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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: canberraterry on Thursday 12 August 10 08:22 BST (UK)
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Greetings from Australia,
I am a novice trying to trace my ancestors in Ireland. I have had some success with those from Northern Ireland, but I have become stuck with these two, my great grandfather and great great grandfather.
Both share the same name, and both were accountants at Guinness Mahon Bank in Dublin.
The elder died in Dublin in 1847 of typhus when the younger was only 5, and all that we know of him apart from his prime employment at the bank is that he taught at his church's Bible school.
The younger was born in Dublin about 1842, and died on 1 December 1895 of complications following what must have been a very early colostomy operation. He married an Isabella Brabazon (1839-1923) (sometimes spelled Brabason) and they had 6 children, of whom John Wesley SMITH (Born Bray, Co Wicklow 9 September 1878, died Adelaide South Australia 6 February 1961) was my grandfather. Lady Lilly Anderson CBE of Derry was another of the children.
I am wondering if any other chatters have any knowledge of this family?
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dont know if it's a coincidence but there's a marriage of a Henry Elliot Smith to an Isabella in Dublin (CofI parish of St. Peter) in 1867 - but her surname is Browne ?
see: link (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/b61c2d0926685) (www.irishgenealogy.ie)
Shane
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Children of Henry Elliott Smith and Isabella Anne Browne listed in IGI (www.familysearch.org)-
1. William Henry born 8 Feb.1868 Co.Dublin (Dublin North page 608 in civil register)
2. Emily Jane born 10 Apr.1870 Dublin, Co. Dublin
3. Isabella Anne born 7 Mar.1872 Dublin, Co. Dublin (Dublin North page 662 in civil register)
4. Lydia Elizabeth born 31 Aug.1874 Dublin, Co.Dublin (Dublin North)
5. Florence Henrietta born 11 Sept.1876 Ireland
Marriage 25 Mar.1867- Henry's father William
details from LDS Pilot site added in red
http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=home
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as is the birth of John Wesley Smith to the other Henry & Isabella (in the extracted birth collection) :
Name: John Wesley Smith
Birth Date: 09 Sep 1878
Birthplace: Ireland
Father's Name: Henry E. Smith
Mother's Name: Isabella Anne Smith Brabason
Reference Number: v 2-2 p 893
Matching record on the Civil Index in Rathdown Reg. Distrct - which would fit with Bray.
Shane
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not sure if there a connection but the mention of Bray reminds me....
Brabazon was the family surname of Lord Meath, of Kilruddery House, which is just south of Bray Town.
Shane
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A little bit weird here,
It states Henry's father was William Smith and Henry was a locksmith (not accountant) in St Peters .
There is also a baptismal record for a Henry Elliott Smith bap 26/12/1841 in Dublin to William Smith same parish St Peters.
There is also a burial for William Smith in 1847 aged 25... Is the father William or Henry?
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A little bit weird here,
It states Henry's father was William Smith and Henry was a locksmith (not accountant) in St Peters .
There is also a baptismal record for a Henry Elliott Smith bap 26/12/1841 in Dublin to William Smith same parish St Peters.
There is also a burial for William Smith in 1847 aged 25... Is the father William or Henry?
My original thought was that there were two separate Henry Elliot Smith married to two separate Isabellas, even though that seemed like a remote possibility.. but those details ambyrne1 found (father dying when son aged about 5 etc) all seem to match up with the original post!
Shane
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Thank you all very much for your responses so far. They are very greatly appreciated.
According to family lore (which we all know is not authoritative), the father was definitely Henry Elliott Smith, and his son, also Henry Elliott, definitely married Isabella Brabazon. We have proof of this much at least. (She was a member of the extended family of the Earl of Meath). The marriage date of 1867 is in the right range for Henry Elliott (junior), as the first child was born in 1868, but the wife's name was definitely not Browne. The children listed for Henry and Isabella Browne share some similarities, but are not correct for my Henry Elliott (junior) and Isabella Anne, which were William 1868, Ida 1870, Florence 1872, Lily 1876 and John 1878. There is ample documentary evidence (captioned photos, correspondence etc) to confirm the name, so that family is definitely not my family.
