RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: johnxyz on Wednesday 11 August 10 09:24 BST (UK)
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It struck me that we are now about 10 years into the age of widespread Internet genealogy. Familysearch.org was initially launched in 1999, and the 1901 UK census relaunched in Autmn 2002. There has clearly been an explosion of available data in that time.
It prompts 2 questions:
What would you like to see in the next 10 years, and
What do you think we are likely to see?
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This has been discussed several times in the past. I don't think there will be anything to match the last decade, because not only did we get the 1911 census earlier than invisaged (due to the work of Guy Etchells, another RC member), but we also had the release of the London Parish Records from the LMA on Ancestry. Unfortunately, unless there's a change in the law, the next big thing to look forward to is the 1921 census, which unfortunately is more than a decade away :)
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I remember long before I got into this genealogy game when the 1901 census came on line & the system crashed regularly as it could not cope with the vast amounts of hits it got. Thought to myself, oh those sad people. Little did I realise just how immersed I would become in less than a year.
I think that over the next 10 years, more old newspapers will come on line, especially some of the long lost off our streets, more Parish Records will be available on line and my big wish that the GRO will find some way around the law and issue certs. on line.
More of the records held in county archives become available online, and the LMA releases more of its extensive collections online.
Well I could go on and on an on........
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I think that over the next 10 years, more old newspapers will come on line, especially some of the long lost off our streets, more Parish Records will be available on line and my big wish that the GRO will find some way around the law and issue certs. on line.
More of the records held in county archives become available online, and the LMA releases more of its extensive collections online.
Although I sincerely hope that you are right, I wouldn't like to take a bet on it :)
When you are in a library, you can whizz through microfilms to find what you want, but you can't do that on a computer online. To be able to access stuff online, it has to be digitised, indexed, transcribed, and stored, and all these things cost money. The records on the LMA pre-1813 are very difficult to photograph and transcribe, because of the condition of the originals. I'd love to see local newspapers online, but unfortunately these would also need to be digitised, transcribed, and cross-referenced, which again would be time-consuming and costly.
Your suggestion re the release of online certificates specifically for genealogists might become a reality - the government are looking for new ways to make money, so this could happen if it can be proved to be profitable. I'm not sure how much of the GRO's revenue comes from private family tree researchers.
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Unfortunately, it all comes down to money which as we know is rapidly reducing. Local authorities simply don't have the cash to spend on digitising a collection which might only be of use to a small band of researchers. And then there's the issue of charging for access, when the originals could be viewed for free.
However, in the next 10 years what I would like to see are more archive catalogues online. That way people will find it easier to search collections and then get in touch with the repository to find out more. More indexing projects with family and local history societies to increase access to archives which people may not have known or thought about.
That's what I would like to see, more of a return to what societies and archives did before the internet and commercial companies came along.
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*sigh!*
Within the next ten years, I'd really ... REALLY ... like to see The National Archives website turn into something I can actually find my way around! And maybe they'd organise things so that I can find information online - because I really don't think I could row from Oz to England to look it up in person :'(
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A question prompted by Nick29's original reply. The last decade has seen the release of 1841-1911 census. A quick addition of census headcounts suggests that is about 200 million records.
Does anyone have any idea / guess /estimate how many records are contained within parish records, and what proportion has been indexed?
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I am very fearful that the next ten years will see a mass closure of record offices to the public, or at the very least greatly reduced opening hours, with similar things happening to the National Archive and other repositories, all in the great chase to save money. The only services available will be those paid for. Hope I am wrong.
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I am very fearful that the next ten years will see a mass closure of record offices to the public, or at the very least greatly reduced opening hours, with similar things happening to the National Archive and other repositories, all in the great chase to save money. The only services available will be those paid for. Hope I am wrong.
Yes, but there is also an increasing reliance on records found on the internet which record office and archives perhaps can't provide. That's why I'd like to see a return to the production of locally produced indexes and extracts and an increase in the availability of archive catalogues which will aid people and guide them towards other records held in record offices and archives thus helping to justify their existance.
I really hope these places don't close, as it's only within the last 15 to 20 years that many of them have been able to persuade the powers that be that they need more staff in order to catalogue, open to the public and answer enquiries.
