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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Ruskie on Wednesday 21 July 10 23:25 BST (UK)

Title: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Wednesday 21 July 10 23:25 BST (UK): Welcome to Part 4.

Judging by what Steven has said, there is a lot to look forward to in Nathaniel's Diary so I've locked Part 3 as we have now reached the limit of 20 pages, and we can continue our discussion here.

I must thank the moderators for letting us continue with this thread in The Common Room. It's giving many of us a lot of pleasure and it may not have been found by so many if it was on The Lighter Side.

I hope that in Part 4 some more descendants of Nathaniel may find us and join our discussion.

For anyone who wants to catch up .....

Part 1:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,457330.0.html

Part 2:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,459757.0.html
On page one of Part 2 is a recap of our discoveries and a timeline.

Part 3:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,464660.0.html

And Nathaniel's Diary:
http://www.westminster.gov.uk/services/libraries/archives/victorian-clerk/
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Steven Bryceson on Wednesday 21 July 10 23:36 BST (UK): I'll definately spill the beans on Ann's age tomorrow as I am sure it is in all our interest to try and find out as much as we can about her before we get to nearly the end of the year! Peace, Steven.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Wednesday 21 July 10 23:39 BST (UK): I'm going to start by replying to Steven.

The Archive Library has now put an account of my visit on its blog - http://wcclibraries.wordpress.com/
Fabulous - I will check this out in a minute. ;D

The records of the poor law guardians are at Kew records office.
So is this the same as Bastardy Bonds/Records? Fancy a trip to Kew Steven? ;)

I did see a print out of the baptism entry which seems to have "pauper" and "workhouse" clearly next to the father's and not the mother's entry.
This is on the new London PRs on Ancestry. I agree that 'Pauper' is Nathaniel White's 'occupation' although the word is written centrally (it would be unusual for a mother's occuption to be noted on a baptismal entry). There is a big W and H written underneath it. The W and H look to be in between both parent's names, so not conclusive.

I did discuss the notion of the library printing images of the orginal diary in due course so that people can check transcription against the original.
That would be wonderful. I think they should publish it in a book in it's original form (but smaller ;)) for purchase. Maybe they could also include the transcription, Nathaniel's family tree etc. I'd buy it!

The size of the diary relates to the fact that it it was written in an old accounts book - all this info is on the WCC Introduction page I think.
I didn't realise that. I don't remember reading about it but I have a dreadful memory.

Yes, I enjoy keeping you in suspense but also want to give adequate time for people to object to me spilling the beans oin Ann's age!
I thought you enjoyed teasing us. :) I'd like to know Ann's age!

STEVEN you said you'd tell us Ann's age TOMORROW and it IS tomorrow! It's my tomorrow anyway, so can you tell me? PM me now - I'm waiting. You're right, it IS VITAL that we know Ann's age. ;D

;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Wednesday 21 July 10 23:40 BST (UK): Morning Ruskie

Evening here ...so as usual having some red wine and dinner shortly ....

If Ann Fox has been lying madly about her age I'll kill her ... or errr I'll be really upset!!! ;D ;D 8) I have searched marriages for her but the age always seems off ...strange thing is, is that she got older rather than younger as we found in part 1

1841
St Pancras
STEPHEN STREET
Lots of people all living in seperate "rooms?"
including:
SOPHIA OLLIVE 50 DRESSMAKER Y
ANN FOX 30 F S , yes

(refer to diary and mention of Mrs. Olive)

1851
27 Stephen Street
Cock Family
John BURNS
Mary Elizth KENNINGTON, unm 63, mangling , b Middlesex, St James, Picadilly
ANN FOX, 49, Charwoman, b Middlesex, Queen St

deb

red post ...hi Steven ...I do enjoy the way you sign off ...Peace/Joy :D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Wednesday 21 July 10 23:45 BST (UK): Just read the Westminster Archives blog, and I see they are planning a book! I'm very pleased. ;D Fabulous plug for Rootschat. Thanks for telling them about us Steven. THis is all very exciting!

Hi Deb. Great idea to post those censuses to refresh our memories in preparation for Steven telling us Ann Fox's age!

HINT HINT!!!! Steven
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Wednesday 21 July 10 23:48 BST (UK): Question for Steven

Did you have to prove your lineage in order to see the HUGE diary?

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Aniseed on Wednesday 21 July 10 23:49 BST (UK): Great article about your visit on the Westminster Archives blog, Steve...they were obviously chuffed to see you! It must have been great for them, as they've probably got very much into the diary and Nathaniel's doings, and to see you is a link to him, if you see what I mean!

Thanks for putting the link up Ruskie, it was very kind of you!

OK, considering putting up a Z-bed and camping out in the thread until Steve tells us Ann's age! I'll probably go to my own bed instead, though!
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Wednesday 21 July 10 23:50 BST (UK): Ruskie

should I post the summaries again ?...just for easy reference ...then maybe I could add to them from subsequent threads ....

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Wednesday 21 July 10 23:51 BST (UK): So we have Ann Fox born in 1811 according to the 1841 census, and born in 1802 according to the (usually more accurate) 1851 census.

Now I'm getting worried that we have the wrong Ann Fox. Surely not considering her address and who she is living with.

I would really love to find out more about her - her parents, family, children?, marriage/s?, what her appeal was to Nathaniel .... etc ....

Deb, I also wondered if Steven had to show his ID but I think they'd trust his word with him being a man of the cloth :) Are you thinking of rocking up and telling them you're a descendant so you get to touch 'the book'? ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Wednesday 21 July 10 23:54 BST (UK): Just posting Steven's visit to the archives for Tristan and Sarah (the fab peeps that invented Rootschat )

from Steven:
The Archive Library has now put an account of my visit on its blog - http://wcclibraries.wordpress.com/

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Wednesday 21 July 10 23:55 BST (UK): Quote from: Ruskie on Wednesday 21 July 10 23:51 BST (UK)

Deb, I also wondered if Steven had to show his ID but I think they'd trust his word with him being a man of the cloth :) Are you thinking of rocking up and telling them you're a descendant so you get to touch 'the book'? ;D

I will tell them I am Ann's something or other he he
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Wednesday 21 July 10 23:58 BST (UK): Oh, not sure about reposting teh summaries Deb - they're quite long. Should we see what everyone else thinks?

It might be less daunting to just post the relevant bits of the summary (as you did with Ann in the censuses) depending on what we're discussing at the time?

I do know that the summaries are on PAGE 1 of PART 2 if anyone wants to go back and read them.

And we're all just waiting for Steven to TELL US WHAT ANN FOX'S AGE IS and then we can get stuck into some more searching. I'm off to get a coffee and hope for a nice surprise in my inbox when I return. Hint ... Steven! ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Wednesday 21 July 10 23:59 BST (UK): it's almost tomorrow here and I think it is a few minutes from tomorrow in Steven's world LOL

almost 7pm here, almost midnight UK time ...I think

deb waiting in anticipation 8)

added .... ...Ruskie ...Steven is ignoring you ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 00:06 BST (UK): Deb, great idea to let Sarah and Tristan know about the rootschat mention in the Westminster Archives blog! Will they see that link on here or do you need to PM them?

I know Steven is ignoring me.

I'll bet his ittle light will go off in a minute. Another long day .. not knowing Ann's age or what happens in August ... :'( Feel sorry for me Steven. :'(
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 00:16 BST (UK): Told you - Steven has signed off.

:'(
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 22 July 10 00:24 BST (UK): crapola!

he he
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: forthefamily on Thursday 22 July 10 01:00 BST (UK): Just putting my mark.......X

mab ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 01:49 BST (UK): Oh dear.

I really love today's entry:

Dog ‘Dummer’ at Wharf delivered safely of eight pups.

;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 01:56 BST (UK): Hi Deb. Nathaniel's death was registered in Mile End District, but he was living in Clerkenwell in the 1901 census. Perhaps he was living with family in Mile End, or was in an institution?

Deaths Dec 1890
Bryceson Sarah
age 64
Islington 1b 265
The family were living in Islington at this time.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: karenlee on Thursday 22 July 10 01:57 BST (UK): Love it.... must have been a slow news day.. ;D ;D ;D

C'mon Steven... how are we supposed to find the right Ann if we don't know her "real" age.. :o
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: majm on Thursday 22 July 10 02:11 BST (UK): Yes, how ::)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 02:17 BST (UK): Hi Karen! :) So you're another one who wants to know Ann's age? And majm ... ;) Are you listening Steven? ;D

Right Deb, I've had another look at the marriages to check the signatures ;):

Mary Lea and John Shepard marriage -
both parties plus witnesses signed their own names

Mary Shep(p)ard and John Bryceson -
the whole entry was filled out by one person including signing the names of both parties and witnesses

Mary Bryceson and Matthew Ward -
the whole entry was filled out by one person including signing the names of both parties and witnesses.

It none of the cases was "X - the mark of" written. I would still say that they were all literate. If Granny Shepard was, and Nathaniel was, I reckon mum Mary was too. :)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: tedscout on Thursday 22 July 10 02:18 BST (UK): Please Steven tell us Ann's age.

I wonder if "Dummer" is actually Mumma :-\

I love the picture of the diary and Steven

And Im here book marking new thread - thanks Ruskie
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 22 July 10 02:32 BST (UK): Hi Ruskie

Thanks for checking the handwriting on the marriages .... I still think the Lea Family was the maybe "more educated " side of the family...

remember Granny Shepard was actually Mary Lea b Birmingham

STEVEN >>>>WAKE UP !!!!!!!! ;D ;D ::) :o

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 02:45 BST (UK): None of that shouting will wake Steven. ;)

I decided to check son Nathaniel as both father and son died in 1911 and I thought they may be buried together.

