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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: eilidh on Thursday 12 August 10 05:49 BST (UK)
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Hello
Trying to find out where the following family were residing in Dublin 1860's.
Robert Harvey IRVINE solictor, he married Kate Sophia Samuels in 1855 , Clonturk, Dublin.
His brother Nathanial IRVINE may be listed separately, no profession, just a gentleman :)
Would appreciate any assistanace.
Many thanks
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These children were born to Robert Irvine and (Kate) Sophia during the 1860s
If correct there are two addresses
Robert Harvey was born on August 11th 1862 and baptised in Glasnevin CoI on September 14th 1862 at that time they lived at Bengal Terrace
Elizabeth Christina was born on April 18th 1866 and baptised in Glasnevin CoI on May 27th 1866 at that time they lived at Bilton House
George Nathaniel was born on July 3rd 1868 and baptised in Glasnevin CoI on August 23rd 1868 at the same address
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Robert Harvey IRVINE solictor, he married Kate Sophia Samuels in 1855 , Clonturk, Dublin.
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I thought maybe that should be Clontarf ... but I've just seen that there's a townland and Civil parish named Clonturk near to Coolock
will check Thom's '63 for you this evening.
Shane
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In Slaters `1870
I have a Robert H Irvine, living in Bilton House, Finglas Road.
Also Robert H Irvine, Solicitor, 29 Upper Ormond Quay.
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In 1860s there was a Henry Irvine Solicitor at 7 Gardiner Place and he shared the building with Irvine & Reid Messrs Solicitors (no first names given but a possible)
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Evening myluck, ambyrne1 and shanew147,
Apologies for my late response, just got home, very cold and windy in Brisbane tonight :-\
Myluck I believe the children's parents are Robert Harvey IRVINE and Kate i.e. forenames, census 1901 Kate widow is living with son Robert Harvey and wife -Residents of a house 1 in Xavier Avenue (North Dock, Dublin)
ambyrne1 I wonder if the two different address reflect home and business?
Briefly Robert Harvey IRVINE and Nathaniel IRVINE were half brothers, both inherited property from their father William IRVINE, Kenmare, Kerry. I have documentation that states Nathaniel lost his wealth and went to stay with his brother Robert in Dublin in the 1860's. Nathaniel's wife Anne (dont think they married) and his three children went to USA. Nathaniel died Dublin 1876 aged 70 years.
:)
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The 1870 details that ambyrne1 mentioned sound like office and residential addresses to me.
Shane
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Here are links to the full records for the baptisms that myluck! mentioned :
Baptism of Robert Harvey Irvine 14 Sept 1862 (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/458ac80358400)
Elizabeth Christina Irvine 27 May 1866 (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/12fde10358422)
George Nathaniel Irvine 23 Aug 1868 (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/3586e60358439)
from www.irishgenealogy.ie
Shane
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Evening Shane,
As you can see I am trying to establlsh where Robert was living when Nathaniel IRVINE died in 1876 so I can purchase Nathaniels death certificate. Nathaniels daughter Lucy supposedly stayed with him at his brother's home when she died in in 1866 aged 17years. I am trying to establish who her mother was. Nathaniels (wife) went to America in 1866 and I do not believe that she would have left Lucy behind.
Nathaniel was always listed as a gentleman, and so far I have found 8 - 9 children all illegitimate , three mothers. Just trying to figure out who belonged to who :)
once again many thanks everyone
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This looks like a possible match in the Index for his death :
Name: Nathaniel Irvine
Registration District: Dublin North
Event Type: Death
Year: 1876
Age : 70 (est birth year: 1806)
volume : 12 / page : 337
the registration district fits with Glasnevin, Coolock etc
from the Irish Civil BMD Index (http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=collectionDetails&c=fs%3A1408347)
see also : Introduction to Irish Records (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html) Includes notes on ordering certs, searching the index and the details that certs include
Shane
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thank you Shane
Sorry for being a pest, trying to get my head around this. OK Nathanial died 1876 in Dublin, is it possible to find out who the mother of his illegitimate daughter Lucy was?
I cannot find Lucy's birth anywhere, all I know is she was the daugher of Nathanial, mother (to be confirmed).
This man certainly liked to keep his feet warm on a winter's night ;)
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when and where was Lucy born ?
