RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: nilbud on Tuesday 10 August 10 03:01 BST (UK)
-
I'm searching for any information on Michael Canavan from Dublin c1806 - 1880. I'm also looking for info on his wife Catherine Mulvaney. At least two of his children moved to Australia - 1855 & 1867. He was a painter. They may have had three children that died Michael 1843, Catherine 1844, Mary 1845. They may have been living at Dignam's Court in Dublin at the time.
Any information would be fantastic!
-
You could check the free website at http://www.irishgenealogy.ie to see if there are any details. This includes many parish records for Dublin City (but not many for the county). Further RC records are due to be added later this year.
Do you know any more about the family - e.g. years of birth for any of the children ?
Shane
-
Hi Shane,
The birth years for the children are approximate.
Jane: c1841. She was an assisted passenger to Australia in 1855.
John: c1843. He was an unassisted passenger to Australia in 1867.
Susan: c1847 No information on her except that she was alive in 1868.
There may have been a James (Jemmy) and another born between 1850-1860.
Michael Canavan mentions in a letter to his son John, dated 1868, that the union was building a new Trade Hall in Aungier Street, near St. Peters church. He said he had been at Sibthorpes for three days (probably painting). He said he had borrowed 30s from the union and owed them his dues + the borrowed money. He talks of many men who had died recently but didn't say how they died. He didn't know where John had gone and was glad he escaped (doesn't say from what). He mentions Catherine has another baby and Jemmy sprained his arm.
I had contact from a man in Dublin who mentioned he had found a Michael Canavan who died in Dublin in 1880. He had been living on Dignam's Court (tenement houses).
I later found three Canavan babies who died and had been living at Dignam's Court. Two of the babies had the names Michael and Catherine Canavan. So it is possible they were Michael and Catherine Canavan's children.
I have not been able to find any more links or certificates to link them together or to discover any further relatives.
Thanks,
Jenni
-
You can search the Civil BMD Index online for events after the start of Full Civil Registration (1864) - see : Introduction to Irish Records (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html)
Do you know what religion the family were ?
Shane
-
Thom's 1877
Aungier St
27 - Painter's Hall
St. Peters (CofI) Church is at Number 53.
Shane
-
Hello again,
I was told - don't know if it was true - that during the potato famine they changed from Catholic to Protestant because they couldn't get any help from the RC church to feed they family. Jane and John changed back to Catholic in Australia.
Jenni
-
Some people certainly did switch religion to CofI around this time ... I think it was called 'taking the soup'
I am not certain if conversion was required for this aid, or just encouraged.
Shane
-
Is Thom's available online anywhere? It seems here it is available to purchase on CD.
Jenni
-
Two editions of Thom's are available to browse on google books - the 1850 and 1852, and an extract (street listing) of the 1862 edition is available somewhere - I'll check for the link
I have a few other editions... I have found an entry for Silthorpes, which I'll post after lunch
Shane
-
I dont think Dublin City was hit that hard by the famine - so not sure if that would have been a reason to convert. The worst hit areas were in west and south west of Ireland. In earlier years before Catholic emancipation (1824), the penal laws were in operation and these would have put pressure on families to convert. These included a provision where, on inheritance, property belonging to a Catholic had to be divided up between all sons - thereby gradually breaking up property and farms.
I presume this is the Silthorpe's being referred to in Michael's letter.
Thom's 1877 :
H. Sibthorpe & son, painters, importers of windows & plate glass,
agents of the Union Plate Glass Company,
Maw and Co's encaustic tiles, and Pooley and Son's
weighing machines. 18 Castle Street, 11 & 12 Cork Hill,
marble & stone works at 113 to 121 Gt. Brunswick St.
Shane
-
Your information regarding the early laws makes more sense for the family converting.
Was it usual for RC families in the early 1800s to be educated? Michael was obviously able to read and write well and so were his children. I'm not sure about Michael's wife Catherine (Mulvaney).
I have not found anything on Catherine except a possible link to a Mary Mulvaney who came to Australia on the same ship as Jane Canavan. They could be cousins or Mary could be an aunt.
Jenni
-
I just checked the source I found the three Canavan children who died. It was the Irish Genealogy website. It states they were CofI.
Do you know how I can purchase copies of their death/burial certificates? Would there be any further information on the certificates?
Jenni
-
The dates you are looking for are too early (1843-45) for civil certs - Civil registration only started in 1864 ..
see
Introduction to Irish Records (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html)
Details included on a Death Cert (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,433043.0.html)
Ordering Certs from GRO Roscommon (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,433040.0.html)
Shane
-
I presume you've seen this marriage (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/d259d70892283)
Parish : St. George - CofI
Date : 11 September 1871
Groom : Michael Canavan, House painter of 4 Johnstons Court
Bride: Mary Osbourne of 4 Johnstons Court
Groom's Father: Michael
Bride's Father John
With the same surname and occupation, it seems likely there could be a connection. Michael is a widower - so 2nd marriage for him.
Shane
-
Really intriguing!
I had come across the marriage record but never looked into it because of the brides name. I hadn't thought that perhaps Catherine had died as I found no records of her death.
The address is different than the address I was given from the 1851 Census. I assumed if they had been living in the tenements it would be very difficult to get out.
