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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Ruskie on Thursday 12 August 10 05:54 BST (UK)
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Welcome to Part 6! ;D
As we have a limit of 20 pages per thread, I've started a new one. I hope all the new members following Nathaniel's Diary can find us here.
Once again, thanks to the powers that be for allowing us to continue our obsession. We've had a couple of new members join rootschat and our Nathaniel discussion in Part 5.
Any other lurkers are most welcome to join our discussion.
Links to previous threads:
Part 1:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,457330.0.html
Part 2:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,459757.0.html
On page one of Part 2 is a recap of our discoveries and a timeline.
Part 3:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,464660.0.html
Part 4:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,469736.0.html
Part 5:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,472362.0.html
And Nathaniel's Diary:
http://www.westminster.gov.uk/services/libraries/archives/victorian-clerk/
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Bookmarking ;D
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Yay, new thread :)
Mongibello, I suppose there'll be no chance of finding out more about the diary if it was purchased from a bookseller. That's very disappointing. Ooo, I wonder if Miss Myers had the entire Nathaniel Bryceson collection?
I know you weren't asking me, but yeah a trader is definitely the worst case scenario. If it was a private seller then a relative of theirs might remember the story of how it came into their posession, but if it's someone who dealt in thousands of books over a lifetime then obviously that's not going to happen. Still might be an invoice or something filed somewhere, but it would be asking a lot for someone else to try and locate it when they have no incentive.
I doubt if she had the whole set at the time Westminster acquired the 1846 one (or surely they'd have acquired them too; although £115 for one in 1974 is still quite pricey? If there were dozens of them then that would've been a big investment for a council archive...); but it's not impossible she had more and had sold the others earlier.
One other thing I noticed - looking online at the Westminster Archive it refers to "Samuel Bishop, merchant, Berkhamstead: Day book of imports and inventory, 1797 (available on microfilm only). Bound with the diary of Nathaniel Bryceson, qv, in Section 22 Acc 730" I know it was said earlier that the 1846 diary was written in an accounts log book; I wonder if the above entry means that rather then buying a brand new one (probably expensive) he re-used a half-completed old one he bought on one of his expeditions. If that's the case then the other diaries may have been in a completely different format and therefore it wouldn't have seemed like such a "set" as if they were all identical sizes. So maybe that's how they came to be separated. (Especially if they became assimilated into the collection of Aleck Abrahams, who seems like he had his own private research library.)
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drykid - That sounds entirely logical to me. Perhaps the other diaries were written in notebooks and didn't look so important as this one and got chucked away.
Does anyone think pursuing the New York Medical School might be worthwhile? Shall I try and contact them?
Carole
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I'm not totally sure I understand today's entry...it doesn't make much sense.
"Took shilling 1846 of Mr Lutman: the first I have seen this year."
Does he mean that this was the first shilling that was minted in 1846 that he'd seen? And that he'd taken it from Mr Lutman?
The Notes and Queries find was a huge bonus for me. It was an article published on July 2nd 1921 from information collected by Lieut-Co G.S. Parry in 1913, who had sadly been killed in the Great War.
The introduction to the article reads “INSCRIPTIONS IN THE CHURCHYARD OF ST. NICHOLAS, DEPTFORD. Among a few MSS. Yet remaining over from the days of the War, we have found the following list of Inscriptions taken down and abstracted by our regretted correspondent, the late Lieut.-Colonel Gilbert S. Parry. They appear to have been received during the time when ‘N. & Q.’ was appearing monthly; and we are glad at length to find room for them, and to have this opportunity for expressing our regret that these are the last results of the careful and useful labour devoted to rescuing from oblivion the memorials of those buried in so many churchyards in and near London.”
So going round old churchyards was obviously a favourite occupation for several people, not just our Nathaniel. I don't know whether those inscriptions are still there now, but I'm fairly sure they'd be much less legible these days, so I thank Lieut.-Colonel Gilbert S. Parry for his work in transcribing them in 1913.
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I'm not totally sure I understand today's entry...it doesn't make much sense.
"Took shilling 1846 of Mr Lutman: the first I have seen this year."
Does he mean that this was the first shilling that was minted in 1846 that he'd seen? And that he'd taken it from Mr Lutman?
Yeah, the phrasing is a bit formal / archaic, but I assume that's the intended meaning. When I was a kid it was a big deal to see the first car with the new registration letter for that year on August 1st; I imagine the shilling thing is an equivalent interest for him.
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I've emailed the college library but I don't know what, if any, response I'll get. Google books comes up with a College Alumni from 1902. No Leas in it.
I'm half hoping his degree was fraudulent ;D
Carole
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Seems a very strange change of occupation unless he had reason to administer first aid etc. to his staff and thought he knew enough about the subject to take it further.
Just bookmarking really ....
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Ian, your thoughts about the log books seem very logical. At the end of 1846 Nathaniel buys a diary for 1847. If he is writing the 1846 in a log book rather than a writing book, I wonder if he may have pinched it from work?
Remember earlier in the year he read the previous year's "log book" to Ann and, um ... Mrs Olive(?) :-\ Presumably that is a similar format book to the one for 1846? I wondered if he called it a log book rather than a diary because it was actually written in a log book ...
So do you think that the Samuel Bishop inventory was actually part of the same book? If so it was dated 1797 so quite old when Nat began writing in it. Maybe Mongibello or Steven who have seen the original diary can tell us more.
Carole - well worth trying the medical school. I wonder if there is something online - a register of some sort perhaps? I imagine his 'qualifications' would be recognized back in England? That's a bit naughty hoping that his degree is fraudulent (but I was hoping the same thing ;)).
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So do you think that the Samuel Bishop inventory was actually part of the same book? If so it was dated 1797 so quite old when Nat began writing in it. Maybe Mongibello or Steven who have seen the original diary can tell us more.
That's how I read it, but it's ambiguous, and like you say those have seen it will know for sure. But 1797 is sufficiently earlier for it to plausibly be something that had been disposed of as junk and then recycled. I can't think how else two unrelated documents would come to share the same binding.
Maybe the old log book was half full, and he just turned it over so that the old back page became the new "front" page and reused it that way. Having read his diary entries I can imagine that having such a large, impractical diary would probably have appealed to his sense of vanity.
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Did Nat keep two books? Where did all the information go that he recorded about church monuments? I was wondering if all his Notes and Queries type information went into the log book and that was the one he showed Ann and Mrs Olive. It seems a bit odd for him to show them his diary
Carole
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Did Nat keep two books? Where did all the information go that he recorded about church monuments? I was wondering if all his Notes and Queries type information went into the log book and that was the one he showed Ann and Mrs Olive. It seems a bit odd for him to show them his diary
But they wouldn't have understood the shorthand entries (they may not even have realised that it was coded at all; to me they look just like random scribbles on the extract shown on the web page.) And most of the longhand stuff is just a record of his travels and events of the day; nothing that he would have reason to hide. (Other than maybe the bits about Mrs. Skirricker, but then maybe he just didn't realise how odd that might sound to someone else...)
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Did Nat keep two books? Where did all the information go that he recorded about church monuments? I was wondering if all his Notes and Queries type information went into the log book and that was the one he showed Ann and Mrs Olive. It seems a bit odd for him to show them his diary
Carole
I can't recall him ever saying what he wrote his MI's in - presumably a book of some sort. I remember we all thought it was a bit weird that he should share his diary with Ann and Mrs Olive. I think he said that read from his log book "of the previous year" ... rather than letting them read it (they may have been illiterate anyway) Nat was probably very selective in which bits he read to them. ;)
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So do you think that the Samuel Bishop inventory was actually part of the same book? If so it was dated 1797 so quite old when Nat began writing in it. Maybe Mongibello or Steven who have seen the original diary can tell us more.
That's how I read it, but it's ambiguous, and like you say those have seen it will know for sure. But 1797 is sufficiently earlier for it to plausibly be something that had been disposed of as junk and then recycled. I can't think how else two unrelated documents would come to share the same binding.
Maybe the old log book was half full, and he just turned it over so that the old back page became the new "front" page and reused it that way. Having read his diary entries I can imagine that having such a large, impractical diary would probably have appealed to his sense of vanity.
This is certainly feasible. :-\
I hope Mongibello or Steven will be able to throw some light on this.
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Regarding today's entry:
"Took shilling 1846 of Mr Lutman: the first I have seen this year."
I thought that the 'of' should perhaps be an 'off'. :-\ I took it to mean that it was a newly minted coin dated 1846.
I wonder if Mr Lutman bought some coal and paid for it with a nice new shiny shilling?
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I'm not totally sure I understand today's entry...it doesn't make much sense.
"Took shilling 1846 of Mr Lutman: the first I have seen this year."
The way I read it, perhaps wrongly, is that it was a tip or gratuity. "The first tip I have had this year". Guess the fact he noted the date of the coin blows my theory
On the notes and queries thing, being a bit like a bulletin board etc on the internet, here is a thought. One day, all the stuff we are posting on the net, which will be webcrawled and put on auto archives (like google groups) will still be around possibly 100 years into the future. And someone will be wondering (as we do of Nat and his inscriptions) how strage we are musing at stuff from 164 years ago.....
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This might be interesting - my email correspondence with New York Medical College:
Your Question with ID 2691 was:
Hello. This is a query about alumni of the college. I'm researching a George Lea from England who claimed to be a M. D. and received his degree from the college. This would have been in the 1860s. Do you have any records of early students? Google Books came up with a Directory of Alumni dated 1902, but there are no Leas in it. In 1851 he was a coal merchant and in 1871 a doctor (both in England) which seems very odd.
Thank you
Carole
Response from Health Sciences Library is:
Carole,
I have checked our list of matriculates and graduates from 1861 -- 1881 and found no one by that name listed as either a student or graduate. Sorry for the bad news. Let me know if you have any further questions.
Thanks for using Ask-A-Librarian Services.
shawn
It looks like George Lea was telling lies! ;D
Carole
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Heh I can't say I'm surprised about George Lea :)
The way I read it, perhaps wrongly, is that it was a tip or gratuity. "The first tip I have had this year". Guess the fact he noted the date of the coin blows my theory
The only problem I have with that logic is that if that was the intended meaning then there's absolutely no reason to mention '1846' specficially, instead of just saying "this year." On the other hand it makes sense if he's referring to the first sighting of an 1846 coin, since that's what would be written on it.
EDIT: hah I just noticed you edited the post to say as much yourself; either that or I misread it originally.
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I've got to say I love the idea that George Lea was a fraudster. If his estate was only worth £10 at his death he can't have been very convincing as a medical man. Either that or he got through all the money he made. I bet he never even went to America.
How would you have checked in 1871? How many of us have checked our own doctor's qualifications? You don't do you? You just believe what they say.
Carole
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I haven't been able to find George Lea in any contemporary medical registers.
There was a police court case in 1876 concerning a Dr John Hamilton of Oxford Street who was charged with unlawfully representing himself as a Doctor of Medicine when his diploma was from the New York Metropolitan Medical College and allegedly of no value in the UK. The case was dismissed because he had represented himself only as a MD of that college and had never represented himself to be registered in the UK under the 1858 Act.
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I haven't been able to find George Lea in any contemporary medical registers.
There was a police court case in 1876 concerning a Dr John Hamilton of Oxford Street who was charged with unlawfully representing himself as a Doctor of Medicine when his diploma was from the New York Metropolitan Medical College and allegedly of no value in the UK. The case was dismissed because he had represented himself only as a MD of that college and had never represented himself to be registered in the UK under the 1858 Act.
At least it sounds as if he had some kind of a diploma - I don't think George ever did.
Carole
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I think diplomas could be obtained easily enough. One of my distant relatives practised as a doctor in Kansas in the 1880's and had his diplomas from Birmingham (England) and Buffalo med schools accepted by the Kansas authorities. The thing is, he is known to have been in Canada at the time he was supposed to be in Birmingham, and the Buffalo college has no record of him.
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Who would check?
I've been looking up english newspaper reports on the New York Medical College and there's a horrific report from 1890 about someone experimenting with brain grafts - between dogs and then between a dog and a cat, which are absolutely revolting >:(
Carole
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I think its really sad that Nathaniel kept his diaries for all of his life and then when he died his family got rid ! I know people those days (and some today) weren't sentimental but they were important enough to him to have kept you would have thought that one of his children would have appreciated that ..................or they were embarassed about his antics ;)
Nesta
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Just in case anyone wants to pursue the Aleck Abrahams line of enquiry then it's worth noting he did put his address occasionally in Notes & Queries.
Amusingly it seems that 51 Rutland Park Mansions (or part of it; might not be the whole thing) is available for viewing currently:
http://homes.voobay.co.uk/homes/flat-park-mansions-london
Maybe someone should pose as a buyer to see what they can find hidden under the floor boards *(semi-) joking*
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Hi everyone
My computer has been infected with a crazy virus ...I am now on my son's computer having lived a day without NB and you all ..... ::) :-\ :-X .... My computer now at the Computer MD ;D
re George studying in the USA .... I think I wrote earlier that I can find absolutely no details of him leaving nor that of Anna Matilda or Minnie Gertrude.
I really would hate to think of him practising medicine without knowing anything about it I think the people in those days had enough to deal with!
deb .... having NB DT's LOL ;D
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Carole I was very impressed that the NY Medical College replied to you so promptly. :)
Very curious that George concocted this story about qualifying in America. Why would he have bothered to do that, rather than just say he qualified somewhere in the UK? Perhaps it was simply because he didn't think he'd be rumbled or checks would be less likely to be made to overseas Colleges?
Another possibility is that he may have attended another American Med School with a similar name? :-\ But finding no record of him travelling to or from America clinches it really ...
Wouldn't there have been some kind of requirement to be a member of some medical organization in England in order for him to practice medicine?
This is my preferred option: Perhaps he was more of a 'potion' maker and seller than an actual medical doctor as we know them. (I'm thinking about some of the claims made by such people mentioned in the TV series The Victorian Pharmacy). Him saying he was an MD on bmd certificates etc was big-noting himself. And saying he had an American qualification may have made him seem pukka - a bit of self promotion and marketing and fibbing perhaps. Something to look good on the leaflets he handed out ;)
Nesta, re Nat's family getting rid of his diaries - it may have been Nathaniel himself who discarded them? :-\ Or perhaps they were part of a house clearance or deceased estate?
Ian, thanks for finding Aleck Abraham's address. It would be really interesting to see the house he lived in - and as for looking under the floorboards ... that's not such a bad idea (stranger things have happened). Though it looks like those gorgeous houses would have been gutted and divided into miniscule little flatlets and anything found would have been discarded years ago. I suppose Aleck had the whole house? Very nice. ;D
Missed you yesterday Deb.
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Hi Ruskie
I know he could have got rid of them himself but somehow personally I doubt it; why get rid after keeping them for so long ?
N
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There is a good possiblity that Abrahams may have acquired the diary/diaries, possibly from an estate clearing, perused them and later sold them. He has been known to sell archival documents and around the time of NB's death. NB's collection of old maps/books would surely have caught Abrahams interest if these were sold.
Found this transaction by Abrahams in National Archives of England :
SOCIETY OF ANTIQUARIES. Transcripts, notes and extracts by early officers and Fellows of SA conc. antiquities, pictures, MSS, etc., some derived from Stukeley's book, SAL/MS/265, with added information SAL/MS/264 1718-mid 18th cent., with later additions
Paper; ff. iv + 226. 1718-mid 18th century, with later additions. Folio. Half leather, brown, with marbled boards. Miscellaneous London notes, fol. iv.
Archival history: ... Sold by Aleck Abrahams to SA, April 1912 (fol. ii).
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=118-sal_1&cid=-1#-1
NB's interest in following Mrs. S, must have been for her connection with John Bunyan. I bet he had a copy of Pilgrim's Progress and would have loved the opportunity to view the author's portrait.
