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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: bill247 on Sunday 15 August 10 20:39 BST (UK)
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HI Bill from Glasgow here,
Iam wondering if anyone can help me with any information.
My Late Father served on this RDF UNIT during the seige of malta 1940-1943.
I have some information on this Radar Unit , but i am struggling to find a location on the Dingli Cliffs as to where this unit was located .
My Dad served with the RAF as an RDF ( radar ) operator and i have been trying to find a map which identify's this station from around 1942.
I got some information from a researcher at kew but most all pointed to the midle east war theatre.
Any assistance would be most appreciated.
Regards.
Bill.
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See Topic: >>----- Guidelines for Postings / Netiquette -----<< , Reply #2 for explanation.
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Bill
Had a look in my RAF Sqns book. Dingli Cliff does not appear in their list of RAF stations in Malta. It may have been attached to one of the others as a sub unit without being shown as a separate station.... Presume you have found the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dingli The nearest RAF stations were Luqa or Krendi. If you can get his service records then you might find out exactly. They will cost unless your mother is still alive in which case she can get them free. Get a photocopy not a transcription if you do.
If you get some of the books about the RAF in Malta. Buy second hand from Alibris, AbeBooks or Amazon. They may mention it.
That being said he had a really important job because he would have been warning the RAF of approach of enemy aircraft during their most dangerous part of the war.... Another understated hero!
Dee
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Dee, Thank you very much for your reply.
I am not sure if i have put over the info correctly.
Yes i have my late dad's service record from the RAF, It shows that he was a Radar Operator for the 5 yrs he was in the service during WW2. Almost 3 yrs were spent in Malta on the Air Ministry Experimental Station 504 or as the RAF named it RAF No 4 Dingli. Radar or Radio Direction Finding ( RDF ) Stations arrived in Malta in March 1939 and was at Dingli Cliff ( Ames 241 ) a second RDF arrived also at Dingli in late 1939 being ( Ames 242 ) Dad's unit ( 504 or No 4 col ) arrived in October 1940. By that time both Ames 241& 242 had merged at the top of Dingli Cliff to become an Advance chain Overseas unit giving high Radar cover, However there was no low Radar cover till my dad's unit plus another 2 Ames ( 501& 502 ) were placed at different points on Malta as 501,502& 504 were low Radar covering units.
504 was the only low Radar covering unit at Dingli Cliff and i believe it was located opposite the Aco at Dingli Cliff. If you google Dingli Radar and look at the picture you will see what looks like a golf ball on a tee, That is the present civilian ATC and on this site in WW2 sat the RAF ACO ( 241& 242 combined ) If you look to the left hopefully DEE you will see 2 antenna and a small building on there own , This is where i think the RAF AMES 504 was located , however i do not have any proof and i am trying to locate a map with this information on it from the WW2 period.
Dee , i hope this explains everything a bit more clearer and i thank you once again for taking the time to reply to my post.
Bill
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Hi Bill
I came across this item (see below) that mentions RAF at Dingli Cliffs
Not much you may be able to make out of it but worth reading.
I worked with the RAF 137 MU in Malta c1946 at Kalafrana Base
I believe that there was a Radar Unit at Dingli Cliffs that was manned by US Military but cannot remember the year or period.
" Charles Bray in Royal Air Force. In January 1956, Bray was called for National Service, to serve in the forces. Bray chooses the Royal Air Force, In Henlow, Bedfordshire, North of London. After finishing his training [recruiting]. Bray was posted overseas in Nicosia, Cyprus. Idris, Libya. Bray also was participating in the Suez crises [During Nasser Regime] with 208 Squadron. In 1958 Bray was posted at Royal Air Force Ta-Kali, in Malta the Country he was born. Royal Air Force Ta-Kali had an air Field with a fleet of Hunters, Shackleton, Meteor, Vulcan and Canberra. After serving six months at Royal Air Force Ta-Kali, Bray was transferred to another Unit with Royal Air Force, Radar Station at Dingli Cliffs. After one year transferred to another Unit with Royal Air Force Radar Station at Tas-Silg. In 1959 Bray tried to build a football team called Fleur-De-Leys F.C. the boys that played had to be from Fleur-De-Leys, B’kara. See Bray posing by the Radars at Tas-Silg Malta. And last one the Fleur-De-Leys Team."
[See more pictures at http://www.searchmalta.com / at photo gallery Tas-Silg.
Charles Bray passed away in Canada during 2009,
Regards
Another Bill.
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I have a chum in the RAF who comes from Malta...I'll ask him about it ;D
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Hi , Bill from Glasgow here.
Firstly my thanks to Rover for contacting me on the Malta Radar Ames 504 Dingli Radar Station.
When i set out to find the location of this Station almost 2 yrs ago, i was put in touch with Mr Charles Bray in Canada and he provided me with some useful information that he had at the time. Although he had been there some time after my late Father some of the info was most welcome.
Bill , Iam very sorry to hear of his passing last year, However his memory will live on through his photo's from malta on his website.
Bill , may i just say that the Dingli Radar's ( There were 3 Stations along the cliff in the late 1940s at Dingli ) were all manned by the UK Royal Air Force and that there was no US military involved.
Bill , thank you for your contact which was much appreciated.
Secondly , My thanks to moderator scrimnet for also contacting me on my topic and i will await your reply with interest , as i have found it very difficult to find much material on this radar unit.
I am trying to find any proof of the location on dingli cliff as this station was Ames 504 which was the Air Ministry No also it was known as the RAF No 4 COL ( chain overseas low ) Radar Station Dingli Malta and my Father was stationed there from 1940-1943 and my Father as billeted at the RAF Station Hal-Far Malta.
Again may i thank you both ever so much for your replies to this topic.
Bill
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Good luck with that Bill. Do let us know what you find out...
Dee
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Dee , Thanks again for your message of yesterday.
I will let you know the outcome of this post although it may be some time.
As you may have read ,i have been trying to find the location of this Radar unit on Dingli cliff Malta for almost 2 yrs.
I have some information in my Late Fathers RAF record of Service which confirmed that he served on Malta on the Ames 504 Radar Station Dingli Cliff from Oct 1940 till sept 1943 as an RDF Operator..
I have had 2 appeal letters published in the Times of Malta Newspaper and although i got again some info , There is sadly no confirmation of the whereabouts on Dingli Cliff that the Ames 504 Chain Overseas Low Radar Unit was located. So the search for a map goes on.
I know a few people have looked at this post so can i appeal to anyone who would know where i can obtain a military map of MALTA in the 1940s particularly showing the Radar Units please leave a message and ill get back to you , THANKS.
Thanks again for your message DEE and ill get back to you when i have more info.
Bill.
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I am only surmising ,the Dingli unit may have come under the control (for admin purposes ) of RAF Siggiewi which was the main comms unit. You may find out more details from there.
Rog
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Hi Rog, looked at raf siggeiwi on the net and it appears to have been a hf radio station as opposed to a radar station. i think the admin was done from forces hq in valletta. was worth a look. thanks. bill
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Hi, have not used Rootschat for ages but hopefully I can help. Have you tried contacting the Aviation Museum at Ta' Qali, Malta (am I allowed to post website address here?). We have been there quite a few times and they are always very helpful for info.
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hi, thanks for the info, i have already been there last year on hols and found some info ( a pic from 1972 ). sadly i have nothing confirmed from ww2 era . thanks very much for the thought.
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Hi Bill,
I sugested RAF Siggeiwi as when I was serving at Luqa from 1962 it was the main hub for all the litlle comms or radar site littered arround for the servicing crews etc . It semed to be the be all and end all of anything from a Telephone to Transmitters ,Radios,VOR,s and Approach Radars etc . There were also some RCOS Army Signals bods there sometimes.Thought perhaps you might find some references in the Sataion records if they are held at National Archives. Last I heard Siggeiwi site was a training area for the Maltese Police.You could also try this link there is a forum on there someone may be able to help
http://raf-luqa.weebly.com/ Good Luck Rog.