The baptismal date of 26 December 1841 for Henry Elliott (junior) could be right (we thought about 1842), but again we have the problem of the father's name. The burial date of 1847 would be correct for our Henry's (junior) father, but the name and occupation appear incorrect. While I cannot definitely rule out the father being William, I do not believe that the occupation could possibly be correct.
I started this search thinking that Henry Elliott Smith must be an uncommon name, but apparently I was wrong! Anyway, thank you all again for your input so far, but I believe that the people found so far are from a different family.
Terry
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Maybe I'm missing something here but the way to sort out your family would be to get the marriage certificate for Henry Elliott Smith and Isabella Brabazon- would list father's name, marital status, etc.
You seem to have more details than were originally posted such as the names of children and years of birth- do you have their birth certificates or other documents?
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aghadowey,
Thank you for your perserverence. Sadly I do not have the marriage certificate, or even the date of the marriage, although I do have Isabella's parents' names: Rev John Vignoles Brabazon (7 April 1811-1899) and Mary Jefferson (1815-24 May 1855), and Rev John's parents: William Philip Brabazon (28 Oct 1783-13 Dec 1854) and Letitia Vignoles (12 July 1786-20 Dec 1859). But the family has nothing of Henry Elliott junior's parentage apart from what I have given.
The LDS Pilot site you listed has a reference to the correct Henry Elliott (junior) at Film No 101598 Vol 2 Page 555, DFN 4200680, Image 00495. Unfortunately I don't know how to take that further to see what it contains.
Terry
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I see three marriages for an Isabella Brabazon/Brabason on the BMD index in the right timeframe (1860s?).. but cannot find cross-match for any of them to a Henry Smith. Here's the basic details for ref :
Name: Isabella Georgina Cash Brabazon
Dublin North / 1863/ 5-168 (reg dist. - page-vol)
Name: Isabella Jane Brabazon
Mullingar / 1866 / 18-263
Name: Fanny Isabella Clarence Brabazon
Dublin South / 1862 / 5- 376
Shane
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Unfortunately I don't know how to take that further to see what it contains.
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See the topic Introduction to Irish Records (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html) for details on searching the BMD index, ordering certs etc...
Shane
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Do you have birth certificates for any of the children? baptisms?
Added- just found this website but it really doesn't provide more details than Shane has found-
http://www.brabazonarchive.com/Pages/Registered%20marriages%20from%20Ireland.htm
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I see three marriages for an Isabella Brabazon/Brabason on the BMD index in the right timeframe (1860s?).. but cannot find cross-match for any of them to a Henry Smith. Here's the basic details for ref :
Name: Isabella Georgina Cash Brabazon
Dublin North / 1863/ 5-168 (reg dist. - page-vol)
Name: Isabella Jane Brabazon
Mullingar / 1866 / 18-263
Name: Fanny Isabella Clarence Brabazon
Dublin South / 1862 / 5- 376
Shane
Isabella Georgina (nee Cash) Brabazon married 20 June 1863 Dublin to George Kennedy.
Isabella Jane Brabazon m.18 Dec.1863 to John Henry Moore
Fanny Isabella Clarence Brabazon m. 7 july 1862 James William Knott.
All three marriages with grooms listed on LDS Pilot site.
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Do you have birth certificates for any of the children? baptisms?
Added- just found this website but it really doesn't provide more details than Shane has found-
http://www.brabazonarchive.com/Pages/Registered%20marriages%20from%20Ireland.htm
Thank you. I have no birth certificates or baptism records for the children, just my grandmother's notes and some annotated photos.
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Here are the children you've listed- William 1868, Ida 1870, Florence 1872, Lily 1876 and John 1878. Are there exact dates of birth in your grandmother's notes?