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That's an interesting find Linda. I'm not sure I understand exactly but I think I get the gist of it.
Took a while to work out that the SA mentioned must be the Society of Antiquaries. :-\ Um would it be worth contacting them?
Nathaniel just seems to be interested in old stuff - prints, books, buildings, people ... ;D - He went to see John Bunyan's grave and when he learned Mrs S was a relative, he became interested in her. (I hope she resurfaces in Nat's diary and he finds out her proper name)
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William Stukely was sort of father of British archaeology - he was the first person to take a serious interest in Stonehenge. Just the kind of thing I'd have expected Aleck Abrahams to have owned (although if he sold the notes he can't have been that interested!)
Has anyone else tried to find Aleck Abrahams in BMDs/censuses? Even looking under Alec/Alex variants I can't really find anyone who I think might be him. I know this doesn't matter but I was just curious.
I have to say diary-wise I'm missing Mrs S. Nat seems to have lost interest in her :(
Carole
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Carole I'm with you there
I have to say diary-wise I'm missing Mrs S. Nat seems to have lost interest in her :(
Carole
I should have bracketed SA beside the full name; however, just cut and pasted and didn't think of it Ruskie.
On google books searching by author pulls up some works he has authorer/coauthored. I wonder if there may be a little info given in these documents. Searching WorldCat there are libraries holding them. Maybe contacting the libraries to see if there are details within on the author.
On Amazon it associates Abrahams with the Dept of Botany, British Museum http://www.rootschat.com/links/09g0/
Night all,
Linda
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On Amazon it associates Abrahams with the Dept of Botany, British Museum http://www.rootschat.com/links/09g0/
I saw that - botany doesn't really seem quite his subject does it ???
Carole
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William Stukely was sort of father of British archaeology - he was the first person to take a serious interest in Stonehenge. Just the kind of thing I'd have expected Aleck Abrahams to have owned (although if he sold the notes he can't have been that interested!)
Has anyone else tried to find Aleck Abrahams in BMDs/censuses? Even looking under Alec/Alex variants I can't really find anyone who I think might be him. I know this doesn't matter but I was just curious.
I have to say diary-wise I'm missing Mrs S. Nat seems to have lost interest in her :(
Carole
I can't see Aleck in the 1901 or 1891 (spelled as Aleck). There is one born in 1907 and possibly dies in 1908 - maybe a son? Aleck is an unusual spelling. I wonder if he is from elsewhere countrywise. ;)
It is disappointing that Nat isn't stalking Mrs S any more. Nat has been pretty lazy lately regarding his diary entries. He must be knackered all week from those Sunday walks and the shenanigans with Ann.
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I saw that - botany doesn't really seem quite his subject does it ???
Maybe it grew on him :-[ Seriously though, if it was a paid position then maybe it was just a case of doing the work that was available. I'm not sure how easy it was to get a job in academia back then.
I must admit I'd like to see AA traced further, even though I very much doubt it will lead to further diary discoveries. If it helps the tracing process then he gives his address in an earlier Notes & Queries (1904) as:
"39 Hilmarton Road, N." ("N." meaning North London, I assume.)
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I wonder if Aleck was a pseudonym?
Carole
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I wonder if Aleck was a pseudonym?
It's possible, I suppose. Although if so then he used it not only for Notes & Queries, but also for books he contributed to *and* when donating from his collection to other sources.
The 1911 census is publicly available, yeah? Does that have any info about who was living at the Hilmarton Rd and Rutland Park Mansion addresses at that time? I'm not sure if he would still be at the former or moved to the latter by then (hopefully he wasn't living somewhere else inbetween...)
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Bingo! Got him! - Thanks for the earlier address.
1901 census 39 Hilmarton Road Islington:
Elizabeth Abrahams 79 widow living on own means b. city of London
Alfred J ,, ,, son 42 single Printers manager ,, ,,
Elizabeth ,, ,, daughter 40 single ,, ,,
Alexander ,, ,, son 35 single warehouse manager ,, ,,
Keziah Clements 22 general servant. b. Somerset.
I was sure he was just an interested amateur and I think I might be right.
Carole
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Someone with a subscription to FindMyPast might be kind enough to check the 1911 for us. :)
I can't see Aleck in 1901 and 1891? I thought the first name was unusual but there are 256 of them in the 1901 census!
Just saw your post Carole.
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So Aleck is dead by 1901? :-\
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So Aleck is dead by 1901? :-\
If he is then his ghost keeps writing to Notes & Queries for the next 20 years heh
But yeah, the profession on the 1901 does seem at odds with the British Museum bit. Not sure what to make of that. Anyway useful to know that he's down as "Alexander" on the census; I'll try and look out for more info under that name instead of "Aleck".
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What do you want to know on the 1911 - I have some spare credit ...
Nesta
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So Aleck is dead by 1901? :-\
Mum would no doubt use his proper name and given this to the enumerator. Maybe in 1911 census he was on his own and used Aleck.
Linda
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"Notes and Queries" seems to have been a weekly journal, originally an offshoot of The Athenaeum in 1849, taken over and relaunched by The Times in 1920. "A Medium of Intercommunication for Literary Men, General Readers etc". Price 6d.
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Oops, I saw Elizabeth as a widow and automatically thought Aleck was her dead husband and didn't notice Alexander the son.
It must be the right family as they're at the right address, but I think Aleck is an unusual shortened form of Alexander - shouldn't he be Alex? ...
this is all a bit strange ...
I suppose it's possible that between 1901 and 1904 Aleck changed occupations, or was he always a warehouse manager and did the history buff stuff in his spare time?
Thanks for the offer Nesta - if you can locate Aleck/Alexander, see where he's living, who he's living with and most importantly what his occupation is etc .... that would be great. :)
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I'll have a go later on and see what I can find
Nesta
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Got them I think - didn't do the original image tho' just the transcript; searched for Alexander Abrahams born 1866 (+/- 2) London and only the one came up so here it is - I hope i can post this ! The sister's age tallies as well !
Elizabeth Abrahams Head F 50 Single No Occupation born Middlesex, London
Alexander Abrahams Bro M 46 Single Journalist born Middlesex, London
Nellie Shirley Servant F 22 Single General Servant Domestic Birkhampstead, Herts
The address is 33 Sherriff Road, W. Hampstead NW
There is also a Alfred Abrahams aged 51 resident in Bethnal Green - sorry didn't buy that one;
There is a Elizabeth Abrahams death in 1902 in Islington which would tally with the 1901 census entry.
Nesta
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On Amazon it associates Abrahams with the Dept of Botany, British Museum http://www.rootschat.com/links/09g0/
I saw that - botany doesn't really seem quite his subject does it ???
Looking into Museum, found on Wikipedia that the British Library was created on 1 July 1973 by the British Library Act 1972. Prior to this, the national library was part of the British Museum. I could see Aleck having a job at the museum knowing his interest in documents of which he also profited from. Maybe warehouse manager is not so far off from managing a warehouse, even the possibly of managing a collection of documents, exhibits etc. in a Botany department of the museum would be in line with his interests.
Linda
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Thanks Nesta - I think we'll all feel more a bit more comfortable with his occupation this census. ;D
I found this. Not sure if it's him though:
Births Sept 1865
Alexander Abrahams
E. London
1c 4
Of course we don't know what kind of warehouse Aleck managed in 1901 - it may have been something related to his antiquarian interests.
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Forgot to say if I remove the place of birth I only get three -
1. The one above
2. Thomas Alexander in Sunderland 44
3. Philip A;lexander Abrahamson in Hackney 47
N
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Aleck is Aleik in 1881 census age 15 living with widowed mom and siblings Morris, Alfred J. and Lizzie at 4 High St. All born Mdx, London City. They have 2 servants so not poorly off. In parish of St Botolph Aldgate.
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I reckon the Department of Botany thing might be one of those odd things computer searches throw up? It seems he co-wrote the book The Life and Works of William Robinson topographer of North East London with John Ardagh in 1925. Nothing he ever contributed to N&Q etc ever seems to have had anything to do with botany. He's interested in Old London.
I'm sure all his reading and letter writing was done in his spare time.
Carole
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I reckon the Department of Botany thing might be one of those odd things computer searches throw up
I've concluded that the Botany thing is a red herring. The only thing linking AA to botany that I'm aware of is this page:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/09g0/
But if you look at it closely, the formatting of the author links is very messed up on that page. I believe that the reference to Botany should instead go with the name following Aleck's i.e. John Ardagh, who is closely associated with botany:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v163/n4145/abs/163557b0.html
So I think you're right and that Aleck had no formal links to academia; just a passion for history. Also it seems from that link that John Ardagh was another contributor to the ever-present Notes and Queries, which is presumably how they ended up working together on the book.
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No problem Ruskie - I agree with the occupation - it did seem to leap out didn;t it.
Don't seem to see any other possibles in that period as regards birth.
1871 Census - 4 & 5 Aldgate - all born Aldgate
Elizabeth Abrahams W 48 General Hardware Dealer
Isaac Abrahams 20 General Merchant
Bloom 17 Assistant
Moses 15 Assistant
Michael 13 Scholar
Abraham 12 Scholar
Alexander 5
plus a housemaid and Nursemaid
Family is at 7 Hound Ditch in 1861 - with father Joseph alive.
and is also at a very similar address in 1851
As regards the 1901 census - he could have been a bit like our Nathaniel and begun with an amateur interest in antiquaria and writing which in his case became his occupation and in 1901 he was only writing informally whilst holding down a job but by 1911 it was paying the bills - of course they are def not badly off - they have servants and his mother had died in 1902 (?) I wonder how much she left ! Can anyone check the new probate list on ancestry.
Nesta
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I will have a look at the book next Tuesday.
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I will have a look at the book next Tuesday.
Which book? NB's diary? That will be cool.
Personally I wouldn't mind seeing a copy of the Abrahams one now (seems like they have a copy in the Barbican library.) Not because I think it will have Da Vinci Code-like clues to the location of NB's diaries, or even because I have much interest in William Robinson, but I'm just slightly curious to see what it looks like. It seems it was self-published by AA; I wonder if he tried finding a publisher only to be rejected because he didn't have any formal academic qualifications.
I guess the big missing piece of information about AA now is when he died; and also when his sister died if that was later than him (since his collection of books would presumably have gone to her in the event of his dying first..) But I guess that information is harder to track down.
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15 Feb 1871 Probate for Joseph Abrahams 1 Houndsditch Birmingham and Sheffield warehouseman died 27 December 1870 effects under £9,000 Will proved by widow Elizabeth, Noah Davies and Walter Abrahams. I couldn't see anything for Elizabeth.
I think I'd have liked Aleck Abrahams. I can just see him quietly working away on something he loved, but without the education to be taken totally seriously by academics.
Carole
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August 14th: Harrison's 1786 edition of Dr Johnson's Dictionary would now set you back about £800+
Carole
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I'm pretty certain Alexander Abrahams died March quarter 1928 Edmonton aged 62 (gives him a birth year of 1866)
He was regularly contributing to N&Q through the 1920s but only once in 1926 and none after that (his name comes up twice in 1965 but I guess they refer back to his old entries)
Carole
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I'm pretty certain Alexander Abrahams died March quarter 1928 Edmonton aged 62 (gives him a birth year of 1866)
He was regularly contributing to N&Q through the 1920s but only once in 1926 and none after that (his name comes up twice in 1965 but I guess they refer back to his old entries)
Ahh thanks for that info; 1928 sounds about right. It's not easy to search N&Q properly without an Oxford Journals sub, but based on what I've seen I'd concluded exactly the same thing; that everything after the mid twenties just refers back to old entries by him.) Looks like he got his book out not long before he died then; I'm glad he finally managed it. I'm sure he'd be pleased that a copy now sits in the Guildhall Library alongside numerous other academic works about history.
So, if AA's copies of the NB diaries were sold on after his death (which is nothing more than supposition on my part), then that means there's a gap of 46 years between his death and the 1846 one being sold by Winifred Myers to Westminster Council. If only we knew where they were in between, and how many made that journey... (Although whereas I can't possibly imagine NB selling the diaries during his lifetime, it's more plausible that AA might have done so since there wouldn't have been such a personal attachment.)
- Ian
PS I can't ever hear about Johnson's Dictionary these days without thinking of the Blackadder episode where Robbie Coltrane plays an utterly terrifying Doctor Johnson and Blackadder ends up destroying the only copy of the dictionary...
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There's plenty of time (and a World War) between Aleck's death and Westminster Archives acquiring the diary for any others to be lost or destroyed. Perhaps with all the current interest in Nat, the others, if they survive, might surface?
Historical footnote: My husband's 4x great aunt Mary Smith played hostess to Dr Johnson and Mr and Mrs Thrale on at least one occasion as she was married to Mr Thrale's cousin Ralph Smith of St Albans. I bet she was terrified of the real thing.
Carole
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There's plenty of time (and a World War) between Aleck's death and Westminster Archives acquiring the diary for any others to be lost or destroyed.
True, although on the positive side I'm fairly sure from what I've read that Aleck accumulated a collection of fairly valuable books going back hundreds of years. It seems inconceivable to me that someone would say "oh this is all junk" and bin it without first consulting a bookdealer. So at that point his collection would logically have gone to someone who appreciated its value. And the longer after that the diaries survived for, the less likely it would be that someone new acquiring them would see them as worthless. WWII is a possible problem, I agree, but then again the 1846 one survived. So any others that were stored with it during the war presumably did too.
Perhaps with all the current interest in Nat, the others, if they survive, might surface?
This is both a plus and a minus. I agree that if they are in private hands then the publicity about the Westminster serialisation could cause them to now come forward. The downside is that they would probably think that they have something that's extremely valuable in financial terms, in a way that they might not have considered before. Still that's a problem for Westminster Archive to ponder more than us :P
Historical footnote: My husband's 4x great aunt Mary Smith played hostess to Dr Johnson and Mr and Mrs Thrale on at least one occasion as she was married to Mr Thrale's cousin Ralph Smith of St Albans. I bet she was terrified of the real thing.
It's funny; in my ignorance I'd always assumed that his personality in that episode of the show was just some dramatic device to make the accidental destruction of the dictionary seem even more unfortunate. But I just did some reading on Johnson and it seems he really was notorious for his behaviour. Interesting that some people now think he had Tourette's (a term that didn't even exist while he was alive.)
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Well I'm a bit confused by the "Ornamental blind" bit but whippers were the men who unloaded the coal from the collier boats. http://www.portcities.org.uk/london/server/show/conMediaFile.1098/Coal-whippers-discharging-a-collier-by-WL-Wyllie.html.
John Vincent Smith's murder of Susan Tolleday doesn't seem to have made great news. The poor girl got involved with this man to who she was distantly related through marriage and gave him money. I guess she wanted to stop, there was an argument and he killed her http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18460817-name-543&div=t18460817-1582a#highlight
Carole
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It's amazing to me - if I'm reading it right - that it could go from crime to trial in two days back then; for something as serious as murder there would be months of building a case these days.
The testimony of the 12-yr old is particularly disturbing. (Although given that people would see a public execution as a family day out in NB's day, I guess it's probably dangerous trying to project modern attitudes to violence onto a situation like this.)
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John Vincent Smith's murder of Susan Tolleday doesn't seem to have made great news
It certainly did make news. There was a widespread outcry against the death sentence. petitions were got up, etc and eventually the death sentence was commuted.
Try searching the newspaper databases for Susan Tolliday, Susan Tolloday, and John Smith W12 guildhall between August 15 and September 30 1846.
