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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: DavidTaylor on Wednesday 11 August 10 04:35 BST (UK)
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Hello:
Hoping someone can help me solve a mystery and and potentially get me through a brick wall.
I have reason to believe, albeit circumstantial, that George Frederick Taylor of Well Street, Hackney (b.1815 d. Jan 8, 1892) and Christian Frederick Taylor of Stoke Newington (b. 1810- 1900) are first cousins.
GF father was George Taylor (1783-1836) and I'm not sure of Christian's fathers name, but I believe they were brothers.
Here is the 1881 census of Christian Frederick Taylor
Household:
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
Christian F. TAYLOR Head M Male 71 Middlesex, England Retired Coachman
Louisa TAYLOR Wife M Female 59 Brighton, Sussex, England
Susan M. TAYLOR Daur U Female 24 Stoke Newington, Middlesex, England
Edward A. TAYLOR Son U Male 21 Stoke Newington, Middlesex, England Land Agent Clerk
Arthur E. TAYLOR Son U Male 19 Stoke Newington, Middlesex, England Unemployed Clerk
Ernest BARNES Nephew U Male 19 Bow, Middlesex, England
Here is 1881 census of George Frederick Taylor
Household:
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
George F. TAYLOR Head M Male 65 Hackney, Middlesex, England Plumber & Painter
Caroline T. TAYLOR Wife M Female 64 Stoke Newington, Middlesex, England
Alice TAYLOR Daur U Female 32 Hackney, Middlesex, England
Arthur TAYLOR Son U Male 28 Hackney, Middlesex, England Grainer (Painter House)
Albert TAYLOR Son U Male 26 Hackney, Middlesex, England Plumber
The circumstantial evidence I have is that on the 1861 census two women who are George Frederick Taylors wifes relatives, Matilda and Mary Ann Broadbridge are living with Christian Frederick Taylor... Could be a coincidence, but with this and them sharing the middle name Frederick I'm thinking there is a tie here..
What I really need to show is that both of their fathers are brothers!
Any help proving this would be much appreciated!
David
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Hi I wish I could spend more time helping out, but my shift at work is about to end!
But if it gives any clues, on the 1851 for George he has a William Henry Broadbridge aged 20, working as an apprentice with him.
Census Ref HO107/1506/92/41
Christian is on HO107/1503/92/41
Must go, but best of luck with your quest!
Keyboard86
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Yes, that would be his brother in law, Thanks!
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Hi
1851 census HO107 1503 folio 92
Church Street St Mary Stoke Newington Middlesex
Christian Taylor 41 Head Married Cow keeper St James Westminster
Louisa Taylor 29 Wife Married Brighton Sussex
Henry Woollard 10 Son-in-law France British Subject
Louisa Taylor 2 Daughter Stoke Newington Middlesex
George Taylor 1 Son Stoke Newington Middlesex
On the 1861 census Christian gave his birthplace as Paddington and in 1891 Piccadilly - which would be consistent with St James Westminster also known as St James Piccadilly.
Marriages Dec 1847
TAYLOR Christian Frederick S Martin 1 160
WILLARD Louisa St Martin 1 160
CHRISTIAN FREDERICK TAYLOR
LOUISA WILLARD
Marriage: 21 DEC 1847 Saint Martin In The Fields, Westminster
You would have to purchase the certificate to obtain information on Christian's father or else contact Westminster Archives.
Regards
Valda
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Pilotsearch has a Christian Frederick TAYLOR born 10 Jun 1809, and baptised 25 Nov 1810 at St James Westminster. His parents are listed as Christian Frederick TAYLOR and Sarah. Could be a possibility.