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hi rog, thanks again for the info. yes siggeiwi is for the maltese police as you said. had a researcher at kew few months ago and again although some info found no exact location at dingli cliff for this radar station forthcomming. thanks again .bill.
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Hi, have not used Rootschat for ages but hopefully I can help. Have you tried contacting the Aviation Museum at Ta' Qali, Malta (am I allowed to post website address here?). We have been there quite a few times and they are always very helpful for info.
I dont think Scrim will mind you putting that on... I will find it interesting too!
Dee
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Hi, have not used Rootschat for ages but hopefully I can help. Have you tried contacting the Aviation Museum at Ta' Qali, Malta (am I allowed to post website address here?). We have been there quite a few times and they are always very helpful for info.
#
Lovely little museum with the Gladiator....
Pse do!
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thanks scrimnet. Dee the website for the aviation museum at raf ta-qali , go to google and type malta aviation museum and scoll down to the one you want . or if you prefer the full id is www.maltaaviationmuseum.com and again just scroll to the one you want. they have a spitfire named mary rose and also a hurricane in the museum. bill.
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They have made a fab job of restoring those aircraft....
Dee
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Dee, glad you like them . there are a lot of things that you dont see on the website but the main attraction in the battle of malta hanger is the spitfire and hurricane. bill.
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But of course they are... Very special aircraft in lots of ways.
Hope Kyt can find out some about Dingli for you. Hes a bit of guru and has the contacts to find out more...
Dee
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Hi Bill I noticed your post the other day. I lived in Malta in the late Sixties, my Father was station there. As lads do, me and some of my mates walked along the Dingli Cliffs on many occasions. Sadly I can't tell you Exactly where you father worked but I do know south east of the village of Dingli there was some kind of Radio Station . Boys being Boys we would mess about in the old buildings pretending to play war games. I remember one building built of some kind of stone and concrete with a green painted square by the door. I can't remember what was exactly on it but I'm sure it was some kind of radio station. there was also concrete slabs very close to it which maybe where the masts were. I have a book on the Siege of Malta 1940-1943 called Fortress Malta by James Holland. I've look through it and found nothing regarding radio stations at Dingli. My Brother, who is 4 years older than I may know better the position of radar stations on the Island , he was in the Air Force too and is a bit of an anorak on all things RAF. I'll try and contact him and see if he can help. Good hunting Dave.
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hi dave, thank you very much for your reply to the post. i am told that the radars always stood on the top of dingli cliff near the magdalena church ,but if you remember dingli cliff is quite long. i too have the siege of malta book and it i think mentions 1 radar being the ames 241 which stood at the end of the road from dingli village near the navy look-out post. anyway thanks again and if your brother comes up with something i will be very interested. cheers, bill
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Have just been flicking through Tony Spooner's (DSO DFC) Faith Hope And Malta GC, having remembered I have it in my library... ::)
Marvellous account of the air war in Malta, but haven't found a reference to the radar...yet...Apart from the airborne ASV stuff
Incidentally, the book is dedicated to the RAF MO at Takali by Spooner himself...
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Faith, Hope and Charity the three Gloster Gladiators that held of the mighty Luftwaffe and Italian Air Force for so long . I bet it's a good book.
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Hello, Bill from Glasgow here again ,
May i take this opportunity to say a HUGE thanks to everyone who answered my appeal for information on my research into my Late Dad's Radar Unit ( RDF No 504 COL Ames Unit ) at Dingli Cliff MALTA .
I would just like to say that after almost 4 yrs of searching i have finally found an answer .
I had always thought that Dad's Radar Unit was located at OR near the present Radar dome at Dingli cliff , On this site was the Advanced Chain Overseas High unit ( a.c.o. ) comprising of the first & second Radar units on Malta being No 241 & No 242 Ames units which arrived on the Island on March 1939 and June 1940 respectfully . My Dad's unit along with another 2 chain overseas low looking Radars arrived on the 9Th November and were located at fort ta silg ( No 501 ) and fort Magdalena ( 502 ) and at Dingli ( 504 ) .
My Dad's Radar however was NOT at the present dome site but was located about 500 metres away on a site called TAL-PITKAL and was located on the existing Mobile Base site as the Air Ministry papers call it . I also have an Air MINISTRY 1941 MAP which shows the VHF/DF station marked on this site in the COL column of the map.
At this present time i have 3 ex RAF people looking at my information and they srved at Dingli in the 1950's , i also have 2 RAF warrant officers doing the same , 1 is from the radio school at cosford and the other is from the signals unit at leeming . Also the Mayor of Dingli is looking at my info and a maltese major who was instrumental in getting the present Radar dome up and running.
So again many thanks to DEE and everyone else who assisted me with this project.
Kindest Regards
Bill.
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Hi Bill 247. Caught your posting which appears to be 5 February 2012. Although not searching for the radar site, I am searching for another radio site nearby and one other near RAF Siggiewi. I notice you refer to a Maltese Major who helped set up the current radar. Is this by any chance Major Tony Abela, formerly RAF and then, I'm assuming, AFM. If so I have been trying to track him down without success for over eighteen months. Can you offer any assistance in that direction. The site I am researching was a radio relay link to Il Qortin in Gozo in the early to mid sixties and from vague memory was located in a single story building, I think between the current radar and the AMES unit. Your efforts have been appreciated as it is helping to narrow down the area which I am looking for.
Any assistance appreciated by myself and two others, in connection with a new website for RAF Siggiewi.
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Hi Gordimil , got your post OK.
Your search for the person named is over and you have come to the right site.
I emailed him last night and received his reply this morning .
He tells me that the Radio Relay to Tal Qortin in Gozo was linked to the Isle of Wight here in the UK and was operational for a few years but had to close down due it interfering with a radio link in Paris.
The Single Story building between the Radar and the Ames is correct .
He is Happy for me to give you his email , However i am very wary to give it out on this website .
His email does not contain his name in any form , However i would like my Moderator Mr Scrimnet to advice me if this would be OK unless you can come up with any other suggestions .
Mr Scrimnet , Your advice Please . The Gentlemans name is not on his email address .
I am in Glasgow Scotland , what is your location. Regards Bill
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Many many thanks. I hadn't expected a reply this quickly.
Information there that I did not know about the unit's demise so the start of another learning curve. I was fairly confident that I had worked out the location judged from a photo on the net. Surprising how some things changed, but some not. Main reason for contact requirement was regarding a HF direction finding station which as far as we can determine was in the fields near RAF Siggiewi, which as far as we can determine ceased operation around 1960. There are those of us who believe that these old stations, wherever they may have been, should have a far more evident history, readily accessible to all.
Nothing to do with war memories but actual fact. They existed, human beings worked there and therefore someone may want to know about them. Some to trace ancestors. Some to 'bury ghosts'. Currently the reason for the search is probably the latter. We just can't pin it down. You must know what it's like.
Currently I am residing in the High Wycombe Buckinghamshire area, my last posting having been to HQ Strike Command, as was, at Walters Ash. Ex directory but if you are an amateur radio operator registered on qrz.com or with the RSGB, my call sign is M0GGW, if that's permitted on this posting.
Once again many thanks for your efforts.
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Glad to see that there are answers coming out of the woodwork for this one after all this time! ;)
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If you can get to Kew, the Operations Record Book is available (in the original, not even microfilmed!) at the National Archives:
Air Ministry and Ministry of Defence: Operations Record Books, Miscellaneous Units AIR29/180 504 Air Ministry Experimental Station (AMES). Formed in the UK then moved to Malta in November 1940. Covered dates: 1940 Aug.-1944 July with appendices.