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I think I was being lazy - I should have said it didn't make Googling news ;D
Carole
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I've been tied up all day and just caught up with today's entry. :o
Interesting italics again today!!! ;D
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We were wondering about this a few days ago:
"took down some more inscriptions in scrapbook"
I had a quick look but was unable to find either Emery Hill or Margaret Patten. I do have my doubts about her age at death. ;)
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Interesting italics again today!!! ;D
I'm still pondering it; don't want to suggest anything in case I'm embarassingly way off the mark. I'd rather hear other people's theories :P
I had a quick look but was unable to find either Emery Hill or Margaret Patten. I do have my doubts about her age at death. ;)
Yeah, it's obviously unreliable - it would break all known records if it were accurate. I guess back then they didn't do as much checking. Would be interesting to see if it tallies with the birth certificate if it can be located (in which case both are wrong.)
Christ Church, Westminster was destroyed during the war and subsequently demolished, which is a shame as it looks quite imposing from the drawing on the web page.
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Mr Emery Hill's charity is still helping to house 60 people in Almshouses today http://www.westminsteralmshouses.com/history.htm Wonderful things almshouses - so many have incredibly long histories.
'How old are you dear?'
'I'm a hundred and thirty five you know!!!'
So next year when Ms Patten dies 136 gets chiseled onto the gravestone .....
The OED was unable to supply me with any definition of the word cabinet as used in this context by Nat. I think we might have just learnt another Victorian slang word :o
Carole
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Notes and Queries on Margaret Patten: http://www.rootschat.com/links/09hi/
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Notes and Queries on Margaret Patten: http://www.rootschat.com/links/09hi/
Oh well, I believe it all now ;) ;D
Carole
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Notes and Queries on Margaret Patten: http://www.rootschat.com/links/09hi/
Great find Shaun! Yeah it has to be fantasy but all good fun and a conversation starter - Nathaniel was certainly impressed, but we know he is interested in the elderly. ;D I'll see if I can locate Margaret Patten in Scotland.
Yes Carole, almhouses are fascinating! I'll check out your link in a minute.
And I'm with you and Ian on the meaning of 'cabinet' - I'm sure we're all thinking along the same lines (I know I am! ;)). ;)
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Great find Shaun...I'm really starting to love this 'Notes & Queries' magazine, so useful! As that was published in 1853, our Nat was 7 years ahead of the crowd!
As for the italics, Nat was obviously rummaging in Ann's cabinet of curiosities, much like a lady's handbag today. ;) That obviously explains the asterisks in that last italicised word which started with C and ended with T - it was CABINET!!!
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A Margaret Patten reference from 1820 http://www.rootschat.com/links/09hl/
And one from 1849 http://www.rootschat.com/links/09hm/
Google books is really useful !
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A Margaret Patten reference from 1820 http://www.rootschat.com/links/09hl/
And one from 1849 http://www.rootschat.com/links/09hm/
Google books is really useful !
Fabulous articles but a few inconsistencies. ;D
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Looking back at contemporary newspaper reports of Margaret Patten's death, she died on 26th June 1739 aged 137, in the workhouse at St Margaret Westminster. "Her chief support for many years was only milk"
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http://tinyurl.com/388j33e
Originally possibly the longest link of all time. And it had a word in it that might upset some if posted direct to the site, but look at the top of your browser and it will be fairly clear :)
I think this pretty much explains cabinet - and its from shakespearian times.
Kinda puts a new spin on describing yourself in a census as a cabinet maker.
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http://tinyurl.com/388j33e
Originally possibly the longest link of all time. And it had a word in it that might upset some if posted direct to the site, but look at the top of your browser and it will be fairly clear :)
I think this pretty much explains cabinet - and its from shakespearian times.
Kinda puts a new spin on describing yourself in a census as a cabinet maker.
;D ;D ;D :o :o ;D ;D ;D
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hi everyone
I am fascinated by Margaret Patten ...
found a portrait of her
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i am searching online and found these two sketches:
They were done by Henry Bone to be transferred to john Russell for completion. Both members of the Royal Academy in London ....They are just titled Mr Lea and Mrs Lea ......
I would love to think that they belong to our LEA's ..... ::) ::) ;D ;D
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Thanks everyone for finding the links and the portraits, both of Mrs Patten and the Leas...wouldn't it be great if they were Nat's Leas!
I'm interested that no one seems to question Margaret Patten's age at all...surely they must have thought she might have been mistaken at best, fibbing at worst. It must have been sufficiently out of the ordinary for someone to ask themselves whether or not it was likely...unless her baptism entry had been found and it had all been put to rest already.
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Steven Saxby Diary entry for 15th August 2010
"Rose early, 8am (well early for the summer holidays) and made use of the last few hours of our hire car to visit the grave of my 3x great grandfather Nathaniel Bryceson. Grateful to Montigbello without whose guidance I would never have found the grave. Thereafter to Greenford to inspect graffiti in church porch of which much but could not find NB 1846. Returned car to London City Airport and then went shopping in Oxford Street for wife's birthday presents. Later visited historic pub in Kentish Town for a swift half (at my own expense) and home to Walthamstow. My wife has painted a (kitchen)cabinet today which I am about to inspect."
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Glad you got to see Nat's grave, Steven. Hope your inspection of your wife's cabinet was agreeable.
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I happened to be in the city today, so I thought I'd have a poke around Richmond Buildings myself. As has been said before, there isn't that much to see on the south side, sadly. But I took a pic of the office block at 9-11 Richmond Buildings, which is where Nat's house would once have stood, as well as the office at No. 12, which I suspect survives from the original block (the brickwork looks pretty old to me, anyway.) So maybe that gives us an idea of what no. 9 also looked like, although I suspect it didn't look quite as spruced up back in Nat's day.
The numbering of the buildings doesn't really add up to me, no. 12 as it is today seems almost as wide as 9-11 combined, which doesn't tally at all with the 1790 map. It would make more sense if the office block was actually where 8-10 originally stood (rather than 9-11), and what's currently numbered 12 is actually the old nos. 11-12 combined into a single address. But I'm just speculating.
(http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/4027/sany0055x.jpg)
(http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/1655/sany0050m.jpg)
(http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/1458/sany0052.jpg)
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;D ;D ;D - shame there isn't a little icon that laughs and cries at the same time....
Nice pics of Richmond Buildings btw
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Hi Deb,
Love the pictures. It would be wonderful if they were our Leas - and they're just how I imagined them to look. :)
I saw another portrait of Margaret Patten which I'll try to find again if I have time today. It seems like she was a real curiosity in her day. You can just imagine the attention she must have received. It almost doesn't matter that she wasn't really as old as she said she was - it's such a great story! Earlier in the diary Nat gave some money to an old man just because he was old.
Ian I love your photos of Richmond Buildings. Many thanks for taking the trip and the photos. Sad that 9 has been replaced by that horrible modern monstrosity. It does look like No 12 might be an older building which has been restored - as does the building beside it. I don't think a repro would be built set back from the road like that or with the lower ground floor and the steps in that style. Though it does look like it has really had the treatment - replacement windows and everything else that could be replaced. :-\ I thought that the building at the end (the one on which the 'Richmond Buildings' street name is attached) looked like it might be a survivor too - it looks a bit run down. The bricks are probably London Stock Bricks and, like the modernised building, would be the same golden colour under all that pollution.
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Thanks everyone for finding the links and the portraits, both of Mrs Patten and the Leas...wouldn't it be great if they were Nat's Leas!
I'm interested that no one seems to question Margaret Patten's age at all...surely they must have thought she might have been mistaken at best, fibbing at worst. It must have been sufficiently out of the ordinary for someone to ask themselves whether or not it was likely...unless her baptism entry had been found and it had all been put to rest already.
I had a (quick) look on Scotland's People but couldn't find her birth/baptism. Perhaps some did question her age, but maybe there's just no documentation which survives about this. Margaret would have been a huge star so and you can imagine that people must have made money off the back of her, so any rumours about her not being the age she claimed to be, would be quashed. The media of the day may have kept up the pretense?
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Margaret would have been a huge star so and you can imagine that people must have made money off the back of her, so any rumours about her not being the age she claimed to be, would be quashed. The media of the day may have kept up the pretense?
You may well be right about that. One of the Google books linked to earlier by Shaun mentioned that the Workhouse Keeper wouldn't have made any more money if he'd exhibited poor Margaret in a freakshow. So he at least was going to keep up the pretence, and the story probably sold a few papers as well.
Interesting that you couldn't find her baptism. Did you look under her maiden name? Sorry, I know that's basic, I don't mean to insult your genealogical abilities, but I only found out she had one from reading one of Shaun's links. Unfortunately I've already forgotten it...
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Steven Saxby Diary entry for 15th August 2010
"Rose early, 8am (well early for the summer holidays) and made use of the last few hours of our hire car to visit the grave of my 3x great grandfather Nathaniel Bryceson. Grateful to Montigbello without whose guidance I would never have found the grave. Thereafter to Greenford to inspect graffiti in church porch of which much but could not find NB 1846. Returned car to London City Airport and then went shopping in Oxford Street for wife's birthday presents. Later visited historic pub in Kentish Town for a swift half (at my own expense) and home to Walthamstow. My wife has painted a (kitchen)cabinet today which I am about to inspect."
That's fabulous Steven! ;D I love it!
Now, tell us more. Were you able to read anything more on Nathaniel's headstone? Do you think you would like to, or be able to, clear the area a bit?
You said that there is a lot of graffiti in the church porch - is that old grafitti or new grafitti? If old, I still hold out hope that Nathaniel's NB 1846 still remains ... :-\ Further searching and investigation is required on that one. ;)
Did your wife really paint a kitchen cabinet cupboard? ;D
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Margaret would have been a huge star so and you can imagine that people must have made money off the back of her, so any rumours about her not being the age she claimed to be, would be quashed. The media of the day may have kept up the pretense?
You may well be right about that. One of the Google books linked to earlier by Shaun mentioned that the Workhouse Keeper wouldn't have made any more money if he'd exhibited poor Margaret in a freakshow. So he at least was going to keep up the pretence, and the story probably sold a few papers as well.
Interesting that you couldn't find her baptism. Did you look under her maiden name? Sorry, I know that's basic, I don't mean to insult your genealogical abilities, but I only found out she had one from reading one of Shaun's links. Unfortunately I've already forgotten it...
Hi Aniseed. Yes first I tried Patten but then when I read that her maiden name was Gibson I tried that too. As I said, I only had a quick look though. Her place of birth varies too - some say Paisley, some Glasgow. :-\
I'll have a more careful look later if I have time. (I have a bit of a busy day today)
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I thought that the building at the end (the one on which the 'Richmond Buildings' street name is attached) looked like it might be a survivor too - it looks a bit run down. The bricks are probably London Stock Bricks and, like the modernised building, would be the same golden colour under all that pollution.
Yeah, I didn't take a pic of the end building as it's Dean St rather than Richmond Buildings (even if it has the "Richmond Buildings" street sign attached), and is on Google Street View anyway. But I do agree that it probably dates back as far as Nat's time. As for no. 12 it's obviously had a lot of work done to it, but like you say the features are consistent with an old style townhouse rather than some modern attempt at creating a vintage-style building (and the latter would be a complete waste of effort anyway, given the eyesore that's sitting next to it.)
I really enjoyed Steven's perfectly-executed Nat-style diary entry too :) And glad that he finally visited the grave.
As for "cabinets"; I concluded that the meaning was as per the Shakespearian-era doc already quoted from. I did find an "erotic novel" from the 1880s called "The Pearl" that referred to umm "her cabinet of love" in basically the same context. I couldn't possibly quote the complete sentence here though :-[ But I mention it as evidence that the usage was still around in the late 19th century, so it's completely plausible that Nat would be familiar with it.
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.... I did find an "erotic novel" from the 1880s called "The Pearl" that referred to umm "her cabinet of love" in basically the same context. I couldn't possibly quote the complete sentence here though :-[ But I mention it as evidence that the usage was still around in the late 19th century, so it's completely plausible that Nat would be familiar with it.
A bit of light reading for later on then ... ;)
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From FreeBMD:
Deaths Sep 1846
Wetherell Charles
Malling
5 / 296
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Hi
Catching up again .... i did see a reference to Margaret patten as Margaret Batten ... I can't remember where I was googling 8)
I also saw that some people were recorded as living til almost 200 years old ... ;D what the heck were they eating in those days ?
Hi Steven ...love your diary entry ... I have several ...I do hope mine are not open for discussion 150 years from now. LOL
I also have 2 cousins from Devon who spent a year each in London in the early 1820's ....Their diaries are fascinating .... they were also friends of the famous Micheal Faraday... I helped my cousin with the findings of pictures of 1820 and 1821 ...just absolutely FAB stuff.
deb
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For Steven ...please send regards to your mum .... I do hope she is logging in to update herself on NB's shenanigans (sp??) ......
Hi Steven's Mum :)
Regards
deb
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1960s architects and town planners left us such a rich legacy of wonderful buildings didn't they? Always so sympathetic to the locality.
(Please note I'm being VERY sarcastic here!)
Carole
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About today's entry: I'm very impressed by how quickly the news travelled. The death was at 5.30pm in Maidstone (unless he was staying in Berkeley Square, but it says Maidstone quite firmly) and by the time Nat wrote his diary he knew. Did he know the lawyer personally (I doubt that) or was it in the late edition of a newspaper? Maybe that was the case.
I'm intrigued with how Margaret Patten was able to claim to be something between 137 and 143 years old (it varies between reports) without anyone challenging this. Thanks for looking for the baptism, Ruskie, and it might be an idea to check for Batten as Deb mentioned. But if that's the case what's the proof that it's the same Margaret Patten/Batten??? Perhaps people were more trusting in those days, and more willing to believe stories of marvels.
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About today's entry: I'm very impressed by how quickly the news travelled. The death was at 5.30pm in Maidstone (unless he was staying in Berkeley Square, but it says Maidstone quite firmly) and by the time Nat wrote his diary he knew. Did he know the lawyer personally (I doubt that) or was it in the late edition of a newspaper? Maybe that was the case
He may have written the diary entry several days later
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Aw! I'm slightly less impressed now! ;D
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I couldn't see a birth/baptism for either a Margaret Gibson or Patten between (a broad) 1590 and 1660 in Renfrew. Of course the maiden name may be incorrect or she may even have another given name ... :-\ There are a couple of Margaret Gibson's born much later. All we know for sure is that Margaret died 26th June 1739. I think if we assume that she was more like 60 to 80 years old rather than 136, when she died, then there are a couple of Margaret Gibsons born between 1660 and 1679. :-\
Anyhow, the good news is that there appears to be some inkling of truth in one thing - there IS a place by the Loch opposite Lochwinnoch called Townhead of Risk and another simply called Risk. Both look like nothing more than farmsteads. (Ordnance Survey map shows both but google maps doesn't) It's feasible that one of them was "the Risk" where Margaret is said to have been born.
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Dear all,
I am glad you enjoyed my diary entry. My wife really did paint a kitchen cabinet yesterday. It belonged to my great grandparents (not NB's side) and dates from the 1940s. She has re-painted it from yellow to the colour blue I remember is as a child. However, the truth is that I do not keep a diary although I am considering doing so for next year.
It was super to visit the grave. Sadly, clearing of ivy from the grave (some recent) has damaged quite a bit of inscription but I could make out a few bits, including the start and finish of the two Nathaniel Brycesons under Sarah Bryceson. I am curious about three things: 1) the fact that Sarah's age ast 64 does not tally with her age from other records (unless my maths is very bad); 2) the start of a word "Disi...." under Nat Snr; and 3) the start of the word "Eli...." under Nat Jnr. There is little point clearing the grave further as it is in a natural/wild area of the cemetery (a huge place by the way of nearly 200 acres). What would NB have made of that!
