Beattie Rattray born 1867, which I suspect is the one who moved to Australia between 1891-1901 as he does not appear in the census when they are in Aberdeen, also it seem by your findings that his brother Charles had moved out and was a watchmaker in Falkirk and he also moved to Australia, am I right on that?
You think this is confusing, well you should see what happened down my line in the 1900s ;D
Christopher Gordon
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Hold on a minute, Robert Bryden Rattray's father Charles "Rathay" Rattray, the mason, is dead in 1842 and is registered dead in his wedding certificate in 1859, so how can William Rattray, a hatter, be down as Robert Bryden Rattrays father when he dies in 1910?
Is William a brother of Charles, Robert Bryden Rattray's uncle or is Charles/William the same man? Maybe John Bryden Rattray put down the wrong name as his fathers father or did he know him by another name......see this family!!! Can we a little imagination and call our children different names?? :D
Christopher Gordon
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I guess I should put my 2 cents worth into this discussion.
Robert's father was in fact Charles Rattray not William. I have been able to confirm this with Robert and Sarah's marriage details. He died 7-3-184 of Inflamation. He was married to Elizabeth Brydon b 1803 died 8-11-1874 and they had 3 children John, Robert Brydon and William B.
Robert Brydon Rattray 1838 was married to Sarah Beattie. He died 2-8-1910 of Influenza & pneumonia and they had 7 children Charles Brydone, Bary Beattie, Robert Beattie, Robert Beattie (Bryden), John (Jock) Beattie, Elizabeth (Lizzie) and Helen Muir (Nellie).
:)
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we share linage through great great grandparents Robert and Sarah Rattray , you come from their son Robert Beattie Rattray and I come from their daughter Mary Beattie Rattray.
Christopher Gordon.
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so when are you coming over to Scotland so we can go look at where they lived? :)
Christopher Gordon.
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Noandra, did you see my other batch of comments related to the family? I hope you find the information helpful :)
Christopher Gordon.
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actually its great great great grandparents Robert and Sarah we share, my great great grandmother was Mary :)
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My great grandfather was John (Jock) Beattie Rattray, a younger brother of Mary. He came to Canada with his wife and two daughters in 1912. I would like to know more about the descendants of the Rattrays who remained in the UK. I have been touch with the two Australian branches - Charles and Robert Beattie (aka Bryden) Rattray.
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Hi there, Mary Rattray was my Great Great Grandmother and we still live in Scotland, I would like to know more of the family from all over the world in Australia and Canada, please get in touch :)
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Aye it was your great grandfather that signed his fathers (Robert Brydon Rattray) death certificate but put the name of Roberts father down as William and not Charles, I put the address your Great Grandfather lived at in aberdeen, its on page 3 of this thread :) He must have moved to Canada the following year after his father died.