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Hi Gordimil , Thanks for your post and a pleasure to assist if i can.
I have just sent another Email to the person about the HF DF Unit at RAF Siggiewi and will contact you when i get a reply .
Yes , It can be frustrating at times trying to research things from way back as i am going further back than yourself .
I have just almost spent three and a Half yrs on the RAF No 504 DF AMES Radar Unit on which my Late Dad served on in WW2 on Malta . The person and the Mayor of Dingli have been of great assistance as has been 3 ex RAF personnel who served on Radar at Dingli in the 1950's and at present i have a W.O. from the RAF Radio school at Cosford and a Sgt from the Signals Unit at RAF Leeming looking at all the Info to try and if possible confirm the location of this Radar Unit .
As for me i am almost 60 and a Hospital Theatre Recovery Assistant looking after Local Anaesthetic patients after Surgery which i have done for 35 yrs.
Will be in touch when i have a reply .
C. U Bill
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Hi, Bill from Glasgow again and i have had a reply from Tony .
It Reads " No i do not know that D F as i joined the RAF in January 1961.
The only VHF DF stations i know is the one at TA-KALI in 1961 and another at Luqa till
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Hi Bill again, Sorry i pressed the send button by mistake . I will try again to send the info as i have it from Tony received today at Lunchtime.
" No i do not remember that DF as i joined the RAF in January 1961 .
The only D F stations that i know is the VHF DF at Ta -KALI in 1961and at Luqa another VHF DF till 1979. Both were referred to as CRDF . A UHF DF was at Luqa Till 1979 referred to as a CADAF .
There was another DF at Dingli during the 1960's .
Regret i cannot help with the one near Siggiewi " .
Well Gordimil , thats the info i have from Tony .
Regret i can also be of no assistance to you as it's the Radar Unit No 504 which was a Chain Overseas Low Unit which if you look at the Radar Pages you can see if you go to the COL Page abd look at the Type No 2 which overseas was a Type 5 with slight modifications as the Antenna was only 70 Ft and not 180 Ft .
Best of luck with the new RAF SIGGIEWI website , I will keep an eye open for it.
Bill
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Hi Dee, Yes at long last .
Thanks to info from yourself and others which as you may have read include Major Tony Abela and Major Stanley Clews , Mr Borg ( Mayor of Dingli Malta ) Mr Frederick Galea from the Aviation Museum at Ta Kali , The Chief Archivist at the Maltese Archives in Rabat all from Malta . the 3 ex RAF personnel here in the UK who served at Dingli in the 1950's Jo Dansie from the British Library who sent me some maps which were a bit earlier but useful Flt Lt Mary Hudson from the RAF Air Historical Branch and Lauren Woodard from the RAF Museum London who sent me the photo's of the Area at Dingli , Roy Bullers and Mr Hewlett from the Radar Defence Museum at Neatishead , Norfolk and the present RAF Wo from RAF Cosford and the RAF Sgt from RAF Leeming who are looking at the information to try to confirm the site .
I know Dee that i Will never be able to say that My Late Dad's Radar stood on that particular spot in a field but we now have the Field and area at Dingli where it stood so that is the massive bonus .
So Dee , Thanks again for your input .
Best Wishes .
Bill.
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Hi Graham, Thanks for your post to this site .
I managed to get to KEW last August for the day while on holiday in Bournemouth and what a place .
Had a good read at the No 504 RDF DF Stations Operation Records which gave a lot of information which i did not know about as my Dad was on that station from it's formation till he left Malta for Egypt in May 1943.
However it does not give you the exact location , But it does give you a lot of pointers to where it stood and with the help of the Air Ministry 1941 map which i received from Mr Charles Farrugia ( Chief Archivist ) at the Archives in Rabat Malta and along with a few others have managed to locate the area and field that Dad's Radar stood in which after almost 4 yrs of trying to find any info on the net or otherwise was a massive bonus.
Again Graham, Thanks for the input which is very much appreciated .
Kindest Wishes.
Bill.
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Hi Bill. Thanks for the message and glad to see you have a location for the 504. I haven't given up completely for the HF DF as around 1963/4, although not in operation, the building was used by RAF amateur radio operators based at Siggiewi. Someone out there knows its location, and hopefully through various sites and other contacts we may be as successful as yourself. Is there any way you might be able to post a map/satellite location for the 504 for other interested parties to see?
Regards
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Hi Gordimil, Have tried twice to send the map to you and it failed as the map is to big and exceeds the limit set for here .
If you look at Google map of Malta and find Dingli Village follow the straight road from the village to the cliffs , There are buildings at the corner of this road and the cliff path .
This is where the RAF barrack blocks to house the Radar personnel were built in 1941 . At the road end as you look at the map go LEFT along the cliff till you come to 2 paths ( 1 straight 1 curved ) which lead to what looks like a farm , To the RIGHT of this about 1 o clock position you will see a building at an angle , Beside that building to the LEFT of it is where we beliEve my Dad's Radar was sited , That is where on the Air Ministry 1941 map it shows the VHF DF Station (which in the COL Column of the same map it is located ) The station was also a Chain Overseas Low Radar ( COL ) so we believe that is possibly the site . The area is called TAL PITKAL. The area is mentioned on a contours map and the height above sea level is 800 Ft.
Hope this helps Sir,
Bill.
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I think I've followed your directions correctly and have tried uploading.
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Near enough for Government work as they say in the RAF ;D Glad to have been of help...
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Hi Gordimil, Thanks again for the post and picture , You are in the right Direction but just to far along.
before i forget i had a reply from Tony and he will try some of his EX RAF Friends and see if he can find any Info for you re the Radio operators group at RAF Siggiewi , Will let you know if i receive anything .
Back to the location of No 504 COL DF AMES RADAR , I may have made it difficult for you ( SORRY ) so i will try again.
Google map of Malta and zoom into Dingli village find theroad from the village to the cliff path ( Triq It Turretta ) this leads to the cliff path ( Triq Panoramika ) at the junction of triq It Turretta and Triq Panoramika you can see some buildings on the LEFT corner , This as i said was the RAF Domestic site ( Barrack blocks x3 dinning room & ablutions block ) again come LEFT along the triq Panoramika as the path turns slight RIGHT then goes straight for a very short stretch then there is a very slight LEFT Turn in the path , At this point on the right there is 1 path that leads off the main cliff path into what looks like a square yard , This path looks like it has these bright chucky stones on it .
Oposite the square type yard is a building beside the stone dyke wall , the building is at an angle beside this building runs what looks like an old dirt track from the cliff path as you can see the wheel tracks which goes past this building .
To the left of this building about a few yards is where My Late Dad's Radar Station No 504 COL AMES
was sited . The next main road off the cliff path is marked SAN PAWL / TAL PITKALI . DO NOT GO THIS FAR ALONG THE CLIFF. Hope this helps Bill
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Hi Bill, had another go. If I've managed to follow your directions this time, the marker pin is the nearest I could get it to where I think you meant.
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Hi Gordimil , I am sitting here pulling my hair out ( What i have left ) as you are a hairs breadth away .
Your marker is on the site of the RAF No 203's COL Receiver site from 1955 and on that site were Type 13 and 14 Radars and a height finder Radar and i have the pictures of them , The transmitter site for this station was further along the cliff on the site of the present Civil Radar nicknamed the Golf Ball . you would see it if you come back past the domestic site and before you get to the Madeliena Church on the cliff.
Right , From your ( A ) Marker come RIGHT an Inch and you will see a path ( looks like a gravel path ) and the words TRIQ PANORAMIKA are underneath the entrance of this path which leads up to what looks like a yard.