There is no birth registration for an Ida Smith anywhere in Ireland in 1870 (searched 1870-1879).
One registration for a Florence Smith in 1872 (Dublin North)- Florence Edith Smith.
Lily (no births for Lily Smith in 1876) could be a nickname for Elizabeth and William and John would bring up many possiblities.
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I think you need to begin the search with actual verified records... starting Australia and working backwards step by step - i.e. death cert, marriage cert, birth cert etc...
....married an Isabella Brabazon (1839-1923) (sometimes spelled Brabason) and they had 6 children, of whom John Wesley SMITH (Born Bray, Co Wicklow 9 September 1878
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have you located Isabella or John. W. on the 1901 and/or 1911 census in Ireland ?
Shane
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I think you need to begin the search with actual verified records... starting Australia and working backwards step by step - i.e. death cert, marriage cert, birth cert etc...
have you located Isabella or John. W. on the 1901 and/or 1911 census in Ireland ?
Shane
Thanks Shane, that is the way I have been tackling it but I keep drawing a blank in relation to the elder of the two Henry Elliott Smiths and the younger's marriage to Isabella Brabazon.
Isabella is recorded in several documents but I can't confirm tonight that either of them is either census document as I am not in my office (It is late here). I will track them down tomorrow and get back to you. Thanks again for your help.
Terry
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taking a step to more recent connections for minute - what does John Wesley Smith's marriage cert show for father's details ?
Shane
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Here are the children you've listed- William 1868, Ida 1870, Florence 1872, Lily 1876 and John 1878. Are there exact dates of birth in your grandmother's notes?
There is no birth registration for an Ida Smith anywhere in Ireland in 1870 (searched 1870-1879).
One registration for a Florence Smith in 1872 (Dublin North)- Florence Edith Smith.
Lily (no births for Lily Smith in 1876) could be a nickname for Elizabeth and William and John would bring up many possiblities.
Thanks aghadowey, Lily was Lady Lily Anderson CBE, wife of Sir Robert Anderson of Londonderry, Florence married a Mr Semple, Ida Isobel (aka Idabel) never married but lived with her sister Lily, and John's DOB was 9 September 1878, but I don't have much else. I will go through Grandma's notes again and talk again with my last auntie who met them whilst a child, and get back to you tomorrow.
Terry
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Looks like Lily married Robert Newton Anderson-
ANDERSON, Sir Robert Newton, Knt... of Gortecar House, Co. Fermanagh; b. 1871; in. 1903 Lily E., dau. of Henry Elliott Smith, Esq., of Dublin. see here (http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/edward-walford/the-county-families-of-the-united-kingdom-or-royal-manual-of-the-titled-and-un-fla/page-9-the-county-families-of-the-united-kingdom-or-royal-manual-of-the-titled-and-un-fla.shtml)
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May have found something important- was Florences' husband named James Blackwell Semple and did they have a son called James Wesley Semple?
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May have found something important- was Florences' husband named James Blackwell Semple and did they have a son called James Wesley Semple?
In the family he was known only as Jim, and he and Florrie had two sons, one of whom was known as "Wesley" and the other if my memory serves me well was "Lloyd". The family migrated to Western Australia possibly in the early 1900's. I have yet to track them down.
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taking a step to more recent connections for minute - what does John Wesley Smith's marriage cert show for father's details ?
Shane
Shane, all I have for the marriage is a photograph of the record of the Parish Church of Drumachose (Limavady) which records the wedding of John W Smith and Ada (Adeline) Cunningham on 23 July 1913. His father is listed as "Henry Elliott Smith, Accountant deceased".