All the spiel says Nathaniel was an undertaker and I thought if we could locate the company he worked for we may find who buried him and where.

However, although Nathaniel jnr was an undertaker in the 1881 census, he gives away that profession before the 1891 census.

1891
47 Charlotte St, Islington
Nathaniel Bryceson mar head 35 goods guard (GNR) b Islington
Annie wife 26 b Chelsea
Ethel E daur 8 b Islington
+ lodger

1901
32 Crouch Hill
Islington
Nathaniel Bryceson head mar 44 Railway Goods Guard
annie wife 40
Ethel E duar 18 milliner
+boarder

Nathaniel jnr and wife Annie only appear to have had one child.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 02:49 BST (UK): Marriages Sept 1/4 1882
Nathaniel Bryceson
Annie Stone
Islington
1b 601

Births Dec 1/4 1882 ;)
Ethel Elizabeth Bryceson
Islington
1b 246

And perhaps her marriage:
Dec 1913
Ethel Bryceson
John E Waterson
Shoreditch
1c 99

Is anyone able to find Ethel E Bryceson in the 1911 to see who she is living with?
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: waiteohman on Thursday 22 July 10 03:02 BST (UK): Steven - Pray tell ;D Ann's age.

Linda
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: majm on Thursday 22 July 10 03:16 BST (UK): Re 1911 ... closest I can get :

1913 Marriage WATERSON = BRYCESON at St Chad, Haggerston, Hackney married by Banns.
John Edmund Waterson, 28, Bachelor, a Caterer, of 208 Kingsland Rd, (his father was) Robert Waterson, Caterer
Ethel Bryceson, 27, Spinster of same address, (her father was) Nathaniel Bryceson, Engineer Deceased,
Witnesses : Robert Waterson and John Albert Milian (or Wilian, hard to read).

;) John Edmund Waterson may have served in WW1 ;)

NB the engineer, that would be same chap ;) who was a Porter residing Queens Arms Buildings when Ethel Elizabeth Bryceson was baptised 5 Nov 1882, (birth 30 Sept 1882) to NB and Annie (Stone re 1882 marriage) at St Mary, Islington

JM
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 03:22 BST (UK): Have been looking for Nathaniel and Sarah's children and found some possibles all in Islington district:

Sarah Clark Bryceson
b Jun 1855
d Sept 1855

Nathaniel b Sept 1856

John William b Dec 1857

Sarah Maria b Sept 1858

Samuel b Dec 1859

John S... b Jun 1860

Mary Shepard Bryceson
b Dec 1861
there is a plain Mary d Jun 1863 who may be same one

Henry b Dec 1863

Mary Ward Bryceson
b Jun 1865
d Jun 1865

Definites still alive for census and beyond

There are a couple of others but they don't seem to fit in with the known births. Also some of the above probably do not belong to Nat and Sarah.

Fab thanks for that JM - that's the right marriage. ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 03:27 BST (UK): I have found the following births for children with father's surname Waterson and mother's surname Bryceson:

Betty - Jun 1/4 1917 Hackney
Nancy - Set 1920 Shoreditch
Elsie - Sept 1922 Marylebone
George E - Dec 1924 Edmonton
(Fairly unusual combination of surnames so likely to be the right couple, but they moved around a lot)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: majm on Thursday 22 July 10 03:30 BST (UK): 1882 marriage would be NB Junior

20 July 1882, Nathaniel Bryceson Jr 26 Bachelor, Undertaker, 48 Essex Rd Nth (father was) Nathaniel Bryceson, Accountant. Annie Stone, 21, Spinster, 12 Compton Rd, (father was) Joseph Stone, Tobacco Pipe Maker. at St Phillip The Evangelist, Arlington Square.

Witnesses : Samuel Taylor Davis, Elizabeth Sayer Davis (her mark,)

JM
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 22 July 10 03:31 BST (UK): too late here for me to search for anyone or anything :-\ .... arrghhh ...I think I will be the last to know when Ann was born :(

good searching .....

night night

deb

PS ... good finds on the Bryceson people ...well done you lot! :D finding Nat's place of burial would be GREAT!!!!!
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 03:38 BST (UK): There are a few possibilities for marriages for the Waterson children - can't narrow them down enough with any certainty.

I've just been off on a tangent with this family .... :) I was trying to find where all Nathaniel's family were buried in an attempt to find him. Looks like they all died in Islington. But buried where?

Nite Deb.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: majm on Thursday 22 July 10 03:48 BST (UK): Agree Ruskie, but where ... perhaps surnames mistranscribed, must have been recorded in shorthand!

Edit to add ...

http://www.rootschat.com/links/099m/

JM
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 04:02 BST (UK): Quote from: majm on Thursday 22 July 10 03:48 BST (UK)
Agree Ruskie, but where ... perhaps surnames mistranscribed, must have been recorded in shorthand!

Edit to add ...

http://www.rootschat.com/links/099m/

JM

That looks like an interesting project JM. No mention of Nathaniel though.

I've also checked for Bry*son ... :-\
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 04:51 BST (UK): I have no clue if this is our Nathaniel's real father, but he does have the right name and he is in the right area to have known Mary Bryceson. :-\

I posted the 1841 on the timeline on Page 1 of Part 2 and have now followed him through the censuses:

1841 census
Great Quebec St, Marylebone
Nathaniel White 50 chairmaker N

1851 census
Thornton Place, Marylebone (mistranscribed as Wall White)
Nathl White head un 65 charimaker b Herts Watford

1861 census
6 Thornton Place, Marylebone
Nathaniel White head unmar 75 chair maker b Hertfordshire Watford

Death
Nathaniel White
died Oct 4th 1862
age 77 of 'old age'
St Marylebone, Westminster

:-\
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: majm on Thursday 22 July 10 05:19 BST (UK): :)

Ruskie

Wonder what Deb will think of this ...

Re Nathaniel White, death 4 Oct 1862. Possibly GRO Vol 1a page 343, and I think Poor Law Union's records are extant at Westminster City Archives Hope their archivist is following Part 4 thread and can check St Marylebone

JM
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 05:47 BST (UK): Hi JM,

I've just sent myself on a wild goose chase trying to find where the above Nathaniel White lived in the censuses.

I eventually found both Great Quebec St and Thornton Place. They are just around the corner from eachother, just off today's Marylebone Road a couple of streets away from the northern end of the famous Baker Street.

Today, Thornton Place appears to be mews cottages behind some lovely large terrace houses. Great Quebec Street, which is now an extension of Upper Montagu St is also a street of lovely huge posh houses. Hardly somewhere that a(n) (ex) pauper would live. :-\ Now I'm doubting that he is the right Nathaniel White.

Of course the street may have become gentrified over the years. I can't be sure of when they were built but the houses look old and I would say they may have been there in the 1840's .... :-\ I will try to investigate further.

It is approximately 1.7 miles from Dean St (Richmond Buildings) to Thornton Place.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 05:52 BST (UK): The 1841 census shows a huge number of pepole crammed into (a not very long) Great Quebec Street, so perhaps the housing wasn't so grand back then. Similar with Thornton Place, with several families appearing to live at each 'house number'. :-\

Righto - houses are Georgian so will have been there in the 1840's and will cost you around £4.5 million today! :o They would always have been big and lovely and expensive.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: majm on Thursday 22 July 10 05:54 BST (UK): ;) I can't help much further at the minute. I think I have a hardcopy 1880's London Directory in a trunk. Will be back in couple hours, off to get to that trunk. ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 05:59 BST (UK): Quote from: majm on Thursday 22 July 10 05:54 BST (UK)
;) I can't help much further at the minute. I think I have a hardcopy 1880's London Directory in a trunk. Will be back in couple hours, off to get to that trunk. ;D

ooh, that sounds exciting!
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Siamese Girl on Thursday 22 July 10 08:09 BST (UK): I'm just hoping Ann doesn't turn out to be 20 .........

Remember the cats meat man delivering to the wharf for the first time? I like to think it was because they had an expectant doggie mum and were giving her extra food.

Carole
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: MaryA on Thursday 22 July 10 09:15 BST (UK): Just logging into the new thread.

Nice to meet you Steve, wonderful that you got to see the diary. Revealing Ann's age gets my lurker's vote!

Mary
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: mouse49 on Thursday 22 July 10 09:45 BST (UK): I found this thread in May and ever since I check the diary first thing in the morning then look in here.

I just had to post, I can't stand the suspense any longer:P

Steven please tell us how old Ann is ::) ;D ;D

Lois :)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Steven Bryceson on Thursday 22 July 10 10:18 BST (UK): Good morning everyone. It is 10.15am here - after signing off just before midnight yesterday, I have since got my five children to school and done some work before getting a chance to write this message - my, you have all been busy through the night!

Well, here it is:

The entry for Friday 9th October - 'Ann Fox completes her 45th year. Met her in St James Park. Walked accompanied by her homeward.'

She was born in 1801!

I shall post more later - back to work for now.

Peace and joy,

Steven.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: mouse49 on Thursday 22 July 10 10:29 BST (UK): Steven, thank you :) :)

I keep forgetting people actually have a life, apart from genealogy ;D

Lois
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: avm228 on Thursday 22 July 10 10:32 BST (UK): Quote from: SteveBryceson on Thursday 22 July 10 10:18 BST (UK)
Good morning everyone. It is 10.15am here - after signing off just before midnight yesterday, I have since got my five children to school and done some work before getting a chance to write this message - my, you have all been busy through the night!

Well, here it is:

The entry for Friday 9th October - 'Ann Fox completes her 45th year. Met her in St James Park. Walked accompanied by her homeward.'

She was born in 1801!