In the field to the RIGHT of this path you can see what looks like vehicle tyre tracks which are beside the Stone Dyke wall , The tyre tracks turn LEFT near the top of the field beside an ANGLED Building .
To the LEFT SIDE of that building in that field stood my Dad's Radar RAF No 504 COL DF from its arrival in November 1940 till my Dad left for Egypt in May 1943 .
This time Gordimil you definately have the location .
Bill.
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Sorry Bill, I think it's me. Before I post another wrong view, can you confirm from Google the latitude and longitude of the building in question is around about 35.85, 14.37.
If you right click on the building then select 'what's here' it should come up with the figures.
Part of the problem has been with regard to the level of zoom and size of display. As one zooms in closer so the words Triq Panoramika come up more often along the road.
I think I've got it this time but would like to be sure.
Any idea how I can remove the entries with the wrong locations?
regards
gordon
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Gordon The X marks the spot , I hope it goes to you alright.
Bill.
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Hi Gordon . Hurrah it went to you and the X as i say marks the area that the Air Ministry Map of 22nd February 1941 tells me that it stood .
Just how accurate the Map is i do not know but i am hopeful that it is accurate and you now as well as anyone else that is interested can see the Location of My Late Dad's Radar Unit RAF No 504 Chain Overseas Low Radar Direction Finding Unit which as i have said served on this site from November 1940 till my Dad was transferred to Egypt in May 1943 .
Gordon , if i hear from Toy Regarding the RAF Siggiewi , I will be back in touch.
Thank you very much for your interest in my almost 4 Year Project.
Warmest Regards.
Bill.
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Gordon , Just a closer view and the arrow is pointing to the building , In the field beside the building stood RAF No 504 COL DF RADAR . Also it has the Lattitude and longitude numbers on the top .
Bill
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Hi Bill. Yes we finally got there together.
Just to broaden your shots out a little, I think this will firmly guide anyone else to the location, that are not quite as intimate with the locality as we now are.
I just hope our search for the HF DF station doesn't take as long.
It's been nice chatting.
Regards
Gordon
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Hi Gordon, You are 1 field too far to the right .
If you Look at the top of your yellow circle , Its the next field on your LEFT .
Good chatting to you and i hope you have luck with the HF Radio .
Bill.
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Gordon , As i said in the last post if you look at the top of your yellow circle The Radar stood in the small part of the next field JUST on your LEFT . There is a building beside your yellow circle the Radar was on the LEFT of that building .
Take Care .
Bill.
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Gordon , This is the map that gives you the RIGHT location of Dad's Radar Unit RAF No 504 Chain Overseas Low Radar Unit at Dingli Cliff Malta .
The RED ( x ) in the picture is the field that according to the Air Ministry Map of that area which is Dated 22 nd February 1941 .
That is the field that the Radar stood in beside the building which according to Google maps is still in that location today .
The buildings to the bottom of the picture were the Domestic site ( Barrack huts , Dinning room and toilet block ) and were built in late 1940/ early 1941 and in the 1950' this site was called RAF DINGLI.
Thanks again for your interest and i hope that you conclude your own research soon .
Bill.
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Hi Bill. Yup, I can see my error now. Comes from trying to mark it after one has zoomed out. Those fields all look the same from a distance. All the same drab colour.
regards
Gordon
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Hi to all contributors on this subject and a special Hello to Bill.
Wants to let you know that I am still working actively on this subject and I hope that in the coming weeks I will be able to the whole configuration of Radar Systems in Malta during WWII.
Presently the information I have from Official records (thanks to Bill and his contacts) is somehow conflicting, but I believe it will converge when the missing links are confirmed.
The sites where Radar Systems were definitely installed in Malta during WWII were Dingli ( the largest complex rather than a site), Fort Madalena at Bahar ic-Caghaq, Fort tas-Silg at Marsaxlokk and Tal-Giordan Lighthouse at Ghasri Gozo. Later on Ghar Lapsi and possibly Marsascala area were also used.
At present I can definitely state that the very first installations were AMES 2 COL Overseas using 90ft towers at Dingli and Madalena and possibly tas-Silg and later complemented with RDF Units. While at Dingli and Madalena the towers are still in place, at tas-Silg I can vouch that there were no such towers at least since 1961.
I will keep you posted and hope to put everything on record when I have the whole puzzle solved.
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Sorry that on my previous post I did not identify myself. I am Major Tony Abela, served with RAF(*Malta) Jan 1961 - March 1979 and with AFM April 1979 and Sept 1999.
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Hi Bill
My father served in Malta RAF AMES 504 from October 1940 for 3 years during the siege of Malta. He thinks he served in the same unit as your father and almost certainly knew him. My fathers name is Ron, and would be very interested to know your fathers name.
Many Thanks
Anne
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Hi Bill
My father served in Malta RAF AMES 504 from October 1940 for 3 years during the siege of Malta. He thinks he served in the same unit as your father and almost certainly knew him. My fathers name is Ron, and would be very interested to know your fathers name.
Many Thanks
Anne
Hi Lilly377,
I am 'ninton' who blogged just before you.
I am currently building up the complete history of WWII Radar in Malta and I am very interested to find more information straight from the horse's mouth. So if you can contact me on my email or otherwise and pass me some memories of your father, such as his full name and the names of the workmates he remember and any interesting episode during his service at Dingli Cliffs 504 AMES I will be more than grateful. My aim is to put on record those men and their wartime contribution who served on radar duties in Malta during WWII>
Thank you
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Hi Bill
My father served in Malta RAF AMES 504 from October 1940 for 3 years during the siege of Malta. He thinks he served in the same unit as your father and almost certainly knew him. My fathers name is Ron, and would be very interested to know your fathers name.
Many Thanks
Anne
Hi Lilly377,
I am 'ninton' who blogged just before you.
I am currently building up the complete history of WWII Radar in Malta and I am very interested to find more information straight from the horse's mouth. So if you can contact me on my email or otherwise and pass me some memories of your father, such as his full name and the names of the workmates he remember and any interesting episode during his service at Dingli Cliffs 504 AMES I will be more than grateful. My aim is to put on record those men and their wartime contribution who served on radar duties in Malta during WWII>
Thank you
My father would be pleased to help, can you please send your email address and we will email you more information.
Thanks, Anne
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I can be contacted on (*)
Thanks
Tony
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
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Unfortunately your email address was removed for safety and as I have only just become a member I am unable to PM you currently. Hopefully after this post I will be able to receive Personal Messages. Can you please PM me your email address after you have read this post, and I will send you the first part of my fathers story.
Thanks Anne
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Hi , Bill from Glasgow here and i am sorry for not coming back to this site sooner . Over the years i have been overwhelmed by the assistance of the rootschat friends on this site . I now thanks to Ninton ( maj Tony Abela from Malta ) and Lilly 377 ( Anne and her Dad Ron ) have found at long last the location of the RAF No 504 Chain Overseas Low Radar Unit that both my Dad and Anne's Dad served on together from their arrival in Malta in November 1940 till my Dad left in May 1943.
Tony has been trying to assist me for almost the last 3 yrs and found Anne's on this website which was fantastic .
I now have the location on the Dingli cliff top area as to where the Radar Unit was sited and also when the Radar moved over the cliff to a lower ledge when they were being jammed from Sicily in early 1943 thanks to Tony i now have a picture of both sites . Also thanks to Anne's Dad the 504 Radar crew photo i have now all the crew bar 1 person has a name and i am learning other things about the Radar Unit and my Dad's involvement .
I would like once again to thank everyone who has tried to assist me in my project to find my Dad's Radar Unit over the years and wish you all the best for the future .
With Kindest Regards and thanks to all.
bill.
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Hi Bill and everyone, it was my pleasure to get involved in as much as I am finishing the last parts of my research about the Early warning System which was used by the British Forces in Malta during WWII.
