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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: stonechat on Monday 16 August 10 22:28 BST (UK)
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Hi
Can't see an existing thread
An interesting programme and to my suprise the indian blood was proved to be correct
The moment that jarred was when the Indian woman researcher handed Rupert the letters written by his great great grandfather (or was there another great) and Rupert just took them as if it was no surprise
Still I enjoyed it
Bob
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Agree totally - really interesting programme
Agree also that for someone to casually hand over your gr. gr.gr. grandfather's letters home over 150 years later, and to have no reaction, that was strange. Can only assume he knew they were coming, but it was a shame that the local expert didn't give any clue as to where she obtained them
The other thing that made me smile was his looking at a baptism record on IGI and saying 'ah, mother has no surname, that's suspicious...' Perhaps he was in Spooks too long!
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I do think the input of the person about whom the programme is being made is so important...
Have to say that I was pretty much underwhelmed by both the Rupert actors (was the other one called Everett?), who really had very little to say about some quite detailed research on their behalf.
Such a contrast to Monty Don, and the delightful sensitive insights and comments he made throughout last week's episode.
keith
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The other thing that made me smile was his looking at a baptism record on IGI and saying 'ah, mother has no surname, that's suspicious...'
I was shouting at the TV, no it's not suspicious most of the baptism records on IGI don't show a mother's surname.
Also surprised when they said he'd found his grandfather's war records (WWII) at Kew. Could this be correct, or was it just his war diaries?
Actually, I found the whole programme rather boring.
Lizzie
Lizzie
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India is not really in my field of family research but found it very interesting nonetheless.
I did cheer though when he was trying to prove his "Indian ancestor" and the researcher over in India told him that he thought this line was at a dead end ;D Yippee I thought, at last an honest experience of genealogical research. Although I was half expecting the voice-over to announce that suddenly some more documents had been miraculously found.......Oh! what I cynic I am ::)
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Like Jubee, India has not featured in my research.
I was quite taken with Rupert's determination to go back as far as he could.
This is what I am always asked when I mention my family history quest - "How far back have you got?"
I think he may have been concentrating so hard on his note taking, that he did not always react to the info. :-\
I hope his mother was impressed with his discoveries!
Quite an enjoyable programme.
Kooky
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Hi all -
Yes - I found this one quite interesting in respect to the Indian research, especially in that the East India men at first were encouraged to marry with local girls and then years later this was very much discouraged.
I found the discovery (as has been mentioned) of the letters of his great - great etc. grandfather a huge surprise and wish they had told us where these documents had come from! They were such personal letters you would have expected them to have remained with family papers (maybe they did?). (Did the original researcher in England make any one else nervous as she was pointing and tapping documents with her pencil!)
I also thought the same as Lizzie regarding the discovery that Susannah had no surname listed on the IGI. Susannah & how many hundreds of other people!
I see that Rupert had the prerequisite pen & notepad which seems to be in vogue in this series. Bet we see a keen note taker in next week's episode! ;D
All in all very enjoyable!
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It would have been a nice ending if he had gone back to his mother and showed her his findings.
After all, she is still as much of a celebrity as he is.
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I too thought the programme ended too soon, I would have loved to see his mothers reaction to the proof of the Indian blood
Lizzie W - why would he know about the IGI index and how marriages are recorded there. Unless you are really into Genealogy, this fact would be an unkown. Therefore to him this missing maiden name would be "suspicous".
I thought the programme was very good, I always love it when they go to India as the record keeping is often so meticulous. Not just the British Army & British Raj records but the records kept within all the villages etc. Loved the fact that he managed to get so far back.
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I quite enjoyed this one - I thought Rupert came across as polite and well-mannered with the way he seemed to shake hands & thank everyone he met - not the same style as the previous Rupert. Like others I'd like to have known the source of those letters - are they with an institution or with descendants? I'm moderately interested in the Indian angle as OH had an ancestor there with the British army slightly earlier, but otherwise I'd say interesting but others have been more so - no reflection on R P-J.
(Did the original researcher in England make any one else nervous as she was pointing and tapping documents with her pencil!)
Yes I was cringing!
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I loved it... He seems to be a really nice down to earth man.. and the things he was able (ok with much help) to discover where very interesting.
xin
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Rupert and Dervla's children now have a good insight into their ancestors on both sides of the family.
