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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Suttonrog on Friday 06 August 10 13:35 BST (UK)
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I am having an old bible rebound and this scrap of velum was used to reinforce the spine.
If it is comtemporary with the Bible it is Elizabethan.
My questions are:
1. Can anyone date it?
2. Can anyone confirm it is Latin?
3. I know it is too small to decipher but can anyone make out any words?
Thanks
Rog
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No idea sorry, but I'm hoping it was a secret message hidden down the spine? :o
Did your 'rebinder' tell you it was used as reinforcement? I suppose nothing would have been wasted so it makes sense that a bit of scrap was used in the spine. I'll be very interested to see if anyone can decipher it.
Are you saying that the bible is Elizabethan? :o
If so, it's a bit of a shame that it's being rebound - isn't there any way it can be restored instead? Maybe a museum could advise on the best thing to do so the integrity of the bible isn't compromised.
Is this something you bought or inherited? Either way, lucky you! :)
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It does seem common practice though. I also have an old family Bible that is literally falling apart at the seams. There's a reinforcing strip down the spine with some quite obscure writing on it - nothing as clear as this though! The text appears to be in Latin but is extremely worn and faded.
Be interesting to follow other peoples thoughts on this.
Tony
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Thanks your your comments.
The bible is a first edition English 1576 printing of a Breeces bible from Ebay. It was all there but in terrible condition and falling apart.
When I say it is being rebound - I should have being expertly restored using all the original bits. It has takene 18 months to get to putting it back together.
Rog
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I might be being stupid or naive but are you sure you have it the right way round?
Only say that because there seem to be quite a few swirls which looks like 'y's back to front ???
Josey
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Thanks your your comments.
The bible is a first edition English 1576 printing of a Breeces bible from Ebay. It was all there but in terrible condition and falling apart.
When I say it is being rebound - I should have being expertly restored using all the original bits. It has takene 18 months to get to putting it back together.
Rog
How fascinating Rog! And it's very beautiful - thanks for showing us the picture. I'm glad you're having it done properly. ;D
(Was it expensive? ;))
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OK OK I am stupid...
It does look more likely as originally posted. Sorry.
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I am having an old bible rebound and this scrap of velum was used to reinforce the spine.
If it is comtemporary with the Bible it is Elizabethan.
My questions are:
1. Can anyone date it?
2. Can anyone confirm it is Latin?
3. I know it is too small to decipher but can anyone make out any words?
Can't help Im afraid, but posted to follow as very interesting
Cas
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Josey,
You are not being stupid - in my viewer it is the right way round but it has mirrored. Trying again.
Ruskie - it was cheap as it was posted in the wrong area and badly desribed. They are a fortune now.
Rog
Sorry - it was the right way round
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(Just book-marking !)
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That's very lucky Rog - you must have been meant to have it. :)
(When you have a chance do you mind showing us a couple of pictures from inside?)
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The Breeches Bible was so called because of the verse in Genesis about Adam and Eve sewing together fig leaves to make themselves 'breeches' ...
I think it precedes the King James version by ?? 50 years ?
I must Google !
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I think it may be partly in Latin and partly in English.
Top line second word; Johanus for John
Top line about half way along; backward comma looks like g means "and"
2nd line left hand end;obid =? died, then a name, then "Husbandman ? in England
3rd line left hand end IIj or LLj a number, then something, then ?monies, then Anglia
Just wondering if it could be part of a will?
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Yep ! It the other name for the Geneva Bible ... 1560; King James was 1611.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Bible
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Thanks Alpine,
That gives me someting to go on.
Lydart is correct. The protestants left England during the reign of Queen Mary and retranslated the Bible in Geneva from the original Greek and Hebrew texts. They cut out all the flowery language they put in some very basic words like breeches. It was also the first bible to have verse numbers.
This Bible was printed in very large numbers in Geneva from 1560. After the death of Mary, Elizabeth gave a warrant to Robert Barker to print the bible in England from 1576.
I'm sorry but I don't have any pictures of the inside pages. I will post some when I get the bible back.
Rog
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Top line about half way along; backward comma looks like g means "and"
Is that the original ampersand?
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Top line about half way along; backward comma looks like g means "and"
Is that the original ampersand?
I got that little gem from my family history mag which arrived today, so I don't know what it's called as the article doesn't name it - sorry.
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& & & !!!!!!
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For those who asked what the bible was like inside - here is the title page.
Spelling has changed a little since then.
Hope it is readable at this resolution.
Rog
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That's just fantastic - I like the "most profitable annotations upon all the harde places"...and the printers address !
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I wonder if 'Powles Churchyard at the Sign of the Tigers Head' could still be located in London somewhere ?
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And here is Genesis, Chapter 3.
