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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: kiwi jeanie on Thursday 12 August 10 10:32 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone - I am looking for some help here re my GGrandfather Robert Rice - who is he?!?! He married Jennette 'Janet' Edith Louisa Bradford on 18 Jan 1879 in Greytown, Wairarapa - no details except his occupation is a painter. They moved to Wellington at some stage as there are references to them living there in Papers Past - the marriage was very temptestuous and there are quite a few articles in the newspaper!! Accordingly to BDM NZ they had 6 children. (Janet Rice the daughter is my GGrandmother). Janet the mother remarried to Arthur Grant Kirkwood in 1921, and her marriage cert says that she was widowed on 21 November 1901. There is no reference in NZ BDM to any death that year, I ordered the NZ BDM death cert for the Robert Rice who died in 1895 but he is a farmer in Akaroa so not him. Janet lived in Woolwich, London at the 1871 census although she was only 11. Both her parents (William and Elizabeth) died before 1881 - her younger sisters (Charlotte, Mary and Helen) have gone into service at the 1881 census. There is a Robert Rice (soldier) living in Woolwich at the 1871 census and I'm wondering if they came to NZ together - she was only 18 when she got married, or perhaps she came to NZ with her older siblings - Elizabeth and William. Any help greatly appreciated .. I don't know what to do next!! 8)
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Hi Gina
Mmm ... no, there doesn't appear to be a death in New Zealand for your Robert RICE. ::)
What we need to establish now though, is Robert's place of birth and the year. Of course those details aren't shown on an 1879 NZ marriage certificate, but they will be recorded on the birth certificates for his children.
(Just the one birth printout, for one child, is all that is needed. ;))
~ Lu
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Accordingly to BDM NZ they had 6 children. (Janet Rice the daughter is my GGrandmother).
Hi again
Yes, six children (1879 - Robert Henry RICE / 1882 - William Arthur / 1884 - Mabel Mary / 1885 - Alfred Alexander / 1888 - Jennette Edith Louisa / 1890 - Susan Maud :
But did you notice these two other children on the birth index. ??
1896 - RICE - Joseph Reginald
Mother : Janet Edith Louisa
Father : N/R (name not recorded)
and ...
1903 - RICE - Doreen May
Mother : Janet Edith Louisa
Father : Joseph ??
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Sadly, three of the children died as infants. :'(
RICE - William Arthur - aged 7 weeks (age from BDM site)
Buried : 16 October 1882
C of E Section - Bolton Street Cemetery, Wellington
RICE - Alfred Alexander - aged 6 months
Buried : 7 January 1886
Cof E Section - Bolton Street Cemetery
RICE - Joseph Reginald - aged 10 months (age from BDM site)
Buried : 24 December 1896 (Death registered 1897)
Karori Cemetery, Wellington
Roman Catholic Section - Plot 1 I
Buried with her son Joseph, is Janet Edith Louisa KIRKWOOD
- 3 January 1936 - aged 74 years.
Cemetery record search at >> click on "Online Services"
http://www.wellington.govt.nz/
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Janet lived in Woolwich, London at the 1871 census although she was only 11.
There is a Robert Rice (soldier) living in Woolwich at the 1871 census and I'm wondering if they came to NZ together - she was only 18 when she got married, or perhaps she came to NZ with her older siblings - Elizabeth and William.
Hi Gina ... a few more snippets for you.
Seems this might be Janet's arrival in New Zealand ?
BRADFORD - Janet - age 19 - of Kent - Occ. Housemaid
Vessel : "Rakaia" - arrived Wellington - 8 October 1878
From FREE BMD (UK)
BIRTHS - Jan - 1860
BRADFORD - Janet Edith Louisa
Registered : Dover (Kent)
[Woolwich formed part of Kent until 1889. ]
~ Lu
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... and a few more. :D
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
"Evening Post" - 4 June 1940 - Deaths
Notice for Robert RICE - s/o late Mrs J.E.L. KIRKWOOD and brother of Mabel, Janet, Maud and Dorrie.