I shall post more later - back to work for now.

Peace and joy,

Steven.

Excellent! A perfect match to the Ann FOX of Stephen St in 1841/1851 (for whom there was other corroborating material). If only she were not so coy about her marital status... ::)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 11:10 BST (UK): Thank you, oh thank you Steven! I will sleep well tonight. ;)

Now to find her birth! ;D

Deb is going to be ecstatic when she wakes up! Ann is the bane of her life at the moment! ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: tamarjay on Thursday 22 July 10 11:14 BST (UK): Hello Rootschatters ;D

I have been following this unfolding tale through all your wonderful posts for weeks and just had to say how much I have enjoyed it - reading the diary, then logging on to Rootschat to see all of you hard at work gathering information!

And how wonderful to have Steven here as well! (And for telling us how old Ann is :) )

What will we do when we run out of diary? :'( I dread to think, but for now I will continue to enjoy this adventure! ;D

Tamar
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Siamese Girl on Thursday 22 July 10 11:14 BST (UK): She's just 4 years younger than his own mother. Hmmmmmmmmm......... :o

Carole
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 11:17 BST (UK): Quote from: Siamese Girl on Thursday 22 July 10 11:14 BST (UK)
She's just 4 years younger than his own mother. Hmmmmmmmmm......... :o

Carole

I love it! ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: nestagj on Thursday 22 July 10 11:22 BST (UK): Just bookmarking the new thread - 45 yrs old !

N
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Daisy Loo on Thursday 22 July 10 11:50 BST (UK): hmmmm...not sure how I feel bout that...she's a real cougar then!!! ::) ;D

(Have been following the thread, no time these days to contribute! :( My OH was confirmed with a malignant melanoma, he's had his thumb removed, and now waiting on biopsy results! :-\ :'()

Was great to see the photo of you Stephen with the Diary! How cool to look at a book, and know that was your direct ancestor's thoughts and notes. Amazing :)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 12:51 BST (UK): Quote from: Daisy Loo on Thursday 22 July 10 11:50 BST (UK)

(Have been following the thread, no time these days to contribute! :( My OH was confirmed with a malignant melanoma, he's had his thumb removed, and now waiting on biopsy results! :-\ :'()

Oh Daisy - I'm SO sorry to hear this. :(
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 22 July 10 13:04 BST (UK): Morning all ...and what a great morning it is .... ;D

Yipppeeeee ... she was 45 ...we have the right Ann.

deb

Daisy ... that is so sad ...my thoughts are with you and OH
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 13:10 BST (UK): I don't think any of us can be too shocked about Ann's age - this is something we've known almost since the beginning. It's just been confirmed, that's all. ;D

I can't see an Ann Fox born 9th Oct 1801 on the IGI. There are a few Ann Foxes around the right time in the right area though. So where do we start looking for her? I've made a tentative start at St Anne Soho - the PR's are set out oddly and I might be missing something. Another thing we don't know is - is Fox her maiden or married name?
Steven can you help us with this? :-\

Ann seems to be a regular at Tottenham Court Road Chapel - is this because it is convenient or does she have ties to the place? I did some digging but am still a bit confused - it was also called Whitefields Tabernacle, it was enlarged and rebuilt over the years but was destroyed in WW2. Then rebuilt in 1957 and currently houses the London Lutheran Church and the American Church in London. I have no idea if there are any Parish Records for the chapel or where they are held if they still exist.

Morning Deb! ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 22 July 10 13:21 BST (UK): I wonder if this is Ann's death?

Ann Fox
Dec q 1874
age 74
Chelsea
1a 231

In 1861 There is an Ann Fox In Essex ..living as a widow.

As you say, Ruskie, we have no idea if this is her given name or if she was in actual fact married/widowed prior to meeting NB.

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 22 July 10 13:26 BST (UK): Ruskie

Ann seems to have spent most of her life at Stephen Street ... wasn't that Camden reg district? I'll search there for a birth.

I am leaning towards her being a spinster ::)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 13:28 BST (UK): Quote from: deb usa on Thursday 22 July 10 13:21 BST (UK)
I wonder if this is Ann's death?

Ann Fox
Dec q 1874
age 74
Chelsea
1a 231

In 1861 There is an Ann Fox In Essex ..living as a widow.

As you say, Ruskie, we have no idea if this is her given name or if she was in actual fact married/widowed prior to meeting NB.

deb

Um, it could be her death - age is right but not sure about area. (Of course she could have moved.) ;) I'm hoping Steven may know if there is any mention of Ann's marital status later in the diary, and maybe he will let us know so we don't go off on a wild goose chase. ;D

Have you looked for the 1861 Essex Ann Fox in any earlier censuses to eliminate her? :-\

Yes Ann seemed to hang around Steven St, but she says she was born Queen St. There are LOADS of them all over Greater London. I'm going to have anohter look at her in the 1841 and 1851 ...
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 22 July 10 13:42 BST (UK): Ruskie

I have just found a parish in Camden ....St George the Martyr, QUEEN ~~STREET~~ SQUARE ...having a look now ...

wish me luck

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 13:45 BST (UK): I've just had another look at Ann Fox in the 1851 census. Her place of birth still looks like 'Green St' or 'Queen St', but I had a look at a few other pages and none of them have such a specific place of birth - they seem to have the Parish rather than Street names. I know we've been over this already but I still I wonder if it could be something else? Does it look like the name of any known parish?

Also, can anyone read what is written for Ann in the "relationship to head" column. I have an idea what it says but would like others opinions. ;)

Just got the red warning. Good work Deb. I hope she's there. :)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Siamese Girl on Thursday 22 July 10 13:52 BST (UK): Daisy I'm really sorry to hear that - all my best wishes to you both. The search for Nathaniel looks very trivial in comparison.

Anyway, a search on the City of London burial index on Findmypast for the burial of Ann Fox born 1801 plus or minus 10 years only gives one possible match - Ann Fox buried St James Clerkenwell 16 June 1851 aged 52 from the workhouse.

Carole
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Siamese Girl on Thursday 22 July 10 14:05 BST (UK): There are 30 GRO deaths registered for Ann Fox in Middlesex between 1851-1865 before ages started to be included :(

Carole
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 22 July 10 14:28 BST (UK): Quote from: deb usa on Thursday 22 July 10 13:42 BST (UK)
Ruskie

I have just found a parish in Camden ....St George the Martyr, QUEEN ~~STREET~~ SQUARE ...having a look now ...

wish me luck

deb

Checked up until Dec 1812 in the above Parish (she may have had a late christening)...She's NOT there !!!!!

I think I will have to check all of Camden ...arrggggghhhhh ::)

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: forthefamily on Thursday 22 July 10 14:37 BST (UK): Quote from: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 13:45 BST (UK)
I've just had another look at Ann Fox in the 1851 census. Her place of birth still looks like 'Green St' or 'Queen St', but I had a look at a few other pages and none of them have such a specific place of birth - they seem to have the Parish rather than Street names. I know we've been over this already but I still I wonder if it could be something else? Does it look like the name of any known parish?

Also, can anyone read what is written for Ann in the "relationship to head" column. I have an idea what it says but would like others opinions. ;)

Just got the red warning. Good work Deb. I hope she's there. :)

~~#45.~~ #44....Ann Fox, Lodger, age 49. Charwoman, Queen/Green ??? Street....no marital status given or indicated.
(living in same building as Mary Eliz Kennington) at 27, Stephen Street, Saint Pancras, London, Marylebone, Tottenham Court.

Daisy...I'm so sorry about your OH :(

mab
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 14:42 BST (UK): Quote from: Forthefamily on Thursday 22 July 10 14:37 BST (UK)
Ann Fox, Lodger, age 49. Charwoman, Queen/Green ??? Street....no marital status given or indicated.
living with Mary Eliz Kennington at 27, Stephen Street, Saint Pancras, London, Marylebone, Tottenham Court.
mab

Yes, I thought it was lodger too. What do those lines mean between Ann, Mrs Kennington and Mr Burns? Mr Burns is "head" and they're all at No 27 (along with many others). Perhaps seperate rooms?

Maybe we should wait till Steven comes back - I'm hoping he might be able to tell us if Fox is Ann's maiden name.

I suspect you're right about us having to check every church in every parish Deb. I wonder if anyone at Westminster Archives knows more about Ann? :-\
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: forthefamily on Thursday 22 July 10 14:46 BST (UK): Its says Mr Burn is "head" at # 43 and Mary E K is #44 so Ann maybe sublets a part of Mary E's lodging space...so each of those numbers at 27 St Stephen represents rooms.

mab
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: forthefamily on Thursday 22 July 10 14:51 BST (UK): Deb...from looking at previous pages etc those numbers/lines seem to be assigned by the enumerator as a way of identifying "households' and or individuals within the buildings.

mab
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 14:55 BST (UK): Yes, that makes sense mab.

I'm signing off now. Happy hunting everyone. Looking forward to tomorrow's diary entry - maybe Nat will give us a progress report on the puppies. ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 22 July 10 15:12 BST (UK): Night Ruskie , sleep tight ;D

Hi mab ...thanks for that ..I think when I posted those census details a thousand years ago I was just so very excited to have found her. The diary refers to both Mrs Kennington and Miss Olive ...strange thing was that we couldn't find Mrs Kennington in 1841.

We were also curious as to why NB would read his log book (of the previous year) to Mrs Ollive/Olive.

Deb wearing searching tiara ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: forthefamily on Thursday 22 July 10 15:22 BST (UK): Quote from: deb usa on Thursday 22 July 10 13:21 BST (UK)
I wonder if this is Ann's death?

Ann Fox
Dec q 1874
age 74
Chelsea
1a 231

In 1861 There is an Ann Fox In Essex ..living as a widow.