Verse 8 is the "breeches" quote with all the "most profitable annotations upon all the harde places" in the margins.
Rog
I think Powles Churchyard was near St Pauls and would have gone in the great fire
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I think the name at the top may be Johanna rather than Johannus. It’s in Latin, and I think it’s part of a will.
I think the first five words at the start of the third line may translate roughly as ‘ten pounds of lawful English money’. The words at the beginning of the fourth line look like reference to a date, the somethingth (..imo) day(die) of October(Octob[r]i) perhaps? And about the middle of that line is what appears to be ‘Jacobi anno regni’ which doesn’t make any sense actually, since if it’s a reference to King James it can’t be earlier than 1603, but it all looks far earlier.
The two words at the end of the fourth line look like a reference to a place - ‘Apud’ which I think roughly means ‘at’ and then a place name ending in ‘..mpton’
The third,fourth and fifth words on the last legible line look like ‘in vitae suae’, ‘in his/her life’. If not a will then a legal document of some sort. Great fun, very intriguing.
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I hadn't seen the new images when I posted. As someone just wrote, Paul's Churchyard was the area around old St Paul's, the building that went in the Great Fire and was replaced by Wren's church. Paul's churchyard was the centre of the bookselling and publishing trades in Elizabethan times. The church itself was used more like a business centre than a place of worship, and was a popular meeting place. They even put job ads up on the doors I believe.
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If you can get access to the Dictionary of National Biography there's an entry on Christopher Barker, the publisher. He came from Yorkshire near Doncaster, b. 1528/9, died 1599. Here's a bit about his interest in bible printing (which was very lucrative work);
"... Barker's real interest as a publisher lay in the potentially lucrative royal printing patents...The most coveted patent was for the Bible, but the queen's printer Richard Jugge had an effective monopoly on English bibles as long as his patron Archbishop Matthew Parker was in power. Three weeks after Parker died on 17 May 1575, the Stationers' Company effectively ended Jugge's Bible monopoly and gave other stationers permission to print the officially sanctioned Bishops' Bible. At the same time Barker shrewdly went to the privy council and obtained a patent for the Geneva Bible, which had never been printed in England under Parker but which had been printed overseas by a fellow draper, Rowland Hall. However, Barker promised Jugge that he would not print anything ‘hurtfull or prejudiciall’ to Jugge's rights (Stationers' Company, liber A, fol. 27).
Barker quickly published an edition of the Geneva New Testament later in 1575, printed by Thomas Vautrollier since Barker had no press of his own yet. By early 1576 Barker had obtained a press and printed a new revision of the Geneva New Testament by Laurence Tomson, based on Theodore Beza's Latin translation. Tomson dedicated the translation to his employer, Sir Francis Walsingham, Elizabeth's secretary of state, and there is considerable evidence that Walsingham was Barker's patron as well. The Tomson New Testament contains a device prominently featuring the tiger's head from Walsingham's crest, which Barker was to use in many later books, and Walsingham's coat of arms also appears several times in the volume. Furthermore, in 1576 Barker leased a new shop in Paternoster Row at the sign of the Tiger's Head, where he sold his editions of the Tomson New Testament and the complete Geneva Bible. This property, which adjoined Barker's original shop on Pissing Alley, had previously been occupied by the draper–stationers Nicholas England and John Wight, and Barker occupied it until his retirement in 1588."
Glad he moved business premises. I must say 'at the Sign of the Tiger's Head' looks a lot better on a bible title-page than 'at Pissing Alley'.
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It was common practice right up to the early 20th century to reinforce bindings with scraps of parchment or paper, sometimes old, sometimes contemporary. The script on this bit looks earlier than Elizabethan - I'm thinking 14th century, but I'm no expert!
Very nice, Rog!
Prue
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You never know, the scrap may turn out to be more valuable than the Bible !
Prue ... how should it be preserved if its (maybe) 14th century ?? Obviously NOT laminated !
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Just got back in to catch up.
Thanks very much Slam - it helps a lot.
Pru - thanks for suggesting it may be 14th century - I'll go digging for some comparisons.
Rog
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With the suggestion that it's 14th C in mind, is the very first word - 1407 Se(ptember)?
I'd be tempted to send a copy of the photo to the County Archives and ask for their opinion.
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Thanks for the photos of the inside pages Rog!
It's all very intriguing and exciting! ;D
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Prue ... how should it be preserved if its (maybe) 14th century ?? Obviously NOT laminated !
I mentioned 14th C because I worked on a parchment once from that period that looks very similar in terms of the script. It was one of quite a few that someone bought at auction - all the same age, all the same kind of thing (legal documents), all the same sort of size (about 25 cm long by 15 high). My guess is that Rog's example is similar, but as I said, I'm no expert!
