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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Inverness => Topic started by: MonicaL on Sunday 08 August 10 15:02 BST (UK)
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I wonder whether someone local or who has done this, could answer my question. Is it possible to go on to the Isle in Loch Shiel. I know it is not accessible by the bigger boats but by smaller craft. Are you able to do this or is it 'out of bounds'?
Monica :)
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Hi,
If you leave a message for Jean Cameron on the Lochaber & North Argyll Family History Group message board, she will help with this one. Jean has done a lot of research on the St Finian's Isle burial ground.
Regards,
brigau
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Thanks Brigau :)
I've exchanged emails with Jean some years ago (at Moidart.Org). I'll try doing what you suggest.
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Just as an after thought--- you're not looking for the Guisechan or Glenborrodale Camerons by any chance?
Regards,
brigau
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Always MacDonalds with me Br1gau ;D I know they're in there somewhere. I understand a few years ago there was talk of MIs being put together into some form of document by local historians but no idea what came of that.
I'm up there next week with the children introducing them to their MacDonald heritage! So, if you hear of some mad woman, husband and children getting into trouble on Loch Shiel...that will be my crew 8)
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Ha! Well it's the McLachlans and the Ardgour Boyds for me. Both the Camerons and Macdonalds are peripheral to our family -- but also interesting.
It was indeed our very own Jean who was working on the St. Finians Isle project, but I believe it's on hold while she sorts out 19thC Ft William High Street. We've had some good exchanges and she's helped me loads.
Two of our Boyds married into the Camerons mentioned above and both of those families had burials on St Finians.
brigau
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Hugely knowledgeable lady :)
Monica
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Well, I made it on to St Finnans Isle and what a special place it is, in the middle of Loch Shiel with breathtaking scenery and weather being very kind (more than the midges were which descended early evening...ouch!)
I have attached some photos here. Only a few, don't want to bore with my holiday piccies ::) but if anyone wants to see more, just pm me.
Brigau, I can now see what the issues are with doing MIs for the burial ground. There are so so few legible stones left. Indeed, given the thousands of burials that have taken place there over the centuries, there is very little in terms of graves stones or marker stones. I was really chuffed though to find the stone for my 3xg aunt Sarah MacDonald and her husband John from Langall (Jean Cameron had mentioned it was there to me years ago). As much as the volunteers try to keep up with nature, it is very much in areas gone back to nature.
Monica
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Old ruins of what is thought to be the church, with altar.
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Some stones, as with many weathered and beaten but still standing.
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Interesting structure with three remaining stones.
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Last one....
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Hi Monica,
What an extraordinary place, I love those weathered stones, they seem almost human. When was the last burial there? The Beattie's book of Nth Argyll MIs, if I remember lists just six entries for St Finians - the only legible ones I suppose, although I would have thought there would be more. Three of those are for our peripheral Camerons.
Is Rev. Charles McDonald, RC priest of Moidart, (died Helensburgh in 1894) the son of Alexander McDonald, Farmer & Distiller and Jessie Gordon one of yours, by any chance?
Glad you made it there and back safely.
brigau
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Rev Charles MacDonald not one of mine.
There are more than the six legible stones that show on the Beattie's book but you are probably talking about no more that twenty or so being legible today. Very few recent ones, which seemed well cared for.
Monica
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To MonicaL from Tiger48 in Australia,
>> I was really chuffed though to find the stone for my 3xg aunt Sarah MacDonald and her husband John from Langall <<
Hello Monica, this is the first time I have corresponded on RootsChat although my sister and I have followed some of your RootsChat posts on McDonalds from Moidart for some time.
When I read your above posts from 2010 I realised you are researching the SAME McDonald family members as we are from Australia.
Our McDonalds also came from Langal and Jean Cameron gave my sister much valuable information on our line in 2018-19. Our Angus and Marjory McDonald arrived in Australia in Sept 1852 on the Marco Polo. Angus is son of Allan McDonald (1771-1855) and Flora McDonald (1781-1856). We believe we have a complete understanding of all of Angus and Marjory's family and all their descendants in Australia.
Angus and Marjory boarded the Marco Polo with 8 children, but only 6 of their children survived the sea journey. 3 further children died in Scotland.
Their Children:
All 11 children were given the surname McDonald.
Ann (1829-1885), Flora (1831-1910), Mary Ann (1833-1884), Sarah (1836-1918), Catherine (Kate) (1838-1920), Roderick (1840-1915)-[Our GG Grandfather], Ranald (1842-1852)-[Died at Sea], Jannet (Jessie) (1848-1852). Three more children died in Scotland: Anne (1830-1830), Alexander (1845-?) and James (1850-?).