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I'd like to see the 1921 Census become available as soon as possible.
Nicki
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*sigh!*
... I'd really ... REALLY ... like to see The National Archives website turn into something I can actually find my way around! And maybe they'd organise things so that I can find information online ....
Amen to that, it completely baffles me that site!
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Since I've been doing family history (about 10 years) I've seen the 1901, 1911 censuses be released, more censuses on Ancestry, parish registers both transcriptions and digital images be made available.
I'm only too happy with what is around. My husband's cousin started doing their family tree from America, having to go to St. Catherine's House in London on rare trips over here and didn't have access to the 1891 census. Poor man died without knowing why he couldn't get further back with James Carter and I discovered later its because he was born Dennis McCarthy!
So just appreciate what you've got!
TNA catalogue does take a bit of getting used to, but practice helps!
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I would like to see the online records for England and Wales to rise to the standard of Scotland's online service.
(And the abolition of Ancestry)
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I would like to see the online records for England and Wales to rise to the standard of Scotland's online service.
(And the abolition of Ancestry)
Not sure I understand about the abolition of Ancestry? Why?? I live in Ireland, and cannot visit Records offices etc for my ancestors in the UK, so Ancestry has been a HUGE help for me.
I am happy so far with what is available, would like to see more parish records, or at least catelogues and/or indexes of parish records online.
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I think we will see more commercial partnerships with the national archive to digitize records (like ancestry and FindMyPast have done with the army service papers). Presumably this is a profitable enterprise for the companies and they will continue doing more. And the mopre they do they more money they make...so the more they will do. etc etc. I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of National Archive material available that way in 10 years time.
Also - possibly the local archvives will find partners to work with too although these would not be as profitable due to the local nature of the material so it may not be so financially attractive.
Also - the search functions of the major sites will probably be a lot more sophisticated. Even in the last couple of years they have become much more able to do do complex searches - just imagine how good they will be in another 10
Milly ;D
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I would like to see the online records for England and Wales to rise to the standard of Scotland's online service.
(And the abolition of Ancestry)
Not sure I understand about the abolition of Ancestry? Why?? I live in Ireland, and cannot visit Records offices etc for my ancestors in the UK, so Ancestry has been a HUGE help for me.
I am happy so far with what is available, would like to see more parish records, or at least catelogues and/or indexes of parish records online.
I don't understand the Ancestry comment either. I'm fortunate enough to be able to afford subs to Ancestry, FindMyPast and The Genealogist, and I have to say that the one which has helped me the most in the last year is Ancestry, because I've discovered far more from the release of the LMA archives than I have from the 1911 census. Also, the newly-released probate stuff on Ancestry looks promising too, although most of my ancestors were too poor to leave wills :)
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the new Probate stuff is excellent. Not that many of my forebears had twopence between them! ;D
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I think that over the next 10 years, more old newspapers will come on line, especially some of the long lost off our streets, more Parish Records will be available on line and my big wish that the GRO will find some way around the law and issue certs. on line.
More of the records held in county archives become available online, and the LMA releases more of its extensive collections online.
Although I sincerely hope that you are right, I wouldn't like to take a bet on it :)
When you are in a library, you can whizz through microfilms to find what you want, but you can't do that on a computer online. To be able to access stuff online, it has to be digitised, indexed, transcribed, and stored, and all these things cost money. The records on the LMA pre-1813 are very difficult to photograph and transcribe, because of the condition of the originals. I'd love to see local newspapers online, but unfortunately these would also need to be digitised, transcribed, and cross-referenced, which again would be time-consuming and costly.
I'm not sure which elements of Plummiegirl's predictions you are dubious about - but:
Many more newspapers will appear (Brightsolid have already signed up to digitise the BL collection), the BL is desparate for this to happen because it will make the closure of Colindale more acceptable and raise some much needed funds;
Many more parish records will appear online (the LDS are already putting up digitised PRs and many, many more will follow);
Record offices are less likely to do so much as they are facing massive funding cuts - but they might find a way to raise some funds through putting records online;
The GRO may well follow the GROS in making register info available online, but the future of Civil Registration records is up in the air at present, the last government wanted to make historical registers public (local registers transferring to county record offices or similar to enable public access), who knows what the present lot will do?
