RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Finley 1 on Thursday 05 August 10 12:48 BST (UK)
-
NOW I have just received a marriage cert for my C.A.Green who I had presumed 'base born' as no birth cert found ... he was born in 1835 Brixworth and named Annis Marshall Green......
Following him through the census... he changes his name a couple of times... he is in 1841 as Annis Green and then I found him in as Annis Green in Hinckley .. after which he is down as Charles Annis Green....
Now the 1851 he states born in Middlesex Harrow... so I wasnt convinced it was him... but in the next house ... is his future wife...
I think he may have altered things to suit his circumstances... Or I have two totally different people.....
ANYWAY this marriage cert shows a FATHER !!!!! and he is named as Thomas Green SURGEON!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Did he make this up or is there such a person... How do I find out .........Or can I find out.
Xin ::) ??? :P
-
As you probably know there were no birth certificates before July 1837 :)
Stan
-
if he was base born the Marshall could be his mothers maiden name?
-
you need to find his christening
http://www.friendsofbrixworthchurch.org.uk/The%20Church.htm
-
Looking at the original Parish Records it states.
I have this from a previous search.. so
thats what set me on to Annis Green
Brixworth Parish Church Baptism
Pg. 94. No. 750
Decr 25th 1835
Annis Marshall Son of ELizabeth Green Brixworth Illegitimate.
xin
-
Hi
Whoever his father was he would unlikely to have been Thomas Green - Thomas somebody else perhaps or the whole thing could have been fabricated with Thomas the name of another maternal male relative. He gave Green on his marriage because for propritey's sake on his marriage he didn't want it to show he was illegitimate by giving another surname for his father.
The evidence shows he changed his name and his place of birth on the 1851 census (unless an error) so it that might suggest the information he gives on documents may not necessarily be reliable. His father might have been a surgeon, or he might not. He might have been called Thomas or he might not.
Unless his mother sought maintenance payments for the child (and there may have been a private arrangement or no payments were sought) through the Petty Sessions (magistrated court) and those records have survived - Petty Sessions records don't always, you really don't have anything to go on to search for his father. This is an example where some of the Petty Sessions records were covered by the county newspaper and have been transcribed (not many transcriptions around)
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LIN/bastardy_1849.html
Regards
Valda
-
UUUHm I have given this man an awful lot of lee-way so far cos he is my g..g grandfather..........and in need of my respect............. ::) ;)
But I am beginning to think he was a 'serial fabricator'........... for want of a stronger word...
I presumed he had to marry in a hurry cos first child born in 1857 ... but he married in Jan and the child was born in December.... so no.... Maybe he chose Thomas because his future wife's father was Thomas... but WHY SURGEON!!!? :o ::) maybe just to impress...
I expected to receive the cert with no father named.. and would have settled with that.. But this is very interesting...
He was a little fib.... I think.... ???
I now have all of (more than likely correct) ...Elizabeth Greens details... and due to the fact that in the 1871 or 61 CAG has a sister visiting him with the name of Burford... I guess all that is correct.
So his mother was Elizabeth Green daughter of William born Northampton... eventually married a Burford... and moved down to Kent area.....*****
And his father well who knows... will rest on that for a while.. unless suddenley someone comes up with a Thomas Green surgeon from Northampton area... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
thanks for all input and help
xin
ps ******So CAG must have been in touch with her .. otherwise his sister would not have visited him .....?
-
Hi
I'm sure there will be Thomas Greens in Northamptonshire who were connected to the medical profession. Green is a common surname. However because Charles Annis Green was the illegitimate son of Elizabeth Green, they won't be his father unless in the unlikely event he was also called Green. Charles took his mother's surname not his father's.
Regards
Valda
-
Yep understand that... so its on the back boiler for a week or two... I have all the relevant certs now to give some kind of confirmation to who his mother was -- So that is a lot more than I had hoped..
Thanks EVERYONE who has helped me (even tho I am loooooosing it)
Xin
-
Hi,
Have you sorted out your issues ? I have this information which probably wont help !!
Will of Thomas GREEN of Minster Lovell
Probate 1 May 1802
Source: TNA no. IR26/398
Summary.
Probate record re Thomas Green of Minster Lovell, yeoman
Name Relationship [Comments] or Major Bequests
Thomas GREEN Minster Lovell
Elizabeth GREEN Daughter (Exec) [no surname given]
Jane GREEN Daughter (Exec) [no surname given]
Mary BURFORD Daughter
John BURFORD Grandson
William BURFORD Grandson
Mary Ann BURFORD Granddaughter
George BURFORD Grandson
Thomas HARRIS Grandson
Edward HARRIS Grandson
Probate 1 May 1802
Effects under £5000?
So that would explain the Green sister with sister Burford . I'm interested in the Burford line & cant quite yet fit this in but it has to fit somewhere ! With regards to surgeons this maynot be of any help but the Burford family in Banbury were surgeons .
-
Hi
With a surname as common as Green you should be able to connect almost any other surname and find a Green in there somewhere.