Thanks to this system and the servicemen and civilians who gave their utmost in the most difficult conditions a lot of lives, both servicemen and local population were saved by the efficient Air Raid Warnings which gave enough time for people to go to shelter, while the rest braved the enemies either in sky or on the ground.
Due to this I feel obliged that I will put this history with as much details as possible into print, as up to now only parts and sometimes with slight deviation from what actually happened is recorded in the public media.
So if anybody can help me by providing as much information as possible either directly from experience or through memories of their loved ones, so that I will be able to make a complete picture as much as possible.
I am making this project for no material interest at all except to give due recognition to those who through their duties served not only their country but also my country, Malta.
Tony Abela (Major)
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Hello to all,
the Radar was absolutely vital for Malta and so for Suez and so for the World. Some details must be explained.
from mid July 1942 RDF (CHL) were jammed. But it seems that GCI has been received. We can consider that the frequency of the CHL like AMES typ 2 was 200MHz but the frequency of the GCI should be 500-600Mhz (if it's GCI typ 11 ordered in 1942 or Fighter Direction like Mk1 yhat was mobile.
For type 11 Output Device is NT99. Mobile sets as standby if the 200MHz band was jammed. 600MHz was used by Germany.. Later versions from Mk5 Were coherent. First versions had rotary spark gap modulator. Horizontal beam 4 Deg, Vertical 11 Deg.
Other possibility : some CHL produced at 250-300Mhz as an insurance against jamming.
remark: The delivery of a centimetric surface radar (CD or GCI) should be impossible before September 1942.
Chronicle :
On July 1942 RDF were jammed (see the Malta diary also Malta Story). RV Jones in charge of the countermeasures has analysed the situation and recommended to go on transmitting even if the Radars are jammed. It's said that the jammers were stopped by the Germans because they've stopped to jammed seeing always the radar signals. But RV Jones memories are not totally exact. It was important to decoy the Germans by transmitting on 200Mhz as the same time the new GCI radar recently arrived on Malta was able to guide the Beaufighter AI mk 4 (200MHz) and then should certainly have other frequencies;
other important information that after the arrival of the hero of Dunkirq and the hero of the battle of Britain Air Vice-Marshal Keith PArk at Malta July 15, 1942). Park knew a lot about the radars and particularly the inefficiency of the RDF during the battle of Britain. Like on September 1940 he has hopefully changed the tactics, on the July 1942, Park changed the orders: the spit and beau have to take off as soon as possible to intercept enemy fighters and bombers on the way yo Malta, soon after they were detected.
Some RN escort vessels may be used the typ 271 radar to detect with their unjammed 3GHz frequency.
AI mk 4 radars of the beaufighters were impacted by the jammers. during 15 days before the arrival of USS ohio, the squadron 89 has won no victory (the last was Nevil Reeves' victory on the July 30/31 see http://www.cieldegloire.com/sq_raf_089.php). On the 10th August 1942, the Canadian Ace Robert Fumerton has an engine problem and jump in the water. he was saved after some hours in the bath by another ace Nevil Reeves (who used many gallons of the precious oil to save his friend).
On the June 22, 1942 radar operators specially trained for AIMk7 use arrived from Egypt. (where Park has managed the arrival of the first squadrons fitted with AI mk7 radars for Beaufighters and ASV mk 3 radars for Wellington (squadron 248 and 252).
In the book "Chance and Design: Reminiscences of Science in Peace and War' written by Alan Hodgkin (specialist of the AI radars he's invented the scanning method for AI mk 7/8 radars), this one has detailed the arrival of the centimetric radar just before the Pedestal vital convoy.
On 14 beaufighter available 5 were sent to Malta. AI mk 7 were dismounted before. the Ai mk 7, the spares (lifetime of the 3GHz magnetron were only some hours at this date for 6-7kW), the personal for maintenance were transported thanks to two Sunderland.
Two beaufighter were operational to defend the USS ohio with 3GHz radars. Fumerton has taken one of the new beaufighter IF S/N V8268 who was modified to be fit with Ai Mk 7 radar at the Telecommunications Flying Unit (TFU).
The Santa Maria miracle : everybody knew how vital was USS ohio for the issue of the war) but nobody knows that the injured tanker helped by RN destroyers was saved during the August 14/15, 1942 night by radars.
At the end of the August 14, 1942, 15 Italian bombers (leaded by col. Ravazonni, one of the best pilot of the Italian air forces) took off from Sicily with very efficient torpedo. Park was warned by radars operators (some radars like GCI or ChL modified could be not jammed or RN centimetric radars).
Park has phoned from AHQ to squadron 89 and asked for Reeves and Fumerton to take off immediately ("there's a little job to Comiso" he said, Comiso was an Sicilian Airborne. guided by 'unjammable' GCI other RDF transmitting to decoy the jammers, the two beaufighters shot down two italian bombers near to attack the USS Ohio. Thos one was flanked with two destroyers (and after one) and towed by another one succeeded with spitfire and guns protection to enter in the harbour at 8 on the morning.
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Dear labat,
Interesting points, though on some minor details I stand to differ. I sent you a personal message to establish direct contact by private email.
Ninton
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My name is Gordon Rolls and I was NCO i/c Radio Relay at Dingli but based at RAF Il-Qortin, Nadur Gozo from Feb1966 until August 1968 and yes it was located in its own building a little away from the other sites on Dingli. I cannot remember too much about the Dingli end as I also had two J/T's who used to stay on Malta.
An earlier post mentioned the reason that RAF Il Qortin closed because of a problem with something in Paris ?. Not the reasom I'm afraid. RAF Il Qortin opened in the late 50's with two distinct experimental systems. The traffic route ( 5/7 Unit ) was the first to use E.D.C. (Error Detection and Correction). The system for transmission was called F.P.I.S ( Foreward Propogation Ionospheric Scatter ). Using the "F" layer of the Ionosphere (Remains roughly stationary) the idea was to use low VHF frequencies (Just under 40MHz) to overcome the problems of the HF range being overcrowded. The link being to RAF St. Lawrence on the Isle of Wight. The plan being to shoot up a lot of power and hopefully enough of that reflected off the "F" layer would reach the other end. The system was placed on the coast at both ends to avoid interference from buildings etc. The reason Nadur, Gozo was chosen rather than a place on Malta as the original plan was to have a further link from Malta to Cyprus. The Radio Relay equipment to Malta was in place as was all the ducting etc to install this next part of the system. Then along came satellites and the whole idea was cancelled with Il Qortin closing early in 1969.
Incidentally, I also knew Tony Abela from a second tour in Malta at Benghaisa Transmitters
One other reason why I posted is that I am also trying to find out about the reflecting station at RAF Wardija for an old friend.
If we can help each other please get back to me
Regards
Gordon Rolls Nadur,Gozo.
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Hi Gordon, Bill 247 here and have just read your post . As for your post i am afraid that i cannot help you regarding the relay systems between Malta and uk. I started this post a few years ago to try and find info on the RAF No 504 Radar Unit which my Late Dad served on as a Radar Operator at Dingli Cliff Malta
Over the years i have has help from various people on this website and else where .As for RAF Wardija RAF No 841 Radar Unit from around 1942/43 I believe that it was a G C I radar station .
I would however like to say that thanks to Anne ( a few messages above ) I have now found after over 3 yrs of searching the exact location at Dingli cliff of my Late Dad 's Radar Unit RAF No 504 COL Radar . In September this year i went out to Malta and saw the location of the RAF No 504 Radar and the barrack buildings where my Dad was located during his almost 3 yrs on the Island ( November 1940 May 1943 )
My Sincere thanks to scrimnet for allowing me to use this site and to everyone especially dee for all their assistance and support . Thanks to all Bill 247
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Bill I am so glad that all turned out well for you. ;D It must have been a really emotional pilgramage for you! Take care and I hope that it has helped you understand your dad and that you now feel you know him even better. RIP Bills dad who was an essential part of the RAFs effort in Malta.
