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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: hannah9000 on Wednesday 04 August 10 18:43 BST (UK)
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I am trying to search for the property above, but every other house number on that street is available apart from that one. I know that either it was a shop, or there was a shop below it. But according to my g grandfathers birth certificate he was born there and his mum resided there in 1901. But I can find absolutely no record. Any ideas please?
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62 South Molton Street is listed on the 1901 census but there is no one living there. The house is listed as 'unoccupied'.
The census reference is RG13/0081 Folio 7 Page 7
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Hi there
I've found 62 South Molton Street listed on the 1901 Census, but unfortunately the property was uninhabited on the night the Census was taken. Reference: RG 13/81 folio 7 page 5.
Going back to the 1891 Census, the property was occupied by a widow, Ellen Warren, with her son William and seven other young women who were variously described as dressmakers, milliners, and saleswomen. Reference: RG 12/67 folio 40 page 30
It looks like 62 South Molton Street - and several adjacent properties - were redeveloped and/or demolished not long after your great-grandfather's birth. An advert in The Times on Tuesday February 12 1901 (pg. 16; Issue 36376; col D) announced the forthcoming auction of the "building site...now occupied by 57, 58, 59, 60, 61 and 62 South Molton Street...No.57 being the Globe Publichouse." And then there were a number of adverts in The Times in the 1950's for The Triangle Secretarial Training College with the address 59-62 South Molton Street.
Hope this helps.
Dave
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Hi there
I've found 62 South Molton Street listed on the 1901 Census, but unfortunately the property was uninhabited on the night the Census was taken. Reference: RG 13/81 folio 7 page 5.
Going back to the 1891 Census, the property was occupied by a widow, Ellen Warren, with her son William and seven other young women who were variously described as dressmakers, milliners, and saleswomen. Reference: RG 12/67 folio 40 page 30
It looks like 62 South Molton Street - and several adjacent properties - were redeveloped and/or demolished not long after your great-grandfather's birth. An advert in The Times on Tuesday February 12 1901 (pg. 16; Issue 36376; col D) announced the forthcoming auction of the "building site...now occupied by 57, 58, 59, 60, 61 and 62 South Molton Street...No.57 being the Globe Publichouse." And then there were a number of adverts in The Times in the 1950's for The Triangle Secretarial Training College with the address 59-62 South Molton Street.
Hope this helps.
Dave
Wow Dave thank you so much. One other question if I may, was one of the young women living with Ellen Warren called Emily King and does it state her age? I've got my g grandfathers birth certificate here, and it says he was born in 62 south molton st, and his mum Emily, was resident in the property in 1901...but i'm really struggling to find out more!!
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Hi Hannah
No, Emily wasn't listed with Ellen Warren.
But I think I may have found her in the 1901 Census anyway!
62 South Molton Street is/was within the parish of St George Hanover Square.
The 1901 Census records that the following patient was in nearby St George's Hospital:
Emily Lena King, age 24, single, housemaid domestic, born in Ford, Wiveliscombe, Somerset
Ref: RG 13/90 folio 160 page 14
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Sadly there's a death registration for Emily Lena King in 1903 in Wellington, Somerset. :'(
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Hi Dave, it says on Lewis's (my g grandfather) birth certificate that he was born at 62 South Molton Street, if he was born in hospital would it not say that? However, it would all fit in as Lewis was fostered out to a family in Uplyme, Devon (as on the 1911 census) and we wondered why he was sent all that way but if Emily was originally from Somerset (which is where I am now!) that would perhaps explain why he was sent there?
But also, on the birth certificate, it states she is a dressmaker which is why I wondered if she resided with Ellen Warren. Also on the birth certificate the fathers name is put as James Russel Kin which we think is Emily's father as we're not sure Emily married...
Very confusing!! Thank you for all your help :)
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Hi Hannah
Bear in mind that the 1901 Census was taken about four months before Lewis was born, so Emily is very unlikely to have been in the hospital all that time. Possible she was only there because of initial complications with the pregnancy, or for a completely unrelated reason.
I've already taken the liberty of checking the earlier Census records for Emily Lena King. She was the daughter of a farm labourer called Robert King and, by the age of 14, was already living away from home and working a servant. It is easy to imagine that she then found herself in London, falling pregnant, giving birth to your g-grandfather and then returning home with him to Somerset where sadly she died in 1903. I can't see any evidence to suggest that she ever married, and it remains to be seen whether Lewis's father will ever be positively identified.
Dave
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Thanks again Dave. I'm still not sure, I can't understand where the
James Russell Kin bit on the birth certificate comes from, I'm almost certain that must be her father as Lewis' full name is Lewis Russell King so he's inherited the middle name. Thank you for all your help, I am very very grateful.
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Who was actually the informant on the birth certificate, and how long after the birth was it registered ? Parents had 6 weeks to register a birth, and if it was not the parent who actually registered the birth, the details may have been confused.
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Hi Nick, he was born on 27/08/1901 and registered on 19/09/1901...