The graffitti at Greenford was old. One inscription said 1612! I shall post photos soon but my laptop is dead at present so I am using another until it is fixed. NB said his inscription was on a red floor tile. These are still there but the graffiti may have worn with time. I have e-mailed the vicar and mentioned the connection and asked for local help in searching further but I doubt we will find it. Faint marks are visible on some red tiles but nothing legible. Should I offer compensation in any case?
My Mum was unable to log-on before but I helped her do that when I was with her last week. Sadly, on her birthday her Mum and my Nan died from complications following an operation so this is a sad time for us, especially my Mum. My Nan, Stella was born Bryceson, as was her younger sister, my great aunt Truda. As far as we are aware (i.e. unless we find some descendants of Nat Jnr or John Bryceson, my great great grandfather's older brothers) Truda is the last of NB's descendants to be born Bryceson. She lives in supported acccommodation as she has mental health difficulties at times and had no children.
I am very glad that my Nan got to hear about the diary's serialisation before she died. I was always anxious about her reading the raunchier parts (although she was not a prude by any means) but she was too ill to follow the diary on 9th August and died the next day. Please remember her and our family in your thoughts and prayers.
Peace to all,
Steven.
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I'm thinking of you, your mother, your lovely nan Stella, and all your family, Steven. I'm so sorry you're going through this hard time. How wonderful, though, that your nan lived to know how many of us are enjoying her great grandfather's diary. May she rest in peace.
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I'm so very sorry to read of your loss Steven, my thoughts are with you and your family.
Carole
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Dear Steven
I, too, am very sad to hear of the passing of your Nan. I will keep you, your Mum and family in my prayers.
God Bless!
deb
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Steven
re Sarah's age
on the censuses she is bc 1826, Barnet and dies in Dec q 1890, Islington so the inscription seems to be correct ... ie: aged 64 :)
deb
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I've been going around in my mind what the words may be under both Nathaniel names on the headstone.
Nathaniel Jnr, it seems had one child ...Ethel Elizabeth Bryceson b 1882. She married John Edmund Waterson in 1913. I wonder if she may have been buried with them?
ie: ELI inder Nat jnr = Ethel ELIzabeth Bryceson Waterson
I wonder where Annie (Stone) Bryceson, Nat jnr's wife was buried?
deb ... ;D thinking
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From FreeBMD:
Deaths Sep 1846
Wetherell Charles
Malling
5 / 296
a pic of Sir Charles
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Sincere Condolances Steven, for you and your family. Daisy Loo
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My condolences to your family Steven and particularly to your mum, and a prayer said for your nan and your family.
I'm so pleased that your nan knew Nat's diary was being enjoyed by many of us, I bet she knew more about goings on than you ever dreamed she did.
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So sorry to hear about your Nan - please give my regards and condolences to your Mum - I lost my 85 yr old dad in Jan after a long illness and know how hard it can be - both to see them suffer and then to lose them
x
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First, my sympathies to Steven on the death of his Nan.
Second, replying to Deb, The cemetery officials told me that although there was room for four burials only three had taken place. i.e. Sarah & the two Nathaniels.
Third replying to Drykid, I had a look at the book today as it is some years since I had seen it. It has been severely damaged by damp at some stage and the pages have been mounted on card to save further deterioration. It starts with some accounts from 1816 on the first five pages. Then pages six to 43 were blank when NB bought it and the bulk of the diary is on these. Pages 44 onwards have further accounts from 1797. There was some room on pages 44 & 45 and NB wrote entries on these. Clearly NB bought it second hand as it dates to before his birth! As you can see from the picture of Steven it is in large format, somewhat bigger than A4. A book like this would have been quite expensive new as paper was still largely hand made I believe.
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Did anyone manage to follow the STANGROOMS down?
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I've just read one of the articles that Shaun linked to on Google books click here (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=TfMHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA74&dq=%22margaret%20patten%22&hl=en&ei=DhtpTO_MGJXr4gbmrpmZBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=%22margaret%20patten%22&f=false), which included this paragraph:
"“An old person says that Margaret married a solider, or dragoon, who was present at the skirmish of Muirdykes, in 1685, fought between the Royalists, headed by Lord Ross, and Covenanters led by Sir John coch4ran and Sir Patrick Hume of Polwart. The Muirdykes is within the parish of Lochwinnoch, about a mile from the Risk. The dragoon, with his wife, proceeded to England, where he died – Margaret, at length finding an asylum in a workhouse. The authority for this tradition is ignorant of all dates. She states that “Margaret married after the battle of Muirdykes;” but having been born in 1601, it follows that she was 84 years of age in 1685. The dragoon, however, may have taken a whim into his head to marry a lively old woman.” :o
It seems the dragoon had something in common, then, with Nat in liking older women!!! But if Margaret was in fact born in 1660, then she would have been 25 in 1685, which is a much more likely age to have married a dragoon.
NB at the top of this entry her name is spelled ‘Paton’ rather than ‘Patten’ could be a variant to check?
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Did anyone manage to follow the STANGROOMS down?
I think I did -will look for the post and let you know.
Here it is - I do have a full version with the living people if you want that just pm me with your email
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,469736.msg3314757.html#msg3314757
N
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ah N :) I had the same thought as you, and thought I'd try and trace the descendants. I only found one possible Living Stangroom, from Walter B Stangroom. You've done all the hard work though :)
The living Stangroom married, and I have two possible children for her.
Did you PM Steven the info? And did you manage to trace any of the other branches?
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Yes I did - have it on my other computer - pm me your email and I will let you ahve the unedited version.
I think we're all obsessed don't you - my husband is convinced that half my mind is in 19th century London most of the time between Nathaniel and some research I've been doing for a friend of mine...........same areas of London !! life was much simpler in some ways then !
Steven has had the info and has put it on a family tree; you;re welcome to a copy of that.
N
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Hi everyone
Margaret Patten/Pat*n's portrait , that I posted, supposedly hung in the almshouse. It was drawn/painted by I Cooper , mezzotint, 1737-1739.
Do you think she looks 137 years old? I think she looks quite good ...for that age ... ;D
deb
PS I wonder if Ethel Elizabeth Waterson nee Bryceson, granddaughter of Nathaniel snr had any children ...If they married 1913 ...some relatives may still be alive!
deb again
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Steven,
I'm very sorry to hear the sad news about your Nan.
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I had a look at the book today as it is some years since I had seen it. It has been severely damaged by damp at some stage and the pages have been mounted on card to save further deterioration. It starts with some accounts from 1816 on the first five pages. Then pages six to 43 were blank when NB bought it and the bulk of the diary is on these. Pages 44 onwards have further accounts from 1797. There was some room on pages 44 & 45 and NB wrote entries on these. Clearly NB bought it second hand as it dates to before his birth! As you can see from the picture of Steven it is in large format, somewhat bigger than A4. A book like this would have been quite expensive new as paper was still largely hand made I believe.
Thank you for explaining this Mongibello.
I'm sure you must be correct about the fact that Nathaniel purchased this second hand - or do you think it may have been something that he found at work and decided to use as a diary? As it contains accounts might it have been work related?
You would think, given the choice, that he would have bought something smaller and more discrete.
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Great picture of Sir Charles Deb. ;D
I just love the men's clothes from this era. ;)
I searched last night for that other drawing of Margaret Patten but couldn't locate it. Never mind. I did not search for variations of her surname on Scotland's People. As we really have no idea when her true date of birth was, I can't see how we'll ever find her .... still, it's fun trying. ;D
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Looks like there are no records for Lochwinnoch in the right time frame. :-\
From Genuki:
Records in the old parish registers (OPRs) for Lochwinnoch parish span the following years:
Births or Baptisms ~ 1718-1854
Marriages or Banns ~ 1718-1854
Deaths or Burials ~ no records
So ... a dead end it seems .... :-\ That's a shame as I would love to know how old she really was. ;D
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My condolences also to Steven on his sad loss :(
Third replying to Drykid, I had a look at the book today as it is some years since I had seen it. It has been severely damaged by damp at some stage and the pages have been mounted on card to save further deterioration. It starts with some accounts from 1816 on the first five pages. Then pages six to 43 were blank when NB bought it and the bulk of the diary is on these. Pages 44 onwards have further accounts from 1797. There was some room on pages 44 & 45 and NB wrote entries on these. Clearly NB bought it second hand as it dates to before his birth! As you can see from the picture of Steven it is in large format, somewhat bigger than A4. A book like this would have been quite expensive new as paper was still largely hand made I believe.
OK thanks for that; it confirms pretty much everything I suspected; it also confirms why the diary ends early on Dec 12th, since he clearly filled all available space and needed to start the next volume early. I wonder if he added the remaining entries to his 1847 diary or just stopped journaling altogether until the start of the next year.
I'm also curious at what point the water damage occurred; whether it was before the 1846 one got separated from the others or not. Although I guess I'd just be grateful for the missing ones to turn up, water damage or not. It does offer a potential explanation for the non-survival of the others though; if they were all exposed to substantial flooding at some point then it's possible that only this one was considered to be in a state worthy of keeping afterwards (maybe because of its binding), and the others were binned. Though I hope I'm wrong.
A bit of light reading for later on then ... ;)
Hah well I may have read on a bit, purely out of curiosity you understand. I did learn a new word from the same story: the verb "to gamahuche", which I couldn't possibly elaborate on here. Suffice to say that if Nat ever uses it re: Ann Fox, then it means things have moved on considerably between them...
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Was there water damage on the pages written by Nat? ie was it damaged before or after he bought it?
I'm still pretty miffed that it ends on 12 December, a day before my main suspect for Mrs S, Mary Shillinglaw was buried at St Mary Islington. I'm just hoping if it was her news of her death reached Nat before he stopped writing.
Carole
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That would pretty much blow Aug 9th out of the water!
Its easily found on dictionary.com
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Its easily found on dictionary.com
Gamahuche? Yeah it's probably not that obscure at all, I guess. Maybe I've just led a sheltered life...
Changing the subject completely, it seems sadly that Winifred A. Myers - the bookseller who sold the 1846 diary on to the Westminster Archive - is no longer around. I don't know exactly how long ago she died, but I did find a record of a college that has some manuscripts in its archive that were bequeathed by her.
Still possible that a relative might have inherited papers relating to where she got the book from; but it would be a massive liberty to ask them even if you could trace such a person in the first place.
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My laptop has come back to life! Here are some pics!
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close up
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and another
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the porch at Greenford!
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here is the porch of naughty goings on!
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close up of other graffiti
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In Steven's first photo today, reply #126, under the line "WHO DIED....." it says "GONE BUT [presumably] not forgotten" - how true is that? All these years later and certainly not forgotten!
Lovely to see the photos but such a shame the stone has deteriorated so.
Heather
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Hi Heather
Welcome to the saga of NB ... ;D
Steven
Thanks so much for the photo's ...The one of the porch at Greenford made me a little melancholy .... I so wish I could have met Ann and Nat!!
it's late here so I will look at the photo's again in the morning ....although I am sure they will have been analysed to death before I wake up ;D
deb
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re photo reply #128
Steven I know you saw DISI under Nat ,,,but the D does not go with the "D" of "DIED" just above it....
I see ?ISI......
photo:
..HO DIED....
.......ISI ......
deb
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Deb,
It looks to me like italics and is DESI, as part of an inserted prayer.
Steven,
May I also extend my condolences to you and your family at this difficult time, and thank you for taking the time to let us know.
Regards,
Colin
Added - with and AND below it
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I'm a bit depressed about the state of that headstone; I'd hoped from the original photo that thing's weren't quite as bad as they looked, but seeing it close up it's quite shocking how completely it's been obliterated. Amazing what nature can do to a lump of stone in a (relatively) short space of time. I do agree that it looks like an italicised "Desi."
Stupid question, but was the floor mat lifted when looking for Nat's carving at Greenford? Looking at the photo it seems to hide quite a few of the red floor tiles, and presumably wouldn't have been there in 1846.
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I am pretty sure it is DIS.., poss DISE.. or DISP...
Yes, I did look under the mat and at every red tile. My trousers got quite dirty!
Peace,
Steven.
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Of course it's very possible that the tiles have been replaced. Maybe it would be worth asking a "friends of ..." group if they know if and when this was done? The tiles do look authentic but with a listed church any alterations would have been done sympathetically, so it is difficult to know if they are the same tiles Nathaniel knew.
I'm a bit sad about the poor state of the headstone - and am having trouble seeing much there at all. :-\
Good to have you on board Heather! :)
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Dear Ruskie et al, My impression is that the tiles are original. Have I mentioned that I am church furnishings officer for my Diocese? In any case, I have contacted the vicar and hope to learn more from local sources. Peace, Steven.
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Dear Ruskie et al, My impression is that the tiles are original. Have I mentioned that I am church furnishings officer for my Diocese? In any case, I have contacted the vicar and hope to learn more from local sources. Peace, Steven.
No you haven't mentioned that. Sounds interesting. :)
I hope the vicar gets back to you with more information. Whether it survives might of course depend on where Nathaniel scratched his initials, but if in an area which gets traffic, it could have worn smooth by now - possibly even through repeated cleaning?
I somehow think Nathaniel would have etched his initials in an out of the way place. :)
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I do agree that it looks like an italicised "Desi."
Just to clarify this, what I meant to say was that it looked like it began with an italicised 'D'; the other letters I gave were from memory without referring back to the photo. I don't disagree with Steven that the first three characters could well be "Dis".
RE: today's entry, Nat is very disapproving of insensitive architectural changes. I dread to think what his opinion would be of what they've done to Richmond Buildings since his time; it's perhaps as well that he isn't around to see it.
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It's very hard to remember sometimes that Nat is only 20 - not liking the change from oil to gas light ?
In 5 years there will be the Great Exhibition of 1851, the celebration of all things new and wonderful in the Victorian age. I wonder if Nat visits it? I can just imagine him wandering around it, snorting and saying 'well - what's the point of THAT?!' ;D
Margaret Nicholson's half hearted attempt to assassinate George III is still quite well known http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Nicholson
Carole
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Oh no - I think I'm going mad ... ::) I posted earlier about today's diary entry but I must have exited before I pressed "Post". Darn!
I will try to sort myself out and post later (bit busy tonight ... :-\)
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What a wonderful entry today, really gives the flavour of the architecture and the area.
Our Nat would have a shock if he could see London nowadays.
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yes, one of the better entries today. I find it dissapointing when we know there are 250 entries and some are just about the birthdate of a royal. Bit of a waste.
Not sure it Nat would like or not the total change to 33 now. Guess he would like it, as 33 is now an Italian Restaurant (IL Siciliano) and 33A is a hairdresser. Would suit Nats Coffee House visiting and his attention to his appearance.
There is a blue plaque above 33 - it relates to commemorating Dr Joseph Rogers. Couldnt find out much about him. Karl Marx lived further down the street for a time, lots about that blue plaque.
Read recently about Ms. Nicholson. If I recall, trying to kill the king was a hanging offence (not unreasonably) but he took pity on her and she spent the rest of her life in an asylum. Hanging or lifetime with lunatics, not much of a choice really.... but then she didnt have the choice.
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One of the things I posted earlier was ...
I think we should try to get a blue plaque for Richmond Buildings ... " Nathaniel Bryceson diarist and generally interesting personality 1826-1911 lived in a house on this site ..." ;D
How old do we think Number 33 is? It doesn't appear to bear any resemblance to the hotel Nat describes in today's entry.
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" Nathaniel Bryceson diarist and generally interesting personality 1826-1911 lived in a house on this site ..." ;D
Oh no! "....can only be erected on the actual building inhabited by a figure, not the site where the building once stood ..." :( But I'm sure I've seen instances of 'lived in a house on this site' .... :-\
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All is not lost! :) There is always this:
http://www.westminster.gov.uk/services/leisureandculture/greenplaques/
;D
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Oh no! "....can only be erected on the actual building inhabited by a figure, not the site where the building once stood ..." :( But I'm sure I've seen instances of 'lived in a house on this site' .... :-\
There are definitely blue plaques attached to sites of houses, rather than the actual house. See this one (from Frith Street; close by to Richmond Buildings actually) for instance:
(http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/snow/1859map/graphics/snowplaque54frifthstreet.gif)
Not sure why the thing you've read says otherwise; unless they've revised the criteria now.
