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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Kent => Topic started by: Kim Pearce on Tuesday 27 July 10 02:44 BST (UK)
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I am looking for any information on the Harris family of Dover (daughters Florence, Joyce, Edna, Corey and son George - George was born around 1925).
This is, unfortunately, the only information I have on the family until Florence married in 1926.
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Hi Kim,
Is this request referring to the same family as this other thread?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,155218.0.html
If so, I suggest you have a look at the 1911 census and see if you can find them - there seems to be a possible family in the Greenwich district of London.
If they're the ones, then this is a likely marriage for the parents
Dec 1902 Islington 1b 521
John William Harris to Edith Clara Atkinson
:)
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Florence Edith, Jessie Edith, Robert John and William were born pre-1911.
Having a look at births post-1911 for Harris with mother's maiden name Atkinson, we get:
Dec 1912 Greenwich: Coralie M Harris
Dec 1915 Greenwich: Edna M Harris
Later, a Joyce and also a George (slightly later than you thought)
Sounds good, what do you think? :D
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Marriage details:
21 Dec 1902 St Mary Islington
John William Harris, 21, Bachelor, Clerk, 14 Cross St, father William Thomas Harris, Packer
Edith Clara Atkinson, 22, Spinster, 14 Cross St, father Robert William Atkinson, Railway Carrier Manager
Witnesses C.P. Martin and C.M. Seaget
Edith Clara is easy to find in 1881 but shout if you need help.
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We're looking for a John William Harris born ca. 1882 Islington.
Here's a possible christening:
9th April 1882 St Luke Middlesex
John William Harris born 4 Mar 1882, parents William and Sophia of 1 Waterloo Place, father a Carman.
The 1881 census reveals that this William's middle name was T:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1881&indiv=try&h=14801282
RG11/362 85 15
1891 says William G (RG12/231 92 3) but he's William T in 1901 again, a Carrier's carman RG13/258 6 3
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Was Florence birthday on 17 March? If so, this looks like her christening:
10 April 1904 Stoke Newington London
Florence Mary Edith Harris born 17 Mar 1904, parents John William and Edith Clara of 43 Mortimer Rd Kingsland, father a clerk
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Hello Tati,
Thank you so much for all your efforts. It certainly seems that you are pointing me in the right direction. I had given up my search shortly after my original post in 2006, believing I was not going to get any further back. I am how hopeful that I will, in fact, be able to go back a few more generations.
Thank you again.
Kim
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p.s. I have had no luck finding the family in the 1911 census.
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Hmm, not sure why you have problems finding them - they seem straight forward. No hit with John William Harris born 1882 Islington, living in Greenwich district?
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:( no luck. is there another site, besides findmypast, where i can look?
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I found him here: www.1911census.co.uk
Try Edith Clara Harris, born 1879, maybe?
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Marriage William Thomas Harris - Sophia Fanny S George
Sep 1876 Shoreditch 1c 290
16 Jul 1876, St John the Baptist, Hoxton
William Thomas Harris, full age, bachelor, Carman, 28 Britania St, Father Thomas William Harris, Bricklayer
Sophia Fanny Susannah George, full age, spinster, 32 Britania St, Father William George, Carpenter
witnesses William George and Frances Harris
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William Thomas Harris born ca. 1853:
1881 says he was born Sydenham, later censuses say St Luke. I'm quite happy with Sydenham:
Christening St Bartholemew's Sydenham, Kent 21 August 1853:
William Thomas, son of Thomas William and Elizabeth Frances Harris of Sydenham, father a Bricklayer
(I think the family moved to St Lukes shortly afterwards)
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Found them! So strange that I could find them on census1911, which is powered by findmypast, but not on findmypast itself. Thank you so much for your help.
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1871
RG10/402 49 21
St Luke, London
10 Waterloo St
Thos Wm Harris, head, 45, Labourer, b. Paddington
Elizth F, wife, 42, b. St Luke
William T, son, 17, Carman, b. Surrey Sydenham
John Reuben, son, 14, Carman boy, b. St Luke
Frances C, dau, 13, scholar, b. do.
Emily J, dau, 11, scholar, b. do.
Josephine, dau, 5, scholar, b. do.
In 1861, the family are at RG9/204 40 29
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I'm a little surprised to hear that George was born later than 1925. My father, George's nephew, was born in 1927.
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I'm a little surprised to hear that George was born later than 1925. My father, George's nephew, was born in 1927.