1871 census RG10 3288 folio 10
12 High Cross Street Leicester
Charles Annis Green 35 Head Married Grocer Brixworth Northamptonshire
Sarah Ann Green 32 Wife Married Hinckley Leicestershire
Albert Alexander Green 13 Son Warehouse boy Hunckley Leicestershire
Robert Argyle Green 11 Son Hinckley Leicestershire
Julia Levenia Green 9 Daughter Leicester
Charlotte Burford 16 Sister Warehouse Girl Alesford Kent
plus 1 servant
1861 census RG9 484 folio 11
Preston Hall Lodge House Aylesford Kent
William Spiers 58 Head Married Gardener Alton Hants
Esther Spiers 57 Wife Married Wilbarston Northamptonshire
Charlotte Burford 6 Visitor Aylesford Kent
next door same property
Thomas Burford 63 Head Married Gamekeeper Standlake Oxon
Sophia Burford 12 Daughter Wasing Berks
1851 census HO107 1694 folio 377
North Town Cookham Berkshire
Thomas Burford 52 Head Married ? Keeper Standlake Oxon
Elizabeth Burford 39 Wife Married Northampton
Sophia Burford 2 Daughter Wasing Berks
plus 5 lodgers and 1 servant
18th February 1851 St Marylebone Middlesex
Thomas Burford Full Age Widower Gamekeeper St Marylebone Christopher Burford Farmer
Elizabeth Green Spinster St Marylebone Wm Green Servant
Both signed
Wintesses Charles Crockford and Esther Spiers
Regards
Valda
-
Crikey...... :D.... this is out of the blue... thanks Duckies (and Valda)
will read more and get back to you both later.
I had filed the Greens (bless them) and am sure :) I have all the Census returns etc
But thank you both so much it has re-awakened that line and I will investigate... a little more
Cheers
xin
-
Hello Duckies
Below is from my records and I think it means (though very interesting) we can discount your findings... unless they are distant cousins... As Valda says the Green name is quite common and may connect in many ways... I noticed one or two other similar contacts on GR and Ancestry that really do not link.
However I have certificates for these people that prove the links... So Maybe Thomas Green and his Burford family are connected somehow, ( wish I knew how?!) But not directly.
This is such a difficult line but the only Unclear and uncertificated fact now is the father of my Charles Annis Green and or Annis Marshall Green...
He is my G.G grandfather and I can continue his direct descendants ===== ALL certificated.
I have the Baptism that shows him as Annis Marshall and checking through the census returns see him eventually become Charles Annis Green.........
It is likely that somewhere there is a MARSHALL link but doubtful will ever be proved. It was fascinating to find the links to the Burfords. Because this proved that he was in touch with his mother throughout his life. I have to file him with my wayward ones ... I have a few that I cannot certificate which is a shame .
Thanks again for your help and if I was you I would check out Ancestry and GR to hopefully sort any connections you may need to Burfords.
1. Thomas Burford .
Thomas married Elizabeth Green daughter of William Green in 1851 in marylebone. Elizabeth was born in 1812. She died in 1894 in Maidstone kent.
They had the following children:
2 F i. Sophia Burford was born in 1849 in Waring Berks.
3 F ii. Charlottte Burford was born in 1855 in Alesford Kent.
Elizabeth Green……….is the Mother of Charles Annis… he has no named father… She then went on to marry Thomas Burford as above…
Sophia and Charlotte I have marriage certificates for.
-
ps. Thanks Valda... Yes I have checked my records and have all that and the Marriage cert for Elizabeth and Thomas... but really appreciate your help
xin
-
Of course... as a by the way....
Elizabeth may not have been from Brixworth..............??? she could originally have come from Kent area and gone to Northampton to have the baby???
So IF I could find a Mr. Marshall living in close proximity to an Elizabeth Green anywhere in Kent then I may be on to something....................... BUT who knows ??? ::)
xin
-
Could you contact the Royal College of Surgeons in UK to see if they had a Thomas Green listed as a surgeon?
Dawn M
-
Hi
On the 1851 census Elizabeth gives her birthplace as Northampton.
Elizabeth is not with her husband at Preston Hall Lodge Aylesford on the 1861 census, she is at Preston Hall Mansion Aylesford
RG9 484 folio 10
Elizabeth Burford 50 Servant Married Cook Wilbarston Northamptonshire
Thomas was a widower by the time of the 1871 census.
Why would Elizabeth give her birthplace as Northamptonshire on two separate censuses if she really came from Kent? Wilbarston and Brixworth are about 13 miles apart. Have you checked for potential Elizabeth Green baptisms in Wilbarston?
Since Charles Annis (Marsahll) Green was the illegitimate son of Elizabeth Green, his father is unlikely to share the surname Green, though undoubtedly with a reasonably common name like Thomas Green the Royal College of Surgeons is likely to have surgeons in their lists called Thomas Green. The Annis Marshall combination of his name on his baptism is more likely to point at least in part to the name of his father, but censuses show Annis Marshalls were all female living in the north of England so it isn't just a straightforward lift of a potential father's name.
Regards
Valda
-
Many thanks for the info , yes done ancestry & GR but thanks.
-
Hello Valda,
Yes I am sorry, it was just me thinking out loud. As can be seen I havent picked up this line for some time and had semi closed it.
I have traced Elizabeth's with father William all around Northampton including Wilbarston......... and if I remember correctly there was quite a discrepancy in ages of the Elizabeth I had settled (and that fits with Elizabeth Burford)on and a.n.other in or around that area.. So because she was born pre registration etc.. I had popped her into bed. I will go through what I have again regarding Elizabeth in 1841...
I have a vague recollection that the Clements the people she placed Annis Marshall with had a link to Burgess family that linked to Greens... but as I say its all latent memory and needs refreshing. So let me settle Poppa (if Poss) and have a search through. I do have the details you have shown.
And am really grateful for any help. It would be fantastic to find Charles Dad but as you say Annis is such an unusual name for a boy at that time...I had thought her Mother could be Ann and that the reason for the choice of Annis.. and so searched for a Charles Marshall for quite sometime ... to no avail.
I havent checked Baptisms for Elizabeth Green in Wilbarston.. That is the way to go. To make sure she is the daughter of William.............
Thanks again I appreciate your time and do not want you to waste time on me or this.. But it is intriquing and would be marvellous to sort... Off to have a look at my files..
:)
xin
Please forgive me if this is not making sense...