It would be great to have one in Richmond Buildings though; considering how drab it is now.
EDIT: hmmm I'm wondering if that's actually an official blue plaque, given the Association wording round the edge. Oh well if other bodies can get "fake" ones put up then we can too :P
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hi to all
It's getting late here but I have read tomorrow's entry ...
Ann bought a book today .... so I googled :
wiki:
The Whole Duty of Man is an English Protestant devotional work, first published anonymously, with an introduction by Henry Hammond, in 1658. It was both popular and influential for two centuries, in the Anglican tradition it helped to define. The title is taken from Ecclesiastes 12:13, in the King James Version of the Bible: Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.[1]
The consensus view of modern scholars is that the likely author was Richard Allestree, but at the time of publication (towards the end of the Interregnum) the High Church tradition it represents was a politically dangerous position. The authorship was well concealed, and it has been noted that the work has been attributed to at least 27 people, beginning with Hammond himself.
was she trying to tell Nat something? ;D
deb
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Hi Deb - that's an interesting find. Nathaniel commented on the "plates". Both Ann and Nat seem to like prints etc.
I suppose we don't know if she bought this for the content or the pictures - a fairly heavy going kind of book which probably implies that Ann was educated and literate. She paid a fair amount for the book:
In 2008, £0 1s 3d from 1846 is worth
£4.51 using the retail price index.
£46.40 using average earnings.
So does this mean that Ann is Anglican? As she attends the Tottenham Court Road Chapel we did wonder whether she may have been non-conformist. :-\
Nathaniel made me laugh when he wrote that he didn't like "night feats which disorder the system and break the rest". Let your hair down Nathaniel! ::) He's a funny lad, our Nat. :)
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An interesting snippet about the bean feast:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/09ju/
I think Nathaniel is too refined for this kind of celebration. ;D
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Oh no! "....can only be erected on the actual building inhabited by a figure, not the site where the building once stood ..." :( But I'm sure I've seen instances of 'lived in a house on this site' .... :-\
There are definitely blue plaques attached to sites of houses, rather than the actual house. See this one (from Frith Street; close by to Richmond Buildings actually) for instance:
(http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/snow/1859map/graphics/snowplaque54frifthstreet.gif)
Not sure why the thing you've read says otherwise; unless they've revised the criteria now.
It would be great to have one in Richmond Buildings though; considering how drab it is now.
EDIT: hmmm I'm wondering if that's actually an official blue plaque, given the Association wording round the edge. Oh well if other bodies can get "fake" ones put up then we can too :P
Thanks for that information Ian. I knew I hadn't imagined seeing "in a house on this site" on blue plaques. You might be right about the wording around the edge. The 'genuine' ones are English Heritage and have been for x number of years. But as you have discovered there are others. I don't care which one we put on Richmond Buildings but I'd still like to see one on that ugly building. ;)
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From the Proceedings of the Old Bailey:
JOHN SMITH, Killing - murder, 17th August 1846
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18460817-1582a-offence-1&div=t18460817-1582a#highlight
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John Vincent Smith's murder of Susan Tolleday doesn't seem to have made great news
It certainly did make news. There was a widespread outcry against the death sentence. petitions were got up, etc and eventually the death sentence was commuted.
Try searching the newspaper databases for Susan Tolliday, Susan Tolloday, and John Smith W12 guildhall between August 15 and September 30 1846.
As ShaunJ pointed out, his sentence was commuted - I wonder what eventually happened to him?
It seems ridiculous these days how long the time takes between offence and trial and how long a trial will last - but it was so quick then!
Carole
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Hello everyone, I am Steven's mum.
I have been following Nathaniel's diary with interest and find it fascinating that people from all over the world are so completely absorbed in wanting to know all about this distant ancester of mine
(and Steven's).
I have also read every entry on RootsChat. It has taken me ages because a) I am pretty hopeless on a computer and b) everytime a name or place comes up I have to stop and see if I can google any info.
I would like to say a big `Thank You' to all of you all for your kind comments and wishes made in respect of my mother's death.
I know she was interested in hearing what was happening but she was not really into reading it all. She did know that in fact she wasn't a Bryceson but a White although it appears no-one really talked about it.
I would be nice to know if there are any other related Bryceson's around or any Whites. Mum did talk to me about cousins that were realted by her fathers side but I never met any and I can't now ask her if she did.
Please forgive the fact that I probably won't be making a habit of posting on here but I will be avidly reading your news and enjoying it.
Good luck and happy searching.
Ruth Saxby
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Welcome to rootschat Ruth! ;D
It's wonderful that you have joined us and it's amazing that you have read ALL of our discussion about Nathaniel. He and his exploits have certainly captured our imaginations over the past months. I find it interesting and educational as well as a bit of escapism from everyday life, to get involved in a fascinating discussion such as this.
Please pop in and contribute at any time.
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Hooray Mum! You made it!! Lots of love, Steven.x
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Hello Steven
Are you being sarcastic or what?
Weren't all the kind words lovely especially because they are from people we have never met and who never met Mum/Nan
Looking in graveyards must run in the family!
X
:)
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Just a little Mum! To all you guys out there, Mum can tell you that I have definately inherited NB's love of visiting churches and churchyards, even if this passion skipped my Mum's generation; the words "not another church Steven" ring in my ears, though these days I more often here "not another church Dad"! x
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Hi Ruth
We are all so glad to see you here! :)
Hi Steven ... I would love to visit Church Yards but I have no-one to visit here. I did have a great time, however, when I visited my Parents in Cornwall in March of this year. They traipsed me around from one to another.
My profile picture is where I went to visit my Gr Granparents :D
deb
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Dear All
Thank you for the welcome.
Yes I can confirm Steven's love of historical buildings, both churches and famous places. I even went to Rome with him but I did refuse to visit all 400 churches. I don't mind a few but after that I have had enough.....sorry!
Steven also has a love of books especially those that have info on the family tree. He loves to collect anything to do with the family.
Steven also loves coffee shops so I reckon he is an re-incarnation of NB the only difference is he does not stalk old ladies..LOL ;D
I know I said would not keep messaging but I had to reply to this.
Love
R
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I do envy you knowing so much about your ancestor and being able to think 'oh yes, Steven likes that too - it must be where it comes from'. It's one thing knowing you take after a grandparent but to know that after all those years Nathaniel's spirit lives on in the current generation is something very special.
Carole
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Glad you made it Ruth, welcome!
I hope you have enjoyed following the trail, these guys have gone to extraordinary lengths to find out so much about "our Nat", I've enjoyed watching them too.
It does seem as if Steven has many of his ancestor's personality traits, at least the good ones anyway.
Mary
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Dear All
Steven also loves coffee shops so I reckon he is an re-incarnation of NB the only difference is he does not stalk old ladies..LOL ;D
Dear Ruth ...I love your sense of humour! ;D ;D ;D
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Dear All
Steven also loves coffee shops so I reckon he is an re-incarnation of NB the only difference is he does not stalk old ladies..LOL ;D
Dear Ruth ...I love your sense of humour! ;D ;D ;D
I agree. You seem like a lot of fun Ruth. :) I hope you will join in regularly, even if just for the friendly banter.
We all enjoy discecting Nathaniel's personality and some of his actions. I love the fact that he's interesting and different and I think many of us are very fond of him despite his little idiosyncracies.
It really is remarkable how much Steven has in common with his ggggrandfather. ;)
I am still very interested that your family KNEW they were Whites rather than Brycesons. As we've mentioned previously, Nathaniel doesn't appear to know that he is a White. I am VERY curious to know how this was passed down the generations. Presumably Nathaniel was told at some stage who his real father was ...
In today's entry Nathaniel seems happy to mention that he had Ann up in his room - no italics! I would LOVE to know what the missing words are! Mongibello, is there any chance you could take a photo or two of the missing section? We may be able to decipher enough to make an educated guess at the missing words.
I think Nat would fit in well here on rootschat with his interest in tracing stranger's ancestors! ;D
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Just musing ....
St Martins in the Fields .... this was where his mother married John Bryceson in 1818 and was the home parish of John Bryceson when he died in 1824.
How much did Nat know about his mother's marriage? It's a typical Nat diary entry today. Copying down all the memorials and commenting on the church, while other people would have commented on the family connections. He's visited several churches with family connections but never commented on them. I think it's just Nat's peculiar way to be more interested in other (usually long dead) people than his own family.
It's also a bit odd that although there seem to have been no children of the marriage, 2 years after John Bryceson's death Nat was born.
Carole
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Dear All
In answer to Ruskies point about my Mum knowing she was actually a White not a Bryceson,
my Grandfather (Leo Bryceson-her father) was into genealogy and enjoyed old books. At one time he traced the Bryceson line and this was when it was discovered about the name difference. For some reason or other my Grandmother disposed of the information. Leo was rather eccentric and a horder, maybe she had just had enough and wanted a clear out. Maybe it was because he found out that way back the family were all theives and robbers (but so where a lot of people). Why do you think there are so many British families who headed out to USA and Australia....no offence meant!
It would have been great to see the tree. Leo was also a good musician and singer -so is Steven.
There is a possibility that Nathaniel never knew he was not in fact a Bryceson or maybe his mum was only just pregnant when his dad died and the records are slighly out.
My partner is adopted and in her records her birth date varies so does her maternal mothers age on each marriage record. Even in the adoption paper it says she was born on 3 different dates. On this we are only going back to 1960 so 160 years ago especially if his parents were illiterate there is a fair chance that they were not even sure of correct dates. Unless records are completely accurate this sort of thing can easily happen.
I must admit this is just supposition on my part.
keep hunting.
Ruth :)
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What a fab entry today! This would be a perfect day off for me. I am so pleased he went to church at St Martin's (where his Mum, my 4x great grandmother, got married to her first husband). My family have taken part in a 4 day, 73 mile walking pilgrimage from St Martin's (in Trafalgar Square) to Canterbury Cathedral every year (but one) since 2000. It is a great church, recently refurbished to the tune of £35 million! We also visited Johnson's house not too long ago so it is great to know NB went there too. I wonder what the public bath was like. I enjoy going for a steam bath/sauna from time to time, but never at 5.30am! All joy, Steven.
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I loved the print of the interior of St Martin, only wish I lived nearer to be able to see it now.
I get the feeling that bath was a weekly cleansing one, probably Nat was cleaner than many who didn't visit as often at that date.
Even as recently as the 1950's it was tradition to have a "weekly bath" usually on Saturday evening before Sunday church, so it seems this habit has continued for a long time.
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Good to see you posting here Ruth. Does that mean that your partner doesn't know exactly how old she is? That sounds quite difficult to live with these days. Has she chosen one date and uses that one? (Don't answer if it's too personal, I'm just curious...most people these days know exactly when they were born, some even to the minute!) I've got multiple instances in the past, though, of relatives merrily adding and removing up to 10 years in successive censuses!
What a terrible shame that your grandmother threw out your grandfather's research...maybe she was ashamed by the illegitimacy? That was quite a source of shame until quite recently. There wouldn't be anything for Steven to do now, though, if she'd kept it all!
I too would love to know what the '...' after Ann went up to Nat's room means! Perhaps he delved further into her cabinet?
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An entry in September will be make it clearer that NB's exploits with Ann are still fairly... how can I put this in the presence of my mother... "restricted"! x
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An entry in September will be make it clearer that NB's exploits with Ann are still fairly... how can I put this in the presence of my mother... "restricted"! x
You can stop that right now Steven! You're such a tease!!!!!
;D
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Dear All
In answer to Ruskies point about my Mum knowing she was actually a White not a Bryceson,
my Grandfather (Leo Bryceson-her father) was into genealogy and enjoyed old books. At one time he traced the Bryceson line and this was when it was discovered about the name difference. ..... There is a possibility that Nathaniel never knew he was not in fact a Bryceson
Ruth :)
Thanks for the explanation Ruth. I remember Steven mentioning leo's research when he first joined us. That all makes sense now ... ;)
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Dear Aniseed
Just to let you know my partner traced her birth mother and when we met her this woman couldn't even get her birth date right saying it was a long time ago and easily forgotten !!!!!!!!!!!!. I think the date she has as her birthday now is the one her adoptive parents had on the certificate and no it doesn't bother her in the least. We don't see her birth mother any more, she was a dreadful woman.
I see Steven has put "restricted" in my presence but I am in no way a prude. I have even seen Steven's wife's cabinet and believe me, it did used to be blue.
Ruth
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I have even seen Steven's wife's cabinet and believe me, it did used to be blue.
Ruth
;D ;D ;D
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I have even seen Steven's wife's cabinet and believe me, it did used to be blue.
Ruth
Well Ruth - I'm not sure that is something we really need to know ..... :o
;D
(PS. Hi Deb! Bye Deb ....)
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Just to let you know my partner traced her birth mother and when we met her this woman couldn't even get her birth date right saying it was a long time ago and easily forgotten !!!!!!!!!!!!. I think the date she has as her birthday now is the one her adoptive parents had on the certificate and no it doesn't bother her in the least. We don't see her birth mother any more, she was a dreadful woman.
How could she say her daughter's birth was easily forgotten!!!! Don't blame you both for not seeing her any more. Her adoptive parents are her 'real' parents, so the day they were told was her birthday seems a very good day to celebrate on.
I see Steven has put "restricted" in my presence but I am in no way a prude.
I think offspring always feel circumscribed by their parents' presence, even if there's no need! I think parents also enjoy confounding their offspring's expectations!
I have even seen Steven's wife's cabinet and believe me, it did used to be blue.
Like the Smurfs? ;)
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Dear all, Thought you might like a pic of the cabinet under discussion (my wife's that is not Ann Fox's). Peace, Steven.
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I remember my aunt having one of those in the kitchen at the old family house when I was little it used to fascinate me that the door that dropped down was used as a counter - well by Aunty Dilys anyway ..........I can see the loaf of bread on it now - wow what memories just a picture of an inanimate object can bring !
Thank you Steven ! :) :) :)
By the way I'm in my late 40's !
Nesta
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Oh, that is great Nesta!
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Hi Steven
Tell Christine she has done a lovely job.
Mum X
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That's a Maid Saver - my grandmother had a similar one, although sadly she never had a maid in the first place who could have been replaced by it ;D
Carole
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What a great cabinet! Does one of those cupboard doors have a vent in it? Was that for butter or some such? Thanks for posting the photo, Steven, I reckon you're lucky to have that in your house, I love it.
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We had one very similar in 1960s, except the drop-down part was full width and it was in a creamy-yellow colour. I'm sure we called it a "kitchenette" or a "cabinette". The drop-down part had an enamelled work surface on the inside under which lived an entire alien ecosystem :-X ugh....those were the days - sigh ;D
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Great cabinet Steven! ;)
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Yep, it has the vent and the enamelled pull-down work top. It belonged to my great aunt. My guess is they must have got it in 1941 after they were bombed out from their previous house. Mum may know more.
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Hi Ruth et al.
Just musing ....
St Martins in the Fields .... this was where his mother married John Bryceson in 1818 and was the home parish of John Bryceson when he died in 1824.
... It's a typical Nat diary entry today. Copying down all the memorials ...
I suspect Nat would most likely have seen John Bryceson's grave if one existed on his church visit. Knowing his own birth date he would have surely known he was not a true Bryceson. It would be nice to know if a grave or a monument transcription exists for John.
Linda
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Hi Ruth et al.
Just musing ....