Furthermore, We have discovered via 1841 & 1851 Census records and Scotlands People searches that Alexander McDonald (McVarish) (1798-1874), from Langal, was the older brother of Angus. And that Alex'r married Peggy McMaster with their children being: Marcella (Chirsty) McDonald (1839-?), Allan McDonald (McVarish) (1840-1876), Angus McDonald (McVarish) (1843-?), John McDonald (McVarish) (1845-?), Alexander McDonald (McVarish) (1848-?) and Flora McDonald (1852-?). It is an enigma why the boys were Christened McVarish while the girls remained McDonald ?
We speculate that because all of these family members lived so close together at Langal there must have been more direct relatives such as possible grandparents, uncles, aunties, brothers, sisters, cousins etc, among the other McDonald, McVarish, McIsaac, McEachen family members living at or around Langal.
We do not have much understanding of Angus and Marjory's parents and siblings etc in Scotland. - We believe Marjory's original surname was also McDonald and that she came from Eilean Shona.
We wonder if you have any further knowledge about Allan and Flora McDonald from Langal and their ancestors, siblings, descendants, etc that you could share with us ?
Thanking you in advance.
Best regards, "Tiger48" - New to RootsChat.
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Hi Tiger48
Welcome to RootsChat :)
The names Allan MacDonald and Flora MacDonald, I haven't been able to connect to my direct lines. However, so hard getting info pre 1855, and the start of Scottish official registration, isn't it. I assume your line was Roman Catholic like mine? This complicates matter further in terms of records pre 1855.
I did have a note in my file of the death of Alexander, Angus's brother:
1874 / Alexander / 75 / Margaret / Langall / Allan / Flora
I put a post up here on RC of all the certs I had viewed on SP in case it helped anyone www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=83084.0
Monica
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So this would be the family in 1851 in Langall?:
Allan Mcdonald 80 Farmer Of 12 Acres b. Dalilea
Flora Mcdonald 70 b. Ethrinn, inverness shire (place name? Have you viewed original image?)
Alexander Mcdonald 30
John Mcdonald 28
Flora Mcdonald 26
Flora Mcdonald 18 grandchild
Jane Mcdonald 2 grandchild
Sarah Mclean 25 visitor b. Laggan Arisaig
Allan McDonald (1771-1855) and Flora McDonald (1781-1856) - If these death dates are correct, their deaths should show in the index on SP. Can't easily see them so far. Have you found these?
With you having made contact with Jean Cameron, I would assume that you have checked through the Moidart site for any mention of the family? www.moidart.org.uk/
Monica
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Furthermore, We have discovered via 1841 & 1851 Census records and Scotlands People searches that Alexander McDonald (McVarish) (1798-1874), from Langal, was the older brother of Angus.
A little confused. Always happens when looking at MacDonalds in Moidart ::)
Angus was born c. 1800, Alexander c. 1796 (corresponding 1874 death reg for him with parents' names).
The 1851 census above for an Allan, Flora and family in Langal has much younger children in the household including an Alexander born c. 1821. At the same time in Langal, is Alexander and wife Margaret with their family:
Alexander Mcdonald 57 farmer of 6 acres b. Langal
Peggy Mcdonald 34
Chirsty Mcdonald 12
Allan Mcdonald 10
Angus Mcdonald 8
John Mcdonald 6
Alexander Mcdonald 2
Something is not fitting here...
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Thanks for your replies.
It seems you are caught at the same point as ourselves and Jean Cameron on there being TWO adult Alexanders in this one Langal household. Jean indicated there were occasions where two children in one family had the same First name. We had to accept that as the explanation.
Also regarding Flora, we have searched high and low but have never been able to locate any place named Ethrinn.
Regarding the list of McDonald deaths from 1874 onwards. We did see that list from you some time ago.
1874 / Alexander / 75 / Margaret / Langall / Allan / Flora
1916 / Alexander / 43 / None / Moss / Archibald / Mary MacEachen
1876 / Allan / 31 / None / Langall / Alexander / Margaret MacMaster
Top of this list is Alexander Age 75 (brother of Angus). - Suggesting he was born in 1798-99.
And third on the list is Allan Age 31, eldest son of above Alexander and Margaret (Peggy) McMaster.
- This would suggest he was born in 1845 ?
- Yet other records show Allan being an older age as follows:
- The 1841 Census shows Alan at age 1. - Suggesting born 1840.
- The 1851 Census shows Allan at age 10. - Suggesting born in 1841.