As you say, Ruskie, we have no idea if this is her given name or if she was in actual fact married/widowed prior to meeting NB.

deb

Deb there is an Ann Fox living in Chelsea in 1871 but she is married (husband William) and her place of birth is given as Norfolk....... :-\

mab
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: forthefamily on Thursday 22 July 10 15:40 BST (UK): Deb...I see the Ann Fox that you are referring to in 1861 and she seems to be the only one....what is her profession ???....Bibb Woman ??? Bibl :P

Anyway........if she dies between 1851 and 1861 there are way too many possibles.

mab
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 22 July 10 16:00 BST (UK): mab ,..... she is driving me NUTS!!!!

at the moment I am still trawling through baptisms;;

This is what I have already done for the Camden area:

Fitroy Chapel St Pancras
Percy Chapel St Pancras
St Saviour, St Pancras
St George The Martyr, Queen Square
and am on St George Bloomsbury
still have a few to go ................................. :-\

I am going up til the 1812 entries as she may have been baptised as a child. ::) :-\

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Steven Bryceson on Thursday 22 July 10 16:53 BST (UK): Dear all,

It is worth considering that Ann was a member of the non-conformist Tottenham Court Rd Chapel in 1846 so may not have had a CofE baptism. I wonder how NB knew her - from chapel perhaps or did she work (as a chambermaid) for Granny Shepard) or live near others he knew? I onky scanned the rest of the diary yesterday, partly because I want it to unfold as it is with all of us on a daily basis. I didn't see anything about Ann's marital status.

Peace,

Steven.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Steven Bryceson on Thursday 22 July 10 17:18 BST (UK): This looks like a fabulous resource -

http://www.open.ac.uk/Arts/building-on-history-project/index.html
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Steven Bryceson on Thursday 22 July 10 22:55 BST (UK): Dear all, In response to an earlier point, it is the Minutes of Guardians of St Marylebone, 28 April 1826, Accounts of Edward Biggs, Overseer, which make reference to cash paid apprehending Valentine Simmons, Joseph Jacobs and Nath. White for barstardy £1.11s.6d. Peace, Steven.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 22 July 10 23:14 BST (UK): Hi Steven

I like the link you posted earlier.

Finding Ann Fox is like a finding a needle in a haystack ...although I Love her ...I need more patience in order to go through the baptisms. You had mentioned that she went to a non-conformist chapel ...could she have been baptised CofE and decided to go her own way or did you have to be brought up like that ...my history regarding this subject is spotty to say the least. :-\

re: the Bastardy order .... were all 3 men apprehended for one child ...I see bastardy orders on NA all the time especially for Cornish people and have yet to see what you have ...this is new to me ... maybe I am being an ignoramus here ... ::)

deb

added ... just realised that Edward Biggs was doing a job of apprehending fathers of illegitimate children ...duh!
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 23:28 BST (UK): Good morning/evening everyone. :)

Quote from: SteveBryceson on Thursday 22 July 10 22:55 BST (UK)
Dear all, In response to an earlier point, it is the Minutes of Guardians of St Marylebone, 28 April 1826, Accounts of Edward Biggs, Overseer, which make reference to cash paid apprehending Valentine Simmons, Joseph Jacobs and Nath. White for barstardy £1.11s.6d. Peace, Steven.

Thanks for this Steven (and for telling us that you don't know Ann's marital status ;)).

Doesn't this look interesting? It would be well worth investigating. I have no knowledge or experience researching this kind of thing - does anyone have any ideas how to go about it? Are these the records that are held at Kew Steven?

I'm not sure I really understand what it is though:
Is this the accounts of Edward Biggs and how much it cost him to chase up these chaps to get money from them to pay for their illegitimate children? This is not the actual detail of the Bastardy Bond is it? If this is correct, then does anyone know how to go about looking for the Bastardy Bond or Bastardy Order.

I found this which seems to explain it quite well if, like me, you don't have much knowledge about this:

"A Bastardy Bond was the usual method by which the Parish Overseers ensured that illegitimate children did not have to be provided for out of the Parish Rates. The natural father might seal a Bond for a certain sums of money to be paid to the Churchwardens and Overseers of the Poor of the Parish, if he failed to provide for ‘the future Maintenance, Education, Nourishment and bringing up of the said Bastard Child….’ the Parish officials might take certain action. If the father was not very well off, or unreliable, another person might be included as a Guarantor.

Another method was for the Parish authorities to get a Bastardy Order, signed by two Justices of the Peace, ordering the unmarried father to pay a weekly fixed sum to the Overseers (not directly to the mother)."

How great would it be to find this? ;D

(our posts just crossed Deb - I see we are thinking along the same lines. I did post a little about the Tottenham Court Chapel yesterday but the denomination wasn't specified though I guessed it was not CofE due to it being called a Chapel? Am I off the mark thinking this?)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Siamese Girl on Thursday 22 July 10 23:29 BST (UK): Out of interest William son of Hannah Lynn and Valentine Simmons, with workhouse and pauper given as place and occupation - although it isn't clear which of them that refers to (just like Nathaniel's baptism) was baptised Feb 24 1826 St Marylebone. I couldn't see any illegitimate births with Joseph Jacobs named as father.

Carole
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 23:36 BST (UK): Quote from: Siamese Girl on Thursday 22 July 10 23:29 BST (UK)
Out of interest William son of Hannah Lynn and Valentine Simmons, with workhouse and pauper given as place and occupation - although it isn't clear which of them that refers to (just like Nathaniel's baptism) was baptised Feb 24 1826 St Marylebone. I couldn't see any illegitimate births with Joseph Jacobs named as father.
Carole

Great find Carole.

Added: Great link Steven - this could be very useful. London parishes and churches are really confusing ... :-\
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Siamese Girl on Thursday 22 July 10 23:42 BST (UK): The money would have been paid to the overseer to track down the fathers. The idea was to get the woman to confess the name of the father before the baby was born - as Nat was born 5 June 1826 and the accounts date from April it must mean Nathaniel White was acknowledged as father before the birth - but if he was in the workhouse and a pauper there wouldn't be much point in trying to get him to pay ???

Carole
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 22 July 10 23:56 BST (UK): Quote from: Siamese Girl on Thursday 22 July 10 23:42 BST (UK)
The money would have been paid to the overseer to track down the fathers. The idea was to get the woman to confess the name of the father before the baby was born - as Nat was born 5 June 1826 and the accounts date from April it must mean Nathaniel White was acknowledged as father before the birth - but if he was in the workhouse and a pauper there wouldn't be much point in trying to get him to pay ???

Carole

He wouldn't have fibbed about being in the Workhouse to avoid being chased for payments would he?

And does tht mean that if Nathaniel didn't pay then there would be no further record of him? If he did pay, might there be something? ANything? A little clue is all we need ... :-\
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 22 July 10 23:57 BST (UK): Steven ...

NATHANIEL BRYCESON:

Baptised: Nathaniel WHITE
Son of: MARY BRYSON and Nathaniel WHITE
Born: 4 June 1826 (Work house)
Chr: 4 July

would the parish being looking for Nathaniel White BEFORE Nathaniel White/Bryceson was born ...??
Quote from: SteveBryceson on Thursday 22 July 10 22:55 BST (UK)
Dear all, In response to an earlier point, it is the Minutes of Guardians of St Marylebone, 28 April 1826, Accounts of Edward Biggs, Overseer, which make reference to cash paid apprehending Valentine Simmons, Joseph Jacobs and Nath. White for barstardy £1.11s.6d. Peace, Steven.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Friday 23 July 10 00:00 BST (UK): Hi Carole ...thanks ...you cleared up my post with your previous one ... I think LOL

morning Ruskie ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 23 July 10 00:02 BST (UK): Can anyone remember who else used to attend the Tottenham Court Road Chapel or was it just Ann?

Where are London non-conformist records held?
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 23 July 10 00:06 BST (UK): I've just answered my own question. According to Genuki:

The majority of historical church records for London and Middlesex are held by four repositories:

•London Metropolitan Archives hold records for most Anglican parishes in Middlesex, though the registers for a few ancient parishes have not been deposited, and some are elsewhere. They also have a wide range of 19th and 20th century non-conformist records. All registers held at LMA are listed on the London Generations Database.

•Guildhall Library holds records for most Anglican parishes in the City of London, and some of the Middlesex parishes that adjoin the City.

•The City of Westminster Archives Centre holds records for most Anglican parishes in the former Metropolitan Borough of Westminster (corresponding to the southern part of the current City of Westminster), though some from this area are not deposited and others are at LMA.

•The National Archives hold registers from non-conformist and non-parochial Anglican churches and chapels surrendered to the Non-parochial Registers Commissions of 1837 and 1857.

•The Westminster Abbey Library & Muniment Room holds records for a few Anglican churches in Westminster.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Friday 23 July 10 00:07 BST (UK): ummm not sure Ruskie ...I know that Mrs S attended the Jewry one ...as you can tell I am not up on chapels vs churches etc..... did NB go with Ann to the Tottenham Court Chapel .... maybe we need to reread the diary AGAIN ... new things are awlays being questioned ...which is great.

Wasn't there a good friend of Mary , Nat's mum, who would bring her stuff ... Ann otherwise Eliza?

BTW I just chopped my fringe I have decided I would like a Coco Chanel Look ...LOL ::) 8) ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 23 July 10 00:19 BST (UK): Now you're asking Deb. It might have been that Nat went to Chapel with Ann - I know it has been mentioned (a few times?) before and I was just wondering if people stuck to their own religions and churches or they just went anywhere that was local. I remember that Mrs S travelled a long way to her church - a poor old lady walking all that way and being followed home by a 19 year old. ;)

Yes, Mary's friend what's her name? Common surname ... :-[ You looked everywhere for her Deb - we even had the address where she worked - St James something? She wasn't to be found.