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I think that over the next 10 years, more old newspapers will come on line, especially some of the long lost off our streets, more Parish Records will be available on line and my big wish that the GRO will find some way around the law and issue certs. on line.
More of the records held in county archives become available online, and the LMA releases more of its extensive collections online.
Although I sincerely hope that you are right, I wouldn't like to take a bet on it :)
When you are in a library, you can whizz through microfilms to find what you want, but you can't do that on a computer online. To be able to access stuff online, it has to be digitised, indexed, transcribed, and stored, and all these things cost money. The records on the LMA pre-1813 are very difficult to photograph and transcribe, because of the condition of the originals. I'd love to see local newspapers online, but unfortunately these would also need to be digitised, transcribed, and cross-referenced, which again would be time-consuming and costly.
I'm not sure which elements of Plummiegirl's predictions you are dubious about - but:
Many more newspapers will appear (Brightsolid have already signed up to digitise the BL collection), the BL is desparate for this to happen because it will make the closure of Colindale more acceptable and raise some much needed funds;
Many more parish records will appear online (the LDS are already putting up digitised PRs and many, many more will follow);
Record offices are less likely to do so much as they are facing massive funding cuts - but they might find a way to raise some funds through putting records online;
The GRO may well follow the GROS in making register info available online, but the future of Civil Registration records is up in the air at present, the last government wanted to make historical registers public (local registers transferring to county record offices or similar to enable public access), who knows what the present lot will do?
My main doubts surround the fact that we are in the middle of a deep financial recession, and companies are (and will continue to be) reluctant to invest money, unless they can be sure of a good financial return, and although amateur genealogy is very popular, it is not a huge money-spinner. With the 1911 census, Brightsolid had a very good idea of the returns that they could get, before they embarked upon it, but the same cannot be said for all documents.
I'm not sure how you can assert that register offices and the GRO will 'make info available online' when much of it is not in a format which makes it readily adaptable to online access ?
As for the LDS Church, yes they are making progress in certain areas, but again much of this work is being done by volunteers, so don't expect much to happen very quickly.
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One aspect no-one has commented on is the nature of the internet itself. The profusion of data has in many cases made it hard to sort the nuggets from the dross. Search engine technology is improving, but it can seem increasingly difficult to find hard information tied to definitive sources. That's a general comment - not restricted to genealogy or family history.
In the more specific context, many "volunteers" are choosing to publish directly. There are many small- or medium-scale indexes or transcriptions of parish records. I see that trend continuing. But it brings with it the cataloguing problem raised elsewhere in this thread. So I can only thank and encourage those who maintain the "resources" sections, and particularly the on-line resources, for each county within this forum. I suspect your efforts are going to become more and more important.
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*sigh!*
... I'd really ... REALLY ... like to see The National Archives website turn into something I can actually find my way around! And maybe they'd organise things so that I can find information online ....
Amen to that, it completely baffles me that site!
I don't know what they've done to it. I used to be able to find my way around the site (I did a course on just that) now it's all changed again and I can't find anything.
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I want more historical electoral registers to come online.
The pilot site has release many new parish records.
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I would like to see the online records for England and Wales to rise to the standard of Scotland's online service.
(And the abolition of Ancestry)
What's that about? Ancestry is an amazing service and would recommend to any one interested in geneology. Why did you say that? ???
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With you on the National Archives Website, it is completely opaque to me, and has been described by a regular as "Not user friendly" However, I think we should grin and bear it, if we complain it will get closed "to save money"
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I disagree with the abolition of Ancestry.
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Are the problems with The National Archive the website as a whole or the Catalogue?
I'm lucky in that I have from Kew a 25 page printed document on Catalogue search tips, dated Sep 2008. Much of its content is in the on-line search tips, but I do find the printed document easier to use.
The biggest hurdle I found when I started using the catalogue is that the search "word or phrase" box does not work like a standard search engine. The notes at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help/catalogue/basicsearch.htm#searchtips explain some of this, but they are heavy going. The bullets about word order are particularly significant
The other slight oddity is the need to click through to the Catalogue page for a link to the research guides.
