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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Devon => Topic started by: Jiminwales on Saturday 07 August 10 19:41 BST (UK)
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I am looking for William DUNN born circa 1791 in Tiverton according to the 1841 census
He was aged 50 and was a Shoemaker living in Quicks Court, Tiverton, Devon
Can Anyone help??
We are trying to establish his children and indeed when and who he married
We do know his wifes first name was Ann
Thanks in advance
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1851 census indicates that both William and Ann were born in Bradninch, Devon although it's a poor entry. I would look in the parish records for their marriage and any subsequent children. Unfortunately, it's not covered by IGI and I can't see an OPC - maybe request a look-up here. The census seems to show the youngest children born in Tiverton.
1851 Census Tiverton
William Dunn Head 70 Lab. born Bradninch Devon
Ann wife 65 born Bradninch Devon
M dau 20 Lace maker born Tiverton
C dau 18 Lace maker born Tiverton
I presume M and C are Matilda and Charlotte from the 1841 census.
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My grandfather, Robert George Dunn was born and christened in Bradninch and died and is buried in Wambrook, Somerset when my mother was about 14. That would be about 1924. Mother told me her dad was around 40 when he died, so born around 1880 (pneumonia?). In the 1911 Census he is recorded as 'waggoner on farm'. My mother is listed as a baby (b. Nov 1910) with two older sisters and wife Jane (nee Kingsland). The address was given as Cottleigh, Ottery St Mary; whether that fits with mother's statement that she was born at Tipton St John (only a few months earlier) I don't know. The only Cottleigh I have found is further east and hardly Tipton or Ottery. The middle sister told me she was born at Great Well, Ottery
Later on there was a son, William who died in his early 20s, about 1942, buried with his mother at Rockbeare.
I recall checking the Bradninch church registers in Exeter Records Office some years ago and found that a large number of young people including grandfather were christened together on Christmas Day (local tradition?). I am now 76 and another Robert, and may have lost the notes I made then. If we had the date that might help - but maybe the children were of different ages...
If any of this seems relevant, please leave a note here and I will try to find any other information that may have survived. Judging by my mother's account of their many homes I would guess that RGD was in the habit, choice or necessity, of moving on pretty regularly from farm to farm but that does not necessarily mean that his father, whoever he was, was of the same inclination.
Good hunting!
BP
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In case you were wanting a check on the information about your mother and her family (her father is George in the 1911, it helps to know) -- her birth was registered in March quarter 1911, in Honiton registration district (where they are living in 1911). Honiton covers Ottery St Mary and Cotleigh (spelled with one 't'! as it is on the 1911 census form):
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/honiton.html
I don't quite understand the 1911 census, which says "Cotleigh Ottery St Mary", since Cotleigh and Ottery St Mary are actually on opposite sides of Honiton. I think the way I see it transcribed (in two places) is probably correct (although I don't know where it came from on the form): the address was Cotleigh Cottage, Ottery St Mary. So they didn't actually live in Cotleigh, but rather in Ottery St Mary.
(I understand there is some rule against 1911 census lookups here. This isn't a lookup, as bobpen already had the information: it's me trying to sort it out for myself in order to look further back.)
In the 1881 and 1891 censuses, Robert George's parents are Robert and Ann. Father Robert was born c1852-3 in Whimple, Devon (where they are living in 1891).
Unfortunately, father Robert is not with his own family in the previous censuses. In 1871 he is a servant, and in 1861 he is with an uncle in Ottery St Mary: William Dunn, a tailor, born c1823 in Whimple. Two of Robert's sisters (at least, two nieces of William) are also there: Jane c1855 and Harriett c1859. This does suggest they had been orphaned. (It is possible that Robert c1862 was the son of unmarried parents and had his mother's surname, but since he appears to have two sisters as well, this would seem unlikely.)
In 1851, William c1823 (the uncle of Robert c1852, Robert George's father) is with his parents William, born in Uffculme, and Jane, and has brothers Robert c1834 and Thomas c1839 and sister Mary c1837, and there is a grandson John J aged 1.