(I assume "Dorrie" is the child Doreen, born in 1903 ? )
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
"Evening Post" - 7 February 1922 - Magistrate's Court
Janet KIRKWOOD granted a separation from her husband ...
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Hi Gina
I wondered whether you had checked any electoral rolls for Robert RICE ?
Somebody on here may be able to assist with a lookup of the CD for the years 1893 / 1896 ?
The PapersPast articles make for interesting (though very sad) reading. :(
Perhaps the 1886 item is significant (where Janet states she believes her husband is about to desert her) ??
Although obviously he stayed on for a while longer, with 2 further children being born.
In 1891 there's an accident reported on a ship at Wellington which concerns a Robert RICE who is hospitalised. ??
A little difficult to know whether this is you man.
~ Lu
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... just these too (though maybe you've already spotted them) ? ;D
"Evening Post" - 11 October 1883 - page 3 / column 1
Bankruptcy Notice - Robert RICE - of Wellington, labourer.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
"Evening Post" - 25 February 1893 - page 4 / column 2
Advertisment: Mrs RICE has started in the crockery and furniture business.
Mrs Janette RICE and Co. - next to the White Swan Hotel, Cuba Street.
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Lu - you are AMAZING!! Can't wait to go through it all when I have a moment - it is my son's birthday tomorrow so I have lots to do today!! :D
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The 1893 Rolls don't seem to help much. Janet is listed as a married woman resident in Tasman Street, Wellington Electorate. Robert as a labourer in Mitchelltown, Wellington Suburbs Electorate. Can't help with 1896. Is Tasman St in Mitchelltown or were they already not together at that point?
Alan
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From Google maps, Tasman street is 4.1kms from Mitchelltown
John B
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Hi Gina
Yes, just take time to digest it all. :D
[I know very well the effort needed to organise birthday parties for small boys. Enjoy. ;D ]
~ Lu
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Cheers Alan and John :)
Tasman Street (suburb of Mt. Cook) is near to the Basin Reserve (cricket ground) ... and runs through to the suburb of Newtown.
The area of Mitchelltown is out to the West of Wellington at the top end of the sometimes notorious Aro Street. Quite a hike between the two places back in the 1890's. ;)
~ Lu
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Quite a hike between the two places back in the 1890's. ;)
But in 1950 our primary school class used to walk further, once a week from Kelburn School to Mt Cook School and return, to attend Cooking and Woodwork classes ;D
John B
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Tee, hee, John ... thems were the days. ;D
I'll take a look at some later rolls / directories to see if Robert RICE is still around.
~ Lu
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Thank you so much to everyone. I couldn't keep away and have had a quick look although I should be doing other things!! I can't believe how quickly you found everything .. how did you find the ship Lu? Also how did you find that that Janet was buried with her son .. when I look at the link it doesn't tell me that .. what am I missing? I will order a birth cert (I didn't realise that would have the info) and hopefully that will answer the question as to where Robert is from which will be great!! There are a few of them and a few of us trying to find them!! Hopefully it is not Ireland (which is where one of them is from) as I haven't had much luck with any research there. Also how do you access the electoral rolls . do you need to have a disc? Have a great weekend everyone .. it looks like it is going to be a stormy one 8)
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Hi Gina
Here's the link to the "Rakaia" (1878) passenger list.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ourstuff/Rakaia.htm
[This is from the "Denise and Peter's" shipping / passenger list, website. You can find the search link for this and other passenger-list websites, in the Resources section of this board.] Unfortunately not able to see anything for a Robert RICE arriving in NZ.
Burials - (Janet and her infant son) : Was a tad curious as to why Janet's other babies had had Church of England burials, and wee Joseph, a Roman Catholic one. On checking Janet's cemetery listing, I noted the plot number was the same as for Joseph. ;) [Some NZ cemetery websites have a beaut feature whereby you can simply click on a link to find who else is buried in a particular plot - it doesn't though apply to the Wellington cemeteries database.]
~ Lu
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Also how do you access the electoral rolls . do you need to have a disc?