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Oh Deb D - how I agree with you, the National Archives website leaves me cold, I know there is information there that would be useful to me, but finding it is just so complicated (or is it just me being a bit older and not understanding!!!)
I have even gone so far as to phone them & ask if there was anywhere I could go for simple & easy to understand instructions on how to use their site but they were unable to help me.
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I love it that I can go to a record office, produce my readers card, and have a day in the warm (!) looking things up and browsing through lovely old records. A day of pleasure ... and all FOR FREE !
Seriously, would it really be too much for someone to pay, say £2, or £5 for a days use of the records ? I'm the proverbial poor pensioner, but I'd pay it !
When I think of the number of people there are each day coming in and out of the records office, the amount of money they aren't taking is quite considerable ... and in the current 'climate' would be a good source of revenue.
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With more and more stuff coming online especially the pilot site then we are becoming more and more able to search in the comfort of our own homes.
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With more and more stuff coming online especially the pilot site then we are becoming more and more able to search in the comfort of our own homes.
True, but I do wonder if it sometimes makes people think that if it's not on the internet then it doesn't exist. With many archives and record offices unable to digitise collections, I think there is a wealth of information out there that people just aren't finding because it's not online.
I like the idea of record offices charging for use of the records, but there may be implications regarding charging for access to public records in the place they are held. I'm not sure though. Perhaps if rather than having a standard charge, they could have a suggested donation, like many museums?
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I love it that I can go to a record office, produce my readers card, and have a day in the warm (!) looking things up and browsing through lovely old records. A day of pleasure ... and all FOR FREE !
Hmmm.... hardly, when you have to buy a train ticket to get there ! :)
I kick myself that I spent the first 25 years of my life 20 minutes away from the centre of London by train, but wasn't interested in genealogy back then. Now, it would cost me £62.50 for a return ticket to London ::)
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A question prompted by Nick29's original reply. The last decade has seen the release of 1841-1911 census. A quick addition of census headcounts suggests that is about 200 million records.
Does anyone have any idea / guess /estimate how many records are contained within parish records, and what proportion has been indexed?
The 1841 census was released in 1912 along with the 1851 census, 70 and 60 years after they were taken.
I think what you are referring to was the on line access to the 1841-1911 census. ;)
In the next few years the 1921 census and all historic civil registers could be released and also made available without the need to purchase a certificate.
Historic civil registers are the Births, Marriages and Deaths from 1837 to around 1910 (i.e. those about 100 years old).
This however will take a concerted effort and will not happen if the genealogical community simply sit back and wait for it to happen.
We need to write to Cabinet Ministers and Members of Parliament and lobby for it to happen.
It may also help to comment and rate the suggestions on the HMG Your Freedom site at
http://tinyurl.com/2vju6b9 for access to the 1921 census
and
http://tinyurl.com/33lptya for access to historic registers.
Cheers
Guy
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I love it that I can go to a record office, produce my readers card, and have a day in the warm (!) looking things up and browsing through lovely old records. A day of pleasure ... and all FOR FREE !
Hmmm.... hardly, when you have to buy a train ticket to get there ! :)
I kick myself that I spent the first 25 years of my life 20 minutes away from the centre of London by train, but wasn't interested in genealogy back then. Now, it would cost me £62.50 for a return ticket to London ::)
But I was meaning my local record office, which is about 20 minutes by car away ... true, you have to own a car and be able to drive there ! But in principle, a small charge would be good I think. What does it cost to go to the cinema ? (£5 ? £8 ?) Or a concert ? (£20 ?) Or a stately home ... or a week by the sea ??
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I didnt know 1841 and 1851 was released in 1912. I thought about 1942 and 1952.
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I'd like one membership rate on the main on line websites. Its frustrating when you find something in the index to have it come up and tell you it will cost even more money to look at it. We have paid a membership to look at the records so they should be available to all
regards panda
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Why shoiuld you pay again Lydart, you have already paid, it's called council tax!
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I want some Pennsylvania electoral rolls online for the 1890s and early 1900s. I might find my 3xgreat grandfather listed. That is if he voted. I know his address in 1900 in PA.
