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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: daisymershum on Thursday 22 July 10 09:01 BST (UK)
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Hi,
Just wondering if any Irish scholars out there might be able to tell me what is written on the bottom right corner of this photograph? Looks like it says 'Fear something'?
It's a shot of my grand uncle, Patrick Mervyn, who went on to be a captain in the Irish army. The date is significant in that the following day - May 24, 1923 - the Irish Civil War officially ended.
I would post on the Irish Language board, but my Gaeilge is a bit hazy!
Thanks,
Dave
(daisymershum)
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Also posted on Armed Forces board for uniform identification-
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,469785.msg3298370.html#msg3298370
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It looks like a signature in Irish.
Seán Mac
Can't make out the surname.
Date looks like 23/5/23
Dara.
Sorry. Missed the bit about the date.
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could the long word be the Irish for Mervyn, maybe?
eadaoin
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Mervyn name is celtic in orgin, then from the Welsh Mervin. Do you live in Ireland, take it to a local church the Priest might be able to help you. Have you been in touch with the Army. Great Photo.
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It looks like Fear Machiganna, but this could mean MacHiggins or even Higgins as Fear is "son of.." and is often left out in translation.
Now, what often looks logical is very often nothing like it looks when translated.
http://www.curragh.info/soldier.htm might be able to help, even if just to translate the writing.
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try this site you can e-mail them, http://www.daltai.com/grammar.htm
this is a Irish site so they should be able to help you.
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Hi
Fear is Man in irish as well
Regards
Genseacher
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why not post it on the Irish Language board, I am sure they would help you, I was born in Ireland but brought up in England, all the Irish people I know in England and Ireland speak English.
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The IRISH LANGUAGE board says "Posts in this section to be in Gaeilge (Gaelge) . Posts in English will be deleted."
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I agree with Dara's earlier interpretaion of the firstname and think it might be Sean - I dont see any indication of a cross bar for an F. Maybe the pen slipped at the border between the photo and the surround, so distorting the lower part of the S.
I think the surname begins with Mac, but the 4th letter is a bit of a mystery.. 1st section of it looks like a bit like a h but the rest looks like an m.
Other than that.. there are three fadás and a letter with a decender - presumably g
Mac..aégá.m.s
I've attached some extracts/blowups below..
Shane
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the photo could be signed by the person who took the photo.
You could try the: The National Libray of Ireland, Kildare Street, Dublin 2, Ireland. e-mail: info(at)nli.ie
change the (at) with @
or Central Library Letterkenny, Oliver Plunkett Road, Letterkenny, County Donegal.
e-mail: central(at)donegallibrary.ie change the (at) with a @
as the photo is part of Irish History they might be interest in a copy of the photo for their files.
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Hi
I think the second photo shows the name Lafayette (Photographer) - see http://www.vam.ac.uk/vastatic/microsites/1158_lafayette/back_dev.php
Cheers
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I have always thought it looks like Sean Mac...
Shane's efforts look pretty good. Or is it 'l' after Mac?
This has also puzzled me because your uncle is called Patrick and I've not liked to ask if you are sure it is him and not someone else.
It might be that it has been signed for him perhaps- like an autograph. :-\
Here are some Gaelic surnames for inspiration: http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/irenames.htm
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Hi
Been thinking about this and I don't think it is a surname. I think it is a form of compliment. I believe the first word is Fear and the nearest I can come to the second word is Machnamhach meaning contemplative or reflective. Not sure that is correct but something of that ilk.
Regards
annclare
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I think it is ? Macalpines, the Macalpines did picture post cards find up to 1922 must have joined forces or worked with Lafayette.
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Daisy
Have changed my mind it is definitely a surname and I think the last five letters are gamna. If you want to try the Gaelic forum suggest you could post this - my Irish is also fairly basic!!
Heading -Cabhair
Text- {Dia dhaoibh
Taím ag lorg cabhair cun an sloinne atá scriobhta ar an fótograf a d'fáil amach. Mas féidir é ba mhaith liom an leagan Béarla.}
annclare
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Thank you all so much for your help,
Some very good ideas there. I might not ever find out for definite, but I'll keep trying.
Thanks again for your input.
DM
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Hope you don't mind, sent e-mail and copy of photo to Lafayette to ask if it is one of their photos. Got answer back it is definitely a Lafayette photo, but the person who would know more about the photo is on holiday, so it will be sometime next week before they get back to me.
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Well done Rathmore - that one step closer. :)
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Gwen at Lafayette think it says - Fear Michael Higgins 23/5/23 but they are still looking.
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Gwen at Lafayette think it says - Fear Michael Higgins 23/5/23 but they are still looking.
Can see where it possibly says Fear Michael but can't see Higgins as the last part.
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Came across a military site photos of The Royal Dublin Fusiliers - Mission to the USA 1925/27dress in the same uniform as your Patrick. Sent them a e-mail with photo. Got e-mail back will forward to
Officer in Charge, Military Archives, Cathal Brugha Barracks, Rathmines, Dublin 6.
but they will want a written letter as well. This department deals with all enquires.
I ask did most of the men have their photos taken. You will have to write to them at the above address. Saying that Hannah sent a e-mail on the 11.08.2010. and was told to write to them.
If most of the men and women had their photos taken it is more likely they will be able to tell you wants written on the photo, if and when you find out want is written please let us all know.
Http://www.military.ie/dfhq/archives/contact/htm
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The other site is
http://wapedia.mobi/en/irish_army#1.
this is the Irish National Army, Beggar's Bush Barracks Dublin 1922
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Thank you so much Hannah,
You've gone to a lot of trouble. I really appreciate the time you've taken to enquire about the photo, on two counts.
I actually emailed the Military Archives last week about the photo, but have yet to get a response. Perhaps a letter would be better still.
I'll report back if I get anything concrete from them.
Thanks again,
Dave (daisymershum)
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Mystery solved! The Military Archives in Cathal Brugha Barracks emailed me back, and cleared everything up!
Turns out my dad was wrong and it is not a photo of my grand uncle, Captain Patrick Mervyn.
Hugh in the archives said: 'I have checked the photo and it is actually a portrait of General Sean McMahon, the Chief of Staff of the Free State Army from August 1922 until March 1924. The writing at the bottom is his signature, so it is a nice photograph to have!
'The rank markings on the collar are a sign of a senior Staff Officer. Captain Mervyn would have had three bars specifically on his shoulder flashes.'
It turns out my grand uncle worked closely with Sean McMahon during his time in the army (1922-1926).
Patrick was Staff Officer in Chief of Staff’s Department, General Headquarters, and Personal Staff Officer to General Officer Commanding, Southern Command, Major General Sean McMahon.'
Hugh told me: 'Captain Mervyn would have been involved with clerical work in both Offices that he worked in. Major General McMahon was actually Chief of Staff (COS) during part of Capt Mervyn’s time in the Chief of Staff’s Office. General Richard Mulcahy was COS before that (he went on to be Commander in Chief after Collins’ death during the Civil War) and General Peadar McMahon was COS after that.
'Maj Gen McMahon asked for Capt Mervyn to be transferred down to him as his Personal Staff Officer (PSO) once he returned to Southern Command as General Officer Commanding (GOC), as the captain was familiar with the type of work involved.
'This work would have ranged from secretarial type work, to escort duty, liaison with various committees and Corps, and basically any work that the GOC might throw at him. The Captain who works here has had experience as a PSO to a Force Commander on one of the UN missions, and he says that he has never been so busy!'
Nice of him to go to the trouble. Thanks again to all who made suggestions. Would be interested to find out more about Sean McMahon.