Quote from: deb usa on Friday 23 July 10 00:07 BST (UK)
BTW I just chopped my fringe I have decided I would like a Coco Chanel Look ...LOL ::) 8) ;D

you'll have to wear a wig if you intend to play Ann - I'm sure she didn't have a Coco Chanel fringe. ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Friday 23 July 10 00:27 BST (UK): ;D ;D ;D

I am sure if Ann knew who Coco Chanel was she would have been Coco's Advertisement ...perfume, clothes. hair, pearls LOL ...... Blimey ... do you realise we are discussing people who actually lived ... I wonder what it was like to be her ....

deb

added ...I know that sounded insane ...but really ..they had a "now' as do we....
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 23 July 10 00:47 BST (UK): Quote from: deb usa on Friday 23 July 10 00:27 BST (UK)
;D ;D ;D

I am sure if Ann knew who Coco Chanel was she would have been Coco's Advertisement ...perfume, clothes. hair, pearls LOL ...... Blimey ... do you realise we are discussing people who actually lived ... I wonder what it was like to be her ....

deb

added ...I know that sounded insane ...but really ..they had a "now' as do we....

So you see ANn as being glamourous? She must have had something going for her to keep Nathaniel interested. ;)

You're not at all insane wondering these things Deb. We know a lot more about these people than most of us do about our own ancestors - thanks to Nathaniel. :) He has brought them to life. Even the tiniest little detail he reveals helps us to understand them and the times they lived in. It's great! Thanks Nathaniel! Although I'm sure he'd die of embarassment if he knew the world was reading his shorthand, it gives us even more of an insight.

I was wondering if Nathaniel got the idea about writing the 'personal details' in shorthand from Samuel Pepys? I'll bet he read Pepys Diary. :)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: karenlee on Friday 23 July 10 01:19 BST (UK): You guys.... ::) ::) ::) ::)

Of course we all wonder about the same stuff.... that's why we are here.

Just thinking about Ann and what it was about her that had "our" Nathaniel well and truly hooked.

Karenlee
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 23 July 10 01:35 BST (UK): No diary entry for today - pooey!

I've got some horrible chores to do now :'(, but will return later.

C'mon Karen, you're one of the great finders, I reckon you can find Mrs Kennington in 1841. In fact I think you'll be able to find Mary Bryceson, Nat's mum too. ;D And her friend Ann/Eliza whatshername ... In fact we don't even have Nathaniel (for certain) in 1841, though I'm quitely confident he is with the Vaggs at Richmond Buildings ;D

Bye ..... ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: karenlee on Friday 23 July 10 01:41 BST (UK): Doing his in between loads of washing... fingers crossed I manage the stairs without mishaps this time :o :o :o :o

One entry did intrigue me a while back and I did some digging about the Hon Mrs Wyndham who had been swindled by Mr G Lea.... that was fun.

Okay, I'll start hunting in 1841 for them.

Karenlee
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: karenlee on Friday 23 July 10 02:06 BST (UK): Had a feeling that I'd seen this on one of the threads previously, but was too lazy to go back and read the lot of them all over again... :-[

So.... if it's not new then sorry...

Christening Record
Westminster London
KENNINGTON Mary Elizabeth
Born 15 July 1787
Baptised 2 Dec 1787
Father = John KENNINGTON
Mother = Martha
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Friday 23 July 10 02:49 BST (UK): hi

I will go back and find Ann aka Eliza and anyone else that may be friends of the family ...but that may have to wait as it's getting late here

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: waiteohman on Friday 23 July 10 05:55 BST (UK): Mary Elizabeth could be the one living at Homer Row, Marylebone. Living alone marked ind (independent). Indexed as Sunington. 1841 census HO107, Piece 679, Book 10, Folio 7, page 6.

Linda
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 23 July 10 06:43 BST (UK): Quote from: karenlee on Friday 23 July 10 02:06 BST (UK)

Had a feeling that I'd seen this on one of the threads previously, but was too lazy to go back and read the lot of them all over again... :-[

So.... if it's not new then sorry...

Christening Record
Westminster London
KENNINGTON Mary Elizabeth
Born 15 July 1787
Baptised 2 Dec 1787
Father = John KENNINGTON
Mother = Martha

Um - not sure that we have seen this. :) It looks good. She is unmarried on the 1851 census but didn't Nat refer to her as Mrs Kennington?

I think I am going to have to re-read the diary.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 23 July 10 06:47 BST (UK): Quote from: karenlee on Friday 23 July 10 01:41 BST (UK)

One entry did intrigue me a while back and I did some digging about the Hon Mrs Wyndham who had been swindled by Mr G Lea.... that was fun.

Karenlee

Can you post your findings please Karen? ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 23 July 10 06:48 BST (UK): Quote from: waiteohman on Friday 23 July 10 05:55 BST (UK)
Mary Elizabeth could be the one living at Homer Row, Marylebone. Living alone marked ind (independent). Indexed as Sunington. 1841 census HO107, Piece 679, Book 10, Folio 7, page 6.
Linda

Will check this in a minute. Thanks Linda. :)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: karenlee on Friday 23 July 10 06:56 BST (UK): Quote from: Ruskie on Friday 23 July 10 06:47 BST (UK)

Can you post your findings please Karen? ;D

Sure can Ruskie.... will have to find out what I did with it all... didn't really expect to need it again... ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 23 July 10 06:57 BST (UK): No rush Karen - and if you've lost them it doesn't matter. ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: karenlee on Friday 23 July 10 07:02 BST (UK): Oh no, they are not lost... just hiding in the mass of stuff inhabiting my computer ;D ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: karenlee on Friday 23 July 10 07:10 BST (UK): From memory the Hon Mary WYNDHAM was Lady Leconfield.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: karenlee on Friday 23 July 10 07:46 BST (UK): Okay.. I think that this is the one NB was referring to in his diary..

1841 Census England London
4 Gosvenor Square
WYNDHAM
Lord Geo 50 Ind N
Mary 45 N
Fanny 20 N
Helen 15 N
Blanche 14 N
Caroline 11 N
Henry 10 N
Percy 6 N
Constance 4 N

The list of servants covers almost one and a half pages.

It appears that they come from Sussex as all the other documents regarding them speak of Petworth House in Sussex.

They were married into or related to some of the more prominent families of the time. I think that the man who tried to pull one over them was either remarkably stupid or remarkably brave. Which ever he was, I doubt that he succeeded.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 23 July 10 08:03 BST (UK): Thanks Karen.
Oh they look very posh - living in Grosvenor Square! :o. Gorgeous! (worth checking out on google maps)
Yes, George Lea's business went belly up - be interesting to know if the Wyndhams realised they'd been duped. I expect the servants dealt with all that stuff.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: avm228 on Friday 23 July 10 08:32 BST (UK): Quote from: Ruskie on Friday 23 July 10 06:43 BST (UK)

Um - not sure that we have seen this. :) It looks good. She is unmarried on the 1851 census but didn't Nat refer to her as Mrs Kennington?

I think I am going to have to re-read the diary.

I'm not exactly sure what the etiquette would have been in the 1840s, but certainly in earlier times unmarried ladies of a certain age were called "Mrs" as a mark of respect, regardless of their marital status.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Siamese Girl on Friday 23 July 10 08:40 BST (UK): Quote from: avm228 on Friday 23 July 10 08:32 BST (UK)
Quote from: Ruskie on Friday 23 July 10 06:43 BST (UK)

Um - not sure that we have seen this. :) It looks good. She is unmarried on the 1851 census but didn't Nat refer to her as Mrs Kennington?

I think I am going to have to re-read the diary.

I'm not exactly sure what the etiquette would have been in the 1840s, but certainly in earlier times unmarried ladies of a certain age were called "Mrs" as a mark of respect, regardless of their marital status.

Anyone watch the TV series Upstairs Downstairs? It was set in Edwardian London and Mrs Bridges the cook was unmarried. The courtesy title "Mrs" lasted a long time.

Carole
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: karenlee on Friday 23 July 10 09:33 BST (UK): The New Peerages and Baronetcies Whitehall April 11

Colonel George Wyndham of Petworth in the county of Sussex by the name style and title of Baron Leconfield of Leconfield in the East Riding of the county of York.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Daisy Loo on Friday 23 July 10 09:35 BST (UK): Thanks guys :) :-* :-*

Trivial or not...NB is sucking me in again! ::) Especially with all this new stuff. I might just read his diary again! LOL a welcome distraction!
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Siamese Girl on Friday 23 July 10 09:36 BST (UK): If anyone wants to tackle Pepys's diary it is being published on the net with an entry a day http://www.pepysdiary.com/about/ but it's more difficult to wade through that Nat's ;D I've only ever read small chunks of Pepys. I know ought to read more.

Diaries are always fascinating. Pepys was quite important political figure, but I find political machinations dull. Diaries of ordinary people are much more interesting because they tell you about real every day life - the lives that were lived by most people's ancestors. I should have been born in the eighteenth century because that's the era that fascinates me the most and I do spend a lot of time researching the life of the diarist Parson James Woodforde, a diary kept every day from 1759-1802. You can pick up a paperback of his diary for next to nothing on http://www.abebooks.co.uk/. The problem with it is that it condenses over 40 years of diary into one volume, so you lose the flow of his life but it is a taster. The diary of Thomas Turner a Sussex shopkeeper kept 1754-1765 is a gem. He was also overseer in his village, so if you want to know about how the poor law actually worked and the lengths they went to to chase up the fathers of illegitimate babies, Thomas Turner is your man. The diary of Sarah Hurst kept from 1759-1762 is a gem. She was the daughter of a Sussex tailor and it gives a very rare glimpse into the mind of an ordinary 20 something young woman who lived some 250 years ago.