St Martins in the Fields .... this was where his mother married John Bryceson in 1818 and was the home parish of John Bryceson when he died in 1824.
... It's a typical Nat diary entry today. Copying down all the memorials ...
I suspect Nat would most likely have seen John Bryceson's grave if one existed on his church visit. Knowing his own birth date he would have surely known he was not a true Bryceson. It would be nice to know if a grave or a monument transcription exists for John. Linda
Yes Nathaniel must have known John Bryceson was not his father IF he knew John's date of death.
28th Apr 1824
John Bryceson, age 39, abode: St Martin in the Field,
buried Pentonville Chapel, St James, Clerkenwell
John was buried in Pentonville Chapel. There may not have been a headstone for Nathaniel to see .... :-\
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Hello Ruskie
I don't know that Nathaniel knew the death date of John Bryceson. Took a search for John in the diary postings and didn't find Nat mentioning John's death. Wondered if a grave existed and he came across it in graveyard visits. Possibly then finding out John was not his father and discovered his illegitimacy. If the case, might account for the coolness that seems to exist towards his mother.
April 2nd he purchased 'The Portrait of John Milton the Poet at the age of 21 years’ . This is most likely what he purchased plus his in a dark frame http://www.rootschat.com/links/09ky/
Linda
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Hello Ruskie
I don't know that Nathaniel knew the death date of John Bryceson. Took a search for John in the diary postings and didn't find Nat mentioning John's death. Wondered if a grave existed and he came across it in graveyard visits. Possibly then finding out John was not his father and discovered his illegitimacy. If the case, might account for the coolness that seems to exist towards his mother.
Linda
No, I don't think he knew either.
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Worked by candle light for first time since Midsummer owing to the scamp of coalheavers leaving us with one gang only.
Does anyone know what a scamp is? Is it like a strike? Is it still due to the beanfeast? I'm a bit mystified this morning!
ETA: According to an online dictionary, Scamp can mean 'to go about idly', which I suppose would fit in...
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I think it means careless and slipshod so I imagine these particular workers were having a duvet day, very probably as a result of overindulgence. Fairly similar to what happens on a Monday now.
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Remember that on NB's marriage certificate he describes his father as Nathaniel Bryceson and his father's occupation as "cabinet maker". I sense humour is at work here and think Nat knew but may have been too ashamed to tell the Vicar (or even his wife). Somehow the White story was passed down, unless a family researcher found his baptism entry, but my guess is NB knew and told his son Henry or that Henry heard it from another relative NB has told.
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hi Steven
I also believe Nathaniel knew his father wasn't John Bryceson. I wonder if in one Pentonville Chapel grave yard wanderings he came across John's grave and discovered he couldn't possibly have been his father, confronted his mother with the facts and was told the details. I don't think he would have been told as a child he was illegitimate, especially since he went by surname Bryceson. Would love to know if there was a grave stone for John that could possibly add credance to this theory. Mission impossible for me. Have you added the Pentonville Chapel to your bucket list :)
Linda
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Remember that on NB's marriage certificate he describes his father as Nathaniel Bryceson and his father's occupation as "cabinet maker". I sense humour is at work here and think Nat knew but may have been too ashamed to tell the Vicar (or even his wife). Somehow the White story was passed down, unless a family researcher found his baptism entry, but my guess is NB knew and told his son Henry or that Henry heard it from another relative NB has told.
Your Mum thinks that Leo may have found Nathaniel's baptism as White. :-\
Yes, I get the impression that Nathaniel was a stickler for doing things the right way, and that he would have been a bit embarrassed to say his father was 'White' or leave this part of the marriage certificate blank, so he decided to say his father was Nathaniel Bryceson for the sake of respectability. :)
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Mrs Patton & Mrs. S were a real interest to Nat as they lived and were living long lives. I doubt it had anything to do with the sex of the person. No worries Steven, if the apple doesn't fall far from the tree here ;D.
Jan 26: Purchased book in Princes Street, Soho, opposite George Yard, on Human Longevity with a brief account of some persons who have lived a century afterwards from AD 66 to 1799.
The book is 248 pages. 1712 centarians! Would you believe it. Wonder how many were older than Mrs. P. ;D
Human longevity: recording the name, age, place of residence, and year, of the decease of 1712 persons, who attained a century, & upwards, from A.D. 66 to 1799, comprising a period of 1733 years, with anecdotes of the most remarkable / compiled by James Easton, 1823.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/09l6/
Linda
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Nathaniel Bryceson's Book Bag (books, maps, etc.) per diary entries:
Jan 7: small book for accounts ...
Jan 26: book … on Human Longevity …
Human longevity: recording the name, age, place of residence, and year, of the decease of 1712 persons, who attained a century, & upwards, from A.D. 66 to 1799, comprising a period of 1733 years, with anecdotes of the most remarkable / compiled by James Easton, 1823.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/09l6/
Feb 21: print of William Hogarth in gilt frame … date thereof 1795.
Feb 24: antique Pocket Bible … date 1648
Pious annotations upon the holy Bible by Giovanni Diodati (2nd edition) translated by R.G, 1648. A 40 page book. Google books notes a reference with this ‘Giovanni Diodati, the uncle of John Milton's best friend, Charles’ and Nat did purchase a print with subject John Milton. Surely must be the book.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/09l7/
Apr 2nd: 'The Portrait of John Milton the Poet at the age of 21 years’ http://www.rootschat.com/links/09ky/
Apr 30: five maps – parts of London and its suburbs – dated 1790 to 1800
May 22: Ainsworth’s ‘Latin-English and English-Latin Dictionary’ dated 1761
Thesaurus linguæ latinæ compendiarius: or, a compendious dictionary of the Latin tongue: designed for the use of the British nations: In three parts. ... By Robert Ainsworth. – printed by H. Woodfall and C. Rivington, for W. Mount and T. Page, C. Hitch and L. Hawes, B. Barker, J. Pote [and 19 others in London], 1761
http://www.rootschat.com/links/09l8/
Jul 6: eight old prints
Jul 17: engraving ‘Death of General Wolfe’ by Woollett, framed and glazed, dated 1776
http://website.nbm-mnb.ca/Wolfe/ThePhenomenon.html
http://www.rootschat.com/links/09l9/
Aug 14: ‘Johnson’s Dictionary’ 1786 … condition first rate, bound in russet leather
Johnson’s dictionary / Samuel Johnson. – printed for J.F. and C. Rivington, L. Davis, T. Longman, 1786
A later entry, Aug 23 emphasis’ his interest in literary works and persons. “ before 8 o’clock took walk with Ann through the Strand and Fleet Street, Gough Square and Johnson’s Court where Dr Johnson composed his English Dictionary”
http://www.rootschat.com/links/09la/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Johnson
He must have influenced Ann as Aug 21st she bought old edition of ‘The Whole Duty of Man’, with very good plates.
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Mrs Patton & Mrs. S were a real interest to Nat as they lived and were living long lives. I doubt it had anything to do with the sex of the person.
He also noted older men. Aug 17 entry mentions Sir Charles Wetherell's death and he of age 75 years.
Linda
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Thanks for compiling that list Linda! ;D It makes interesting reading.
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Thanks for compiling that list Linda! ;D It makes interesting reading.
Interesting reading? I'm not sure that was my first thought reading through that list! ;D
Even for 1846 that was a heavy reading list for a 20 year old. He should have been amusing himself reading novels by people like Sir Walter Scott and Captain Marryat - or, considering I'm increasingly seeing him as one of those quirky characters that inhabit his novels - Charles Dickens.
Carole
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Nowadays Ann would have bought a copy of "OK" or "Hello Magazine, whilst Nat read FHM or Nuts.
:-\
Ive read FHM whilst waiting at my Barbers. I found some quite nice 'plates' and illustrations on those pages too. Guess it was the wrong magazine if you were more interested in carpentry. ::)
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Nowadays Ann would have bought a copy of "OK" or "Hello Magazine, whilst Nat read FHM or Nuts.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Thanks for compiling that list Linda! ;D It makes interesting reading.
Interesting reading? I'm not sure that was my first thought reading through that list! ;D
Even for 1846 that was a heavy reading list for a 20 year old. He should have been amusing himself reading novels by people like Sir Walter Scott and Captain Marryat - or, considering I'm increasingly seeing him as one of those quirky characters that inhabit his novels - Charles Dickens.
Carole
No no no - I didn't mean that the books would have been interesting to read ... I meant that it was interesting to see the list of books that Nathaniel bought. ;D
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I suspect the interesting reading may be a desire of a further education, which may not have been in reach. A cut above others, being able to read & write, but not enough to pursue his interests, possibly architecture or writing and/or taken seriously as Carole mentioned. Likely many of the young men in his immediate surroundings didn't share his interests / desires. He went off viewing the buildings, buying books of interest, doing his own thing.
In human longevity, this might be the oldest man NB has noted so far.
Feb 1: Saw a very aged man at the top of Maiden Lane near Copenhagen House, with a large placard on his breast stating his age to be 92 years. Gave him a penny for the curiosity of himself, for old age was written in his face and limbs.
Linda
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Feb 1 Top of Maiden Lane near Copenhagen House NB passes the 92 year old man.
http://www.londonancestor.com/views/vb-copen.htm
http://www.rootschat.com/links/09lk/
http://archivemaps.com/mapco/cary1837/cary11.htm
One could insert the old man and NB giving him a penny near Copenhagen House. The second link has a pic and is a book with publication date 1881, so no violation of copyright. Maybe something the restoration board would consider doing. Would make an interesting addition to a life story, if one was written. I will ask them.
Update: Link to representative image for Feb 1 diary entry
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=478344.new
Linda
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I had a look at the site of the Pentonville Chapel yesterday. The chapel has been replaced by an office block but the graveyard is the Joseph Grimaldi Park. He was a clown and actor who is buried there. There are some gravestones set against the walls but no luck for John B. However it would have been possible for Nathaniel to have come across John's grave and questioned his mother. I suspect a deathbed confession is more likely.
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Interesting idea Mongibello. There may also be the possibility of Matthew Ward or Granny Sheppard telling him after his mother's death.
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I had a look at the site of the Pentonville Chapel yesterday. The chapel has been replaced by an office block but the graveyard is the Joseph Grimaldi Park. He was a clown and actor who is buried there. There are some gravestones set against the walls but no luck for John B. However it would have been possible for Nathaniel to have come across John's grave and questioned his mother. I suspect a deathbed confession is more likely.
Thanks very much for looking Mongibello. At least that's one more thing we can cross off our list. :) I suppose it's also possible that there was no gravestone for John ... :-\
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Interesting idea Mongibello. There may also be the possibility of Matthew Ward or Granny Sheppard telling him after his mother's death.
thats what I suspected..... possibly granny. His Mum wasnt expected to last the night a couple months ago, and she didnt tell him then.... or she did and he didnt feel it worth a diary mention - which it surely would be!
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I received a reply from Westminster Archives to my question about the purchase of the diary and it's whereabouts before that.
Here is the reply:
I did contact Miss Swarbrick about the acquisition of the diary and I have heard back from her. Apparently it was she who bought it, not Mr Osborn, although he did the index. Winifred Myers, the vendor, was someone who sold manuscripts, but I was unable to find her listed in the Kelly's Post Office London Directory for 1972. I had wondered whether she might have been another descendant of Nathaniel's, but obviously not. Miss Swarbrick says of the diary "it came with no provenance and was not part of a larger archive". So the mystery of its custodianship between 1846 and 1972 still remains!
So, unfortunately nothing to help us there. I have replied asking if Miss Swarbrick purchased the diary from Miss Myers or from her estate as we discussed a while ago. I suspect the latter.
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Today's entry:
"Sent copy of verses of own composing to Mr Walker relative to his late removal of his old round lamp – sent it through the post."
Does this mean that Nathaniel is also a poet? :o
I would LOVE to read the verses he sent to Mr Walker!!! ;D He must have felt very strongly about this to put pen to paper. He's a funny lad Nathaniel ... :)
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I know he didn't like the new light - do you think Nat sent Mr Walker an anomymous threatening poem ? ;) ;D
I expect the diaries got split up when Aleck Abrahams died - this one probably survived because as it was written in the old ledger it looked better than the others.
Carole
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Heh I love today's entry. Maybe Nat is the original "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells."
So, unfortunately nothing to help us there. I have replied asking if Miss Swarbrick purchased the diary from Miss Myers or from her estate as we discussed a while ago. I suspect the latter.
I don't think it's the latter; there's plenty of evidence online that Winifred Myers was donating or selling manuscripts to collections well into the 1980s (though I'm fairly sure she's passed away since then.) In fact she subsequently sold some ancient wills to Westminster themselves in 1981 (i.e. seven years after she sold the diary to them):
http://www3.westminster.gov.uk/docstores/publications_store/archives/infosheet10.pdf
This additional collection of 645 wills was purchased from Winifred A Myers (Autographs) Limited, of
91 St Martin’s Lane, in May 1981. All these wills have been entered onto the Wills Database, and a
bound printout is available in the Searchroom (arranged both by name and date).
Still thanks for chasing it up; it's useful to know that the diaries had already been separated by the time Westminster Archives acquired the 1846 one. Although it's not impossible that Winifred Myers acquired more and had sold them previously (but I'd say unlikely, since it's hard to imagine why any buyer would not want the set, unless it was a matter of expense.)
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I do think a writer of poetry, with his purchase of print of John Miller and those dictionaries to augment his vocabulary. I wonder if the Feb 21st purchase - print of William Hogarth ... date thereof 1795 may have been a print edition if one exists of the Distressed Poet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Distrest_Poet
Linda
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I took 'verse' as an old fashioned (1846 english) way of saying he wrote him a letter, not a poem. Kinda like the biblical derived saying "i gave it to him chapter and verse". I dont see that anyone would complain about changes to a building in a poem........
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I took 'verse' as an old fashioned (1846 english) way of saying he wrote him a letter, not a poem. Kinda like the biblical derived saying "i gave it to him chapter and verse". I dont see that anyone would complain about changes to a building in a poem........
Yeah, I didn't read it as suggesting that it was an actual poem. Not because I don't think that Nat would be interested in writing poetry, but just because I don't think he would consider it appropriate in this instance. I took "verse" more to suggest the idea that he wasn't interested in starting a dialogue with Mr. Walker on the matter, only in giving him a piece of his mind. (Something more like a "rant" in modern usage.)
The interesting thing about diaries (or one of them) for me is how the brevity of them gives each word far more import than it would do if you were writing an essay or something where the idea was to make sure the reader was correctly following what you're saying. Like in today's entry I find myself speculating over the fact that the word "afterwards" is in shorthand, even though it seems in context that it would be more logical to either put it in longhand or just miss it out altogether. I f find myself wondering what exactly he and Ann got up to as a result...
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Carole, of course our Nathaniel didn't send an anonymous threatening poem to old Mr Walker! :o Anonymous perhaps ;) ... but threatening ... no! Never! :)
I thought that as Nathaniel said "verses of his own composing" that he meant he'd sent Mr Walker a poem. Why wouldn't he just have said "I wrote him a letter"?
Who else would have 'composed' something that Nathaniel sent to Mr Walker? :-\ I may be off the mark here, but it seems an odd way to say he wrote him a letter.
I suppose he was offering Mr Walker some support as neither of them approved of the modernisation of the lighting. They might well have been the only two people in the parish who didn't like the new lights. Amended due to error in not realising it was actually Mr Walker who had made the change to the light.
Thanks Ian for the additonal information about Miss Myers and her wheeling and dealing. What an interesting character she must have been.