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Dee, Thankyou ever so much for your post and also a Huge Thanks for all your help when i started this quest which was much appreciated. Yes it was an emotional rollercoaster but i had my partner jean with me . Today being remembrance Sunday at the 2 minutes silence my thoughts turned to Malta and the location of My Late Dads Radar and his comrades . As i said above it was thanks to Anne who's Dad served with mine that both Major Tony Abela who has been helping me and i were finally able to conclude this quest . Dee, I have been emailing the various people both here in the UK and also in Malta for their help which has been immense . The main problem we found was lack of Air Ministry material to help us . Any how Dee , Thank you again for all your help and i hope that you can continue to assist people like you helped me in the early days . Take care and keep well.
Warmest wishes .
Bill
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There was a disc of photos on sale on ebay the other day and I thought about you but was in a hurry it might be worth seeing if they are still on there as you never know....
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Dear All,
I know very little about WWII in Malta, or how to reply on this forum for that matter, but have just been on a course staying near Dingli and thought I would pass some info on for what it is worth. The course was held at Villa Psaigon near Dingli (google maps: Psaigon, Triq IL-Buskett, Dingli, Malta) not far from and within sight of the radar station at Dingli cliffs. It is now primarily used as a youth centre. The caretaker of the building told us that it had been used by the British during the war, I think he said for intercepting German messages. The building is a very solid square fortress-like building with an inner courtyard and thick walls, it has two floors. The front entrance has big wooden coachhouse-like doors with a small door in the main door that you can climb through to enter without opening the big doors. The doors are protected with metal barred gates in front. The main room which we used had a heavy steel safe-like door. The door at the rear of the building was I think also steel, secured by pulling across heavy bolts. The caretaker told us that (in true Maltese style) there was a functioning water reservoir under the courtyard. He was very surprised that he had not found the old air-raid shelters, which he was convinced must be there somewhere. I hope this information be of some help.
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Dear All who were following this topic I am proud to inform you that my Book on the covered topic and more is now available from Malta's leading Bookstores. You browse on this link: https://www.facebook.com/events/503476083095273/?fref=ts
Thanks to rootchats and you who helped me tracing different leads to confirm many facts.
As far as Villa Psiagon I can confirm that though I still looking for official documents, a next door neighbour who is now 88 years old, told me that when he was a Admiralty Constabulary Sergeant he used to drive his Superintendent every morning to Villa Psaigon, the Super picks a sealed box with cypher messages and deliver it to Lascaris Ops Rooms.
The bases of the wooden masts to mount the antenna are still visible, one on each side of Villa Psiagon.
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Thanks for the reply on Villa Psaigon. If anyone has any info on the air raid shelters there I'd love to be able to pass it on to the caretaker.
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I am posting this for a new member Madliena who clicked the report to moderator button instead of the reply button.
I was a fighter plotter at H.Q MALTA SECTOR from 1956-61 radar stations reporting down to sector. 1st tas salg station s.e. of malta , type 5 radar.2nd dingli station s.w. malta type 14 , both c.h.e.l. 3rd station n.w malta type 7 high looking.
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Hi its Bill 247 back again .
just to say again a huge thank you for all the assistance i received in my research of my late fathers radar unit on Malta .
Since my last time on the website which was 2012 i have found that 1 post has gone missing and that is the post from myreed which was very interesting . Mr Scrimmnet can you shed any light on this person . I tried to PM him but it said that they could not find him. i know he was on my forum last year as he left a message for me. Any info please.
You will have read my good friend Major Tony Abelas post about his book.
this book Launch took place at Dingli Radar Station on 29th of March last year and having as tony puts it been his inspiration and the person who assisted him with a lot of information for his book i was delighted to have been invited to attend this marvelous event.
i also made a speech as the representative of all the Radar crews who served on Malta in WW2 and my father and all the other crews were foremost in my mind at that time.
i am delighted at the responce i had from the members and a huge thanks to you all.
Mr Scrimmnet i will be interested in your reply.
Thanks again .
Bill.
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Am off to Malta in April :) but I dont think Dingli Cliffs will be on the list of visits as I dont have enough time there. Will be good to be on the island though :)
Dee
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Hi Dee, thanks for that info , I am sorry that you wont have enough time to get to Dingli cliffs as it all depends on where you are staying on the Island. From Sliema it is about an hour on the bus to get there. I do hope that you will have a good time and also some good weather.
There is other RAF Stuff there at the Aviation Museum at the old RAF Ta kali airfield.
Any way Dee what ever you do have a great time.
Bill.
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Thanks for that. Will certainly take that in :) I am not much of a beach bunny! :)
Dee
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I enlisted I the RAF (malta) 9th August 1956 as a fighter plotter. I was stationed at H. Q. M. SECTOR.
There were 3 radar stations reporting down to sector.
1st dingli station S.W.with type 14 radar.c.h.e.l.
2nd tas silg station S.E. with type 5 radar c.h.e.l.
3rd wardija station N.W. with type 7 high looking.
in 1961 all above stations ceased operations and control and reporting was done from
RAF MADLIENA radar station with a type 80 mk1 and 2 type 13 height finding radars.
Best regads,
F.X. ZARB
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Since my last time on the website which was 2012 i have found that 1 post has gone missing and that is the post from myreed which was very interesting . Mr Scrimmnet can you shed any light on this person . I tried to PM him but it said that they could not find him. i know he was on my forum last year as he left a message....
Hello Bill. I have had a look but we do not appear to have a user called myreed on Rootschat. Are you sure that is the correct name and that it was on Rootschat not another forum?
Milly (Armed Forces Moderator)
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Hello Madliena ... welcome to Rootschat
:)
Milly
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Madliena, Thank you for your information, I think that the Radar at Dingli was RAF No 203 which was positioned near Tal -Pitkali. It stood behind the Restaurant on Dingli cliff. No 504 col ames was further down the cliff beside the AFM surveilance tower. if you walk out from dingli village you come to the road junction at the tower , to your left is the present white radar dome for civilian traffic . on your right at the corner is the old barracks where my dad and his colleagues were stationed, these are now houses for the maltese people. turn right and walk about 100 yards ( walk on the cliff top ) you will see a building with a hole in the roof that was 504 col from May 1943 till June 1944. stand on the cliff in the middle of the building and turn around to face the road. on the road in front of you from nov 1940 till april 1943 there was 2 buildings , a tx building for the transmitter and generator and a rx building which had the receiver and a small plotting area. behind the wall stood the radar gantry which had the radar array. my dad joined the crew in London in September 1940 and travelled with the crew to Malta and was on the top part of the cliff radar site till May 1943 then was moved to Egypt . The other radars i think were No 501 at Fort ta Silg and 841 at Wardija. if you are in Malta hope you got to the open day at dingli radar last march .
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Since my last time on the website which was 2012 i have found that 1 post has gone missing and that is the post from myreed which was very interesting . Mr Scrimmnet can you shed any light on this person . I tried to PM him but it said that they could not find him. i know he was on my forum last year as he left a message....
Hello Bill. I have had a look but we do not appear to have a user called myreed on Rootschat. Are you sure that is the correct name and that it was on Rootschat not another forum?
Milly (Armed Forces Moderator)
Thanks for looking and for your time Milly Bill
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Hi to all.Its Bill here and once again many Thanks to all for there assistance, Thanks also millymcb for her help and I found the person I was looking for. I have had a few chats to Mr Ron Saunders who also served on this Radar unit RAF No 504 at Dingli cliff Malta during WW11. Ron was able to give me a lot of interesting information on my late Father during their time together on this important Radar unit on Malta during WW11
Sadly however I have to say that Ron sadly passed away in May at 96 years of age. Both Maj. Tony Abela and I have conveyed our condolences to Ron's family and we also feel that at this time that Ron was our only survivor from this Radar crew of 504.