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Sadly I think a lot of the archives and the services we use will be sold off, the current Government isn't just about saving money, they have a philosophy of letting the private sector run things. You might have the Ancestry National Archives or the FindMyPast General Register Office in a few years! Plus Libraries sponsored by Waterstones and Amazon...
I'd like to see more available online as it's not so easy for someone with a child to get into archives!
An interesting one for me would be a site which has maps through the ages, rather like Google Maps but with a feature which allows 'layering' so you could see how a neighbourhood developed through the ages. I'm sure this could easily be done?
And online estate records for those of us with lots of agricultural workers!
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Absolutely right Lal, It is just dogma driven,who will pocket the profits from the privatisations of services? Not us the tax payers, the profits will go to those who wrecked the economy, the greedy bankers and their pals! Non profitable services will just cease to exist, and what a mess the 2021 census will be, reliant on information held by credit agencies, HP companies and others of that ilk.
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There won't be a 2021 census - it will be axed to save money. The government already know far more about us than that, through tax and NI records, driving licences, tax credits, TV licencing, DVLA, NHS, etc.
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I'd like to see records of what schools my ancestors attended.
And of course the 1921 census ;D
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If you know where your ancestors were living, then the local record office for that area will most probably have school log books; ask to see them for the period of your ancestors childhood !
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Why shoiuld you pay again Lydart, you have already paid, it's called council tax!
1. My council tax only supports one record office - there are four more within an hour's drive that I use as well.
2. Without some additional funding even my local record office will be far less available as the seemingly inevitable cuts will probably result in them being open less.
I hope they continue to be free as this encourages more people to use them, but I am worried that they are an easy target when cuts are in the air. :-[
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If you know where your ancestors were living, then the local record office for that area will most probably have school log books; ask to see them for the period of your ancestors childhood !
Thanks will look into that, also i'm sure the LMA were going to do something like that as well
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If you know where your ancestors were living, then the local record office for that area will most probably have school log books; ask to see them for the period of your ancestors childhood !
This is why I want more catalogues and local indexes online, as it is cheaper than going down the digitisation route (which also poses it's own questions - why keep the original if there's a digital copy...? But that's a whole other topic!)
I know things like A2A, Scottish Archive Network, Archives Hub and the National Register of Archives are supposed to help by having lots of catalogues in one place, but it takes a lot of effort to keep them co-ordinated and updated. Also, people aren't particularly aware of them. But if there was a better link between local societies and their local archive(s), then this would better assist research I think.
Localise rather than centralise!
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One area that no-one seems to have mentioned is voluntary transcribing. As far as I'm concerned the high water mark on this, and the service that other volunteer transcription projects should be looking to emulate in coverage and accuracy, is FreeBMD, but it's not the only one. Volunteer transcribing is not incompatible with pay sites (or a market-driven ethos in general), either: there are several useful collections on Ancestry now that were transcribed by members, most notably from my perspective as a user and transcriber, the England and Wales Criminal Registers. IME the volunteer-transcribed collections on Ancestry are more accurately done than the mass commercial undertakings that were the 1841-71 and 1891-1911 censuses, just as FreeBMD is more accurate than the 20th century indexes on Ancestry.
I'd like to see more PRs online too, and a concerted effort to digitise records from overseas that are of interest to UK citizens and historians and which are in danger of being lost through neglect. Ireland would be a fruitful place to start on this, as there's lots of interest in Irish genealogy but very little information available online, especially for Catholic ancestors. Also, having seen Rupert Penry-Jones on WDYTYA last night, what about all those parish registers going back to East India Co. days that are mouldering away in India? The mice had providentially stopped just where RPJ's ancestors' marriage information was recorded -- one extra line of nibbling and he'd have been none the wiser!