The family is in Whimple in 1841, with father William c1791, a tailor, and no sons other than those shown in 1851. However, the couple in 1841 could have had other sons who had left home by then. For example, there is a Samuel Dunn c1816 nearby in Whimple who is almost certainly another son of theirs, since he is the only other Dunn in Whimple. He might be the most likely candidate for father of Robert c1852.
I might have got my Dunns muddled there, but I hope not! You would need the birth certificate of Robert George's father Robert, to follow the trail back accurately. His birth seems to be registered March quarter 1853 in St Thomas reg dist, which covered Whimple.
So -- it looks like you do descend from a William Dunn born c1791 per the 1841 census -- but a different one from the William Dunn in the opening post. Very likely related, though?
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Many thanks for all that information. I had hoped that my earlier reply might have helped jiminwales but no doubt yours will be much more relevant to his original request.
My memory may well be at fault regarding 'Robert George'; you are right he is just 'George' on the Census return so 'George Robert' may be his full name. It is Cottleigh on the return though (two t's) but Cotleigh Cottage, Ottery makes more sense. For what it is worth, my aunt (middle sister) gave me a faded photograph of her father's mother 'at Mappowders' and she recalled that he visited her there from time to time. My niece has traced a Mappowders, house or cottage, near Clyst Hydon which fits the general area but the photo gives no indication of locality.
(I paid my dues to see the record online when the details were released - a year early as I recall - so I suppose it is OK for me to quote them here?)
bp
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I think he was just called "George" because his father was already Robert. That was very common. My greatx2 grandmother was Sarah Emma but she was called "Emma" (it seems, from a census), because her mother was Sarah. Your guy's birth is registered as Robert George.
I checked that image and I'm positive there was one "t"!
For connecting up with the William 1791 in the opening post, you would probably have to go back at least two generations, i.e. to the grandfather of the two Williams, since two Williams wouldn't be brothers, no matter how much they recycled the names. ;)
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Thank you again. I have no other record except what (I think) mother told me. When I am that way I'll check his gravestone. There was no stone until my aunt wished to be buried with him and my cousins provided the stone with both names, father and daughter. I'll see what name(s) they gave him.
For what it is worth I'll try to append his signature on the survey form, I hope there's no harm in that.
bp
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Ooops -- sorry about that! Yes, it's the transcription that says "Cotleigh". That must have been taken from the book the info was compiled in, where the census people wrote the actual address, i.e. Cotleigh Cottage.
It's great to see our ancestors' own writing in the 1911 census; now if only they'd minded their spelling. ;)
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Regarding Janey's note placing George/Robert's family in Whimple it occurred to me to check the map
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&q=whimple+devon&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&biw=1280&bih=629&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&ei=SVgiUKW9IcH80QX9vYGwCw&ved=0CEYQ_AUoAg
and lo and behold, there, just a bit east of Whimple, is 'Cotleigh Wood' - a good enough reason for naming his census address as Cotleigh (Cottage)? I wonder.
And just a bit further on we have Escot Park, home, still, of the Kennaway family and where my grandmother Jane Dunn had some connection. Quite likely she was 'in service' there. I must check the details but she received a presentation on behalf of either the house or a girls' friendly society - maybe both - of a framed picture which passed to my aunt who kept it hanging over her bed, and then from her children to my sister. This is all tying in nicely and adding a great deal of human interest.
I'm only sorry that we continue to stray from JiminWales's original request. Perhaps there is a link in there somewhere that may be helpful to him.
bp (edit: missing 'r' in Regarding)
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Hi
I thought I would search for Matida Dunn d/o William and Ann
I believe she married Philip Boobier, July q 1851, Tiverton
In 1861 they are transcribed incorrectly as BOOKER
Anthony, Cornwall
Philip Boobier, 28, lab, b Tiverton
MATILDA , 28 b ditto .... Matida was 8 on the 1841 census.