Early electoral rolls and the Wise's Directories covering all of NZ are in microfiche format, and can be accessed at most larger libraries. [Check library websites > catalogue + genealogy ... to see what holdings they have. ]
The NZSG produces Electoral CD's - 1881 and 1893 and the recently-launched 1896, which you can purchase if you so desire ... but again, larger libraries often have copies you can use ~ or you can simply just search the microfiche versions of the rolls. ;)
~ Lu
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Thanks Lu ... I can see I'm going to have to get myself to a library!! Still wondering how you found the Rakaia .. did you look at each ship individually or was there an easy short-cut? LOL I hope so!! 8)
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:) Here's the "short cut".
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ourstuff/
This site features a "search by name" facility.
~ Lu
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.... she was only 18 when she got married, or perhaps she came to NZ with her older siblings - Elizabeth and William.
Meant to ask earlier ... do you know whether Elizabeth and William actually came to NZ ?
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No .. all I know is that Janet married Robert in Jan 1879 and that she was in England in 1871 with her family. Her father is William Bradford and mother Elizabeth Sophia Mackenzie. William was born in Valenciennes France (British subject) in Sep 1817 and I have sent away for his birth cert. He was a soldier. According to the census Elizabeth was born in Kingsbury, Devon although to date I have not found a record of this. They were both deceased by the 1881 census. Bye ... ;D going out for the night .. so had better get ready!!
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RICE - Joseph Reginald - aged 10 months (age from BDM site)
Buried : 24 December 1896 (Death registered 1897)
Karori Cemetery, Wellington
Roman Catholic Section - Plot 1 I
Buried with her son Joseph, is Janet Edith Louisa KIRKWOOD
- 3 January 1936 - aged 74 years.
Cemetery record search at >> click on "Online Services"
http://www.wellington.govt.nz/
Hi Gina
Maybe you've already discovered this ? Also in RC Plot 1 I
are other members of your family ... and photos of the headstones.
[Janet KIRKWOOD is not actually named, but is mentioned as "loving mother" with date of her death shown. ]
You can access the photos by searching on Jeanette SPRING and Peter Bradford GRANT.
~ Lu
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Fantastic Lu - I didn't know that was there. The loving mother is Janet's daughter also called Janet Edith Louisa - confusing I know!! I have ordered her birth cert so hopefully will have Robert Rices country of origin soon 8)
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Sorry loving mother is Janet Bradford/Rice - confused myself!! ???
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Thanks to everyone for their wonderful help .. especially you Lu!! The birth cert has arrived and he is from Belfast, Ireland .. born 1850 or 1849 - (he is 38 years old at 15 March 1888.) I see that Belfast is considered either County Down or Antrim depedning on what part, so will investigate further - there is one Robert Rice that is from County Down that I have been sent info on but the DOB is not quite right - although I know there are lots of mistakes along the way so who knows!! Bye for now
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hello to you both. I stumbled across your posts through a google search as I start my journey back through the Rice and Bradford genealogies. Robert and Janet's daughter Mabel Mary Rice married Stuart Lewis and they were my great grandparents. I am very appreciative of the information you have shared in your discussions to date. Can I stay in touch with you regarding any information that may not be shared in this discussion? Looking forward to further discussions.
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Hi mokihi - i am away on holiday at the moment and will be home on Jan 22nd. I have a lot of information about the family and would love to talk/email you. My email is (*)
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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Great to receive your reply. I have sent you a personal message and look forward to further discussions.
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Hi This is the first time I have been on this site so not sure exactly how it works but am wanting to contact you as I believe we are related. My grandmother was Dorreen youngest daughter of Janet Edith Louisa Bradford. Look forward to hearing from you PS don't know what the private message system is.
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Hi - I have sent you a personal message with my email address :D
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This is the first time I have been on this site so not sure exactly how it works
[...]
PS don't know what the private message system is.
Hi Suzzy17
Welcome to Rootschat :)
To activate your Personal Message system you need to make three posts. So you'll need to make two more posts and then you'll be able to read the private message that Kiwi Jeanie sent you.