Terry
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Looks like Lily married Robert Newton Anderson-
ANDERSON, Sir Robert Newton, Knt... of Gortecar House, Co. Fermanagh; b. 1871; in. 1903 Lily E., dau. of Henry Elliott Smith, Esq., of Dublin. see here (http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/edward-walford/the-county-families-of-the-united-kingdom-or-royal-manual-of-the-titled-and-un-fla/page-9-the-county-families-of-the-united-kingdom-or-royal-manual-of-the-titled-and-un-fla.shtml)
Yes, that is the one. They lived in Victoria Street, Londonderry and then moved to Deanfield House, also in Derry. He had woollen mills I think, and his son Albert ("Bertie") was later Mayor of Derry.
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Florence married a Mr Semple....
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possible 1911 census record for James (Jim?) Semple, Florence & son James Wesley Blackwell - Casimir Rd, Rathgar (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rathmines___Rathgar_West/Casimir_Road/64663/)
Shane
(tnx A)
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Right, 1911 census lists her as Florence Henrietta Semple age 32 (c1879)-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rathmines___Rathgar_West/Casimir_Road/64663/
Ages in census can be off by a few years but here's her birth I found much earlier in this thread-
Children of Henry Elliott Smith and Isabella Anne Browne listed in IGI (www.familysearch.org)-
5. Florence Henrietta born 11 Sept.1876 Ireland
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He married an Isabella Brabazon (1839-1923) (sometimes spelled Brabason)
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There's a death of an Isabella Brabazon listed in the BMD Index in April-June Qtr 1923 :
Name: Isabella Brabazon
Registration District: Dublin South
Event Type: Death
Quarter and Year: Apr - Jun 1923
Age (at Death): 84 (est. year of birth: 1839)
volume 2 / page : 306
Not sure if this Isabella has become crossed with your one - but a death for a widow would be recorded in her married name (i.e. Smith).
Shane
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1928 London, England > Freemantle, Australia-
J. Semple (male) age 47
F.H. Semple (female) age 48
W. J. Semple (male) age 17
L.L. Semple (male) age 11
Leslie Lloyd Semple birth July/Sept.1916 Dublin South registration district volume 2 page 527
Mayors of Derry (city) - 1915 Robert N. Anderson, 1963 Albert Anderson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayor_of_Derry
Short biography of Albert Wesley Anderson (23 July 1907-1985)-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Anderson_%28politician%29
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Canberraterry
The following is a long shot
The Irish Times newspaper for the 27th January 1870 on Page 3 in the Law Report makes reference to a Robert William Elliott (Accountant) Insolvent employed by Messrs Guinness & Mahon at No.17 College Green , Dublin.
I clearly note the different surname but am still wondering.....
Regards Quaxer
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Canberraterry
The following is a long shot
The Irish Times newspaper for the 27th January 1870 on Page 3 in the Law Report makes reference to a Robert William Elliott (Accountant) Insolvent employed by Messrs Guinness & Mahon at No.17 College Green , Dublin.
I clearly note the different surname but am still wondering.....
Regards Quaxer
Quaxer,
That is a great bit of information. thank you. Family history is a bit vague here, but the second christian name of Elliott reputedly was in honour of an uncle (real or "adopted") who worked in Guinness Mahon Bank, possibly as a director, and was instrumental in assisting the younger one when his father died early. This Elliott may have been that one or a relative at least.
Terry
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Not sure if this Isabella has become crossed with your one - but a death for a widow would be recorded in her married name (i.e. Smith).
Shane
Thanks Shane,
On reflection I think that you are correct and that the dates for this Isabella have been incorrectly assumed for my Isabella.
Terry
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1928 London, England > Freemantle, Australia-
J. Semple (male) age 47
F.H. Semple (female) age 48
W. J. Semple (male) age 17
L.L. Semple (male) age 11
Leslie Lloyd Semple birth July/Sept.1916 Dublin South registration district volume 2 page 527
Mayors of Derry (city) - 1915 Robert N. Anderson, 1963 Albert Anderson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayor_of_Derry
Short biography of Albert Wesley Anderson (23 July 1907-1985)-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Anderson_%28politician%29
Thanks aghadowey, that is the correct family. I don't feel so bad now knowing that the records in relation to HE and Isabella Smith appear to be incomplete. Thank you very much for your efforts on my behalf.