Elizabeth dau 7 b ditto
Louisa dau 4 b ditto
Philip son 2 b Exminster
By 1871 they are back in Tiverton living in Chapel St
Philip Boobier 38 lab
Matilda 38
Elizabeth dau 17
Lucy dau 14
Samuel son 3 b Plymouth
1881
Higher Crt, Tiverton
Philip Boobier, 49 railway lab
Matilda 48 lace mender
Samuel 14 lace hand ,b ?alton Heights, devon
they have 2 lodgers with them
Charles Wood, 21 and Thomas Bowerman, 24 both railway labs
1891 they are back a Chapel Street, Tiv.
Philip Boobier 57 excavator/plate
Matilda 57 lace mender
Samuel son, mar, 23 smith
Elizabeth dau-in-law, mar 21 laundress b Bampton
John grandson 1 b Tiverton
By 1901 Philip and Matilda Boobier (both 69) are living with their son, Samuel and Family at 90 Bampton street, Tiv.
Samuel and Elizabeth's children: John 11, Samuel 8, Florence 6 and Matilda 3.
Matilda Boobier bc 1833 dies in the sept q 1906, Tiverton.
Philip Boobier bc 1832 dies dec q 1909, Tiverton.
Will work on the other children to see if there are any clues as to their mother's maiden name.
deb :)
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Deb - coincidence?? You posted long ago in this Boobier thread that has recently been resurrected. ;)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,288228.0.html
I know I did some Boobier investigating at another board some years ago ... will see whether I can find it.
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But Deb ... the household in reply #1:
William Dunn Head 70 Lab. born Bradninch Devon
Ann wife 65 born Bradninch Devon
M dau 20 Lace maker born Tiverton
C dau 18 Lace maker born Tiverton
I presume M and C are Matilda and Charlotte from the 1841 census.
I'm pretty sure I ruled them out as being the William in question in the OP (reply #3) - ? -
The family is in Whimple in 1841, with father William c1791, a tailor, and no sons other than those shown in 1851. However, the couple in 1841 could have had other sons who had left home by then. For example, there is a Samuel Dunn c1816 nearby in Whimple who is almost certainly another son of theirs, since he is the only other Dunn in Whimple. He might be the most likely candidate for father of Robert c1852.
I might have got my Dunns muddled there, but I hope not! You would need the birth certificate of Robert George's father Robert, to follow the trail back accurately. His birth seems to be registered March quarter 1853 in St Thomas reg dist, which covered Whimple.
Without the marriage/birth certificates of Robert born c1852-3 in Whimple, Devon, the father of Robert George, it isn't really possible to go back any further with any assurance.
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Hi
I will reread ...I must have missed that ...you ruling them out, that is.
The info for Matilda Boobier nee Dunn fits with the 1841 age!
I just noticed in the 1841 census that there is another person in the same house/another room?
1841
William Dunn 50
Ann 50
Henry 15
Thomas 15
Matilda 8
Charlotte 6
//
Elizabeth Hole 50 Lacehand Yes, born in county
I wonder if she is related to the family somehow?
deb
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Robert George Dunn, our subject, was the son of Robert and Ann. The problem is that Robert Sr does not appear in censuses with his parents. In 1861 he is with an uncle William.
In 1851, William c1823 (the uncle of Robert c1852, Robert George's father) is with his parents William, born in Uffculme, and Jane, and has brothers Robert c1834 and Thomas c1839 and sister Mary c1837, and there is a grandson John J aged 1. (By 1861, young John is also a servant, a carter in Whimple, so no clue to his parents either.)
So the parents of Robert (father of Robert George) are unknown w/o his birth/marriage certificates.
But his grandparents (the parents of his uncle William) are apparently William and Jane Dunn in the 1851 census. So not the William and Ann with daughter Matilda.
FamilySearch shows William Dunn and Jane having children baptised in Whimple:
William 1822 -- uncle of Robert who was the father of Robert George
James 1825
Elisabeth 1828
Henry 1831 (died 1833)
Robert 1834
Mary 1836
James or Robert, or a son whose baptism isn't shown, would be the father of Robert who was the father of Robert George. Or Robert George's mother could have been an unmarried daughter of William and Jane, for that matter.