Pat ...
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(My 1st post)
It doesn't really bother me that the 'celebrity' they are featuring isn't ALL that famous; it doesn't make it any less interesting.
So RPJ discovered he has Indian blood, albeit no more than about 0.25% according to my calculations. I just had visions of Alistair McGowan screaming at the TV "Call yourself an Anglo Indian!"
Personally I was interested as I have Thorne ancestors from Dorset (Weymouth) and was wondering if there could be any connection.
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Welcome to Rootschat turnup4thebooks -
brilliant name! I always kick myself that I didn't think up something really creative when I registered
Now you know something of that branch of the Thorne family why not post what you have on one of the boards and see if anyone here can help finding out if there's a link?
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Actually, I found the whole programme rather boring.
I do agree to a point
I found the first half very slow going. Whilst grandad and his ambulance career in the war was interesting it seemed very repetative, he seemed to say the same thing (grandad saved many lives, etc) over and over again. This could have been condensed.
The Indian half was a lot better, but I just hate the assumptions !!! (that seem to be in all the episodes)
Because the indian connection was not found in one generation it was assumed that it must be the mothers side a generation further back - why not the other line? I think they did this a couple of times, just ignored the fact that someone had two paretns and followed just one of them looking for the Indian connection. OK they knew the end result ... but not a good example.
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I was shouting at the TV, no it's not suspicious most of the baptism records on IGI don't show a mother's surname.
Likewise. I was more than a little miffed about this. I mean for goodness sake, we all know that the people on the program didn't do the research themselves...and he would have been directed to the IGI by the program makers. Surely someone at the BBC could have pointed out that not only does the IGI generally not show the mother's maiden name, but indeed that it's relatively unusual for even an original baptism entry to even give this information!
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Interestingly, I've just received an e-mail from FindMyPast where they precis last night's programme and show some BMD entries that can be found on FindMyPast. There are a couple of comments on the programme, one which I found very interesting:
Looking at the Familysearch website where they found Louisa Smith baptised to John Smith and Susannah two lines under the entry for her baptism is her death record for 1836.
Their appears to be a flaw in the research
My suspicion sent me in the direction because anybody with the surname Smith or Jones has to be treated with extra caution
That comment is very pertinent and I wonder if in fact they have researched the wrong Susannah, oops Louisa or at least found the baptism of the wrong Susannah. Louisa.
Lizzie
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Looking at the precis on FindMyPast it makes no sense. They state that Thomas Johnstone married a Louisa Todd, when she was 15. That bit I remember. Then it states that Rupert found out that Louisa TODD's parents were John SMITH and Susannah (no surname shown on IGI). Then he traced Susannah's marriage to John Smith where it stated she was Indo English and found her parents were called Collum.
So where did Louisa Todd's parents suddenly become Smith?
Lizzie
I think FindMyPast have got the whole precis muddled. ::) ::)
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I don't remember every detail of that part of the programme, but I do remember thinking 'whoa..' when Rupert found the entry just like that, as Tommy Cooper might have said. Yes, it came up on IGI but there was nothing to confirm it was the correct one, could have been co-incidence.
My assumption last night was that the research had been done in detail prior to the programme, the programme makers therefore knew it was the correct record and, as discussed at length on here in other threads, they just filmed him finding the 'quick win' because they are making a TV show, not a tutorial on the pitfalls of instant answers in genealogy.
That was my feeling last night, and probably still is, though I would be interested to hear if anything further develops
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So where did Louisa Todd's parents suddenly become Smith?
Lizzie
I think FindMyPast have got the whole precis muddled.
They did get it muddled - Louisa Johnstone married into the Todd family. Her parents were Thomas Johnstone and Louisa Smith - it was the mother of Louisa Smith who was named Susanna
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I can't really say very much about the content of the programme, I am sure it was very interesting but having fallen madly in love with Rupert when I saw him in Persuasion I only had eyes and ears for him!!!!!! ::) ;D
Kerry
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Quite agree with you, Kerry :P
I was doing a bit on IGI as the programme went along and my husband queried why Rupert had to go all the way to India when he could have done it from his own computer! He wouldn't have got all that other info though, would he?
Thought it was quite a good programme - bring back Spooks!