I have one other plea and that is if anyone knows of anyone who served on this Radar Station in Malta RAF No 504 AMES to please get in touch . Also anyone from Monmouth Wales , I am trying to find anyone who knew Fl Lt / Sq Ldr John Mervyn R Sutton who was the first Commanding Officer of this Unit from 1940 to Early 1942 could you get in touch.
thank you for reading this letter and your time.
Bill
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This isn't exactly what you are after, Bill, but might add some background. Make sure you wander through the 5 volumes of photos (links at the top of the page).
http://www.kenripper.co.uk/vic/vic_album02.htm (http://www.kenripper.co.uk/vic/vic_album02.htm)
Ken
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Hi Ken, thank you so very much for your reply, yes you are correct that this was not the reply that I was hoping for. However Vic's story makes compelling reading and what a fantastic story told in pictures it is. From his early flight in a Lysander which was used to pick up our spies from grass fields behind enemy lines to fighting the enemy in his spitfire. I had seen some of the pictures before ,however a lot of these pictures I have never seen and thank you for sending them to me. This gentleman should never be forgotten.
Again may I ask the rootschat family for assistance in finding anyone who served on Radar ( RDF ) on Malta from 1940 - 1943 to please get in touch with me on this website. I am particularly interested in anyone who served with my Father Cpl. William Crawford on RAF No 504 radar at Dingli Cliff in Malta during the dates above. I have already been in touch with 2 relatives of the crew of this radar unit through this website and I am sure that there must be others so please get in touch .
Thanks again for your time and a massive thanks to Ken for VIc' story.
Moderator comment: Please note that for privacy protection, details of people who may still be living should not be posted on Rootschat. Anyone wishing to make contact can use the Rootschat Private Message system once they have made three posts on the forum
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To the moderator, my apologies for the last email regarding the name mention .
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Hi all, I joined rootschat a few years ago as I was looking to try to find the location of my late father's radar unit in Malta . I had put appeals in the two Maltese newspapers with some success and had emailed various people both in Malta and here in the UK without too much success. I had some information but it would not give me a location . I started this search in 2008 . In 2009 and still struggling to find the location at Dingli cliff of the 504 COL radar, I emailed the RAFA in London and was not expecting too much in return, They however passed my email to the Malta branch where it was picked up by Tony Abela. Over the next almost 3 yrs emails passed to and from Malta , I would send info to Tony and he would say that it was not on that site and he would send me information and I would be thinking NO that can't be right. This went on till in early 2012 when a lady from near London replied to my rootschat appeal and mentioned that her Father served on that Radar unit as a Radar. Operator and knew my Father and better still he was still alive although in his 90's.
Tony made the first contact then I made contact with this lady and eventually asked if I could speak with her Father on the phone and it was arranged , During our call I learned so much more about my Father's time in Malta and about the Radar at Dingli cliff. In September 2012 my partner Jean and I went to Malta and we met up with Tony again as I had met him before when I was on the Island.
Tony took us to Dingli Cliff and showed us the exact position as to where the radar No 504 COL being the one that my Father served on as a Radar op on Malta for almost Three yrs had stood and also showed us the building on the lower cliff which is still standing today. The radar was moved from the cliff top to the lower level in 1943. Tony had also managed to locate a map of where the radars stood so we knew we were in the right spot. 504 COL was a low looking radar and one of the first Three Chain Overseas Low Radars ever to be sent outside of the UK . At this time Tony mentioned that it was his intention to write. A book about the Radars on Malta during WW2 , this was something which had never been done before . In March 2014 Tony had finished his book and Jean and I were invited to attend the launch of the book , I was also asked if I would make a speech as the representative of all the Radar crews who were on Malta like my Father between 1940--1944.
On the 29th of March at the present Radar site and In front of around 200 invited guests Tony made the first speech , I made the second speech as the representative of the Radar crews which took about Three and a Half minutes and was well received and the tourism minister made the Final speech. Having said goodbye to Tony , Jean and I went back to Dingli cliff on our own for me to be able to stand at the exact location where my Father had been during WW2 a bit of an emotional time for me . When I returned home I spoke to the gentleman again by phone and he told me that my Father and he and other Radar crew were involved in the rescue of a downed British airman. He had been shot down and after ejecting from his plane he had landed in the water not far from the lower cliffs where he managed to swim to the rocks. A search party from 504 & 242 Radar Units searched the area but ocould not find him In the dark. However they found him the next morning and a rope rescue party was formed and lowered an officer down to the airman who was also wounded and they hauled both men up to the cliff top, I was told that both this gentleman and my Father were on the edge of the cliff lowering and raising the rope along with other crew with their South African Officer beside them. I believe that the Airman survived after a spell in hospital.
During my search there were many occasions when I thought I would never find where the 504 Radar was located and I put in appeal after appeal on The Rootschat website and time after time members would come back with suggestions as to where to try next or they knew someone who could maybe help. This was great as it always gave me hope that one day someone would find the missing part of the jigsaw and if I had not been on rootschat then I would have missed this lady and would never have spoken to her father who served in the RAF like my Father and would have missed finding where my Father served on Malta as he had also confirmed the location to us . Sadly her Father passed on last year ,however I will never forget the phone calls which were fantastic and sadly I believe this gentleman may have been the last survivor of RAF Radar No 504 COL sited at Dingli Cliffs. He will never be forgotten.
Rootschat is a wonderful site and has fantastic people who are far more knowledgable than I am and I know that thank you is never enough , so please keep up the great work that you do .
You gave me great hope and assistance , I know that you will assist others , Thank you one and all.
Bill Crawford
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Thanks for sharing your story Bill. It is lovely to hear of your trip and the part Rootschatters have played in helping you find out more about your father's RAF days.
Milly
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The Radar Station at Dingli Cliffs Malta today
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b365/greenrover/radar%20at%20dingli%20ciffs_zpsfszebe1j.jpg)
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Hi Rover, Thank you very much for the picture of the present Civilian & Military Radar which is at Dingli Cliff today. This radar is on the site of the RAF No 242 AMES Radar unit which was located here from June 1940 till around 1944 and was under the Command of Flt Lt Clem Jones from Wales.
Most of the equipment on that unit was in Tunnels underground , the Lister generators , transmitters and receivers, the only part above ground was the standby equipment which was housed in a building about 100 yards away. The antenna was two 90 foot towers with the transmitter and receiver antenna on the top. The Radar unit my Father worked on is about 400 yards further along the cliff from this station and was the RAF No 504 unit from November 1940 till May 1943 when he was located to Egypt.
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Hello it's Bill Crawford from Glasgow here once more and again my most sincere thanks to all the Rootschatters who assisted me before.
I am once again asking for some help on this subject, I am looking to find anyone who may have served on the RAF radar No 504 AMES or their relatives . This radar was located at Dingli cliff on Malta during WW2. through this website we were lucky and found a gentleman who served with my Father on this radar unit and the relative of the Second C.O who commanded this unit from 1942 till 1943. I would also ask if their is anyone who reads this appeal who's father served in Malta with the RAF on radar during WW2 to get in touch as we are looking to try to find pictures of these units on Malta at this time.
The radar units we are trying to find anyone from during this time are RAF radars No 241, 242, 504 at Dingli 314. 501 at Fort Ta-Silch and 502 at Madliena . Any assistance would be most welcome.
Thanks again to everyone for all their help .
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Bill
Discovered this thread during an initial trawl investigating AMES on Malta in which my father served. I have a photo album which contains about 30 photos of 233, 283 and 314 AMES. They are mainly personnel. 314 is specifically described as St Paul's Bay and there is a (fairly poor quality) site photo.