Ian C
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Hi
Other children
St James Westminster
Helen bapt 19th August 1804
George bapt 12th October 1806
Martha Bapt 12th Sept 1808
Sarah bapt 27th December 1812
William Thomas bapt 10th October 1813 King Street, father's occupation servant
St Andrew Holborn
Alexander bapt 15th February 1818 (born 1816) father's occupation Ostler
Catherine Bapt 15th February 1818
Elizabeth bapt 6th February 1820
Frederica Caroline bapt 15th Sept 1822
Ann Alexanderina bapt 13th November 1825
Georgina Christiana bapt 8th February 1824
Deaths Jun 1844 TAYLOR Christian Frederick Clerkenwell 3 88
1841 census HO107 662/5 folio 37
Collier Place Clerkenwell Middlesex
Cristan Taylor 61 Ostler not born in county
Catharine Taylor 22 F S born in county
Caroline Taylor 19 F S born in county
Georgiana Taylor 17 F S born in county
Regards
Valda
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Thank you, I'll look into these more!
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For those keeping tabs, I found a descendant of Christian Frederick Taylor on Rootschat. He states that C.F.T.'s father was named Christian Taylor (b cir 1775) and his mother, Susanna (b cir 1779).. Now, my line would be George Taylor (b Cir 1783) and Grace nee Manning (b. cir 1775). and again, I'm theorizing that George and Christian were brothers.
My George got married at St Leonards, Shoreditch in 1804 and lived his whole life in Hackney. His Christian was married in Westminster(?) and seems like he lived in Stoke Newington... Now I just have to find a common birth location and common parents for George and Christian and this mystery will be solved! :o
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Hi
It is important to stick to the evidence the records give. The mother's name on all the baptisms was Sarah. If it had been different from the baptism of Christian Frederick in 1810 given by Ian for any of the other baptisms I would have given the variations.
There is evidence of a different Christopher (amended) Taylor married to a Susannah baptising children at St George Hanover Square (1817, 1819 and 1822). He was a sadler. He had no second christian name.
Christian Frederick Taylor gave his age as 61 on the 1841 census. On that census he stated (written clearly as N) he was born out of County - i.e. not born Middlesex. His death certificate would also give his age.
Deaths Jun 1844 TAYLOR Christian Frederick Clerkenwell 3 88
The evidence of the 1841 census alone (which is not always accurate on ages) gives his birth year as circa 1780.
There doesn't seem to be any evidence as yet placing Christian Frederick senior's marriage to Sarah in Westminster. As he was born out of county he could have married before arriving in the London area. There doesn't seem to be any evidence as yet that he had any connection with Hackney. Between 1804-1813 he was in St James Westminster. Between 1818-1824 he was in Holborn. 1841-1844 Clerkenwell.
There is evidence that one of Christian Frederick and Sarah's 12 children - Christian Frederick junior was living in Stoke Newington (north Hackney) from circa 1849 onwards. His marriage in 1847 'places him' (by tradition marriages took place in the wife's parish) in St Martins Westminster.
This map may help navigate around London
http://www.british-towns.net/en/level_2_display_ByL1.asp?GetL1=203
Holborn you will find under Camden (Clerkenwell subsumed into Holborn)
This is the entry of your Taylors (as indexed - extremely difficult to read the image) on the 1841 census
1841 census HO107 699/3 folio 24
Wells Street South Hackney (parish of St John Hackney)
George Taylor 25
Grace Taylor 60
Caroline Taylor 20
Catherine Taylor 20
Alfred Hemper 15
Adult ages, those over 15, usually rounded down to the nearest 5 on the 1841 census
This burial for Grace's husband George
27th June 1836 St John Hackney
George Taylor aged 53, Well Street
and Grace
30th May 1844
Grace aged 68, Wells Street
As it is difficult to read the 1841 census image to see whether Grace says Y or N to born in county (though Y is unreliable on the 1841 census) and George died before the 1841 census there doesn't seem any evidence to show George in particular, was also born in Middlesex? London was a city that constantly needed new blood and people arrived in the City (and still do on a daily basis) drawn there for the opportunities it gave.
The IGI (Family Search) is a imperfect index and many parishes are not coverred by it or only partially covered.
How are Matilda and Mary Ann Broadbridge connected to Grace Taylor (nee possibly Manning or Chapman)? On the 1861 census, with the Taylor family they give their ages as 39 and 29 and born Stoke Newington.