I don't know what some people have against Ancestry (and to a lesser extent the other pay sites). While the State has a duty to protect our heritage and to allow us reasonable free access to records, there's nothing to say it must pay to deliver them to our home PCs. Transcribing, indexing, scanning, hosting and administering online collections the size of the UK censuses or BMD indexes is a huge undertaking that takes a lot of resources. Not only are there pressing arguments that these resources might be better spent on more essential services in these straitened times, but also we must remember that we are a minority, albeit a reasonably large one, in the total population. Not everyone feels the burning desire to know where their ggg grandfather lived every 10 years, and they'd struggle to accept that they should pay for our ease of access to such information when they need a new kidney or whatever. As I say -- there's a difference between providing access (which is what the CROs, Kew, the BL etc. do), which should be free, and providing value-added services such as indexing, transcription, delivery to one's home and so on, which I think it only reasonable we should pay for.
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I would not on principle transcribe for a pay site,to me this has connotations of exploitation and cheap (or even slave?) labour.I do believe that the digitisation of parish records in general would be a very useful exercise, and usually without the need for transcription. After all, those that the Mormons put onto film many years ago, and the rest could surely be rephotographed and posted on the net by parish.Once a substantial number were available then the need for look ups etc. by people living overseas would be largely obviated. How about someone going for this one, and without the profit motive?
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See no point in a 75 year closure, as up to 2002 they are all in the public domain anyway, and afterwards only those who want to be shown are shown. You would still need to know the address, unless you had something else in mind?
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I would not on principle transcribe for a pay site,to me this has connotations of exploitation and cheap (or even slave?) labour.
No-one's forcing people to do this, so the idea of 'slave labour' is a bit much, IMO. But if it's a choice between a set of archives being available or not, my preference is that they be available. If I have to pay for them, it's then up to me to prioritise my budgeting and decide what I want. I have no qualms at paying my $300 or whatever it is to Ancestry, as the cost per item I download or extract information must be in the low single digits of cents. On the other hand, I'm very selective about which English BMD certificates I order at £9.25 a pop.
Of course, I'd rather there were hundreds of organisations like FreeBMD transcribing all sorts of material that is hard to access otherwise and I'd fully support any organisation doing this on a not-for-profit basis. But there's a more or less infinite supply of genealogically relevant material out there, and it's clear that volunteer groups cannot cover it all, so it's better that sites like Ancestry fill the gap. After all, there's nothing stopping voluntary groups repeating (and improving upon) work already done by Ancestry et al.
I also wonder when people complain about pay per view or subscription sites whether they're being entirely logical. I live about 90 minutes by train from London (on days when miscreants aren't vandalising the railway, anyway) and it would cost me a minimum of £40, and more realistically £60, plus Tube fare and extortionately priced lunch, to visit a London archive. I'd only have to do that six or seven times in a year to have exceeded the amount I pay to Ancestry and FindMyPast combined for access to the same material.
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Just to repeat, Someone using a person's voluntary and unpaid input for profit is at the very least exploitative. It would be useful though if the parish documents which have been microfilmed by the LDS could be put on the net, perhaps by the LDS since they are the people who have the images readily available. Effectively then a source document would be available to researchers, thus making over priced journeys and exorbitant meals a thing of the past.
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Just to repeat, Someone using a person's voluntary and unpaid input for profit is at the very least exploitative. It would be useful though if the parish documents which have been microfilmed by the LDS could be put on the net, perhaps by the LDS since they are the people who have the images readily available. Effectively then a source document would be available to researchers, thus making over priced journeys and exorbitant meals a thing of the past.
Just let me get this clear, it is "exploitative" to use "a person's voluntary and unpaid input for profit" when they knew that is what their transcriptions were going to be used for, but it is acceptable to use more tithes of the LDS to pay for the records they have already paid for to be made available on the net.
Seems to me there is some confused thinking here. ;)
If records are going to be made available on the internet someone has to pay the costs involved.
I am of the opinion that the end user should pay, after all it is the end user who will benefit from the access to the records.
If the company who provides the equipment and the web space makes a profit that is fair enough, they are after all taking the risk and investing the money.
It is only the same as a workman taking a wage.
Cheers
Guy
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I agree Guy. I'm not quite sure why we should expect the LDS to pay to put the microfilm on the net at their own expense. I am glad they have done as much as they already have done. It would be great if they did do it but I would think some kind of commercial partnership with one of the big companies would be a much better use of their resources.