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There's a tree on ancestry which has William and Ann Dunn having another child : William Dunn b 1818 died 1869, Married Lydia Stribling in 1837.
Marriage cert states William is s/o William Dunn, Shoemaker.
they also have the 1851 census for William jnr ..states he's born Collumpton ... humm!
The tree also has Matilda marrying to Philip Boobier ...yay! Maybe the marriage cert should be ordered to confirm this.
No one seems to know what happened to henry and Thomas ...i wonder if they emigrated?
I see a marriage for Charlotte possibly to Henry Heard. I Find her in 1861 married but lodging with an Elizabeth Poole. Can't spot her after this ...will keep looking!
deb
red post ..will read
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Hi janey
I thought our subject was the family of William and Ann Dunn as posted by Jim not Robert George Dunn posted by Bobpen ..or am I going insane? LOL :)
I am looking for William DUNN born circa 1791 in Tiverton according to the 1841 census
He was aged 50 and was a Shoemaker living in Quicks Court, Tiverton, Devon
Can Anyone help??
We are trying to establish his children and indeed when and who he married
We do know his wifes first name was Ann
Thanks in advance
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The thing is ... the OP says:
"I am looking for William DUNN born circa 1791 in Tiverton according to the 1841 census"
But what he is really looking for is the ancestors of Robert George Dunn, birth registered 1878 in Tiverton, son of Robert Dunn, probably birth registered 1853 in St Thomas. (See the details in his reply #2.)
The line back from them does not seem to go to William and Ann in 1841.
This was Jim's hypothesis as to who the great-grandparents of Robert George Dunn were.
But every indication is that they were not William and Ann, they were William and Jane -- this household in Whimple in 1841:
William Dunn aged 50
Jane Dunn aged 40
William 15
Robert 6
Mary 4
Thomas 1
This William was a tailor, as was the uncle William with whom Robert 1853, father of Robert George 1878, was living in 1871.
So while the William and Ann couple may be related, their family is not likely going to help identify Robert George's.
Only the birth/marriage certificates of Robert 1853 will do that.
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Ahhhhhh I didn't realise that as the first post was just asking for the 1841 family ... now I feel silly! ::)
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Oh aargh, you're not going insane. Or silly! I wasn't paying attention! Yes, the OP and reply 3 were written by two different people!
The OP dates from 2010 and jiminwales never returned to the thread.
We turned to bobpen's query when he added to the thread.
Since jiminwales has never been back, it might not be useful to go back to working on the question in the OP. ;)
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LOL ...Thank goodness I'm not going mad .... so Bobpen is going to order the birth/marriage cert?
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Oh My
There's a tree on ancestry
Robert George Dunn b 1878 s/o Robert Dunn 1853 and Ann Blackmore 1849
Robert Dunn 1852 s/o James Dunn 1825 and Mary Ann Davey 1815
have we found a James Dunn 1825 yet?
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I dunn-o! We did chat by PM and he told me some lovely (and sad) stories about the family. I think I owe him a reply ...
I expect he'll come back to the thread -- and I hope he does order the certificates, just not to leave us in suspense. ;)
Maybe William (wife Ann) and William (wife Jane) were first cousins, with a grandfather William ...
Oops, just saw your next message -- Yup -- the baptism list in one of my last messages:
FamilySearch shows William Dunn and Jane having children baptised in Whimple:
William 1822 -- uncle of Robert who was the father of Robert George
James 1825
Elisabeth 1828
Henry 1831 (died 1833)
Robert 1834
Mary 1836
;)
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ooo yay ..just saw that ....
James is with his family in 1871
Whimple
James Dunn 46 farm lab b Whimple
Mary Ann wife 56 b ?
Jane dau 16 b Whimple
Harrit (sic) dau 12 b ditto ... could she be the niece with Uncle William in 1861
William Davy G.son 11 b ditto
Frederick J Davy Gson 2 b ditto
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James Dunn and Mary Ann Davey -- marriage reg Mar 1855 St Thomas -- Robert was born before that!
(Even if I have the wrong Robert Dunn birth reg, his census info always shows him born 1852/3).