Yes I wish Nathaniel wasn't so brief with his descriptions too Ian. ;D A little while ago there was mention of Ann but not in italics - this may have been an error on behalf of the Archives rather than Nathaniel forgetting that he should've written this in shorthand. I suppose half the fun of it is trying to get inside Nathaniel's head and work out what, how and why he was thinking and acting as he did. I love it! ;)
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I suppose he was offering Mr Walker some support as neither of them approved of the modernisation of the lighting. They might well have been the only two people in the parish who didn't like the new lights. :)
I think you're getting mixed up a bit; Mr. Walker was the proprietor of the hotel in question (see 20th Aug entry); in Nat's mind he was the one responsible for the "displeasing" alteration, so I can't imagine that whatever he said was very supportive. Although I doubt it would have been threatening, just highly critical of his actions.
I realise "verses" is a strange term to use; I'm just proceeding on the assumption that it's usage was a bit different back then. They certainly used "cabinet" a bit differently heh
Yes I wish Nathaniel wasn't so brief with his descriptions too Ian. ;D A little while ago there was mention of Ann but not in italics - this may have been an error on behalf of the Archives rather than Nathaniel forgetting that he should've written this in shorthand. I suppose half the fun of it is trying to get inside Nathaniel's head and work out what, how and why he was thinking and acting as he did. I love it! ;)
I do suspect that like you say there are mistakes in the way the entries have been transcribed; there's definitely been one or two bits where the lack of italics is suspect.
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Also as we've seen from the shorthand deciphering thread here http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,477954.0.html shorthand is very much open to misinterpretation ... maybe Nathaniel was talking about seeing the hairs on her coat!
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I suppose he was offering Mr Walker some support as neither of them approved of the modernisation of the lighting. They might well have been the only two people in the parish who didn't like the new lights. :)
I think you're getting mixed up a bit; Mr. Walker was the proprietor of the hotel in question (see 20th Aug entry); in Nat's mind he was the one responsible for the "displeasing" alteration, so I can't imagine that whatever he said was very supportive. Although I doubt it would have been threatening, just highly critical of his actions.
Yes, I have now re-read the entry - I was incorrect and now realise it was Mr Walker himself who made the change to the light. I have amended my comment above ... :-[
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Occasionally people write poems to our local paper complaining about the local council or as a particular recent example, the closure of a local school. I think writing a poem can be a way of registering your disapproval without being too aggressive and possibly in a humorous way, so my vote would be for NB having written in rhyming verse.
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maybe Nathaniel was talking about seeing the hairs on her coat!
great minds think alike. I made the same joke a day or so after the post and it floated like a lead balloon. :)
"Compose" is a word you would use to describe writing a letter. In 1846 language its more than possible verses referred to a letter, not a poem. The bible is composed of verses, and it is in no way a poem.
If he did, perhaps it went like
The other night
I saw your light
what an awful fright
please put it right
I cannot stand its awful sight
to me it looks a piece of
bad architecture
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Ha Ha Steve! Although I think the last line should be "to me it is a terrible blight" cos that scans better ;)
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I wonder if he signed it "Disgusted of Richmond Buildings"? ;D
Carole
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Hi everyone :)
Found Mr Walker, in 1841.
Dean Street
William Walker, 65, HOTEL, NOT born in county
Sarah Newcomb, 55, NBIC
Elizabeth ditto, 60, NBIC
George ditto, 20 NBIC
We even know how he dressed thanks to Nat :)
The proprietor thereof is very old both in years and fashion, wearing at all times a black suit with breeches and black stockings,
deb
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I just did some looking for what became of Walker's Hotel; as far as I can see the original building is still there at 33 Dean Street, it can be seen on Google Maps by clicking here. (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=dean+street+london&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=67.927902,56.513672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Dean+St,+London,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.513733,-0.132581&spn=0.001631,0.001725&z=19&layer=c&cbll=51.513733,-0.132581&panoid=b2SP2tBrPK-fhYFUTuwvCQ&cbp=12,96.64,,0,-2.42) (Note that what was Queen Street in Nat's time is now Bateman Street.) Seems it's an Italian restaurant now, and no sign of the controversial square lamp that so outraged Nat, sadly.
There's a blue plaque on the building saying that the health campaigner Joseph Rogers (1821 - 1889) lived there at some point. Presumably this was after it ceased to be a hotel.
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I made the same joke a day or so after the post and it floated like a lead balloon. :)
I thought it was very funny, I guess I should have posted to say so. (I thought I had, but evidently not...sorry!)
What a shame about them tearing down the old Westminster bridge (if they did...) it sounds amazing with canopy towers and seats in them. It sounds a bit as if the Victorian planners were very similar to those in the 1960s...out with the old and in with the (vastly inferior) new. What a shame...I'm with Nat on this.
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What a shame about them tearing down the old Westminster bridge (if they did...) it sounds amazing with canopy towers and seats in them. It sounds a bit as if the Victorian planners were very similar to those in the 1960s...out with the old and in with the (vastly inferior) new. What a shame...I'm with Nat on this.
I agree up to a point about that, but it's worth looking into the specifics in this case (it so happens I already looked into it this morning when I read Nat's entry):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westminster_Bridge
Apparently the bridge from Nat's time had subsidence problems; it's quite possible that back then the only solution was to start again from scratch (nowadays no doubt there are other possibilities.) Sure they could have rebuilt it exactly as it was before, but then there would've been risk of the same thing happening again.
More to the point, the bridge they replaced it with is apparently now the oldest bridge in London still surviving, and isn't aesthetically displeasing. So it probably shows that what can be a symbol of brutal modernisation becomes history itself if it survives long enough.
Oh and I enjoyed the"coat" joke first time around too! I may have only read it on catching up though, which is why I didn't post.
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I don't think it's the latter; there's plenty of evidence online that Winifred Myers was donating or selling manuscripts to collections well into the 1980s (though I'm fairly sure she's passed away since then.) In fact she subsequently sold some ancient wills to Westminster themselves in 1981 (i.e. seven years after she sold the diary to them):
Just for the record: Miss Winifred Alice MYERS died in Westminster on 19 Feb 1985, and her obituary (as "the doyenne of autograph dealers") appeared in The Times of 26 Feb 1985. The company through which she traded, Winifred A. Myers (Autographs) Ltd, seems to have continued trading, or at least donating items, for some time thereafter (the Wellcome Foundation lists accessions from it dated as late as 1992) but has since been dissolved.
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Just for the record: Miss Winifred Alice MYERS died in Westminster on 19 Feb 1985, and her obituary (as "the doyenne of autograph dealers") appeared in The Times of 26 Feb 1985. The company through which she traded, Winifred A. Myers (Autographs) Ltd, seems to have continued trading, or at least donating items, for some time thereafter (the Wellcome Foundation lists accessions from it dated as late as 1992) but has since been dissolved.
Ahh cool; thanks for filling in another piece of the puzzle. Sad to have it confirmed she died; without her efforts we might not have Nat's 1846 diary today, or any number of other important documents that are in various collectons around the country.
It's interesting that there was some continued trading by her company after her death; it suggests that it passed into someone else's hands (a relative?) for at least a while before they (presumably) gave up. So maybe any paperwork associated with the business did too. Since she was a trader, I'm sure she would've filed away paperwork for all her acquisitions, including NB's diary. Of course it's a really long shot that the paperwork would still be around, although not impossible.
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Found this while googling Winifred Myers.
http://www.richardfordmanuscripts.co.uk/catalogue/5753
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maybe Nathaniel was talking about seeing the hairs on her coat!
great minds think alike. I made the same joke a day or so after the post and it floated like a lead balloon. :)
I spotted your joke and I sniggered at it. I just didn't say so at the time :D
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Found this while googling Winifred Myers.
http://www.richardfordmanuscripts.co.uk/catalogue/5753
Yeah I came across that myself previously. I'm guessing "Myers & Co" was an earlier incarnation of the family business; actually some of the older Myers & Co catalogues have been digitised:
http://www.archive.org/stream/illustratedcatal00myerrich#page/n5/mode/2up
It's worth taking a quick look, as they seem very elaborate publications in their own right with full-page illustrations of some of the books in question. But then I guess it makes sense that a book trader trading in old manuscripts would want to make their own catalogues as elaborate as possible as a matter of pride.
It would be nice to look through the complete set of catalogues to see what could be found in them. I'm guessing that they produced one each year. Maybe the 1974 one had Nat's diary listed, and that's how Westminster found out about it. Who knows what could have been listed in earlier editions...
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maybe Nathaniel was talking about seeing the hairs on her coat!
great minds think alike. I made the same joke a day or so after the post and it floated like a lead balloon. :)
I spotted your joke and I sniggered at it. I just didn't say so at the time :D
Im beginning to feel guilty now :) - personally I prefer my poem. ;)
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The other night
I saw your light
what an awful fright
please put it right
I cannot stand its awful sight
to me it looks a piece of
bad architecture
Very creative Steve! But don't give up the day job. ;D
The last line is my personal favourite. ;)
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BTW I like Steve's usage of plates :o
The British Library has holdings for the catalogue with author = MYERS, Winifred A., AUTOGRAPHS LTD. Record indicates from 1965- , may not be complete.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/09nu/
Nice to leaf through that digitized one Drykid.
Winifred A. Myers (Autographs) Ltd. registered at Companies House on Nov 26, 1957. Registration no. 00594309
http://www.rootschat.com/links/09nv/
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The British Library has holdings for the catalogue with author = MYERS, Winifred A., AUTOGRAPHS LTD. Record indicates from 1965- , may not be complete.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/09nu/
Interesting.... I was at the British Library last week for an exhibition - I wish I'd known then. Might pop back now and see if I can get a look at those; 1965 onwards would be the period of most interest anyway.
No new diary entries till Saturday *sigh*
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With nothing going on in the diary I've had a bit of a roundup of all the (obvious) possible Nathaniel Whites:
Free BMD Deaths From 1837-1885:
Nathaniel White March 1846 West London
,, ,, Dec 1850 St George's Hanover Square (in burial records)
,, ,, Jan 1855 Greenwich (burial records aged 5)
,, ,, Dec 1862 Marylebone (in burial records)
Ancestry London Parish Burials:
Nathaniel White of Sutton buried St Nicholas Sutton 20 June 1833 aged 28
Nathaniel White of New street buried 6 Aug 1834 St John Horsleydown Tooley Street Bermondsey aged 52
Nathaniel White of 50 Brook Street St George Hanover Square buried All Souls Kensington 17 Nov 1850 aged 53
(Nathaniel White buried Woolwich 1855 aged 5)
Nathaniel White buried 4 Dec 1862 St Marylebone aged 77
Ancestry London Marriages 1813-1857:
Nathaniel White bach and Sarah Bull widow both otp married St Sepulchre 11 Aug 1813
Nathaniel White and Mary Ann Johnson both otp and single married St Dunstan Stepney 10 July 1814
Nathaniel White of St Marys and Elizabeth warren of Kensington married St Mary Bryanston Square 26 June 1844
1841 Census
Nathaniel White aged 35 (b.c.1806) labourer living Lambeth
Nathaniel White aged 50 chairmaker (not born London) Quebec Street Marylebone
Nathaniel White aged 40 servant Church Street St John Hackney (with Elizabeth warren -married 1844)
Nathaniel White aged 30 High Street Tottenham
Nathaniel White the chairmaker still looks the most obvious candidate to be Nat's father. Why didn't they marry? He was unmarried and Mary gave her son his Christian name ? ? ?
Carole
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Great summary Carole.
I agree that the chairmaker still looks the most likely. I traced him through the censuses (can't remember where that is ... :-\) and he remained a bachelor. He doesn't seem to have been a pauper though. Unless he was ill and had a period of unemployment hence being in the workhouse when Nathaniel was born.
Why didn't he and Mary marry? :-\ Could be a million reasons but in those days less so - yes, you would have thought that they would have married ...
Today's entry is very interesting and of historical significance. Not surprisingly, Nathaniel is not a happy lad about the demolition of this bridge.
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Westminster Bridge was subsiding badly by 1846. In fact there had been problems with subsidence when it was being built. The new bridge was not finished until 1862. That one is the current one and has recently been refurbished.
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Westminster Bridge was subsiding badly by 1846. In fact there had been problems with subsidence when it was being built. The new bridge was not finished until 1862. That one is the current one and has recently been refurbished.
Thanks for the insight Mongibello. :)
I notice in today's entry, once again, Nathaniel comments about the gas lamps. I would love to read his later diaries (if he kept them) to see how he felt about all the new 'inventions' that he sees before his death.
I wish you could see us now Nathaniel. :-\
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Sunday 6th September is a very typical Nathaniel Sunday - a trip to a church, an attempt at vandalism, stopped because there was a policeman there and the usual italic with Ann ;D
It did remind me - because I had forgotten about it - that if we want any blackberry jelly this year I had better go out and pick some.
Carole
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Sunday 6th September is a very typical Nathaniel Sunday - a trip to a church, an attempt at vandalism, stopped because there was a policeman there and the usual italic with Ann ;D
Yeah, that was my thought too; it covered all bases really. Sundays always seem to have the most intereresting entries. It might be my favourite entry in the diary so far, anyway. Although I sincerely hope that the statement "interfered with a policeman" is missing a "by"...
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That made me laugh too! He got told off last Sunday for looking round the church just after the service by an old man, ticked off by a policeman this week; people don't seem to have welcomed him with open arms, did he maybe look suspicious?! Maybe with good reason, though, he really is intent on carving his initials into every church porch in the area.
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That made me laugh too! He got told off last Sunday for looking round the church just after the service by an old man, ticked off by a policeman this week; people don't seem to have welcomed him with open arms, did he maybe look suspicious?! Maybe with good reason, though, he really is intent on carving his initials into every church porch in the area.
Well considering by 1848 (if the sole entry fom that diary surviving is anything to go by) he'd progressed to stealing skulls from graveyards, they probaby were justified in treating him with some suspicion. But that's half the appeal of the diary really; you're never exactly sure what he's going to do next. The only disappointment for me with this entry is he didn't stalk Mrs. Skirricker for a bit while he was at it. Then it would've been perfect :)
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I really miss Mrs S. I was so hoping for just another clue or two to help us finally pin her down.
Carole
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I thought that yesterday's entry was very amusing too.
I know that many of the places which have been swallowed up by "Greater London" in the 1840's were villages. I still need reminding of this though as I just can't imagine how it must have been. So here is a picture of an idyllic looking Hendon Church:
http://www.londonancestor.com/views/vc-hendon.htm
It still looks nice now: ;)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/satguru/218789844/
Just over 7 miles from Hendon to Richmond Buildings, so a bit of a lazy day for Nathaniel ... no wonder he had plenty of energy to try to 'paw up' Ann. ;D
Yet MORE details of the gas lamps today. :P
Forget Mrs Skirricker, it's the gas lamps that are Nathaniel's latest obsession. :)
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Having gas lamps installed would have been a big jump in technology for the time - Nat has mentioned a week or so back about having to work by oil lamp / candle light. I guess we are used to technology nowadays, but this would have been big for Nat.
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As he was so annoyed at poor old Mr Walker having hs old oil lamp removed and a new gas one fitted instead I wonder how he feels about gas light coming to Ecclestone Wharf - or will the improvement in the amount of light he gets win him over?
Carole
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I checked some time ago but the gateposts had been changed long ago and there was no sign of NB1.
The Greyhound pub is still there and the Church, pub and Church Farmhouse make a fine group today. The farmhouse is the Barnet Borough Museum.
All this is at the top of the hill overlooking the area that was Hendon Aerodrome, set up originally about the time that Nathaniel died.
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I checked some time ago but the gateposts had been changed long ago and there was no sign of NB1.
The Greyhound pub is still there and the Church, pub and Church Farmhouse make a fine group today. The farmhouse is the Barnet Borough Museum.
All this is at the top of the hill overlooking the area that was Hendon Aerodrome, set up originally about the time that Nathaniel died.
That's interesting - thanks Mongibello. I'm not at all surprised that the gateposts are no longer there.