As for preservation, parchment is very resilient stuff. It can survive in much better condition than paper of the same age. If it's not got anything stuck to it and it's not particularly damaged, just keeping it in a plastic sleeve will be fine.
Cheers
Prue
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P.S. Having found the paleography website I was looking around for all afternoon (on and off)...perhaps it is 15th century. This cursive Document Hand looks very similar:
http://medievalwriting.50megs.com/scripts/examples/cursive7.htm
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If it is 14th century, I just had an exciting thought - it could be part of an old cartulary that's been discarded after the monastery was taken over. Reformation loot! Elizabethan and Jacobean antiquarians were always moaning about how these ms. had been trashed - one said when he was a young man he'd seen local gentry using ripped-out pages to clean out the barrels of their guns. Lots of them probably were bought up as scrap by printers.
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I agree it looks very like 14th or 15th century writing, but think it says "Jacobi nunc Regis" pretty clearly in line 4, and suggest that it may be a scrap of some government document, as they did tend to retain handwriting styles over long periods.
I also agree with Slam that it looks like "Johanna" and wonder if the first line reads
? Johanna Fillere ? vid[ua] executrix test[amen]ti & vltime voluntatis Roberti Fillere defuncti
and the second line begins
? in com[itatum] Bedf[ordensem] husbandman ...
If one accepts these ideas for a moment, then it opens the possibility that the parties named might be related to these I found through the LDS site Family Search:
ROBERT FYLLER
Christened 26 Dec 1600, Maulden, Bedford, England
and
ROB FYLLER
Married 2 Oct 1600 to JOAN ARNOLD, Maulden, Bedford, England.
Both are stated to be extracted records
Only a speculation, of course, I expect someone can shoot it down :)
Roger
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No, exciting! It looks like the truncated word before Com Beds could be '...den' which would agree with Maulden. I certainly think you've nailed the first line. Perhaps it's beginning to look less like an actual will than a legal record of a follow-up dispute to one? (Where there's a will, there's a row).
I think line three starts 'decem libri legl(-) monete Angli' and the last line is something like '--- Rob[er]tus in vita sua. & p[re]dcta Johanna post i[m]p[ri]mis Rob[er]ti mortem lice...' Post imprimis makes no sense though!
I still feel it's early. I was trying to get round the Jacobi word by wondering if it was a reference to a particular date like the feast of St James: but that's 25 July, which doesn't agree with the '..esimo die Octobr' mentioned immediately before.
I don't know much about legal records. I've seen only one Jacobean will in Latin. I've seen a document relating to a legal dispute about a 1622 will and that was entirely in Latin too, but it was in secretary hand. Although as it was copied into the register of wills I suppose it would be: the original may have come from a government office using a different hand entirely.
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Slam, I hadn't thought of the start of line two being Maulden truncated to "...den". That does seem a possibility, and would support my thinking.
I've felt all along that it didn't seem to read like an actual will, but rather as something legal deriving from a will, in which case the said will would have had to have reached probate in order to raise a legal issue. So presumably the probate and the will itself would have to have been recorded somewhere?
It could well make the interpretation and/or dating of this slip of vellum easier if the original will could be found.
Roger
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There's a 1582/3 Star Chamber case featuring a Mr Fyller - sorry no more details.
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There are references online to October 23rd being the feast day of St. James.
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Nothing to add but a fascinating thread that I want to follow!!
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Thoroughly agree with gordon5.
I have learned a lot from this particular forum but it is this posting which I have found one of the most interesting and facinating to follow.
Thank you to all who are sharing their thoughts and expertise.
Hephzibah
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It is a really interesting piece of parchment and I hope we can take it further, but I seem to have run into the sand. I went searching the Bedford archives online but could find no reference to either Robert or Joan Filler, and no wills in their names (or variants ) at the National Archives.
Also, if this is a scrap from the period of King James or later, that presumably means the bible has been re-bound since it was first published. Anyone know anything about dating bindings??...
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It could well have been rebound at a later date.
Although I think that the boards and spine are original the brasswork and clasps are not. There is paterning on the leather that the brass obscures. The brass is identical to that seen on other Barker Bibles that have Psalmes or Concordances dating to upto 1630 so the vellum could have been inserted at any time between 1576 and 1630?
Here is one dated 1610
Slam - thanks for all your work.
Rog
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It's lovely Rog. Are you a collector?
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Fascinating pictures Rog, you're very lucky. And this isn't 'work', this is fun!
Do you think the word next to ‘Jacobi’ might possibly be ‘anno’? Then we might have a phrase going ‘..Jacobi anno Regno Angliae sexto Apud (?)ytlington’ - ‘in the sixth year of the reign of James of England at (?)ytlington’. At any rate, I think that’s what the Latin might mean.