18th November 1821 St Mary, Stoke Newington born 21st October
Matilda Broadbridge parents Charles and Elizabeth, Stoke Newington, father's occupation plumber
Marianne baptised 17th December 1830 born 28th November Charles and Mary Anne were the parents
Possible marriage
20th January 1810 St Luke, Old Street
Charles Broadbridge
Elizabeth Peppercorn
Bachelor and spinster of the parish
Both signed
Witnesses Jn Smith and ?
1841 census HO107 669/5 folio 23
Church Street Stoke Newington
Charles Broadbridge 55 Plumber
Mary Ann Broadbridge 50
Matilda Broadbridge 15
Mary Ann Broadbridge 10
William Broadbridge 8
all born in county
Charles's age given on the 1851 census was 64 and his birth place was Church Street Stoke Newington. He married his second wife in 1826. She was Mary Ann nee Shotter aged 62 and born Sunbury on Thames Middlesex on the 1851 census.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda:
the broadbridge girls are the sisters of George Frederick Taylors (1815-1892) wife. She was Caroline Truth Broadbridge. Once she died GF Taylor married MaryAnn Broadbridge.
I know you thought Christian Fredrick Taylor died 1844 in Clerkenwell but isn't he still alive at his sons wedding at St Martins in 1847? I thought he was more likely the Christian Frederick Taylor who died 1900 at age 91?
Thanks
David
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Hi
There is no question on and English and Welsh marriage certificate which asks whether the father was deceased. It was the practice of some officials to ask for the information and place it on the certificate, or if the information was supplied place it on the certificate. This was far from standard practice. Many officials did not ask the question or place the information on the certificate even if given the information (since there was no question which asked it). Therefore to not have the word deceased on a marriage certificate means nothing and is no guarantee that the father was still alive.
I haven't seen the full entry of the 1847 marriage certificate for Christian Frederick junior only an index with no details of father given. As I stated on a previous post
You would have to purchase the certificate to obtain information on Christian's father or else contact Westminster Archives.
This death registration
Deaths Mar 1900 Taylor Christian Frederick 91 Hackney 1b 360
would go with this baptism that Ian gave
Christian Frederick TAYLOR born 10 Jun 1809, and baptised 25 Nov 1810 at St James Westminster. His parents are listed as Christian Frederick TAYLOR and Sarah
Christian Frederick Taylor junior who married in 1847.
Regards
Valda
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Thanks for clarifying Valda.. I must have gotten lucky because on all my marriage certificates where the father is deceased, it says deceased! Thankfully. .. For some reason this isn't allowing me to post the photo of the Certificate..I'll post it in a new category called Christian Frederick Taylor marriage,
DAVID
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Ok, sorry, I'm a bit slow! I just realized I was confusing CF Taylor the elder and the Jr! If the elder died in 1900 he'd be over 120! I'm still perplexed with the wife Sarah vs Susanna though... The IGI isn't being much help
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Hi
For copyright reasons we do not allow full posts of certificates on Rootschat but do allow partial posts, usually when posters are trying to decipher a section of the certificate.
Taylor is an extremely common surname.
http://www.taliesin-arlein.net/names/search.php
At this point the Office of National Statistics rates Taylor as the 4th most common surname in the country after Smith, Jones and Williams with Brown coming in 5th. ONS estimates a present population of 306,296 Taylors.
In 1821 London had a population of 1,379,543. The population of the whole of England Wales was 12,000,236.
New York city's population in 1820 was 123,706 and for the whole of America 9,638,453
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,403512.0.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_New_York_City
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States
There would therefore be a lot of Taylors in London and the London area in 1821. Since there would be a lot of Taylors you would have to expect more than one Christian Taylor in London. Christian would be a more unusual first name but not a rare one. With more than one Christian Taylor in a very large city with no necessary connections to each other you would expect more than one Christian Taylor marriage with more than one Christian Taylor wife.
What is the information from records (the 1847 certificate states father Christian Frederick Taylor) for this statement?