I had problems finding current photos of St Mary Hendon (apart from the winter scene posted above). I looked on google maps and noticed Church Farmhouse but couldn't see the church on streetview. I think it may have been behind trees. :)
It seems like Nathaniel is very impressed with the gas lamps in his office.
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Having gas lamps installed would have been a big jump in technology for the time - Nat has mentioned a week or so back about having to work by oil lamp / candle light. I guess we are used to technology nowadays, but this would have been big for Nat.
I was puzzled by that entry and the way he phrased it -
Monday 24th August 1846
Worked by candle light for first time since Midsummer owing to the scamp of coalheavers leaving us with one gang only.
Scamps were thieves, so were coal-heavers being poached by some underhand means, leaving them short-handed, and short of coal?
Did the wharf have a gas generator of it's own but didn't have the coal supply to power it, so that he had to resort to candles?
Puzzling,
Colin
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I had problems finding current photos of St Mary Hendon (apart from the winter scene posted above). I looked on google maps and noticed Church Farmhouse but couldn't see the church on streetview. I think it may have been behind trees. :)
The church on Streetview (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&q=NW4+4JT&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=London+NW4+4JT,+United+Kingdom&gl=uk&ei=4TKHTPeMEYaH4Qat08mXAQ&ved=0CBYQ8gEwAA&ll=51.591083,-0.22743&spn=0,0.02135&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.591147,-0.227542&panoid=Fa4aeF8NU3tk7X8wdholwA&cbp=12,340.66,,0,5), with the Greyhound pub to the fore. I don't think it's possible to see the burial ground itself though as the road that runs to the rear of the church hasn't been visited by the Google cameras as far as I can see.
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I was puzzled by that entry and the way he phrased it -
Monday 24th August 1846
Worked by candle light for first time since Midsummer owing to the scamp of coalheavers leaving us with one gang only.
Scamps were thieves, so were coal-heavers being poached by some underhand means, leaving them short-handed, and short of coal?
Did the wharf have a gas generator of it's own but didn't have the coal supply to power it, so that he had to resort to candles?
I took it to mean that they were short-handed so had to work later into the evening and NB needed artificial light to do his books.
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Having realised the benefits of gas perhaps Nat will pen an apology to Mr Walker? :wink: Although I think I remember, but can't be bothered to Google it, that gas lit rooms tended to give people bad headaches.
Carole
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I had problems finding current photos of St Mary Hendon (apart from the winter scene posted above). I looked on google maps and noticed Church Farmhouse but couldn't see the church on streetview. I think it may have been behind trees. :)
The church on Streetview (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&q=NW4+4JT&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=London+NW4+4JT,+United+Kingdom&gl=uk&ei=4TKHTPeMEYaH4Qat08mXAQ&ved=0CBYQ8gEwAA&ll=51.591083,-0.22743&spn=0,0.02135&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.591147,-0.227542&panoid=Fa4aeF8NU3tk7X8wdholwA&cbp=12,340.66,,0,5), with the Greyhound pub to the fore. I don't think it's possible to see the burial ground itself though as the road that runs to the rear of the church hasn't been visited by the Google cameras as far as I can see.
Ah, thanks very much for that. ;D I feel a bit embarassed :-[ I was looking towards the other side of the road (the Uni I believe?) Still the church is quite obscured.
There's a very interesting little building a little down the road (Church End) at number 40. ;D There are a few really nice buildings around the church - I imagine it must have been much lovelier in Nathaniel's day.
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The Greyhound pub is still there and the Church, pub and Church Farmhouse make a fine group today. The farmhouse is the Barnet Borough Museum.
London borough of Barnet must, I suspect have more than one museum, as the one im familiar with is in Wood St, Chipping Barnet.
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Re The 24 August entry. I think he means he had to work late into the evening.
As to the gas supply, this would probably have come from the Gas Light & Coke Company's plant in Great Peter Street, just round the corner from the Archives. This was set up in 1812 but seems to have taken a long time to catch on. Even Buckingham Palace & the Houses of Parliament were not supplied until the 1840s.
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No entries for the 9th and 10th of September which is very disappointing. I wonder if Nathaniel is either too busy to write in his diary, or nothing has happened that he feels is worth writing about OR he just can't be bothered ... :)
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No entries for the 9th and 10th of September which is very disappointing. I wonder if Nathaniel is either too busy to write in his diary, or nothing has happened that he feels is worth writing about OR he just can't be bothered ... :)
I have days like that - my diary is littered with entries which read "nuffin much"
Carole
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No entries for the 9th and 10th of September which is very disappointing. I wonder if Nathaniel is either too busy to write in his diary, or nothing has happened that he feels is worth writing about OR he just can't be bothered ... :)
I have days like that - my diary is littered with entries which read "nuffin much"
Carole
;D
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The Greyhound pub is still there and the Church, pub and Church Farmhouse make a fine group today. The farmhouse is the Barnet Borough Museum.
London borough of Barnet must, I suspect have more than one museum, as the one im familiar with is in Wood St, Chipping Barnet.
The Hendon one is official & the Chipping Barnet on is a semi private venture
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A google search shows the Wood Street museum as the original, founded in the 1930's where the "church farmhouse museum" was opened 20 years later in 1955.
http://www.barnetmuseum.co.uk/
http://www.barnet.gov.uk/index/leisure-culture/museums-galleries/churchfarmhouse-history.htm
Looks as you say that barnet council seem to promote the farmhouse one and have the wood st as run by a local society. First page of the wood st link seems to promote an interesting looking diary....
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A google search shows the Wood Street museum as the original, founded in the 1930's where the "church farmhouse museum" was opened 20 years later in 1955.
http://www.barnetmuseum.co.uk/
http://www.barnet.gov.uk/index/leisure-culture/museums-galleries/churchfarmhouse-history.htm
Looks as you say that barnet council seem to promote the farmhouse one and have the wood st as run by a local society. First page of the wood st link seems to promote an interesting looking diary....
Of course up to 1965 Hendon and Barnet were separate boroughs with Finchley in between
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Ive contacted you by messager off line Mongibello as dont want to bore others :)
Todays post looks like a bit of juicy financial scandal. I cant imagine a bank not wanting your money :) Perhaps this is the start of the slippery slide for the business. With the recent cost of the gas installation you would expect they were doing well......
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Oooh yes, a nice bit of gossip today.
Does anyone know why the bank wouldn't take the money?
I love the way Nathaniel says of the bridge: "... it looketh quite a wreck..." :D
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I'm mystifyed as to why a bank wouldn't want to take money ??? The London and Westminster Bank has quite a complicated history http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westminster_Bank and still (kind of) exists today as NatWest - ironically their big advertising push these days is that they provide "helpful banking". Mr Lea would probably disagree.
Carole
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I cant imagine a bank not wanting your money :)
Well I do remember that when I first started working as a contractor, I had to open a new business account to pay my first paycheque into (since the cheque was in the name of my new limited company.) And to my amazement the bank that held my personal account refused to allow me to open a business account to pay the cheque into (because I had an existing consolidation loan with them and they refused to allow me to open a new account until that was cleared.) So in the end I had to open a business account with a totally different bank just to be able to pay the cheque in, which annoyed me no end.
Although it's not really comparable with what Nat's describing, since if I'd already had a business account then no doubt they would've accepted the money. I guess banking in those days was a more personal affair, and therefore more subject to the whims of the people concerned, so maybe this kind of thing was par for the course.
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Morning all :)
Regarding the banking...another two possibilities...it could be that Lea owed money to the bank, and this was a way to get him to come in (unlikely, bit illogical) or more likely, the money, if it was a cheque, could have been a "bouncing" cheque, drawn on someone that the Bank knew was a bad risk. This of course would only make sense if what he paid in was a cheque and not cash - by NB using the term money you would think cash, in which case seems obsurd that the bank wouldn't have taken it!
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I do hope we find out in subsequent entries what's going on, although I doubt Mr Lea would keep a clerk apprised of his financial doings. How tantalising!
I noticed the 'looketh' bit. Was that still natural parlance in 1846, or was he just being a bit affected? Or maybe nostalgic since part of the old world order was being torn down.
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Some interesting detail about Westminster Bridge and its "semi-octangular" features. Hasn't Nat mentioned semi-octangular before? He seems to like words doesn't he.
Some detail about the bridge:
http://thames.me.uk/s00130.htm
Paul
P.S. Forgive me for lurking for such a long time.
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Apparently the ballustrades had been removed from the bridge because the piers were sinking. RJB Walker's "Old Westminster Bridge - The Bridge of Fools" quotes Punch of about the time NB was writing -
"Hard is the fate of an infirm old pile
While daily sinking on a cold damp bed;
If they don't move me in a little while,
I certainly shall tumble down instead."
Building of the current bridge did not begin until 1854; with completion in 1862.
However, the old bridge was still standing when the new one was opened
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The Bank seemed to feel that there wasnt enough funding in the account to make it worthwhile.... first signs of the bankrupcy......
The bank it was moved to seems to have been absorbed by another near 1900 and is now indirectly part of RBS group.
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The Bank seemed to feel that there wasnt enough funding in the account to make it worthwhile.... first signs of the bankrupcy......
The bank it was moved to seems to have been absorbed by another near 1900 and is now indirectly part of RBS group.
So, ironically today both the banks George Lea used are part of the Royal Bank of Scotland group. This is what I like about Nat's diary it sends me off to look at all kinds of subjects I wouldn't have bothered with before - in this case banking's very tangled history.
Carole
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Thanks for the explanations about the reasons the bank may have refused the Lea deposit. It is getting very interesting. What I love is the way this is unfolding daily and we've found the hard facts (censuses etc) to support the bankruptcy etc. Great stuff.
Yes Aniseed, I don't recall Nathaniel using many 'old fashioned' words - for some reason this just jumped out at me ... :)
Paul Caswell! Good to have you join us - no need to apoligise for being a lurker. ;D
;D
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Something for everyone in this Sunday's posting.
Nat takes his usual walk, visits a church, takes a renewed interest in mrs Skirrriker, and manages to remove Anne's underware.
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Something for everyone in this Sunday's posting.
Nat takes his usual walk, visits a church, takes a renewed interest in mrs Skirrriker, and manages to remove Anne's underware.
;D
Yes, that just about sums it up Steve! ;D I think this must be the September entry that Steven was alluding to. ;)
Ann certainly is a woman of virtue and not of loose morals as some of us thought earlier in the diary. ;D Still, an unusual relationship. I would love to know more.
I'm glad that Nathaniel is still interested in Mrs Skirricker - I wonder where he "went round to" to try to see her?
I also wonder if we may be able to fill in the blanks .".." - the latin inscription of Samuel Johnson. It should still be there in St Paul's Cathedral.
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From Wiki:
(Samuel Johnson) was buried on 20 December 1784 at Westminster Abbey with an inscription that reads:
Samuel Johnson, LL.D.
Obiit XIII die Decembris,
Anno Domini
M.DCC.LXXXIV.
Ætatis suœ LXXV.
And Wren's:
The inscription ends:
“ LECTOR, SI MONUMENTUM REQUIRIS, CIRCUMSPICE. ”
which translates from Latin as:
“ Reader, if you seek his memorial – look around you.
I will try to find out what the rest of his memorial reads. Similar with Samuel Johnsons - I wonder if there is more to it? Can anyone translate his latin memorial? (It just looks like dates to me ... :-\)
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Nat - Please try harder to track down Mrs Skirriker - all I want you to do is find out what her real name is because Skirricker isn't a proper surname. Ask for her autograph and casually ask "so were you a Bunyan before you married?" to get her to tell you her maiden name. Don't just hang around in the hope that you may see the old lady. FIND OUT WHO SHE ACTUALLY IS!
Carole
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Dear all,
Yes, that was indeed the entry I was alluding to!
I got an interesting photo from a collection that belonged to my Nan this week. I shall post the photo and the writing on the back shortly.
Peace and joy,
Steven.
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Ok, here is the pic
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getting there!
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and the back - capitals are my Nan's writing (Leo's daughter). Leo is the son of Henry, NB's youngest son. My question is, who do you think the others are?
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Steven, if they are Leo's cousins (Henry Leopold Bryceson 1893-1957), they would need to be children of his father's siblings, OR his mother's siblings.
Got 'em :)
Edie, is Edith Sarah Stangroom, daughter of Sarah Maria BRYCESON & Walter STANGROOM
Florrie, is sister to Edith, Florence Ethel Stangroom
Stan, is Edith's husband, Stanley Ernest Atwell (not a relation to Lucy Mabel Atwell by any chance??)
and Edie's mum - Sarah Maria Brycson!! NB's daughter!
Haven't figured out who the boy is though :)
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The boy is probably young Stanley E Atwell - born 1917, mother's maiden name Stangroom.
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I thought that too Shaun, BUT, it says taken shortly before the War so if it was the 2nd WW, Stanley would be a lot older than what he appears in the photo?
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Hi everyone
I have been trying to catch up after an extended vacation .... Hope you are all well.
deb :)
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Hmmm - the card says that the photo was taken "before the war"... not "shortly before"...
If that is young Stanley he looks no more than 10 or 11 which would place it in 1927/8.
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Hi Deb :)
Shaun, you are quite right, my mind added shortly! So, young Stanley is a possibility I suppose, and supporting that, he does appear to be an only child?
Added: So the writer of the blue writing would have been perhaps Edie?
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Hello all
Looking at Steven's family tree there is a David Goater born to Minnie Isobel Bryceson in November 1933 - but he looks older than 6 ?
Also to me the clothes look a bit later than the 20's ? but I'm no expert
Nesta
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How exciting to see a photo of Nat's daughter! Wow! Thanks for posting it, Steven, and thanks for making sense of who the rellies were, Daisy Loo, (I still get a bit lost with them all), and I think we should thank Steven's nan for bothering to write the names on the back. I inherited a whole load of gorgeous photos from my great aunt, but nothing on the back, and I have to make best guesses at who they all were.
I loved today's entry. I missed the whole Mrs Skirricker bit first time round, so it's nice to see he hasn't forgotten about her, and the italicised part had me in stitches! Brilliant stuff!
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This is the tree of NB's descendants as far as I have worked them out (mostly by census & FreeBMD). Always open to correction of course.
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That's very neat Mongibello :) Much better to look at it like that :)
It's a little ironic, I think, that the name Bryceson dies out, after not being quite the right name in the beginning.
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That's brilliant Mongibello ! so easy to look at what format have you used or did you hand write it; I still do that because you can see it straight away - do the same in my work .....anything I need to think about gets handwritten !
Mrs S - who on earth is she ? or is our Nat totally wrong about her ancestors .....
Nesta
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"A church has just been completed in Old Street Road."
Why would he believe Mrs Skirricker would be at the new church? Apart from the cynical one that she wanted to avoid him. :)
Does she or her family have church-building inclinations? She certainly seems to visit several different ones.
Paul
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It was suggested a while back that Nat perhaps didnt get on well with his stepdad, Matthew ward. I think he likely did as :
1. He takes walks with him
2. visited a royal palace as a day trip as a pair
3. Names one of his daughters middle names as Ward. You wouldnt do that to honor someone you didnt like. He gives the same accolade to granny shephard.
(she isnt mentioned recently...)
steve
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I'm the same Nesta - I find it really difficult to follow any tree unless I see it as a diagram. So that is really helpful Mongibello.
I also wonder about Mrs S. Earlier in the diary didn't someone tell Nathaniel that Mrs S was John Bunyan's descendant? Maybe they were wrong? :-\
I agree with you Steve. Nathaniel seems to get along quite well with Matthew Ward. He has even mentioned sympathy for him when he has had to look after Mary.
Good point about the surname Daisy. :)
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As we're now on Page 20 I have to lock this. Part 7 starts here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=482661.new
I hope everyone will join us. :)