So I might doubt the info about his parentage. Getting the 1853 birth cert would still be useful to see whether it looks like him.
Daughter Jane in the 1871 census, birth seems to have been reg Sep 1854 in St Thomas, though ...
edit -- I have got to get some work finished, I'll look in to see what more you might come up with, and we'll watch for Bob!
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Humm
They have the marriage to Mary Ann Davey as July 1846, Exeter.
I can't see it!
Hopefully Bob will return!
deb :)
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Doncha just love Ancestry trees ...
Wishful thinking there, methinks. ;)
(I did check, and there's no Robert Davey birth around the right time that might have accounted for him as a pre-marriage birth.)
There is a Sep quarter 1846 marriage in Exeter, possibly (as one of four possible brides) to Mary Ann WILSON. No reason to connect that to our James Dunn that I can see.
And so far, no good reason to make James the father of Robert, either!
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I saw that too ...I even checked to see if possibly it was a second marriage for her as she was 10 years older than James... Can't see a Mary Ann Davey = Mr. Wilson.
Argghhhh ;D
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Wow, Ladies! You've got my head spinning. I hope it's clear that I had no wish to hijack JiminWales's query and only threw in my little bit in case it helped him. Since then, things have got somewhat exciting - and who am I to want it oherwise? Warm thanks to you both.
I had no plans to seek a certificate, Deb. The truth is, I'm very green at this
Just to keep the pot boiling, here is a photo of grandfather's grave at Wambrook, near Chard, Somerset, taken a few days ago. Until my aunt died and wished to be buried with him there was no stone and he was actually the first to be buried in the extended churchyard which is distinguished with a low ridge. The church contains a bier on which he was conveyed from the cottage where he died in Higher Wambrook.
Bob
(edit: I've reduced the already small photo to conform with Forum rules)
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That's lovely, Bob!
I've been looking at other trees on ancestry .... one seems to have a lot of detail:
Someone has the names of James Dunn b 1825, his parents, William and Jane, which would be Robert Dunn b 1852/3, his grandparents.
Father:William Dunn 1796 – d 1871
Christened 22 May 1796, Whitestone, Devon s/o David Dunn (chr 19 April 1772, Down St Mary, s/o Honour Dunn , b 1774) and Mary Pearce (chr 23 Oct 1774 Whitestone, d/o William Pearce and Sarah Cousins)
David Dunn = Mary Pearce 25 May 1794 Whitestone
and
Jane Lovell 1796 – 1879 b 1796 Culmstock, d July 1879 Whimple ..no parents for her on tree.
William Dunn = Jane Lovell
3 Dec 1818, Feniton
children of William and Jane that we have:
William 1822 -- uncle of Robert who was the father of Robert George
James 1825
Elisabeth 1828
Henry 1831 (died 1833)
Robert 1834
Mary 1836
the tree has two more:
John Dunn 1819 – 1886
Thomas Dunn 1840 – 1917
deb
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In case Bob wants to see the trees -- Anc'y trees are all mirrored at
http://www.mundia.com
Sign up, search trees ("Find People" button), send private messages, all free.
Most people who have trees at Anc'y don't know that Anc'y reproduces them at Mundia;
there's some tiny little fine-print notice someplace about this.
Back a ways, I noted:
In 1861 Robert (father of Robert George) is with an uncle in Ottery St Mary:
William Dunn, a tailor, born c1823 in Whimple. Two of Robert's sisters (at least,
two nieces of William) are also there: Jane c1855 and Harriett c1859.
Search trees for Jane Lovell born 1796 Culmstock Devon and there is a tree that shows Robert 1853
with sisters Jane and Harriet as children of James -- it does show James married twice, once to Sarah Ann Coles
and once to Mary Ann Davey, although it indicates that all the children were to the Davey marriage.
The only James Dunn + Sarah Ann Coles marriage was in 1884 in St Thomas; that would be a second marriage.
In 1861 in Whimple, James shows as born c1818, ag lab, and Mary Ann as born c1826. Hm.
Her age in 1871 does look like 56, but that could be an error in transcribing from the original household schedule.