I've attached the best as a sampler.
For reference, album also cover 233 in Habbaniya, Iraq, 1942 and 283 Syracuse Italy 1943.
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Johnxyz Firstly my apologies for the delay in sending you a reply, This picture of the crew from 283 Ames is amazing , the quality is fantastic. I was reading through the book by my friend Maj Tony abella about 283 Ames. It was formed on 14th April 1943 under the Admin of RAF Ta Qali and operated from Marfa point till November 1943 whence it was moved to Peninsula Della Maddalena in Sicily and was disbanded in October 1944. It arrived in Malta under the command of Pilot Officer Morgan and consisted of another 24 crew. The technical and domestic sites were about 500 yards apart and they had transportable RDF equipment with 2 Lister generators. there was no Service policemen available and guard duties were carried out by the Radio Operators. 2 ME210s circled the Radar unit on the 19th of May but did not attack it. Fl Lt Morgan was hospitalised between 8-20 th June and Fl Lt Walker of 241Ames from Fort Ta Silch took command for that time. Various Senior RAF personnel visited the station but on the 30th July Air Vice Marshall Keith Park made a surprise visit and congratulated the crew on the work they were doing. During June various football matches were played between 283 and 314 Ames from Qawra and swimming was also a general pastime . Group Captain Tyrell from RAF Ta Qali on the 18 July attended a units dance at 283 which proved very successful and was enjoyed by all. A football match was played against RASC and 283 won 2-1. On the 8th of September a 12 hour maintenance program was undertook and it was found that the goniometer pointer was about 30 degrees out of line and this was repaired by the mechanics . This unit on the 5th of November 1943 was asked to close down and at 0943 am 283 Ames Radar unit was turned off for the Final time , Its duty on Malta completed.
John , I am not Sure how much you have found out about 283 Ames , howevever I hope that I may have filled in a small corner of the Radar Unit on which your father served.
I am wondering if it is possible for you to send a picture of 314 Ames and one of any of the crew if possible.
Thanks again for your time and that wonderful photo of the crew of 283Ames , They will never be forgotten.
Best regards
Bill.
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Bill
PM sent
John
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Hi to everyone,
It is Bill here again asking for assistance . As most of you will remember I am trying to follow my Late Fathers RAF Service as a volunteer reservist during WW2. My Late Father served on Radar No 504 Ames in Malta during the Seige from November 1940 till April 1943 . I am trying to find out as to where he trained in Radar. He enlisted at RAF Padgate near Warrington on June 1940 for 6weeks and was put down for General Duties , However this was changed and he was sent to RAF Drem near Edinburgh to train as a Radio Operator . This was the name given to Radar Ops before Radar was mentioned. I have emailed people from EAst Lothian at War and also Yatesbury Association who tell me that there was no training area at RAF Drem yet it is on his Service record and he was at Drem for almost 7 weeks. I have tried the air historical branch who could offer no assistance. Any assistance would be gratefully received.
Thanks again to the rootschatters for previous assistance.
Bill.
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Have you considered RAF Dirleton which is close to Drem? Although it was a GCI site later in the war there seems to have been some earlier activity there:
http://www.wow.com/wiki/Dirleton
Imber
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RAF Drem was accomodation for Chain Home Low at Cockburmspath from Jan 1940.
https://canmore.org.uk/site/114046/cockburnspath-hawks-heugh-ground-control-intercept-centimetric-radar-station
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_Home_Low
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Hi Imber ,
Thank you very much for your email reply .
I had considered Dirlleton Radar before , However I had no idea that Dirleton was operational before around 1943 when it became a GCI unit.
My problem was that on my Fathers Service record all that is mentioned was that after his enlistment at RAF Padgate near Warrington was RAF Drem no mention of Radar Training , I sent his record back for some clarifications and when it came back there is writing which said Initial G D then sent to RAF drem to train as Radio op. I was told by the people from Yatesbury Association and East Lothian at War that there was no training facilities at Drem which I believe is correct which left me with a dilemma as to what my Father did at RAF Drem for about 6 weeks and if he did not train at Drem was he trained in Malta which is where he spent. Most of his Radar time Nov 1940-- April 1943.
Any how thank you for your assistance and your time.
Regards.
Bill 247
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Hi Ross,
Thank you for your reply to my appeal for assistance.
I know that there was a COL at Cockburnspath , However I presumed that it was maybe to far to travel to get to work so to speak , As I said to Imber I received my Fathers Record of Service from
RAF Cranwell and there was no mention of any training on it , I sent it back asking for some clarification on various on the whole record if they could . Back it came and between My Fathers enlistment at RAF Padgate and RAF Drem was these words , initially meant for GD , Then set to RAF Drem to train as Radio Op. I had emailed East Lothian at War and also Yatesbury Association and both mentioned that there was no training facility of that nature at Drem, Imber also mentioned Dirleton Radar as possible training , however not sure if that was a COL Unit as after these Two bases my Father was sent to Malta from NOV 1940 --- April 1943 on No 504 COL AMES type 5 Radar at
Dingli Cliff.
Again thank you so very much for this post and the other post on the WW2 very much appreciated information .
Kindest Regards
Bill247
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Do not get confused by the abbreviations CHL/COL/CH/CO/CHEL/COEL they are effectively the same kit with only a ffew mods to suit the deployed environment.
C is Chain and describes how they are operated
H is Home as opposed to O - Overseas. It mostly defined the temperature and humididty range that the kit was expected to operate in
The last part is the important bit
Nothing means it was a long range set eg 200+ miles but at that range it had a blind spot at low altitude. The closer you got to the transmitter the smaller the altitude blind spot.
L is low and describes a set that was designed to fill the altitude blind spot described above but could not be used for accurate sealevel location.
EL is Extra Low and is usually preffixed by GL for Gun Laying. This was normally used by Army/RN/RAF round the coastal ports and estuary for the dual role of tracking mining/shipping stike aircraft and e-boats.
So Cockburnspath was a CHL rather than a COL but his experience would be similiar. Daily travel was not to and from Drem. The crew would be out on the site for a few days and nights at a time but at the end of the work week they would return to Drem for pay parade, clothing parade, naafi, welfare. mail call etc then after a few days back to the remote site.
Hardship tent or barrack accomodation was provided at the remote site along with trucked out meals but to prevent rebellion they needed R&R back at the closest RAF main base (and so the SWO could remind them what RAF life under his eye entailed).
Ross
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Ross,
Thanks as always is never enough with the information you have given,
I was beginning to give up hope that my Fathers R.O.S was correct and that someone had got it wrong .
I did remember years ago my Father always mentioned only 2 places he was at during WW2 and that was Drem and Malta.
I have to admit that I was a little disheartened when I learned that there was no training facilities at Drem and it was a case of where did my Father train if not at Drem.
However I have been as usual uplifted again by the rootschatters enthusiasm and I will someday travel from Glasgow over to Drem and onward to the CHL area at cockburnspath.
Again Ross my sincere grattitude for all your assistance.
regards
Bill.
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Ross,
I just remembered a Radar Unit picture I came across .
There was a picture of a Radar Unit on Coldingham moor which was a CHL.
Do you know if this was Cockburnspath Radar Unit or was that another Radar altogether.?
Bill 247.
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Sorry Ross , Wrong station.
Bill.
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Hi Bill
Not sure if this feed is still active, but my father was also in Malta posted at Dingli 1941-43. His name was Adam Hair and he was from Clydebank. He passed away in 2014, but we are in the process of transcribing his diaries, which he kept during his time there. My sister, brother & me are currently in Malta on holiday visiting all the places he has mentioned. We are going to try to get hold of the book Major Abela has written whilst we’re out here.