Carole
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: steve_gus on Friday 23 July 10 10:37 BST (UK): A few misc comments :

The great coal delivery rip-off read to me like the butler was involved in the deal, in which case as he was head of the servants (if it follows the lines of upstairs downstairs!) he would have been in a good position to conceal the dodgy deal.

The Bastardy order - so Labours Child Support Agency (CSA) was nothing new :)

Ann - I like her as a character in the diary - from the little we really know of her - but a 45 year old Charlady currently has me thinking of her as along the lines of Andy Capps wife Flo or Hilda Ogden of coronation St Soap. Perhaps 9th August will put my mind back on track. ;)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 23 July 10 13:11 BST (UK): Thanks for explaining reason she was "Mrs" Kennington. :) Yes, I saw Upstairs Downstairs and loved it.

Daisy, Carole has provided you with a lot more ideas for distractions! I must check those out Carole. I'm sure Pepys would be hard work, but his diary is famous for his eyewitness account of the Great Fire of London. Those are the bits I'd be interested in reading. I believe he wrote about his affairs in shorthand. ;)

Another one is the diary of William Boghurst, a doctor during the Great Plague of London. The made a rather good TV programme from it.

Steve_gus, try to think of Ann as a glamorous spinster. She was a Female Servant on the 1841 census so you might be better to think of her in this role. Whatever you do, don't google 'charwoman' images. ;D You might be right that 'the butler did it' regarding the great coal delivery rip-off. ;D (love that phrase)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: nestagj on Friday 23 July 10 20:35 BST (UK): Been offline since this time last night - the whole exchange went down so have only just managed to catch up now - haven't you all been busy ! Withdrawal symptoms here !!!

Don't talk to me about non-conformists have just spent the afternoon at the local record office and I have three generations of my mum's family - her grand father, his father and his father and various children and spouses - in fact all of them ! buried in a local church but we have no baptisms or marriages ! grrrrrrr and to make it even worse the children born between 1850 and 1865 were not registered either !

Ah well back to the drawing board - but it was lovely - they were the original registers - mmm the smell as you opened the register and no white gloves !

N
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: alpinecottage on Friday 23 July 10 21:01 BST (UK): Quote from: Ruskie on Friday 23 July 10 13:11 BST (UK)
I'm sure Pepys would be hard work, but his diary is famous for his eyewitness account of the Great Fire of London. Those are the bits I'd be interested in reading. I believe he wrote about his affairs in shorthand. ;)

I had a look at Pepys Diary last night - the naughty bits were written in French/Italian/Spanish, but fairly easy to work out eg I put my mano on su cosa, where mano is hand and cosa is thing. However, he was a lot more descriptive than NB and apparently a lot more promiscuous. Be warned - not for the faint-hearted! However, I did wonder if that was where NB got his idea for a similar diary from...or maybe it's just common-sense to write in some sort of code.

As regards what Ann and NB saw in each other, well, there are a few young men today who have relationships with women old enough to be their mothers, so I suppose there will always be individuals who have unconventional relationships :-\
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: karenlee on Friday 23 July 10 23:24 BST (UK): Quote from: alpinecottage link=topic=469736.msg3301550#msg3301550 I suppose there will always be individuals who have unconventional relationships :-\
[quote

Yep... I married a Kiwi and that's about as bad as it gets at this time of year here in Oz... Bledisloe Cup time ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: waiteohman on Saturday 24 July 10 05:33 BST (UK): Mrs S. -> Mrs.. Schlencker (possibility m.s. Wood)

From the Edmonton and Tottenham Congressional Chapel conformist records, image 13 - "Miss Wood (Mrs. Schlencker's sister) married Mar 25, 1826"

On Free BMD there are potential female deaths for Mrs. Schlencker. In the 1850s there are female given names of Mary Ann, Georgina Isabella, Louisa and Margaret Schlenker in 1848. Then if she lived longer ... Anyway some potential names to start looking for.
Margaret is a good possibility - b. 1773 bur 19 Nov 1848, Parish St. Mary Hampton. Caspar Schlenker b. 1762 bur 30 Sep 1849 same parish. 1841 in Hampton, Mdx Casper Schlenker age 75 shoe maker residing Thomas St born foreign parts. Don't see Mrs S with him. Omited or out on a visit and maybe from foreign parts Caspar couldn't understand the enumerator's questions. :-\
x Georgiana Isabella Schlencker / Schloncker b. ABT 1832 bur. 3 Mar 1855. Now looking for Mary Ann & Louisa's burial records - not so easy to see at the moment.

Or could she have lived past the 1859s - doubtful but possible.

Linda
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: waiteohman on Saturday 24 July 10 05:41 BST (UK): Just a note the Edmonton and Tottenham Congressional Chapel conformist records I didn't view thoroughly. Maybe she's mentioned again. A bit of work looking at these records. Good night and away for the weekend. Happy hunting.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Siamese Girl on Saturday 24 July 10 08:52 BST (UK): Linda - you may be onto something! I've wondered about Schlencker (along with just about every other surname beginning with "S)

There is an 1824 PCC will of a George Schlencker transcribed on the web. No wife mentioned so she must have died previously. Three sons Thomas, Jacob and George. George was a sugar refiner of Crombies Row Commercial Road East, and the will was translated from the French which might give a clue about where that family came from. He is probably the same George who married Mary Touse at St Mary Whitechapel in 1782

All three sons carried on sugar refining Thomas (a widower) married Sarah Martin in 1818. I can't see marriages for Jacob and George but Jacob/Ann and George/Sarah were all having children in the 1810s/20s.

Carole
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 24 July 10 09:53 BST (UK): I hate the weekends - no time for research. It's almost 7pm and this is the first time I've had a chance to pop in to see what's happened today. :-\

Just want to quickly tell you Carole that I had a look at Thomas Turner's diary online last night. It's got me interested already - I like the entries where he says that he went to bed drunk. ;D I might buy Sarah Hurst's though I already know what happens in the end (she gets her man).

Yes alpine, I've not read the diary , but I believe that Samuel Pepys was a VERY naughty boy. :o

I remember you mentioned Schlencker quite some time ago Carole. It could be worth delving further. Might this possible European connection fit in with the church Mrs S attends?
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Siamese Girl on Sunday 25 July 10 08:39 BST (UK): I haven't got any further, but it did make me think how different our two worlds are. Then people only used surnames - even to the extent that someone might call their married sister Mrs Smith (or whatever her name was). Miss Wood and Mrs Schlencker really aren't very helpful. A LOT of people called Miss Wood got married in church in 1846. Today we just seem to use first names. My new neighbours just introduced themselves by their first names. It was only when I took a package in for them a year later that I learnt their surname.

Carole
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Dinkydidy on Monday 26 July 10 01:16 BST (UK): Nat must be the equivalent of today's "gym junkies"!! Out all day, walking 30 miles, gets home, is presumably a bit bored because Granny's not home, and what does he do? Goes for another walk! :o :o :o

What it is to be young and fit!! (And no TV, of course. ;) )

You would think he must have VERY strong boots, but he mentions elsewhere just walking in his smart new shoes. Must wear out a lot of shoe leather on those rough old roads!

Didy
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 26 July 10 01:22 BST (UK): Amazing wasn't he Didy? :) It must have passed the time and I suppose a leisurely 12 1/2 hour stroll on a nice day looking at interesting things along the way wouldn't be too much of an effort. ;) ;D

I originally wondered why he and Ann met in the morning then parted, but I imagine that Ann had more sense and didn't relish the idea of spending her Sunday on a 30 mile walk. :) I also wonder why he didn't put his evening meeting with Ann in shorthand. (perhaps a mistake by the 'translators'? :-\)

At least in today's entry we have a few names to investigater further, unfortunately Nat is polite and calls them 'Miss' - so makes the search difficult for us.

[Deb! Ann/Eliza Thomas is visiting Mary again! :)]
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 26 July 10 01:32 BST (UK): Well it seems there is no such surname as "Manodes" - neither in the censuses or on Freebmd .... :-\

I wonder if this might be "Vineyard Lodge"?:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/09ay/

;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: forthefamily on Monday 26 July 10 02:07 BST (UK): Hey he was walking in my old neighbourhood.........last time I was there was about 20 years ago.

"At half past 7 o’clock through Lambeth, Battersea, Wandsworth, ...."

My brother was born in Battersea and I was born in Wandsworth ;D

mab
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 26 July 10 06:40 BST (UK): Quote from: Forthefamily on Monday 26 July 10 02:07 BST (UK)
Hey he was walking in my old neighbourhood.........last time I was there was about 20 years ago.

"At half past 7 o’clock through Lambeth, Battersea, Wandsworth, ...."

mab

;D

I've been trying to track down Vineyard Lodge. I just googled the name, and found mention of it on the 1881 census with a Sedgwwick family living there. He was a 'laundryman' so I was unsure if this is the right place. I originally thought it would be too posh for a laundryman to be living there, but looking at his neighbours in the census, some of them are artists, foreman etc, so maybe this is the right Vineyard Lodge. I had a look at the neighbours in the 1881 and found some streets which still exist today - such as Paradise Road, The Hermitage, Red Lion Street and others ... There is also a road called The Vineyard and Halford St which makes me think I might be on the right track as there is a Vineyard Lodge and a Halford House on the 1881. ;D
My list according to the 1881 enumerators walk:
Paradise Rd
Suffield House
Eton Lodge
Eton Tce
Vestry Cott
Halford Place
Vineyard Lodge
Halford House
Church Coll
Church Tce
The Hermitage
Church House
Red Lion St
Long's Cottages
Red Lion St
Prospect Place
Red Lion St
etc
(some lovely houses on some of the streets ... :))

Can anyone find Vineyard Lodge in 1841 /51 to see who was living there? The path may be different in 1851.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: forthefamily on Monday 26 July 10 06:53 BST (UK): What census district number did the Sedgewick family live in 1881 ???.......give us the census reference points........although that probably wouldn't be relevant in 1841/1851 but it would be a starting point.

mab
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 26 July 10 07:24 BST (UK): There are a Vineyard Prospect Lodge and a Vineyard House on Vineyard in Richmond in 1851.