- And Allan's Birth & Baptism record from Our lady of the Angels shows he was born as Allan to Alexander McVarish and Peggy McMaster on 8/12/1840.
So we reckon the above Death record for Allan was wrong and that he was actually closer to age 35 at his death in 1876.
Also regarding Alexander McDonald (McVarish) Snr.
Death Cert. shows age 76 in year 1875, so born ~ 1798-99.
Census 1841 shows Alex'r age 30, so born ~ 1811 ?
Census 1851 shows Alex'r age 57, so born ~ 1794 ?
- We took the older ages as closer to truth. - Accepted his birth year as 1798.
Another example: Angus declared himself to be 44 years of age on boarding the Marco Polo in 1852. However we know his age to be closer to 52 at that time.
Always confusing when various records show different calculated ages, both in Scotland and Australia.
Regarding your McDonald line. What are their names and ages and when were they residing at Langal? Are they identified in the 1841 or 1851 Census records ?
Regards, Tiger48.
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Blast from the past re-reading this! See www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/macisaac/47/ for quick summary on my line. Let me find some of the censuses and I will add shortly.
Monica
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This is Ranald MacD and Ann (McVarish) on the 1841 census. Older children nearby or working away (Angus, my line, had just married in Glenelg and returned to Dalnabreck by 1851).
www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14154cf4040b9d6efc65a5/flory-macdond-1841-argyllshire-ardnamurchan-1827-?locale=en
Dalnabrae/Dalnabreck and Langal, as you know, are next to each other and very close.
1851, and the family together www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/6050db34f4040b8616729466/ranold-mcdonald-1851-argyllshire-ardnamurchan-1784-?locale=en
A really useful feature of FreeCen is that it lets you view the adjoining addresses. Just click on the tab at the top of the page (clip of section attached below). You will in essence be walking the steps of the census enumeratorin the order he wrote down the entries. For Langal and Dalnabreac, you can easily view all the entries easily enough doing this.
Around this time, some of the children stayed in Dalnabreac and others, like Angus, my line, moved over to Langal.
This is Ranald in Langal for 1861:
Ronald Mcdonald 80 Farmer of 2 acres
Janet Mcdonald 41
Ronald Mcdonald 2
Florah Mcdonald 27
Address: 4 Langal, Acharacle
At the same address in 1861, son John with his family:
John Mcdonald 40
Mary Mcdonald 28
Angus Mcdonald 11
Donald Mcdonald 10
Catharine Mcdonald 8
Ronald Mcdonald 5
Ann Mcdonald 3
John Macdonald 1
Monica
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This is Angus and wife Christy (Gillies), my line, in 1871. Only daughter Sarah missing from here. Would need to check if she had married John MacDonald by now. Sarah and husband John have one of the main surviving stones on St Finian's Isle:
Angus McDonald 48
Christy McDonald 48
Simon McDonald 24
Margaret McDonald 18
Ann McDonald 16
Johanna McDonald 13
Mary McDonald 11
Address: Langal, Acharacle
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I was looking at the 1851 census entry for Allan and Flora on FreeCen. They too have had a problem with the birth place name for Flora www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/6050db34f4040b861672953e/allan-mcdonald-1851-argyllshire-ardnamurchan-1771-?locale=en They have it as Ethrium?
Can't see anything close to it here http://www.moidart.org.uk/pdfs/PlacenamesGordonBarr.pdf Some more lists to check here www.moidart.org.uk/placenames/placenames.htm
Is this the family in 1841? www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14154cf4040b9d6efc6548/allan-macdonald-1841-argyllshire-ardnamurchan-1781-?locale=en
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Yes you have our McDonald line correct in that 1841 Census at Langal. However Allan's wife Flora was not present at the house for that Census year. Next page shows our Angus and Marjory and family. Nearly all are present at Langal for the 1851 Census.
I looked at your McDonald line at Dalnabreck and Langal also.
Quite a variation in ages for three family members between 1841 and 1851 Census'.
1841 Census Ranald's age is 45, 1851 Census Ranold's age is 67 ?
1841 Census Wife Ann's age is 50, 1851 Census Ann's age is 67 ?
1841 Census Daug. Jessie's age is 20, 1851 Census Jannet's age is 39 ?
We experience this exact same problem when trying to obtain correct ages of our Rellies from those early years also.
Re Shift for your McDonald line from Dalnabreck to Langal subsequent to 1851. - Funny how things work out.
Many of our McDonalds vacated Langal soon after the 1851 Census.
1) Angus & Marjory (Mizzie, Marcella) and their family of 8 children departed Langal for Australia in June-July 1852. Arrived Melbourne on ship Marco Polo 18 September 1852. -Their 2 youngest children, Ranald and Jannet (Jessie), died from measles with 50 other children, at sea during the trip to Australia.