Terry
Terry
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Following further research I now think that the mystery surrounding the missing records of the marriage of Henry Elliott SMITH and Isabella Anne BRABAZON is now solved, thanks to all who participated.
Isabella's father, Rev John Vignoles Brabazon was Church of Ireland, while Henry Elliott Smith was a Primitive Methodist. Apparently that was not a good basis for a marriage. Coming from a secular country I had not previously appreciated the significance of religion in family matters. It appears that Rev John may not have approved of the wedding of his daughter to Henry Smith, and that she therefore may have married secretly under the name of Isabella Browne. It is possible to reconcile the differences between the official records of the children and our family records, if we allow for family names to be derivations of actual names, and if one birth is put in a different sequence. There is still some way to go to be certain, but this thesis seems to be the most likely explanation.
I am still seeking information on the groom's father.
Thank you to all who participated for your greatly appreciated assistance, and to this wonderful forum in general!
Terry
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Just reading through this early thread again and believe I should offer some corrections for others who may be interested, as my thesis at the time was rubbish.
In the intervening time I have collected a lot of family papers, photos etc and now know that the supposed Brabason connection is pretty tenuous.
I now know that there was only one Henry Elliott Smith, my great grandfather, the son of William Smith and Anne (surname unknown). Henry's wife was Isabella Browne as was stated by others in this thread, and I have been able to trace her parents Stephen Browne and Anne (nee Bailey) and sister Martha. All the children's birth certificates show their mother's name as Browne except the last, my grandfather John's, which shows the maiden surname as Brabason. It remains a mystery why this should be so as there is a marked resemblance between the facial features of Henry and John.
Thanks again for all of your assistance when I was just starting this quest.
Terry
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Hi
Just spotted this thread while doing some research. It it's any help to you, Frances Isabella Clarence Brabazon is the daughter of Isabella Georgina Brabazon, nee Cash, through her marriage to Harry Lambert Brabazon, who died c. 1849. Frances Isabella Clarence Brabazon married James William Knott in 1862 and her mother, Isabella, married for the second time the following year, to George Kennedy, a widower.
I hope this may be useful.
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Hello Lilian,
Thank you for taking the time to respond with this. However this is not "our" Isabella and the reason that my great grandmother's maiden surname is recorded on my grand father's birth certificate as Brabason must remain a mystery.
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Hi again
There are a couple of Australian connections, both tenuous, but interesting and my gut feeling is that there is a distant connection between the families.
Harry Lambert Brabazon went to Sydney in 1839 and subsequently published a directory of the town. He got involved with some property development deals which led him into declared bankruptcy and returned to Ireland in or around 1842. I imagine that he must have had some connections there which motivated him to undertake that enterprise.
The name Lambert features as a surname through marriage into the Brabazon family.
If you can tell me any more about your Isabella, I'll be happy to search through the information I have accumulated.
Kind regards
Lilian
PS I missed the most important point - the Brabazons married cousins on at least two occasions. They were also known to change their surnames to Brabazon, documented on at least one occasion by royal permission.
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Hi Lilian,
My father's family were Dubliners, and my grandfather only came to Australia in or about 1919. His birth certificate records his mother's name as Isabella Anne Brabason. However, his older siblings' birth certificates record their mother's maiden surname as Isabella Anne Browne. His father, Henry Elliott Smith, was married to Isabella Anne Browne, not Brabason. She was one of at least two daughters of Stephen and Jane Browne (nee Bailey). Her sister was Martha. I don't know if it is relevant but there is a lot of Huguenot blood in the Smith and Elliott families, with their forebears moving to Ireland in the wake of the St Bartholomew's Day massacres.
I have spent some years trying to get to the bottom of this, and can not find any rational explanation, hence my belief that it will probably remain a mystery.
Thank you for your interest: knowing little of how these things worked in Ireland in the 19th century makes it a bit hard to find answers, especially from such a distance.