The birth is on FreeBMD, seems uncle and nephew were the same age :)
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You are absolutely wonderful Tati. I can't thank you enough for all this help.
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Pleasure :)
Marriage St James Paddington, 3 Nov 1850
Thomas William Harris, full age, bachelor, Labourer, Moscow? Rd, father Joseph Harris, Gardener
Elizabeth Frances Brooks, full age, spinster, Moscow Rd, father John Thomas Brooks (can't read occupation: Turner or Farmer or similar)
Unfortunately the 1841 census for Paddington seems to be missing, so I can't check the Harris family before Thomas' marriage.
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I just checked the 1851 census for Thomas and Elizabeth Harris to see if it reveals anything interesting - other children, family or whatever. Nothing special, except they're the last household of the enumeration district (53 pages in total!) and this is what it says beneath their household ;D
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A census taker with a sense of humour! How delicious.
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Everthing beyond the Harris surname is new to me, so I'll be interested to see if I can find any information on the Atkinson, George and Brooks families.
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I was just looking at the George family:
1871
RG10/475 43 11
Bethnal Green, London
30 Old Castle St
William George, head, 36, Carpenter & Joiner, b. London
Susan, wife, 36, b. do.
Sophia, dau, 14, b. Bethnal Green
John, son, 16, b. do.
Margaret, dau, 12, b. do.
not yet christened, dau, 1 month, b. do.
Big age gap between Margaret and the little one!
Sophia should be only 12 too, going by this birth registration:
Sophia Fanny Susannah George, Sep 1858 Bethnal Green 1c 207
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Could you recommend some websites? I am in Montreal (Canada) so I have been relying primarily on Ancestry.co.uk. Folks on Rootschat are finding information that I haven't found on Ancestry.
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I'm surprised - they seem to have all the relevant records mentioned here.
Susan George is widowed by 1881, age 44, birth place Shoreditch.
Most likely marriage I can see:
St John The Baptist, Hoxton, 24 July 1854
William John George, minor, bachelor, Cabinet Maker, Nichols Street, father William George Licensed Victualler
Susannah Price, minor, spinster, Nelson Street, father's details blank
Witnesses William George, Caroline? A George, Ann Price
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I found 3 other trees on Ancestry that had Thomas W. Harris and Sophia Frances Susannah George. The branch ended with this couple on 2 of the trees. On the 3rd tree, however, the owner has different mothers' names for both Thomas and Sophia.
I have my doubts that they have the correct mother for Thomas, as her birth date would have her 15 years older than her husband and aged 48 when Thomas was born.
Sophia's mother on this tree is Louisa Farrent of Southwark, Surrey. Do you think Louisa or Susan is most likely to be Sophia's mother?
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Well, I've seen so many mistakes in ancestry trees that I'm not the world's most devout believer in them but then of course the research can be very good. Always worth contacting the submitter, I suppose :)
In this case, are you looking at the tree showing her parents as John George, Hawker of fruit, and Louisa Farrant? I admit I have my doubts because it contradicts the marriage cert information. A quick look at BMDs makes this birth more likely for the daughter of John and Louisa according to me:
Sophia George - Jun 1858 - St George Southwark 1d 137
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Just looked at the details for Thomas W Harris on the same tree and I'm completely lost. The parents never seem to be in the London area at all, and are never shown on the censuses with a matching Thomas. Hmmm ....
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Hi Tati!
I email'd the owner of the aforementioned tree and, whaddya know, she lives in Canada too Not 275 kilometres from me! We are going to keep in touch and, hopefully, get together later in the summer to compare notes. I wonder what my father would have thought of all this.
I am hoping to pick your brains one more time. Now that you've helped me trace my dad's mom's side of the family, I'm hoping that maybe you can help me do the same with his father's side. I tried to find them on the 1911 census, with no luck. I suspect that once again I am doing something wrong. My granddad's name was Jack Thomas Pearce, son of Elizabeth Foster Brushwood and Thomas Henry Pearce. He was born app 1901 in Dover and had siblings named Percy, Harold, Leonard, Arthur and Molly. I've posted queries about this family before, but I believe it was prior to the 1911 census being released.
My fingers are crossed.
Cheers,
Kim
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Hello Kim :)
In 1901, he's Jack T Pierce, RG13/838 81 45. (I believe it's a record you've already added to your tree)
I'm getting one hit for Jack Pearce age 10 born Dover, still using this site www.1911census.co.uk. Household seems to match what you know about him.