I found a descendant of Christian Frederick Taylor on Rootschat. He states that C.F.T.'s father was named Christian Taylor (b cir 1775) and his mother, Susanna (b cir 1779)..
The baptism previously given by Ian
Christian Frederick TAYLOR born 10 Jun 1809, and baptised 25 Nov 1810 at St James Westminster. His parents are listed as Christian Frederick TAYLOR and Sarah
http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html?datestamp=1204024901500#start
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda. The certificate has the father as Christian Frederick retired coachman. I am finding Christian was a much more common name for women in the 1800's
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Hi
Christian was usually a female name in the Middle ages but by the C18th was used for men as well (Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progess in 1684 may have made it more popular as a boy's name)
Regards
Valda
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Christian Frederick Taylor gave his age as 61 on the 1841 census. On that census he stated (written clearly as N) he was born out of County - i.e. not born Middlesex. His death certificate would also give his age.
Deaths Jun 1844 TAYLOR Christian Frederick Clerkenwell 3 88
The evidence of the 1841 census alone (which is not always accurate on ages) gives his birth year as circa 1780.
There doesn't seem to be any evidence as yet placing Christian Frederick senior's marriage to Sarah in Westminster. As he was born out of county he could have married before arriving in the London area. There doesn't seem to be any evidence as yet that he had any connection with Hackney. Between 1804-1813 he was in St James Westminster. Between 1818-1824 he was in Holborn. 1841-1844 Clerkenwell.
Hi Everyone.. I've been spending lots of time on ancestry, familysearch and pilot search trying variations of Christians and Cristians etc to see if i could find a birth record for this person cir 1780-1785 to no avail. I can only assume these records have not been digitized or heavens forbid, no longer exist! Can anyone recommend a next step taking into consideration I'm not in England? Hiring someone? ???
Thank you
David
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Hi
Where and what would you direct them to search? You usually hire researchers based on their area (particular area of the country) or type of record in a particular repository (e.g. military in The National Archives). If you have a specific lead you want a researcher to follow then could be a possibility to hire one.
Not every line is immediately solvable and it is particularly difficult to place people in London who died before the 1851 census. However further C18th parish registers are being indexed in the London area via Ancestry (not yet available though the images of many of the parish registers) and through Family Search which is increasingly indexing new parish records across the country. Further indexing will produce more and more records but bare in mind some counties are very poorly served by the IGI (the lowest coverage is almost in single figures) and some have much better coverage.
Regards
Valda
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You are right Valda.
I find this question particularly frustrating though because I feel I know the answer (that George Frederick and Charles Frederick are related), but just need that one bit of solid evidence! That one link will also break the wall I've had for many years now.
Thanks as usual!
David :D
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Hello friends
Finally received the death certificate recommended for Christian Frederick Taylor. Sadly I'm not seeing anything on there to bring me closer to my theory that he was the brother of George Taylor born cir 1783, but I may be missing something.
Christian Frederick the elder died June 5, 1844 at age 66 of dropsey. His place of death was 4 York Court, Registration Dist Saint James Clerkenwell. , sub dist of Pentonville, Clerkenwell, Middlesex.
Occupation Ostler, informant his daughter Frederica Caroline Taylor.
If anyone sees any info on here that would be helpful please let me know.
Thank you
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Hi
All the death certificate would be likely to give is a more accurate year of birth
His age at death gives his birth year as circa 1777/1778
The informant confirms it was the Christian who married Sarah though I'd be surprised if the relationship was given on the death certificate.
15th September 1822 St Andrew Holborn born 6th March
Frederica Caroline Taylor parents Christian Frederick and Sarah, Liquor frond Street, father's occupation ostler
Regards
Valda
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If anyone is interested - I've been researching young Henry "Taylor" born in France 1842, son of Louisa Willard and person unknown. Louisa Willard married Christian Frederick Taylor who adopted Henry. Henry married Isabella Gathercole and migrated to Australia in 1869 and had a pretty tragic time of it. Suffice to say, they only had one kid out of 7 to survive to adulthood. He's not an ancestor - I'm through Christian Frederick - Christian Frederick and Christian John Taylor. Got a good photo of Christian John Taylor if anyone wants it. Jeff
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Hello! I'm interested thank you!