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Oh My
There's a tree on ancestry
Robert George Dunn b 1878 s/o Robert Dunn 1853 and Ann Blackmore 1849
Robert Dunn 1852 s/o James Dunn 1825 and Mary Ann Davey 1815
have we found a James Dunn 1825 yet?
Thanks Deb
This is the photo of RGD's mother, so Ann Blackmore, that auntie gave me, saying that her father visited her at 'Mappowders'. I now have doubts as there is no Mappowders anywhere near. Maypowders, near Aunk (Clyst Hydon/Clyst St Lawrence, Devon) fits quite nicely.
Bob
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In case Bob wants to see the trees -- Anc'y trees are all mirrored at
http://www.mundia.com
Sign up, search trees ("Find People" button), send private messages, all free.
Most people who have trees at Anc'y don't know that Anc'y reproduces them at Mundia;
there's some tiny little fine-print notice someplace about this.
Whoops! I have a strong suspicion that my brother in law is the author/owner of the Ancestry tree! I have copies of his work and at first sight he knows something we don't know and doesn't know something that we do. (smile). I'll sort it out and report again.
Incidentally, he has yet another date for grandad's death - 1926 according to the register at Chard.
Bob (refer my photo of great grandma - RGD's mother - above)
(last line edited 22 Oct 12)
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(back from 3 weeks absence, cert arrived just after we left)
I now have a copy of Robert's birth certificate. It doesn't seem to add anything to what Deb and Janey reported above.
"No. 199,
fifth [I think] February 1853 [could be 1855] Whimple,
Robert,
boy,
father James Dunn,
mother Mary Ann Dunn, nee Davy [? -ey],
father's occ Labourer,
informant X her mark Mary Ann Dunn mother Whimple,
registered nineteenth March 1853 [pretty clear that time],
registrar Henry Westcott"
So now I need James but don't know his age or place of birth and aren't we getting back to around the time before compulsory registration?
Bob
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I'll just quote myself and Deb from previous posts:
FamilySearch shows William Dunn and Jane having children baptised in Whimple:
William 1822 -- uncle of Robert who was the father of Robert George
> James 1825
Elisabeth 1828
Henry 1831 (died 1833)
Robert 1834
Mary 1836
James is with his family in 1871 - Whimple
> James Dunn 46 farm lab b Whimple
Mary Ann wife 56 b ?
Jane dau 16 b Whimple
Harrit (sic) dau 12 b ditto ... could she be the niece with Uncle William in 1861
William Davy G.son 11 b ditto
Frederick J Davy Gson 2 b ditto
And I think that is consistent with the sensible family trees on line.
The marriage to Mary Ann Davey was in 1855 in St Thomas reg dist.
Robert 1853 never appears with parents James and Mary Ann in a census -- in 1861 he is with his uncle William.
Making sense? ;)
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Can anyone tell me when William Dunn's (b 1791) father David Dunn died? Or when his mother Mary died? Also has anyone seen the marriage register of David & Mary, does it state his occupation?
I am trying to figure out if I have my David Dunn confused with this one. I also have him baptised 19.4.1792 at Down St Mary to Honor Dunn but my David married Ann Rice 1801 at Plympton St Mary. Could this be a second marriage? David & Ann had 9 children, two daughters reflecting his mother's name Honor.
John baptised 26.12.1802 at Plympton St Mary
Robert Andrews Dunn baptised 9.9.1804 Underwood Plympton St Mary
Honor born July 1805 buried 6.7.1805
David baptised 8.11.1807 Plympton St Mary
Sally Ann Andrews Dunn baptised 13.10.1811 Plympton St Mary
Honor baptised 26.9.1813 Underwood Plympton St Mary
Richard born Underwood 12.1.1816 baptised 28.1.1816 Plympton St Mary
Mary Ann baptised 6.4.1817 Underwood Plympton St Mary
Elizabeth baptised Down St Mary 1.7.1820, (another 10.7.1821)
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Unfortunately for the researcher, there are cousin marriages in the Boobier tree...kind of makes for hard work matching the families together.