Pearce children born Dover after the 1911 census, mother's maiden name Brushwood:
Harold 1912
Leonard 1913
Mollie 1919
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Thanks Tati. Looks like it was a case of the website being temperamental. It couldn't find Jack unless I omitted his middle name (Thomas).
Now that I have the census, I see that the family reported that they had a child who was deceased prior to 1911. The Ancestry site shows 4 possibilities, two of which seem more likely than the others.
Any suggestions on how to determine if any of these 4 children (Cissie Sophia b1901 d1902, Harry b1902 d1904, Nina b1902 d1902 or Dennis Walter b1906 d1906) is the child of Thomas Henry Pearce and Elizabeth Foster Brushwood?
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Sorry, other than buying the birth certs I don't know.
Cissie Sophia is the only one we should be able to rule out because she was as born before the 1901 census. Birth Jun 1900. I can see a Cissie Sophia Pearce (the surname is misindexed) in Dover in 1901, parents Samuel William and Louisa but her age is down as 5 months - maybe a mistake?
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I have found several members of Ancestry.co.uk who have William T. Harris and Sophia Frances Susannah George in their family trees. All these members have different parents for both William and Sophia.
For William, all the other members have James Harris married to Elizabeth Webb. I'd like to determine which couple is actually William's parents.
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The problem with ancestry trees is that many people just blindly copy from other trees without checking for themselves.
We found the marriage details earlier on this thread
16 Jul 1876, St John the Baptist, Hoxton
William Thomas Harris, full age, bachelor, Carman, 28 Britania St, Father Thomas William Harris, Bricklayer
Sophia Fanny Susannah George, full age, spinster, 32 Britania St, Father William George, Carpenter
witnesses William George and Frances Harris
and there was a matching 1871 census
1871
RG10/402 49 21
St Luke, London
10 Waterloo St
Thos Wm Harris, head, 45, Labourer, b. Paddington
Elizth F, wife, 42, b. St Luke
William T, son, 17, Carman, b. Surrey Sydenham
John Reuben, son, 14, Carman boy, b. St Luke
Frances C, dau, 13, scholar, b. do.
Emily J, dau, 11, scholar, b. do.
Josephine, dau, 5, scholar, b. do.
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Hello:
My sister just sent me this link, and I am pleased to say that we are great grandchildren of William T Harris and his wife Sophia. Please contact for further information. So delighted to have found this information.
M
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Hi Cousin M!
How exciting!! This branch of the family tree is the one I know the least about, never having met my grandmother. I travelled to England in 1987, hoping to meet her, but she wouldn't see me. I learned, upon my return to Canada, that she was terminally ill at the time and I guess she didn't need the emotional upset of a visit at that point. So I missed my chance to meet the only member of the Harris family that I knew about.
I would love to know more if you have any info you can share.
Kim
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Cousin! This is awesome. Yes, I have quite a bit of data/info, but have only recently discovered John W. Harris and "Edie" (as she was known to the family) whereabouts after their marriage.. My mom, now 98 years, remembers John and Edie but they moved to Deptford and seemed to have lost contact with the rest of the Harris siblings. There were a total of total of 12 children (one died shortly after birth) born to William T and his wife Sophia F.S. Harris. My mom is named after her Grandma Sophia. Not sure how much you know. Keep in touch.
Cousin M
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Hi Cous!
I know next to nothing about the Harris clan. Daddy talked very little about his childhood. I know that he and his brothers were evacuated from London to stay with family. I don't know whether he stayed with Harris family members or Pearce family. I seem to remember him saying that he lived, at least for a while, in Wales, but I'm not 100% sure I'm remembering that correctly.
Anything you can tell me would be sooooo appreciated.
Kim (Montreal)
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Sorry I am not on Facebook or MSN because of my current "occupation" If there is a way I can get your email address, or phone number, or vice versa, I would love to provide you with info/data that I have. I gather that your Dad was born to Florence nee Harris who married a Pearce. If you have any ideas how we can connect up personally, please advise. I do want to put my email address nor phone number on Roots Chat and can explain personally later on.
Cousin M
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Why not send a personal message? Just click on the userame you want to contact and click on "send this user a personal message"...
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Thank you for your suggestion, and I will do this. Great site and so many folk are so helpful
M