Shane
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Hi Shane
Thats the big problem! All I know is that her brother Fr Ingram Nathanial IRVINE states that " Nathaniel (my father) died and was buried in Dublin Ireland. Lucy ( my sister) also died and was buried in Dubllin. My mother, brother Andrew, sister Agnes and myself came to the United States of America in May AD 1866.
I found Lucy's death in 1866 aged 17 years, but cannot find her birth :-\
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Full civil registration only started in 1864 - so too late to include her birth, so you will need to research parish records - to do this you need to first need to establish the family religion and also parish where she was born.
(see the introduction topic mentioned earlier)
Shane
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Thank you Shane
The father was COI two mothers Roman(that I can confirm), all children born Kenmare Kerry COI ( except for Lucy and Agnes who I cannot find their birth details). Agnes went to USA (with her mother), her mothers maiden name is listed on her marriage certificate.
Youngest child Fr Ingram Nathaniel Irvine was of the belief that his brother Andrew was his full brother, parish registers show he was in fact his half brother.
I am of the belief that Agnes, Lucy and Ingram had the same mother.
This getting so confusing....many thanks for your input
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Eilidh
Following in the foot prints of others, Shaws Pictorial Directory for Dublin 1850 shows that a Henry Irvine (solr.)
was resident at No.7 Gardiner's Place and he had an office at No.30. The attorneys index puts him at Nos.6 & 30 while the main index shows Nos. 7 & 30.
The Dublin newspaper , The Irish Times has 2 advert. where he is mentioned, on 1st April 1862 and 28th November 1864 on Page 1. An advert. on 17th May1862 in which the leasehold of the property was offered for sale shows a Henry Irvine as the occupant.
In the same newspaper on the 8th August 1866 in an advert. Robert Henry Irvine (solr.) is mentioned, at No.29 Upper Ormond Quay. There in the edition for 20th January 1869 on Page 1 in an advert. is mentioned Cinnamond & Irvine.
Regards Quaxer
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Thom's 1863
Robert Harvey Irvine, solicitor 93 Gardiner St. Lwr & Kenmare
res. Alpine Lodge, Glasnevin
The Gardiner Street address is listed as offices for about 5 solicitors.
Thom's 1868
Robert Harvey Irvine, solicitor 29 Ormonde quay upr & Kenmare
res. Bilton House, Finglas
Building shared with a Augustus Ruttle esq and various business & professions - Civil Eng., public account, other solicitors & the assigner of the court of bankruptcy
Thom's 1872
Robert H. Irvine, solicitor, 28 Ormonde Quay Upr & Kenmare
The address is shared with a John Dwyer bacon and butter merchant.
Thom's 1879
Robert H. Irvine, solicitor, 19 Ormonde quay lwr
Robert W. Irvine, solicitor, 19 St. Bridgets Ave.
I dont see any sign of Nataniel in the index for any of these ... if was not the principle householder he probably not be listed. He could be listed in the street index - but without a possible address he would be difficult to find.
Shane
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Morning Shane and Quaxer
I really appreciate all this information you have looked up for me. Thanks to everyone, I now have an area where brother Robert Harvey was living and working. I am also able to confirm Fr Ingram Irvine notes that his uncle Robert Harvey was " a solicitor of high repute ".
The family had moved to Dublin from Kenmare Kerry, after 1852 Griffith Valuation. I believe Nathaniel followed his brother and was either living with him or closeby.
I am going to get the death certificate of both Nathaniel ( in the hope it lists a spouse - I dont think he ever married any of them) and Lucy's (in the hope it lists her mother).
Once again a very big thankyou :)
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Irish death certificates do not list spouse (unless they were the informant).
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Evening Aghadowey,
Definitely his last lady would not have been the informant as she went to USA with the three children in 1866c. However it will be interesting to see if he is listed as a widower by the informant, and who the informant was.
With the child Lucy, do Irish death certificates list the mother, I know the father was Nathanial, so there is no point in me ordering if it does not.
bye
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With the child Lucy, do Irish death certificates list the mother, I know the father was Nathanial, so there is no point in me ordering if it does not.
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Death certs often include a parent as the informant - but there's no guarantee. (it could be a doctor..)
I've also a few that state details like ''xxx daughter of (father's name) Civil Servant"
Shane
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I've also seen ones the state 'child of a labourer.'