So, you did this research although you say these people are not related to you? Well, I guess technically since Henry was adopted he isn't my relative either. WhO is Christian John Taylor?
I am currently having some research done on my original question (the topic of this thread)
Thanks
David
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OK. Louisa Willard (1822) was the daughter of Henry Willard (1776), a millwright in Brighton and Susanna (unknown). Henry was married to Lucy at the time. Baptism certificate for Louisa in Broadwater-by-Worthing Sussex in January 1823.
Louisa married Christian Frederick Taylor (1809-1900) in 1847 at Saint Martin in the Fields. With her she brought her son Henry. Henry had been born in 1842 in France to person unknown. In the 1851 census he is shown twice; once as Henry Willard living with his grandmother Susanna in Hailsham with her husband Edward Barnard, and once with his mother's new family in Stoke Newington as Henry Woollard, but you know it's him as he was born in France in 1842.
Henry was still living with the Taylors in 1861 and has now got the surname of Taylor - again the fact that he was born in France gives it away that he's the same guy. In 1871 - Susanna (Louisa's mother) is living with the Taylor family. So Henry was the guy that held it all together, so I was always interested in him.
By sheer chance, I live in Melbourne Australia now, been here 17 years now, and my Ancestry search always seems to default to Australian records for some reason. Henry appeared in a search - his death record (6/1/1917) clearly shows him as; Henry Taylor, father's name Christian Frederick Taylor, mother's name Louisa Willard, born in France in 1842, father's occupation Coachman.
A quick search of Australian records showed that he and his wife Isabella Gathercole (daughter of Robert Gathercole) arrived in Melbourne on the Hougoumont in May 1869. With them they had two kids, one of whom died on the voyage (I believe), and one survived; William Arthur Taylor 1868-1939. Isabella and Henry continued to have a further 5 children all who died in childhood under 6. Henry died in the Melbourne hospital of kidney failure and hypostatic pneumonia aged 75 occupation shown as wharf labourer. Isabella died in 1922. I traced Henry's burial to the Coburg Cemetery but it was a pauper's grave with no headstone plot COE D1202 - I visited on Friday and paid my last repsects.
So all in all, he had a tough life, and I try and imagine what life must have been like for him 100 years ago. I will always remember him as the guy who tied together my family tree. He is also the only person in my entire family tree who was not born in England!!
Anyway - thank you for listening to the tale of Henry. I would love any more information about Susanna's maiden name - I have tried without success to find details of her marriage to bricklayer Edward Barnard of Hailsham. I would also like to know more about Henry Willard (1776), Louisa's father, some have said he was from Chiddingly in Sussex, but I have seen no proof. I would also like to know where Christian Frederick Taylor (1778-1844) the ostler married to Sarah was from.
Cheers, Jeff
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Sorry David, I have no idea how to attach the photo of my great great-grandfather, Christian John Taylor (born 1853), a butler. Christian was the son of Christian Frederick Taylor (1809-1900), son of Christian Frederick Taylor (1788-1844) and was half-brother to the unfortunate Henry (1842-1917), in that they shared the same mother, Louisa Willard. Christian John married an Eliza Monk (1849-1933) who also features in this photo with their two eldest sons Reginald and George (my great grandfather).
Jeff
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Thanks Jeff! You can email it to *
I guess we are somehow related. My GGG grandfather was George Frederick TaylOr and im sure he and your Charles Frederick were related, most likely cousins. As a matter of fact at one poInt, GFs 2 sister in laws, the Broadbridge sisters are livIng with Charles Frederick.
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I am thinking my James Taylor, previously a brickwall, is now possibly connected to these queries, he married an Eliza Shotter , They married Sunbury,and I see in the posting from Valda,that her Charles married a Mary Ann Shotter, who was possibly Eliza's mother?. .