Immediately before them in the census there is a girls' school named Mount Ararat Lodge

HO107/1605 154 2 and 155 4
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Steven Bryceson on Monday 26 July 10 07:37 BST (UK): Dear all, Great entry today - I am off to walk 30 miles over two days, today and tomorrow; I feel light-weight compared to my 3x great grandfather NB! Like him, I'll be taking in plenty of churches but it Essex - on the fabulous Essex Way, today walking from West Bergholt to Manningtree through what is known as Constable Country! Interesting that my Nan says her grandfather (NB's youngest son Henry) was known for going everywhere on his bicycle and was known as "iron legs". Peace and joy to all, Steven.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 26 July 10 07:45 BST (UK): Mason's Court Guide & Directory for Brentford, Kew etc etc for 1853 has a Miss Kershaw running a school at Vineyard Lodge, Richmond Church
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 26 July 10 07:48 BST (UK): 1851 Miss Elizabeth Kershaw school mistress at Vineyard Lodge HO107/1605 163 21
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 26 July 10 07:55 BST (UK): In 1841 one of the pupils at Vineyard Lodge is Mary Nodes aged 5 - Miss M A Nodes perhaps?
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 26 July 10 08:00 BST (UK): Sorted - "Miss Manodes" or "Miss M A N" is Mary Ann Nodes
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Siamese Girl on Monday 26 July 10 08:21 BST (UK): Miss Manodes ? Is this some joke of Nat's or has it been miss-transcribed? Miss M A N makes complete sense as Mary Ann Nodes.

Is she a daughter of Nat's first employer Henry Nodes the undertaker? I thought none of his children survived?

Carole
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Siamese Girl on Monday 26 July 10 08:27 BST (UK): Yup 1841 census of Vineyard Lodge there is Mary Nodes aged 5 one of Miss Kershaw's pupils - well that explains why she wasn't with her parents on the 1841 census. Off to boarding school at 5!

Carole
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 26 July 10 08:37 BST (UK): Mary Ann Nodes daughter of Henry Oliver Nodes of Chapel Street, undertaker, born 26 June 1836, baptised St Pancras on 20 July
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Siamese Girl on Monday 26 July 10 10:52 BST (UK): Mary Ann Nodes is difficult to find on the census. However I think she married Alfred Nodes in 1867 (Free BMD) and then as a widow she married John Sumner Barton, a widower 28 September 1878 St John Hackey. She named her father as Henry Oliver Nodes undertaker, so its definitely her.

Alfred Nodes appears as a baby on the 1841 census as the son of George Nodes undertaker. George (Alfred) Nodes married Maria Barton 5 May 1840 St Pancras. I guess that's what they call keeping it in the family!

Carole
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 26 July 10 11:10 BST (UK): Shaun and Carole. Great finds both of you! ;D

Manodes. What the?! Surely a transcription error or misinterpretation of some sort? I hope Westminster Archives are reading this so they can check to see where the error was made.

I hope you enjoy your walk Steven. It sounds like you will be enjoying some lovely countryside. I must check google maps to see where you're headed. :)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Monday 26 July 10 13:12 BST (UK): Hi all

Great searchiung, guys ...LOL Manodes ::)

Maybe Mrs S is actually Mrs S Kirricker or Mrs S K Ricker ;D

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 26 July 10 13:44 BST (UK): Quote
Mary Ann Nodes is difficult to find on the census

In 1861, I think she's in lodgings in Prittlewell in Essex, occupation assistant mistress. Indexed as Mary Ann Nocks. RG9/1084/16/25.

And in 1871 at 45 Arthur Road, Islington with Alfred and two children RG10/299/63/59
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 26 July 10 15:29 BST (UK): I found some Nodes's ( ;)) - I think it must have been back in Part 1 or 2? Yes, Carole, loads of his kids died. I remember one was moved and re-buried in a different cemetery with a sibling that died later. :(
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: waiteohman on Tuesday 27 July 10 00:48 BST (UK): Hello

James Robinson's daughter born July 24th Pimlico was Charlotte. In 1851 the family is living 22 Bell Street and James is a widower. Mother of child may have been Sarah and the family lived on Narrow Street, Parish St Ann, Limehouse in 1841.

Linda
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: waiteohman on Tuesday 27 July 10 00:55 BST (UK): Hi Carole

Quote from: Siamese Girl on Saturday 24 July 10 08:52 BST (UK)
I've wondered about Schlencker (along with just about every other surname beginning with "S)

Does look promising. I wonder if there may be a Wood grandaughter for ~~Paul~~ (John ;)) Bunyan to possibly back this up.

Linda
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Tuesday 27 July 10 01:30 BST (UK): (you mean John Bunyan Linda ;)) I did look for James Robinson last week but wasn't sure which was the right one. Are they in Commercial Road in 1841?

Not much news today from Nathaniel's world. If he'd waited till next weekend he could've caught the train to Richmond and back instead of walking for 12 hours. ;D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_early_British_railway_companies

I would also like an update on the puppies. ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: waiteohman on Tuesday 27 July 10 01:41 BST (UK): From the children's birth locations on census, looks like the Robinson family moved around a bit.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: waiteohman on Tuesday 27 July 10 01:47 BST (UK): Ruskie in 1841 Robinson's living Narrow St.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Tuesday 27 July 10 02:40 BST (UK): Quote from: waiteohman on Tuesday 27 July 10 01:47 BST (UK)
Ruskie in 1841 Robinson's living Narrow St.
Thanks very much Linda, I didn't read your post carefully enough. :)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: waiteohman on Tuesday 27 July 10 04:23 BST (UK): Births Sep 1846 quarter St Geo Han Sq - Robinson Charlotte

Father James is James Miles Robinson from the baptism of son Edward in 1840, mother Sarah for his birth.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Siamese Girl on Tuesday 27 July 10 11:20 BST (UK): I've gone through all the female Wood/Woods marriages for London in 1826 on Ancestry but no one was married 25 March. I've looked at all the March ones in case the date was wrong to see if Mrs S could have been a witness but have drawn a blank.

The trouble with Nat's friends and relations is tha they either have names like White/Fox/Wood -so common there are millions of them out there, or so rare like Skirricker that they don't actually exist!

Carole
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: waiteohman on Wednesday 28 July 10 04:17 BST (UK): I tried Woods; however, it may be a marriage in a non-conformist church and these are not indexed on Ancestry. Edmonton Tottenham Congretional Church records appear to be incomplete.

There is a Wood printing the published works of Bunyan. Could further relations have developed between Woods and Bunyans?
Title Exposition of those words in the sixteenth of Luke, concerning the rich man and the beggar
Early English books online
Author John Bunyan
Publisher Printed by Ralph Wood, for M. Wright, at the Kings Head in the Old Bailey, 1658

Linda
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Wednesday 28 July 10 05:36 BST (UK): Not a lot of news in today's entry - it must have been a slow day if Nathaniel thought the fact that Sam Daws broke the chimney pot worthy of a mention. ;D

I had a quick look for Sam in 41 and 51 but couldn't see an obvious one. Not many Daws around, but a couple of Dawes. :-\
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Wednesday 28 July 10 05:54 BST (UK): IMPORTANT - HELP REQUIRED

with this:
As already mentioned, the Ancestry London Parish Records where most of us have found all this valuable information about Nathaniel's family, were taken from records held at the London Metropolitan Archives. These records are not complete and they do not include all the Westminster parishes which are held by Westminster Archives. This probably explains why we are missing quite a lot of births, marriages and deaths, so if anyone can think of anything that we need, please let me know as I am compiling a list of questions/lookups for Westminster Archives.

Jim, from Westminster Archives, is willing to do lookups for us. ;D

and this:
As we know, Westminster Archives are going to publish the diary in book form and have asked for our help to find any mistakes in the introduction on their website. The only thing I could find is the fact that they say that Granny Shepard, and Nathaniel's mother and step father had 'moved out' of Richmond Buildings by 1851. We know that both Granny Shepard and Mary Ward had died and Matthew Ward's whereabouts are unknown. Can anyone spot any more inaccuracies?

Thanks to all. :)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Siamese Girl on Wednesday 28 July 10 08:18 BST (UK): Off the top of my head I'd be pedantic and ask to have the original checked for Miss Manodes to see if that was actually what he wrote.

A bit off the subject. my current bedtime reading is The Murders of the Black Museum 1870-1970 (I found it while turning some stuff out and decided to read it first!) I've just read about the murder of Miss Barrow by Mr & Mrs Seddon in 1911 a very unpleasant death caused by arsenic poisoning http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Seddon After the poor woman died Mr Seddon went off to the undertaker to haggle a cheap funeral. The undertaker was a Mr Nodes - it must be the same family.

Carole
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: steve_gus on Wednesday 28 July 10 11:14 BST (UK): Very likely to be the same Nodes I suspect. They are still operating in my hometown area of North London.