Polly
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Not just the British Army & British Raj records but the records kept within all the villages etc.
Did anyone else hope that the records in the villages will be digitised before the heat, humidity, age & general conditions of storage reduce them to paper dust? The pages of the earlier register in the church in Nagpore were already disintegrating.
Josey
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Sad to say, I fell asleep for the last few minutes ::)
I thought the Indian records were very interesting but thought how many researchers could get such detail.
As Pat says- his and Dervla's children have a wealth of family information now - and such contrasting info about their families!
However, I was also taken up with the thoughts that their household must be so restful. :) His voice and demeanour was so calm - that's what probably sent me off to the land of nod ;)
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I enjoyed the programme. Yes there were 'obvious' mistakes but, as has been pointed out may times on this and other threads, these are not made as FH tutorials!
I do get cross with the repetition but that happens in so many programmes nowadays I'd be hoarse if I shouted at the TV every time :D
(Did the original researcher in England make any one else nervous as she was pointing and tapping documents with her pencil!)
I think this might be why you are only allowed to use pencil in a lot of these places ::) At least it can be rubbed out!
Linda
PS Still think Monty & Dervla have been the best so far this season
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I really enjoyed this programme - my other half did as well as became quite amused when I started telling him stuff about where they could find more info and the native indian wife thing - he said something along the lines of what kind of info I absorb whilst reading FH mags and forums like these - I have Ag Lab ancestry from North West Wales - the ancestors have barely moved over the last 200 years !! and still I know roughly where to look for Indian ancestry ! Oh for some exotics !
The ease in which he found the info showed the diff between this programme and heir hunters where not long ago they tried to trace the babtism of someone who died intestate who was born in India but did not succeed !
I found the Monte Cassino section very interesting as I visited the monasteries and surrounding cemeteries as a very naive 17 year old who was absolutely gutted to see the graves of the young men who died - they were only my age then ! I hadn't till then connected the youth of soldiers (although y dad was 18 when he arrived in Burma) with the carefree lads who were in school with me. My uncle also fought in Cassino - apparently he was a General's Batman and met his life long partner on the ship going out there.
How did Rupert access his grandfather's records at the National Archive - I thought 2nd World War Service records were still with the appropriate service and only available to the next of kin - which I am not (to my Uncle as his brother is still alive). I would dearly love to know more about his years of service as he was a career soldier with the welsh guards.
Oops gone on again sorry !
nesta
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I wish somebody would show up with some letters and pictures of my ancestors who were in India!!!
Did anybody else make the connection between the rebellious Indians and a later rebellion closer to home? I couldn't help smiling at the thought of what Rupert's ancestor would have made of/done to the IRA!
Phil
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I don't remember every detail of that part of the programme, but I do remember thinking 'whoa..' when Rupert found the entry just like that, as Tommy Cooper might have said. Yes, it came up on IGI but there was nothing to confirm it was the correct one, could have been co-incidence.
My assumption last night was that the research had been done in detail prior to the programme and, as discussed at length on here in other threads, they just showed him the 'quick win' because they are making a TV show, not a tutorial on the pitfalls of instant answers in genealogy.
That was my feeling last night, and probably still is, though I would be interested to hear if anything further develops
The bulk of the research for this program was not done via either the IGI or other community genealogy sites.
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Yes I agree re the bulk being done beforehand. I suppose it must be to find a suitable storyline.
I managed to see it again last evening when my husband was watching it and I noticed his lack of reaction to a couple of things- especially the letters. Either he thought these things turn up all the time and are a regular part of genealogy research or he knew.
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Yes, it's true that all these types of shows must have to be researched in advance. We all know how long it takes to fine information on our ancestors...and how long it takes to verify all the information we collect. If they didn't research in advance, an episode would have to run for years! Well, if it's anything like researching my family, it would! :)
Also, it's very difficult to find records in India...the problem is magnified there. Made more difficult because to marry a European, an Indian woman had to be baptised in the Christian church. In doing so, whe virtually lost her identity, having only a Christian name. Only the most famous or royally connected Indian women retained their identities, e.g. Begum Sumru, who was christened in the Catholic church.
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To see how long it takes to research these programmes- have a look at this weeks Radio Times
The article about next weeks subject Alexander Armstrong gives a breakdown of how long the whole process take. About 12 weeks if I remember.