So two more messages... even two smileys will do :-)
All the best
Beg
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Thanks beg 8)
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:o Sorry I haven't been able to email you I am having problems with my email Icannot believe the timing but should be sorted tomorrow night Sorry
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3rdpst so that I can try the private message thing
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I have located Robert Rice - he returned to England after abandoning his family and had at least three more illegitimate children named after his original children, Susan, Robert Henry and Mabel. Even though Janet said he was dead in the documention of her second marriage 1901 related to the time period when he left her (maybe two years later as he was definitely in Wellington in 1898). I have found this poor relief document of his mother Mary Ann Doyle when Robert was six years old. I would appreciate some extra eyes trying to help me decipher it. First part is where she lived, mentions her marriage date, death of Robert and when she received poor relief two weeks after his death. Who do you think saw Robert five weeks before he died? Mary Ann is referred to a pauper - I think it says her father is called Robert but he is definitely William from her marriage documentation. Can anyone make out what Lee ... ending with James Simpson says - looks like she married him in Dublin? Might explain why Robert said he was from London, Dublin and Belfast on different children's birth certificates. Looks like she didn't know her mother, father was born in the army and comes from Chatham (?) but not known there. Her husband had two brothers in the USA - never heard him talk about any relatives and never met any? Also is Michael perhaps a son before she married Robert? Hoping for some help here ;D ;D
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attachment
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has this uploaded - I am getting error messages
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Hi .... yes it has uploaded. ;)
But despite re-reading through this thread, I'm a bit puzzled as to how the document relates to your finding Robert RICE.
Can you please give the source of the document ?
~ Lu
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she is his mother - he is the child aged 6 - putting it up for the is other family members who have contact through this post - document on Ancestry - poor relief records :D
Robert is the son born 1851 who I was originally looking for - his father is also called Robert.
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Hi ... yes I figured it related to the mother and it might have been from ancestry (but it's guesswork as to "what parish" and "what county" the record is from.)
So who do you need help from ? Or is this posted solely for the benefit of "the other family members who have contact through this post" (thread). ???
~ Lu
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... I would appreciate some extra eyes trying to help me decipher it. First part is where she lived, mentions her marriage date, ...
Can anyone make out what Lee ... ending with James Simpson says - looks like she married him in Dublin?
I don't think the word is "Lee" ;D
I think it reads like this
> ... "5 weeks before he died.
See Book [? might be # - the abbrev. for "number" ? ] 294
... little of RICE ...a first husb. [husband] Jas. SIMPSON.
Paupers. Par [? parent ] Robt. DOYLE of ....?... Chatham.
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~ Lu
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Hi Lu - there is a lot more that I haven't posted that supports this is Robert's mother - names of his siblings, names of his children (first with his wife Janet and then with his defacto Frances Ganderton nee Deeks), birth information of the children, wedding of his parents, siblings of his father, etc.
This record is from Whitechapel which is where he was in 1851 living with his parents and siblings. He returned and was in Whitechapel at the 1901 census living with his landlady who he had three children with which he named for his original children - she (Frances) then returned to her husband with Robert's children and they are all living together at the 1911 census. I'm not sure where Robert is but he is possibly in Wandsworth (jail or workhouse) - the age isn't quite right but it fits with his unreliable alcoholic personality. Robert died in Whitechapel in 1928. Siblings and new children are backed up by the GRO which now names the mother on the search index. There is also a tree on Ancestry with his second partner further corroborating the fact of his new children. It is very evident this is Robert's mother. The other family members can contact me for the other documentation - what I really wanted help with is deciphering the writing on the document - I can't make it all out - predominantly what I mentioned in my first post - thanks for your help :-*
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Hi ... all good ... thanks for the explanation.
Just that it was an old thread with no activity for a couple of years, and as I'd helped on the earlier portion of the thread, was curious to know what had transpired in the meantime.
Obviously you've been busy digging further ... and have come up with some great results.
Well done. :)
~ Lu
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Further to my Reply 41 ... "See Book 294" :
Seems it might be a reference to possible earlier dealings with Mary Anne RICE (or DOYLE or maybe SIMPSON) ???
~ Lu
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Thanks Lu - yes it is a page number - I have found her marriage in Dublin at the age of 15 - what sad lives they all had. :'(