See here for details listed on death certificates-
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,433043.0.html
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Glasnevin Cemetery's website may provide more information for you if you haven't checked it
link to Nathaniel's burial
http://www.glasnevintrust.ie/index.cfm?fuseaction=xml.genealogyexresults&required=f1%2Cf2&fnameo=B&fname=n&lnameo=B&lname=irvine&address1=&yddeatho=B&yddeath=1866&aa=Search
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Thank you very much myluck, adhadowey and shane,
Found Nathaniel's records :) , system seems to be a bit erratic at the moment so I will wait till after the weekend to order on line.
Fingers and toes crossed it may come up with some additional info :-\
bye
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Do you have any information about Robert Harvey Irvine's parents (Nathaniel Irvine and Mary Gallivan)? His sister, Elizabeth Irvine, was my great great great grandmother and I have just found a bible given to her son (Nathaniel Irvine Hawkes) by Robert Harvey Irvine in 1861. I have found details of Elizabeth's baptism in October 1827 giving the names of her parents but can't get further back than that. Elizabeth and her husband Thomas Palmer Hawkes ended up in England. I am new to Rootschat - this is my first reply!
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Hi Fantley7
Yes I have quite a bit of info on Nathaniel Irivine and Mary Gallivan's descendants.
I see you have only one posting, I cannot send you a personal message with my email address until you have three postings on Rootschat. Can you please post a couple more replies and then we can make contact.
bye
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Hi Fantley7
Not sure if you have this death notice published in the Bristol Mercury Nov 5 1870 for Thomas Palmer Hawkes who died on October 30th in Bristol aged 49 years. Have attached just in case you dont :)
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Thanks, that is great. I have only just heard about Thomas Palmer Hawkes so did not have the death notice.
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Hopefully this will count as my third reply! I have quite a lot of information about Elizabeth Irvine's descendants, if you are interested. :)
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Here is a picture of Nathaniel Irvine Hawkes. He died aged 91 in December 1935!
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Hi fantley7
5.45 am Tuesday morning in Australia, hopefully today will not be as hot and humid ???
Thank you so much for the photo, I have a few I can send to you. Will now send you a personal message on Rootschat with my email address.
bye for now
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Hello Fantley 7,
Just a note to introduce myself. I am a great great grandaughter of Elizabeth's sister Charlotte.
I am keen to find out more about Charlotte's sisters and brother and share the little information that I have regarding Charlotte if it is of any interest to you.
Hoping to hear from you
Selbourne
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Hi Shane,
If you have easy access to Thom's 1863 Directory, could you lookup all with surname Cochran or Cochrane in Dublin City and Skerries, County Dublin? Thanks so much!
Cliff :)
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Robert Harvey IRVINE solictor, he married Kate Sophia Samuels in 1855 , Clonturk, Dublin.
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I thought maybe that should be Clontarf ... but I've just seen that there's a townland and Civil parish named Clonturk near to Coolock
will check Thom's '63 for you this evening.
Shane
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Hi Shane,
If you have easy access to Thom's 1863 Directory, could you lookup all with surname Cochran or Cochrane in Dublin City and Skerries, County Dublin? Thanks so much!
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I'd need a bit more detail to carry out a useful search for you - e.g. first names, trade/occupations, street name ?
Not every person or address is listed in directories - e.g. occupants of cottages, tenements etc are not shown, neither are occupation like labourers etc
Have you located any civil marriage or birth records (i.e. after 1864) for your ancestors ?
These should give you more detail..
Shane
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Sorry about that.. Looking for John Cochran, Robert Cochran, and Samuel A Cochrane. All were sewed muslin manufacturers/merchants in skerries and Dublin. Thanks for your help.. Greatly appreciate it!
Hi Shane,
If you have easy access to Thom's 1863 Directory, could you lookup all with surname Cochran or Cochrane in Dublin City and Skerries, County Dublin? Thanks so much!
....
I'd need a bit more detail to carry out a useful search for you - e.g. first names, trade/occupations, street name ?
Not every person or address is listed in directories - e.g. occupants of cottages, tenements etc are not shown, neither are occupation like labourers etc
Have you located any civil marriage or birth records (i.e. after 1864) for your ancestors ?
These should give you more detail..
Shane
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.. Looking for John Cochran, Robert Cochran, and Samuel A Cochrane. All were sewed muslin manufacturers/merchants in skerries and Dublin.
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Some slightly earlier entries from 1852 to start things off ....