2) Our best research efforts show Allan (Angus' father) died on 5 August 1855.
3) And his mother Flora died on 10 October 1856.
4) Alexander, (Angus' brother), with wife Peggy and their family remained at Langal till his death in 1874.
Apparently your line of McDonald's occupied these houses at Langal after the departure of our McDonald line.
All pretty confusing for any researchers following their particular lines of McDonalds in this area over successive Census decades from 1841 to 1881.
Unfortunately not much is known about our original McDonalds though.
IE: Allan (1771-1855) and Flora (1781-1856) or their ancestors or siblings.
If anyone in the RootsChat fraternity has any further information on them we would dearly love to hear about it.
Regards, Tiger48
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what fantastic photos Monica, please can I ask how you managed to get onto the island? also, can I ask if Micheal & Ann McD were buried on the island? I've not been able to find out where my aunty Maryann is buried and thought she might also be one of the more recent graves on there? she died in the 1970's, and lived in the wee white cottage opposite Tioram in Dorlin named for her
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Hi Alison
We hired a small boat at Dalilea. My husband dropped me off at the jetty on St Finan's Isle and he took the boys for their first fishing experience on the loch! If you ask at Acharacle or at Dalilea, I am sure you will be able to organise something if you visit.
Not sure where best for you to check on burials on the island. When did Michael and Ann McD die? Two places you could enquire for updates could be www.moidart.org.uk and Our Lady of the Angels, the RC church at Mingarry www.rcdai.org.uk/mingarry-our-lady-of-the-angels/ I am assuming your relatives were RC?
Just been looking at your aunt's cottage. Quite the perfect spot for sure ;) www.unique-cottages.co.uk/cottages/west-coast/lochaber-ardnamurchan/ae5-mary-anns-cottage#
Sad to read now that the bell from the old ruins of altar on the isle was stolen in 2019 :'( www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-49114795 Can't see any update on whether it has been recovered.
Monica
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Hi Monica, I'm definitely going to give that a try next time I'm up there. We bumped into Dougie Cameron at Dorlin last time we were there, he told us about the bell, I don't think it has been returned/recovered yet! he wanted to hang onto my redheaded daughter!! Honestly, haha she is 21 he was a good 85 if he was a day! he was a highlight though, full of tales! Micheal died in 1933 his dad John Mcd and his mum, Mary MacNeil.
Ann McD is, I think, where you and I cross over on the Dalnabreac/Langal folks, she died in 1938. Her mum and dad were John Macissac McD and her mum Mary McD, and her siblings, John, Angus, Ronald, Catherine & Donald. There are another couple of John & Mary McD's in moidart, around the same time, but, given the christian names, I went for this lot, because, Ann & Michael's children have the same names.
I attached a picture of the plaque from the church, my gg uncles are on it, angus and donald, I also found a news clipping in the oban times with photos of them, which was pretty stunning to see them, unfortunately, it was posting their deaths in the war, but precious none the less.
My dad talks a lot about Kennedys being in the family, but... I'm at a loss where to start with this, do you know of any connections?
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I haven't come across any Kennedy connections so far on the descendants I have managed to follow from the children of Ranald McIsaac MacDonald and Ann McVarish.
Wondering if there could be any Kennedy connection for your Michael MacDonald or Mary McNeil? One other source may be the wife John McIsaac MacDonald, Mary MacDonald? I have to admit that at the time, after six months of researching these families, I was MacDonalded out and did not follow up on her :P
Just adding link to the other post here if it is of help to anyone researching these families www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=83084.0
Monica
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Micheal died in 1933 his dad John Mcd and his mum, Mary MacNeil.
What is the source for this, Alison? His marriage to Ann in 1879 shows his parents as Donald MacDonald, also a shepherd, and Mary MacDonald. I think this is him with his family in 1871:
Donald Mcdonald 48 shepherd, b. Ardnamurchan
Mary Mcdonald 49 b. North Morar
Michael Mcdonald 16 b. Kilmonivaig
Ann Mcdonald 14
John Mcdonald 12
Norman Mcdonald 10
Andrew Mcdonald 8
Donald Mcdonald 7
Archy Mcintyre 10* boarder
Address: Lindally , Kilmonivaig
In 1861, Archy shows as son of Betty McDonald and sister to Mary.
Monica
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Hey MonicaL, I'm sorry I didn't come back to you, you are absolutely correct, Michael's parents are Donald & Mary, I'm blaming my brother!
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;D