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Hi
Does it actually state on his birth certificate his mother was Emily Lena King or just Emily King? There will unfortunately be a lot of Emily Kings and she could have just arrived before the birth to have the child as anonymously as possible.
Uplyme is on the Devon/Dorset county boundary near Lyme Regis about 34 miles away from Wiveliscombe
If it says he was born a 62 Moulton Street then he wasn't born in a hospital.
This is where the records are held for St George's Hospital
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/hospitalrecords/details.asp?id=176&hospital=st+george&town=&searchdatabase.x=102&searchdatabase.y=6
According to the database The London Metropolitan Archives hold the admission and discharge registers for the period - no-one seems to hold the clinical and patients' records for the period but if they exist the LMA should know where they are.
http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/Corporation/LGNL_Services/Leisure_and_culture/Records_and_archives/
It looks like there was an attempt by Emily to register her child as legitimate (often successful done by mothers but on this occasion the registrar spotted it hence the crossing out of the father's name)
'This situation lasted until the Registration Act of 1875 where the instruction read "The putative father of an illegitimate child cannot be required as father to give information respecting the birth. The name, surname and occupation of the putative father of an illegitimate child must not be entered except at the joint request of the father and mother; in which case both the father and mother must sign the entry as informants". There are therefore 3 kinds of entry after this Act:
(1) Described above
(2) Described above
(3) Where the parents are not married to one another but both attended the register office together, fathers details are entered in Column 4 and Column 6 and both parents sign. Looked at a different way - if both parents have signed in Column 7 regardless of what names they are using then the parents were not married to one another at the time of the birth of the child. '
http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/births.htm
What information is found on James Russell King's marriage certificate?
Regards
Valda
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Valda,
The birth certificate says the mother is Emily King. I'm afraid I think Emily Lena King is a different person.
I can't find James Russell King's marriage certificate as I don't know who he was married to. The closest match I can find is a James King, married to an Emily Cottrell with a daughter called Emily also who would be about the right age. And the records are all based in the Kensington area of London which would be about right. But i've no way of confirming this.
I had a thought, could Emily have been residing at 62 S.Molton St illegally? ie squatting? I want to identify this woman so I can see when she died and if she married/had more children before she died!!
I live in Somerset, and Uplyme/Lyme Regis is my local beach so I know the area well.
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Hi
How have you proved (without going into any details about the living) that this man is your g grandfather
'I can't find James Russell King's marriage certificate as I don't know who he was married to. The closest match I can find is a James King, married to an Emily Cottrell with a daughter called Emily also who would be about the right age.'
Regards
Valda
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Similar threads:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,472907.msg3326521.html#msg3326521
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,472778.msg3325380.html#msg3325380
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,471779.msg3317872.html#msg3317872
One of the threads says that the crossed out entry says RUS... whereas another says KIN... Which is it? Much more likely to be the former.
Richard
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Lewis Russell King is my g grandfather. He is who's certificate I've got. And he still has 3 daughters alive, one of whom I went to see yesterday. I have his old school books and attendance records for the school he went to in Uplyme. And a copy of a postcard he wrote to his wife before they married.
James Russell King is the assumed father of Emily due to the name that has been entered on the certificate and then crossed out. Again, this may be completely wrong.
Should I just lay this one to rest and accept i'm going to get no-where? The only issue with that is that I have a non defeatable attitude! I'll just be more determined to find out more!
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see this other thread too
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,472907.msg3326521.html#msg3326521
Lewis Russell King is the grandfather. (this post crossed with yours hannah- sorry)
As Valda says, at the moment, it looks as though Emily was trying to register her child as legitimate.
James Russell King may be totally or partially an invented name.
There is no place on the certificate for her own father's name - did she register the birth?
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Thanks Heywood,
Yes she registered the birth. And stated her address as the topic title. Am I allowed to put up a picture of the birth certificate?
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No, I don't think so. You can cut and paste the section you would want to show.
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Hi
Sorry for the confusion that occurred from my original post - wrong name
What I was really asking was
What information is found on Lewis Russell King's marriage certificate?
It is very unlikely there was a James Russell King. He would be just be James Russell
Regards
Valda
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The birth certificate says the mother is Emily King. I'm afraid I think Emily Lena King is a different person.
I can't find James Russell King's marriage certificate as I don't know who he was married to.
As both Valda and I have suggested, it is much more likely that the father was a James Russell (and she started to write James Russell King to make it look legitimate). I don't think you will find a James Russell King, although I wish you luck.
And I'm not sure you are right to reject Emily Lena King. It may not be the right person but it does give a good reason for her son ending up in Devon. Have you established that the family who adopted him are not related to Emily?
(I see that one published tree puts Lewis' birth in Northamptonshire!)
Richard
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The reason I asked who had registered the birth was that I have seen cases where the father has registered the birth, even when he has declined to be named on the certificate. However, in this case it appears that the mother had registered the birth.