Trades Index :
John Cochrane, worked muslin manufacturer, 21 D'Olier St
Robert Cochrane, tambour manufacturer, Skerries
Skerries Listing :
Cochrane & Inglis, tambour manufacturer
Robert Cochrane, tambour manufacturer
Not sure what exactly a Tambour Manufacturer made back then, but the references to Tambour that I see on searches relate to the type of folding/segmented doors you sometimes see in office cabinets.
will search further this evening...
Shane
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I can help you out here - as tambour muslin brings Jane Austin to mind!!
At the height of its popularity in Europe between 1780 to 1850, fine flowing muslin gowns, net wedding veils and scarves were embroidered, as the Napoleonic Wars made it difficult to obtain fashionable French lace.
It was worked with a hook, an ‘ari’ in India, and in the West, a ‘tambour hook’, like a sewing machine needle turned into a crochet hook which was placed inside a wooden holder.
A fine fabric – cambric, muslin or netting – was placed drum tight in a free standing embroidery hoop. The right hand held the tambour needle whilst the left hand, below the work, held the thread. The needle worked through the fabric and created a continuous line of chain stitches.
Is believed to be of eastern origin, worked in China, Persia, Turkey and India as early as the 1300s. The technique reached Europe about the mid 1700s and was referred to as ‘tambouring’ from the French ‘tambour’ for drum, a forerunner of the modern tambourine. Named after the drum shaped frame on which it was worked.
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thank you myluck!... learn something new everyday here!
The entries for Cochrane and Inglis and Robert also appear in Skerries in 1848 - see : http://roots.swilson.info/towns1848/img/sker1.html
and Thom's 1862 shows an entry for John :
21 D'Olier Street, John Cochrane & Sons,
sewed muslin manufacturers, and embroidery printers
Shane
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absolutely!!
Mrs. Grant used a tambour frame in "Mansfield Park" by Jane Austin and it stuck in my head!!
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not much call for tambour frames in my choice of reading - Frederick Forsyth and the like. Just as well we have some educated people on here ;)!
Shane
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Thom's 1863 :
Robert Cochrane, sewed muslin manufacturer, Skerries
Samuel A. Cochrane, manfacturer, 21 D'Olier st.
res. Ravindon, Leinster Rd. West, Rathmines
S.A. Cochrane esq., 71 Harold's Cross
the Skerries listing has Robert on Strand Street as 'sewed muslin manufacturer, and boat owner'
The city street listing shows the Cochrane address at 21 D'Olier Street as 'sewed muslin manufacturer and embroidery printers'
Shane
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going back in time.... 1840 (Pettigrew & Oulton) :
John Cochrane, worked muslin warehouse
22 Marlborough Street
res. Merrion House
No sign of any Cochranes or muslin trades on D'Olier St, and there's no separate listing for Skerries.
the 1834 directory has just one Cochrane in the Index - a Robert Cochran 'Troon Coal office', at 11 City Quay.
Shane
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Thanks for the information! I have good information on the cochrans before 1860, but nothing between that date and 1864, when the emigrated to America. In really curious about a possible John Cochran at Skerries in 1860-1864. Were there any Cochran or Cochranes at Skerries in Thoms 1862 directory? Thanks again for the help... I really appreciate it!
going back in time.... 1840 (Pettigrew & Oulton) :
John Cochrane, worked muslin warehouse
22 Marlborough Street
res. Merrion House
No sign of any Cochranes or muslin trades on D'Olier St, and there's no separate listing for Skerries.
the 1834 directory has just one Cochrane in the Index - a Robert Cochran 'Troon Coal office', at 11 City Quay.
Shane
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Thanks for the information! I have good information on the cochrans before 1860, but nothing between that date and 1864, when the emigrated to America. In really curious about a possible John Cochran at Skerries in 1860-1864. Were there any Cochran or Cochranes at Skerries in Thoms 1862 directory? Thanks again for the help... I really appreciate it!
the two directories I have closest to this date are 1863 and 1856 (see below), but remember that the details are often a little behind - as they were compiled during the year (sometime more) before the date.