I don't object to paying for subs when companies have invested time digitising etc. (although obviously I would rather it was cheaper). It must be a huge outlay before they actually recoup anything from subscribers
Milly
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I would not on principle transcribe for a pay site,to me this has connotations of exploitation and cheap (or even slave?) labour.
I've done some transcribing for Ancestry. I got 20% off my subs, which I consider to be a fair reward. For me, genealogy is about giving and taking.
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But I do object to the cost of BMD certificates etc (ie official Government documents). I think it is far too high. And I don't just mean for genealogists.
I have a bee in my bonnet about Death certificates at the moment (modern current ones not ancestor ones). When someone dies you need to have quite a few copies done and they are all charged at the same rate. Surely there should be a one-off cost for the first one and then a nominal sum for the copies done at the time. And then stupid companies demand to have them sent to them when there is no need... We have been trying to sort out my late father's internet account and they won't talk to us without a copy of the certificate...which would cost a fortune to buy and send recorded dlivery and then they would probably just lose it.... grrrrrr
Sorry - getting a bit off -topic with that one.
Milly ;D
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Milly -- Quite agree, though I'm surprised that there isn't the same system for death certificates as marriages. When I got married, we had the option of getting extra certificates from the RO within a certain time after the wedding for half price (then £3.50 I think), so we got two extra ones on top of the one at the actual ceremony. I have never had to register/deal with a death, thankfully.
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I have a bee in my bonnet about Death certificates at the moment (modern current ones not ancestor ones). When someone dies you need to have quite a few copies done and they are all charged at the same rate. Surely there should be a one-off cost for the first one and then a nominal sum for the copies done at the time. And then stupid companies demand to have them sent to them when there is no need... We have been trying to sort out my late father's internet account and they won't talk to us without a copy of the certificate...which would cost a fortune to buy and send recorded dlivery and then they would probably just lose it.... grrrrrr
Sorry - getting a bit off -topic with that one.
Milly ;D
Hi Milly,
replying to the copy bit.
I think they really do mean a copy - unless they say you must send the original certified copy ( which they then will also state they will return the originals back to you).
Scan the original certified copy. Print out how many you need and send them like that - If this internet company need legal authentication - take your scanned copies to a JP with the original certified copy - the Jp will sign your copies to say that he/she has seen the original certified copy and this is a true image -all legal and total above aboard.
I've sent enough BMD copies to governmet departments( and not companies who do not have any authority - who seem to try it on). I send scanned print outs of the originals )then have a JP signing the copies and stating it is a true copy -
I really hope that helps.
Kind regards :)
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I am all for fair payment for a fair day's (or hour's etc.) work. The LDS people are volunteers who have transcribed or are performing work in connection with a religious conviction. No confusion in my mind, about this, a simple matter of ethics as I see it.
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Sorry, I'm having trouble seeing your point. A few posts ago you were talking about pay sites, not the LDS Church.
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See reply No 49 above Nick.The LDS people performed a very useful service with the groundwork for the IGI, now, why not them, or if legally possible the present holders of the films put them on the net for searching, preferably free at time of use.
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The problem is that the equipment and resources required for the LDS or anyone else to put material online isn't free of charge to them. If they, FreeBMD or whoever choose to undertake voluntary projects, great -- but the voluntary nature, and their reliance on donations, will inevitably slow the process down.
As I said, I draw a distinction between the task of preserving the original records and allowing the public reasonable access to them in a library or archive, and the task of scanning, hosting, transcribing, indexing and writing programs to search data. The first should be provided free by the state; the second is IMO something that anyone can legitimately undertake to do, and can charge for if they like. And market forces can work both ways -- there's complete competition here, so anyone can transcribe this information and host it, and if you prefer FindMyPast to Ancestry (for example), whether on cost, accessibility, transcription reliability or whatever, you can vote with your wallet.
And I still don't really get your argument about exploitation, redroger. It's only exploitative if the people volunteering their transcribing services are misled about the purpose and eventual use to which their efforts will be put. When I transcribed for FreeBMD, I did so on the basis of that organisation's ethos; when I did similarly for Ancestry, the same applied. No-one's tried to move the goalposts.