Since James was James VI of Scotland from being a baby, I have seen documents that carefully describe him as ‘of Scotland the sixth and of England the first’: but I can’t see any word that looks like ‘Scotiae’ so I think that’s not what’s being referred to here. Perhaps they’re dating some significant legal event connected with the payment of 10 pounds lawful money and specifying it happened in 1609 - the sixth year of the reign of King James . And since he was ruling in Scotland a lot earlier, they had to say ‘in the sixth year of the reign of James of England’ to avoid confusion.
By the way, I just googled place names and there’s a Shillington, Beds about 10 kms. from Maulden . It seems in the 17th and 18th centuries the name was spelled... ‘Shytlington’. Then in the 19th century the inhabitants very naturally changed it. ;)
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Hi Rog,
I tried all sorts of coloured filters to highlight decipher this document.
It appears that it might be written in very old English and some words do make sense.
It appears to be a Marriage Certificate of some sort.
Hope this helps.
Kind regards
George
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Once again I thank you all for the "fun" that your are putting in.
Welcome to the thread George and thanks.
I'm not a collector. I just bought the bible quite cheaply and put in a lot of research to see if the restoration was worthwhile. As Slam says it is fun.
There was a family history sheet inside that I managed to track down to a Family in Yetminster in Dorset - but the line died out - all celibate churchmen and spinsters at the end.
Rog
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So cut to the chase Rog, how much did you pay for it, and what's it worth even without the vellum scrap?
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So cut to the chase Rog, how much did you pay for it, and what's it worth even without the vellum scrap?
That's the question I'd like answered too. ;D
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Maybe he's not saying ... there may be a Mrs Suttonrog who would have a fit if she knew what he spent !
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OK here goes - and divorce to follow.
The bible cost £260
The restoration cost is indeterminate, well into 4 figures and climbing until it is finished.
How much is it worth? I don't know but I would be disappointed if was not close to 5 figures
I have never seen a complete copy in it's original binding, even in the British library. All the pages are there and unusually all the sections are of a contemporary date.
The sections are:
Metrical psalms, Godly prayers, Concordance, List of names, Old Testament, Apocrypha, New Testament,
Book of psalms with the music, For those that have never seen the last snap enclosed
If you want to see these old bibles try http://www.greatsite.com/ancient-rare-bibles-books/gold.html
They have a 1583 much larger version listed at $49,900 - of course they will never get that
Rog
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Wow !
And even more WOW ... they have a 1794 Hieroglyphical Bible for $5,000 ... I have one ! Unfortunately mine is VERY tatty ... but still, I have one !
Thanks Rog for all this info and the link ... I'm really enjoying this thread !
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OK here goes - and divorce to follow.
The bible cost £260
That's a good buy Rog. I can't comment on the restoration costs though ... ;)
I have seen people selling individual pages on Ebay - unsure if they were complete and the seller thought they'd get more if they destroyed the book and sold indivual pages or if they were incomplete and in bits anyway ....
Anyway it's a lovely thing. I want one!
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You are right Ruskie.
I wanted to save it from being broken up. With 1450 pages, each selling on Ebay from $5-10 each you can see the financial force behind it, but I think it is criminal if a book can be saved.
Rog
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For those of you who have booked marked this thread - a liitle news.
ITV have been filming at my binder's for House Gifts with Lawrence LLewellyn Bowen, and the bible was centre stage. When I know when it is being aired (due in October) I will post (that is if the bible makes it into the final cut)
Rog
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Thanks for the info Rog. Was wondering what was happening and which Psalm you were now singing!!!
Hephzibah
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Hi all
Also enjoying this thread. Love the bible ;)
It would make one heck of a House Gift! Hope the bible makes the cut.
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For those of you who have booked marked this thread - a liitle news.
ITV have been filming at my binder's for House Gifts with Lawrence LLewellyn Bowen, and the bible was centre stage. When I know when it is being aired (due in October) I will post (that is if the bible makes it into the final cut)
Rog
That is SO exciting Rog! ;D Thanks for letting us know. Please also let us know when the programme airs. (I'm in AUstralia so will have to find some sneaky means to download it. ;)
(I also like LLB. ;D)
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OK here goes - and divorce to follow.
Know the feeling about that type of thing Rog, As many others have said, fascinating. I have a complete transcript of a Star Chamber case from 1595, and the writing in that looks very similar to that on the vellum fragment. Perhaps if it is from around the turn of the 14th/15th century written script changed little over the following 200 years?
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So was this whole thread a piece of viral marketing for "House Gifts with Lawrence LLewellyn Bowen", I feel so used, ....now I have to seriously consider any future membership as merely the mention on LLB is giving me nightmares.........
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I have to agree with you Peggasus about LLB - maybe I can edit him out in photoshop.
Rog