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Three comments:
I have spoken to an Irish researcher involved in the programme in Ireland. He is very upset by the implied speed that everyone finds the information. There are weeks of research for all the programmes and in some cases they are not utilsied. The most famous reported cases was that of Michael Parkinson's family lines. They found nothing but Welsh miners that supposedly made his story uninteresting.
on WDYTYA Rupert's ancestor was Elizabeth, Samual Callum's wife. She was spoken of just at the end of the programme when Rupert was given the baptim certificated of Susannah Callum. Both men agreed that Elizabeth not an Indian name, however Rupert to my ears read out that she (Elizabeth) was baptised that day which if I heard true could mean she was Indian and Elizabeth was the Christian name she took when she was an adult.
I must say that what I would love is if at the end they posted a family chart that would give a final picture. After this programme I was soprry I hadn't taken notes myself to kepp up!!
Last comment- On information in India - I also hope that many of the surviving records have not been washed away recently. My children's great great grandfather was born in Nowshera. Then India but now Pakistan and this area has been totally destroyed recently by the drastic flooding
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Regarding research for the programmes, this week's Radio Times 21-27 August has an article on next weeks subject Alexander Armstrong (I wonder if he regrets that brilliant spoof sketch ;D
Five months of research and they break down into weeks what was done and how they went about it, interesting to note that they used the internet source A2A, but mostly they went to the archive centre for whatever theyneeded, such as British Library and the National Maritime Museum and county Record Offices.
The filming was done in ten days, broken into two five day sessions.
It mentions that photocopies of all the information on events etc are collected along the way ready to hand to 'the subject' on screen.
This one is going to be going back a very long way, so a change from most of this seasons programmes.
Pat ...
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"rushes out to buy radio times" :D :D :D
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The history of Anglo-Indian culture is a fascinating and often tragic one. If you want to know more about the communty in the 18th and early 19th centuries, I recommend that you read Christopher Hawes' book, "Poor Relations". You can probably pick up a copy from www.abebooks.com Also, Herbert Alick Stark's, "Hostages to India". Eye-openers.
My life revolves around the AI community, and I've co-authored a book about the community. It's about to be placed in the hands of my literary agent...fingers crossed!! :)
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Personally I found this particular program very interesting as it follows a general history of part of my own family who with a relatively rare surname have been easier than some to trace (Chiodetti) it is nice to know what else was going on in history and why certain things happened the way they did makes the whole thing come alive.
What I did find disappointing was his blase and rather rude attitude towards the people who were helping him I would have bitten their hand off to be given such wonderful pieces of history but perhaps this is down to the way it was edited rather than his poor behaviour...lets hope so anyway.
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I was under the impression when I watched this episode, that he was overcome by emotion, and that what might be perceived to be rudeness or indifference on his part was more likely to be the result of him fighting to keep his emotions in check. I have seen this sort of reaction - or rather, lack of reaction - in a friend who had searched for decades for his ancestors and was then handed something very significant. He was in the public eye a lot and guarded his privacy jealously when it came to his personal life, always playing his cards very close to his chest and in particular not revealing his feelings in case they were broadcast to the world at large. Could be the same for an actor? I think that if you did this long enough, it would become habit?
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Obviously these programs are scripted, so it would be no surprise for him to see his ancestor’s letters as he had probably already gone through them with a fine toothed comb, he could have acted a bit though I suppose. Very interesting none the less, but I was very surprised that he didn’t want to research his paternal line, perhaps there are dark skeletons in that cupboard!
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Obviously these programs are scripted, so it would be no surprise for him to see his ancestor’s letters as he had probably already gone through them with a fine toothed comb, he could have acted a bit though I suppose. Very interesting none the less, but I was very surprised that he didn’t want to research his paternal line, perhaps there are dark skeletons in that cupboard!
Ken, I think that any skeletons would have been in the closet on his mother's side!! :)
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I agree Lynn, but unfortunately the records ran out just as it was getting interesting!!
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I agree Lynn, but unfortunately the records ran out just as it was getting interesting!!
Ken, I did a lot of the genealogical research for this episode, and a lot of stuff didn't get in there, probably because of the amount of time they had to fit it into.