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Whilst I understand your point, FosseWay, I still believe that the potential for exploitation is there, but if it was to be made plain, and I mean a lot plainer than a computer software "agreement" that the transcriptions might later but put out for paid viewing, then that is OK. I assume you mean simply the preservation of documents to be provided free by the state, fine, but what happens when a government takes power which is obsessed with cutting public expenditure? I suspect these services would be the first to go, as I fear places like the National Archive and County Record Offices may do in the near future.
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Hi Milly,
replying to the copy bit.
I think they really do mean a copy - unless they say you must send the original certified copy ( which they then will also state they will return the originals back to you).
Hi Cell....actually what is really bugging me is that the internet providor is insisting on seeing a copy of the certificate at all!! I just don't see why I should have to send it just to switch the service into my mother's name. They are quite happy to take her direct debit payment but won't speak to her! And... I already gave in once and eventually sent a scan of the certificate but either they have not done anything with it or it is not enough. We really have enough to do without messing about sorting this out. None of the utilities wanted to see proof of anything. Grrrr. Grrrr. Grrrr.
Anyway - off topic again.
::)
Milly
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Is a JP allowed to charge to certify a document? I know that a Doctor charges for a private sick certificate if required, and a lawyer will also charge , often in guineas!
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Charge or not - I'm still not going to send it!
Milly
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Whilst I understand your point, FosseWay, I still believe that the potential for exploitation is there, but if it was to be made plain, and I mean a lot plainer than a computer software "agreement" that the transcriptions might later but put out for paid viewing, then that is OK. I assume you mean simply the preservation of documents to be provided free by the state, fine, but what happens when a government takes power which is obsessed with cutting public expenditure? I suspect these services would be the first to go, as I fear places like the National Archive and County Record Offices may do in the near future.
The only transcription-to-PPV service I'm aware of is Ancestry's, which I've transcribed for. I can't remember what is specifically written in the T&Cs when you sign up, but I think the hypothetical 'reasonable person' as defined for legal purposes would be expected to understand that if they transcribe records for a paying site using proprietary software developed by that company which will ultimately appear among the resources available on that site, then people will have to pay to access them. I can see that it is theoretically possible for exploitation or obtaining services under false pretences to occur in the situations we're discussing, but IMO this doesn't apply to the Ancestry transcription project and in any case the problem lies in the dishonesty, rather than the fact that the dishonest organisation charges for the services it provides.
On your comment about the fate of archives in the current financial climate, I quite agree with you, although I wouldn't have thought that currently preserved collections are at risk of damage or decay. The bigger risk is that public access to them may be restricted if the buildings housing them close.
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On your comment about the fate of archives in the current financial climate, I quite agree with you, although I wouldn't have thought that currently preserved collections are at risk of damage or decay. The bigger risk is that public access to them may be restricted if the buildings housing them close.
I just hope you're right about this, but I have terrible fears about the integrity of archives over the next few years, and once lost, unless already copied, gone for ever.
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Should I be concerned? My daughter (at York University studying history and archaeology) contacted our local RC parish and volunteered to transcribe their records to provide the parish with a searchable database...she is nearing completion of the funeral records from 1924 to 2000, and has transcribed over 2500 records into a Microsoft Access database. Baptism and marriage transcriptions will follow. It is not easy.....local knowledge is a boon with placenames, but latinised first names can be difficult and we both check and cross-check the transcription. Who owns the database and can it be sold? We thought we were doing the parish a good deed (and genealogists, and of course, ourselves as it is our own parish where we presume lots of our rellies are recorded!!!!!). We (rightly or wrongly) presumed the parish would own the completed database, but the thought of selling this to a commercial company for profit is a little disconcerting........can someone tell me who 'owns' the database please? We have no objection to the parish making 'a bob or two' ....and will still complete transcriptions, but we are interested in the 'copyright/ ownership' issues. Thanks everyone
Mary
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Your daughter will own the database right for 15 years (a type of copyright for facts) for her transcripts. Unless she assigns the right to the parish concerned or to her university etc.
Cheers
Guy
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Thank you for your very prompt response..........can she then use the databse to answer queries? Or post a link to allow free searches?
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She could use that database in any way she pleases.
Cheers
Guy