It's so exciting! This could be a link to much more information.
Thank you so much!!
Jenni
-
people moved around quite a bit - especially people living in rentals (e.g. tenements). I think that most of people who stayed in one place were the slightly better off, or those who owned their property or had long leases.
There's more than one Johnston's court in Dublin, but based in the Parish Of St. George this would relates to the one in the North City. The parish church is off Hardwicke St near to Dorset St.
I'll check for details of this Johnston's court later on to see what's listed.
Shane
-
Thank you so much! It's almost 1am here, so I'll be off but will check first thing in the morning to see if there is anymore news.
Jenni
-
There were three Johnston's Court and at least two Dignam Court addresses in Dublin city, but I think the two off Gt. Britian St (now Parnell St) are most likely.
Thoms 1848
Dignam's Court, off Gt. Britain St, Civil Parish - St. George
5 Old Houses in Tenements
Johnson's Court, off Gt. Britain St, Civil Parish - St. George
1 to 4 Tenements... entire street (1 to 12) is tenements is 1863
(all the addresses later known as Johnston's are referred to as Johnson's in the edition )
Details or occupants are not given for any of the above in any other Thom's I checked - 1868, '72 or '79 etc
Both the streets appear to have been to the north of the Gt. Britain street, close to each other, and not far from Rutland/Parnell Square.
The Painter's Union Hall that Michael mentioned, survived for about 90 years at the same address, and was close to the jct with York st and nearly opposite St. Peters Church :
27 Aungier St.
1868 - Sarah Humphrey, straw bonnet & millinery warehouse
1872 - Painter's Hall
1879 - Painter's Hall, James Cassidy, secretary
...
1904 - Painters Trade Hall
1927 - Irish National Painters, Decorators, and Allied Trade Unions - Patrick Mulhall General Organiser.
1949 - (similar details)
1958 - 27 to 30 demolished
The address was a car park in 1972
Sibthorpe painting business is listed as early as 1848 and still listed in 1904 ... maybe they were his employer, or he was a contractor for them ?
Shane
-
This is absolutely amazing! I have been searching for years and was beginning to think I was at a dead-end.
Did you come across anything on Catherine, Michael's first wife?
I can't thank you enough for all the time and effort you have given!
Jenni
-
I dont see any sign of Catherine & Michael as a couple, or baptisms for the children you mentioned (Jane: c1841, John: c1843, Susan: c1847). Maybe they were born in a parish that's not on the system yet (several large RC parishes have yet to be added - St. Mary's Marlboro St, St. Pauls Arran quay etc) Maybe they lived outside the city or county ?
Is there any mention of where they lived (or clues to the area) in Micheal's letter ?
I also cannot locate any Canavan (or similar) baptisms in St. George's parish or Dignam's Lane... to confirm if they are children of Michael & Catherine or not. Maybe these three children died when they were too young and missed that. Ages on burial records were 9 Dys, 5 Wks, and 9 Dys. Some of my CofI ancestors were baptised months after birth, whereas RC baptisms seemed to generally take place more quickly - sometimes even on the day of birth.
Shane
-
There's no mention of exactly where they were living other than Dublin. It would have been great to have the envelope - but I only have a photocopy of the letter.
I have copies of both John's and Jane's marriage and death certificates and they both have Michael Canavan and Catherine Mulvaney as their parents. Both say they were born in Dublin.
There is mention of Catherine having another baby and Jemmy spraining his arm. I don't know who Jemmy is or anything about the baby.
Jenni
-
Dublin can mean the county or suburbs rather than just the city... most of these parishes are not included in the IrishGenealogy website.
see attached a recent photo of St. George's Church, Hardwick St, where Michael Canavan married Mary Osbourne in 1871.
Shane
-
Thank you so much for the photo! The church is beautiful! I'm so glad to see some of the buildings from that period have survived. It's so sad when a beautiful building is demolished in the name of progress.
How far from Johnston Court would this church be?
Jenni
-
...
How far from Johnston Court would this church be?
..
I would say half to one km - see google map of George's Place to Rutland Place (http://www.google.ie/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=George%27s+Place,+Dublin&daddr=Rutland+Place,+Dublin&hl=en&geocode=FeArLgMd8XCg_yk9FxHqfQ5nSDGvmgVhmOvO_g%3B&mra=ls&sll=53.357536,-6.262543&sspn=0.01109,0.026693&ie=UTF8&ll=53.355879,-6.261821&spn=0.005545,0.013347&z=16) (off Gt. Britain / Parnell St)
(estimated location for Johnston Place)
Shane
-
Hi Shane,
I haven't found anything on Michael's father (Michael) the seaman. Was there a specific place he would have been based? I assume a seaman would not be the same as a mariner. Are there Irish lists of seaman for the late 1700s early 1800s? I couldn't find any on the internet.
No success with Catherine Mulvaney either.
Amazing how a breakthrough can be so exciting and then become so frustrating again.
Thanks again,
Jenni
-
Hello nilbud,
could you contact me at : *
I`m interested in comparing notes with you regarding Michael CANAVAN and family.
Michael CANAVAN is my great great grandfather, John, his son, my great grandfather.
Norman A. in OZ.
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy, to help protect against spamming and other abuses. Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility. See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php