The 1862 listing comes form the version online on the LibraryIreland website (see the Dublin Resources sub-forum), but this only includes city listings -so doesn't include county areas like Skerries
1856 :
Robt. Cochrane, sewed muslin manuf., Skerries (no street mentioned)
John Cochrane & Sons, sewed muslin manufacturers, 21 D'Olier St
and some later details :
1868 :
Samuel A. Cochrane, sewed muslin manufacturers and pattern designer, 21 D'Olier St
factory : 71 Harold's Cross
res. : 80 Leinster Rd., Rathmines
Robert Cochran, sewed muslin manufacturer
Great Strand Street, Skerries
There's also a mentioned of these Cochranes in the summary entry for the town : '..The embroidering of muslin is carried on here extensively; it was introduced by Messrs. Robert and Samuel Cochran in 1812...'
Robert is also listed in 1872..
Shane
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Robert and Kate Irvine also had a daughter Margaret Lilian Irvine
Name
Margaret Irvine
Father
Robert Harvey Irvine
MotherCatherine Irvine
Birth
19 Sep 1864
Baptism
6 Nov 1864 - Glasnevin, Dublin
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here they are
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/search.jsp?namefm=robert+harvey&namel=irvine&location=&yyfrom=&yyto=&submit=Search
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Great, thank you for sharing.
Margaret Lilian Irvine's second marriage was to my Great Great Grandfather William Owen in 1907.
I'm looking for a death certificate for Margaret, hoping you can help.
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for reference purposes
1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Clontarf_West__Part_of/Addison_Road/19618/
Will of William Owen 1909 13 St Helen's Tce,Fairview.
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014916/005014916_00263.pdf
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Looks like her mothers death
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FTJ3-C2V
Have you got this to see who informant was and later address
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How do I find out the informant? do I need to order a copy or can this be done online?
I have sighted this information before, thank you.
Margaret Lilian Owen was aged 61 when her Mother died in 1925, so I have searched a further 25 years to attempt to find out Margaret's death record but I have had no luck online.
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ordering certs
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=599538.0
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There is a marriage in 1922 in which there are five female names and only four male
LINK to Civil Record Reference Dublin South 1922 Q2 V2 P418 (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYNB-N3N)
This is a free site; another paid site gives the full list of names recorded on this page
A mismatch of names usually indicates that one of the women was previously married
and it shows both her current name and her maiden name
(but sometimes it is just two spellings of the same name)
In this case there is a Margaret OWEN and a Margaret IRVINE shown
By elimination through searches:
Percival Harold BENWELL m Beatrice DOUGLAS,
Shuckburgh U L CLEMEMTS m Rosamund C C BURROWES, and
Robert Samuel CODE m Blanche WARDLAW;
this leaves William DAWSON as the most plausible spouse should this record be relevant.
I would suggest that you order this record and check;
The 1925 death certificate for Margaret's mother could help confirm this also
Happy hunting
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Well spotted MyLuck
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Based on that this would look to be a possible death for Margaret Lillian in 1933, as Margaret Irving Dawson - the age is off but that wouldn't bother me too much.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FTK9-7N5
Also the 1907 marriage to William Edward Owens looks a bit strange. There are 2 grooms listed and 4 brides names. The second groom is Frederick Adams and he seems to have married Margaret Nolan.
The 3 remaining brides names are:
Margaret Lillian Irvine
Margaret Lillian Twohig (previous husband Cornelius Twohig)
and Margaret Lillian HARVEY - so possibly some sort of mistake or was she also previously married to HARVEY though not seeing an Irvine/Harvey marriage listed in Ireland. Perhaps the GRO would need to explain.
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Discount Margaret Irving Dawson
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Glasnevin/Lindsay_Terrace_Botanic_Road/16526/
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1939 Register of Electors
Margaret Dawsons 5
5 Kevin St lr
6 Harman St
27 Simmons Place
44 Connolly Gardens buried Glasnevin 1942
44 Leighlin Rd
William Dawsons 5
52 Howth Rd
10 Iona Pk
2 Elmwood Rd
208 Bangor Rd
10 Carrick Tce
seems most plausible ? out by four years
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FT23-QYS
edit
but could be this lady
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rathmines___Rathgar_West/Coulson_Avenue/60598/
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Margaret Lilian's brother was named Robert Harvey Irvine
I wonder is this where it came from?
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@Hasta
Harvey was her Father's middle name, so it seems like name confusion with her third marriage.
I'll be ordering the certificates next week, so I'm very interested to view further information.
You all really know your stuff, and I truly appreciate it.
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You're welcome and Happy New Year
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William Owen was m great grandfather.
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Gypsierose, how do I send you my e-mail address,