Frederick is a name running through my line too.My grandfather was Frederick Charles.No longer Taylor, as I come from a female line, but Taylor was a middle name for one of the sons.
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Re Taylors and Shotter posted by Valda, I have just worked out, that my James Taylor who married Eliza Shotter in 1821 may be part of this tree.Eliza's mother Mary may be the one who married Charles Taylor as she was widowed in 1823. I would be keen to fit my James into these families. cheers penne
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Hi Penne.. Which Charles Taylor did Elizabeth Shotter marry? A relative of Christian Frederick Taylor or of George Frederick Taylor? and was she the sister of Maryann who married Charles Broadbridge?
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Cannot help with that question yet i'm sorry,Currently unwinding my James Taylor, who gave very different ages on the 1851-61 cencus, as did his wife Eliza nee Shotter.(not 100% confirmed)
We know James and Eliza had their earlier family at Kingston on Thames where he was variously, a corn chandler,coal merchant and carter. It was not until circa 1828 when the family went down to Deptford/Rotherhithe that James became a steward on ships. Elizas father James Shotter died 1823 and i found a posting on this mailing list from Valda mentioning a marriage of a Mary Shotter 1826 to a Charles, which looked promising.cheers penne
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James Taylor
Baptism
24 Nov 1793
St Nicholas, Deptford, Kent
Charles Taylor,
Susanna Taylor
this MAY be my James. ages on cencus are so far out, as to be almost useless.
James's wifes Eliza is around 1803/6 on the 1851/61 cencus and now we have confirmed her as Eliza Shotter (marriage mistranscribed as Sholler)_ we find she was born 1797. It is her sister Mary Ann who married widower Charles Broadbridge, and their spinster daughter also named Mary Ann Broadbridge who married widower George Frederick Taylor. Two other Shotter sisters Harriet and Rose both have their estates tied up with a daughter from Charles Broadbridges first marriage. So the intermingling continues.
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John frederick taylor died 1892 of 126 Well st hackney, left over six thousand pounds to son? george a glazier mary ann broadbridge spinster( A Mary Ann Broadbridge of 49 Devonshire rd died 22 march 1899 ) and James Phillips gentleman
I had thought the 1899 death of a Mary Ann Taylor was John Fs second wife, anyone have confirmation?
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John frederick taylor died 1892 of 126 Well st hackney, left over six thousand pounds to son? george a glazier mary ann broadbridge spinster( A Mary Ann Broadbridge of 49 Devonshire rd died 22 march 1899 ) and James Phillips gentleman
I had thought the 1899 death of a Mary Ann Taylor was John Fs second wife, anyone have confirmation?
Hi there. It's George Frederick Taylor, not John, that died 1892 at 126 Well Street and he was married to Maryann Broadbridge but it was illegal to be married to your dead wife's (Caroline Broadbridge) sister
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Of course it was David, apols.
I was bogged down with them all, yesterday.
My Mary Ann Broadbridge nee Shotter who died in 1860,2nd wife of Charles Broadbridge left her estate to her stepdaughter Caroline Truth Taylor, nee Broadbridge. getting that document later.
In the meantime another stepdaughter Matilda was with Christian taylor as a lodger in 1861 cencus along with her own daughter Mary Ann..Possibly had been living with widow Mary Ann nee Shotter until her death 1860 , then estate sold????
Perhaps some family disharmony at caroline truth being sole benificiary,both women were well overage and both later married, matilda to a William fry and Mary Ann jnr to yet another taylor, as previously said, except I had John frederick instead of george Frederick m 22 Aug 1882(not double checked). I still think with my Eliza Shotter, sister of Mary Ann Shotter, who married a James taylor must fit in here somewhere.
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hello David and others, Just asking if anyone in your Taylor family has done DNA? cousin Rhondda and I have done the autosomal one, and hopefully some of you guys can do the male Y one, this will confirm whether any or all of our Taylors have a common ancestor.
After testing with your chosen company, do download to gedmatch the common, pool for most of the commercial companies. no cost.