For the book version of the diary, I think its essential to have an 1846 map in there. As well as the characters (surely the stuff you guys are finding out on here would be key to include in the book), you need to be able to visualise where all this was happening. For example, where Nat works is now the site of (Victoria?) train station, and the canal where the barges went to the basin is now just 50ft long and has housing on it! On top of this many roads and names have changed. So, it you want to look up where he went, walked on sundays, where Ecclestone Wharf etc actually was, you wont find these on current maps.

steve
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Wednesday 28 July 10 13:19 BST (UK): Morning everyone

Ruskie ...how very exciting !!!!

As we know, Westminster Archives are going to publish the diary in book form and have asked for our help to find any mistakes in the introduction on their website. The only thing I could find is the fact that they say that Granny Shepard, and Nathaniel's mother and step father had 'moved out' of Richmond Buildings by 1851. We know that both Granny Shepard and Mary Ward had died and Matthew Ward's whereabouts are unknown. Can anyone spot any more inaccuracies?

Their Website intro has less info than what was emailed to you a while back ...where they stated that Ann Fox was a middle aged woman ...I know there were a couple of mistakes there eg: That NB's dad was John Bryceson..... do they want us to check that too? if so could you tell us where to find it again , perhaps in Part 3 ... ::) 8)

as far as lookups :
we do not have Matthew Wards death/burial (although there are a couple possibles on the index)

I feel the need to reread the summaries and the Diary again ;D
deb .
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Wednesday 28 July 10 13:34 BST (UK): Hi again

from intro:
(maybe they could expand on this):

He was related to the proprietor, George Lea, through his grandmother. .... George was Granny's Nephew, NB's 2nd cousin

His mother Mary (born in 1797) .... we have her baptism

saw this too:
His wife Sarah died in 1890, leaving him with only a housekeeper by time of the 1901 census
she was Emma Morris, single, 64, b St Giles in the Field

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Wednesday 28 July 10 14:55 BST (UK): Hi Deb, Carole and Steve. :)

Carole - it is only the intro they wanted checked for errors (so far at least). I did ask about Miss Manodes but haven't had a reply yet.

Steve - I agree, a map is essential - I'll pass that on to them. :)

Deb - It is only the intro on the website they wanted checked, rather than that other intro I posted in part 2 or 3. That had numerous errors but you're right - it was the only mention of Ann being middle aged. ;) I believe that 'other' introduction was written many years ago by an archivist at Westminster Archives. That was then amended and used as the basis of the current intro for the website. At one stage I mentioned to one of the Archivists that there were errors in the introduction (meaning the old one) and have now been asked to point out any errors in the website's intro. :)

Deb, the first lookup I thought of was Matthew Ward's death - great minds think alike ;D I'm sure he must have died before 1851. Remember Nat is with Uncle John in 1851 and Granny Shepard is in the workhouse. :-\

I agree about expanding the Lea relationship too. ;D

I wonder if they fancy including a little 'family tree' in the book. I wonder how many living descendants they've found - and would they be allowed to include them?

Deb, you mention Emma Morris - do you think he and Nathaniel might have had a thing going on? ;) No seriously, you mentioning that made me wonder why they included this and not the fact that he was with his son Henry in the 1891 census. I'd say either include both or neither.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Wednesday 28 July 10 15:23 BST (UK): Quote from: Ruskie on Wednesday 28 July 10 14:55 BST (UK)
Deb, you mention Emma Morris - do you think he and Nathaniel might have had a thing going on? ;) No seriously, you mentioning that made me wonder why they included this and not the fact that he was with his son Henry in the 1891 census. I'd say either include both or neither.

Ruskie .... ;D ... My exact same thoughts !!!! LOL especially as she is single ...maybe they played cards together or maybe NB was still going on long walks and taking her along ... :D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Wednesday 28 July 10 16:04 BST (UK): another thought...

I wonder how we can clear up the 1841 census where someone has changed the name of Bryan (Ann plus kids including Nathaniel) to BRYCESON?

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 29 July 10 00:16 BST (UK): Quote from: deb usa on Wednesday 28 July 10 15:23 BST (UK)
Quote from: Ruskie on Wednesday 28 July 10 14:55 BST (UK)
Deb, you mention Emma Morris - do you think he and Nathaniel might have had a thing going on? ;) No seriously, you mentioning that made me wonder why they included this and not the fact that he was with his son Henry in the 1891 census. I'd say either include both or neither.

Ruskie .... ;D ... My exact same thoughts !!!! LOL especially as she is single ...maybe they played cards together or maybe NB was still going on long walks and taking her along ... :D

I thought you might have been thinking that! ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 29 July 10 00:21 BST (UK): Quote from: deb usa on Wednesday 28 July 10 16:04 BST (UK)
another thought...

I wonder how we can clear up the 1841 census where someone has changed the name of Bryan (Ann plus kids including Nathaniel) to BRYCESON?

deb

I'm not sure what the process is but I definitely think we should correct it. ;)

Are we able to add yet another change to the change that has already been made? Whoever made the change is obviously researching Nathaniel too, so I wonder if there is a way to contact them?

Has anyone made any changes to any transcriptions on Ancestry and can tell us how to go about it?
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 29 July 10 01:35 BST (UK): Historically an interesting entry today.

St Barnabas Church is on what is now St Barnabas Street. The street names must have changed since Nathaniel's time.
http://www.stbarnabaspimlico.org.uk/St_Bs/Welcome.html

I must say it is nice to see that it is still used as a church. :)

What is now Pimlico Road runs into Ebury Bridge. St Barnabas St runs south from Pimlico Rd.
The part of Pimlico Road where the church is used to be Queen Street, but I cannot see a King St on Cross's 1861 map. A lot of the streets have changed over the years.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 29 July 10 01:43 BST (UK): morning Ruskie ...night time here ;D

Haven't read today's entry yet ..but will do soonish.

I would still like to know who NB's mum's friend was ... Ann/Eliza

I have never contacted Ancestry regarding transcription errors although I would/Should have done so as I have seen some WHOPPER mistakes ...there has to be an easy way to do it... ::)

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 29 July 10 02:00 BST (UK): Hi Deb - yes I had a quick look on Ancestry but can't see anything obvious about how to make changes. I suppose they don't want to make it too easy to find or they'll have thousands of people pointing out errors. ;D I'm hoping someone who's already done it will be able to tell us what the process is.

About today's entry - the word beginning with "pa..." which they were unable to decipher (I think they use the ...... when they can't decipher a word?) - surely it must be "parsonage"? :)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: waiteohman on Thursday 29 July 10 04:11 BST (UK): One of the 6 boys born before Charlotte of Commercial Road was Thomas Henry Billington son of Thomas (servant) and Ann born April 30th 1846 at 25 Commercial Road.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Siamese Girl on Thursday 29 July 10 08:31 BST (UK): I see it's heating up in 1846 London - the bugs are breeding well on all that human and animal waste. I bet the Thames really stinks, although I don't suppose that would put Nat off swimming in it.

It's nice to see St Barnabas is still there - a lot of Victorian churches didn't last too long. I don't imagine it would have suited anyone in the diary I think it was far too high church for them. What a shame he missed seeing Prince Albert. I assume the Prince was visiting the slate works because he was ordering a billiard table and you can see the actual table here http://www.normanclare.co.uk/DOY_No7_Magnus.html (isn't the internet wonderful!)

Carole
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 29 July 10 08:34 BST (UK): Quote
I wonder how we can clear up the 1841 census where someone has changed the name of Bryan (Ann plus kids including Nathaniel) to BRYCESON?

You can check who made the change by going into "view record" then clicking on the alternate name entry. You can then click on the contributor's user name and send a message. She was last online last week.

To contribute an alternate name or correction you go to "view record" and click on "view/add alternate info" . It's very simple and they send an email when they have actioned it.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 29 July 10 09:45 BST (UK): Quote from: ShaunJ on Thursday 29 July 10 08:34 BST (UK)
Quote
I wonder how we can clear up the 1841 census where someone has changed the name of Bryan (Ann plus kids including Nathaniel) to BRYCESON?

You can check who made the change by going into "view record" then clicking on the alternate name entry. You can then click on the contributor's user name and send a message. She was last online last week.

To contribute an alternate name or correction you go to "view record" and click on "view/add alternate info" . It's very simple and they send an email when they have actioned it.

Oooh goody! Thanks ShaunJ. ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 29 July 10 13:23 BST (UK): Quote from: Siamese Girl on Thursday 29 July 10 08:31 BST (UK)
I see it's heating up in 1846 London - the bugs are breeding well on all that human and animal waste. I bet the Thames really stinks, although I don't suppose that would put Nat off swimming in it.

;D

What a shame he missed seeing Prince Albert. I assume the Prince was visiting the slate works because he was ordering a billiard table and you can see the actual table here http://www.normanclare.co.uk/DOY_No7_Magnus.html (isn't the internet wonderful!)
Carole

That's a great find Carole - good detective work! :)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 29 July 10 14:26 BST (UK): Morning guys

I had to look this up (see diary entry)...sounded like something NB would have loved ...especially the last part (where the guy was hanged in 1840 ...NB would have been 13) ...can't bold , screen wobbly

from Wiki

Death and investigation
On the morning of 6 May 1840 Russell's housemaid, Sarah Mancer, discovered the lower floors of the house in disarray. Fearing that a robbery had taken place in the night, she went to the room of the valet, François Benjamin Courvoisier, and found him already dressed. Upon seeing the state of the house, he agreed that a robbery must have occurred; Courvoisier and Mancer then went to Russell's bedchamber, where Courvoisier immediately began to open the shutters, as he always did. Thus it was Mancer who first noticed that Russell was dead; his throat had been cut. The police were summoned; Courvoisier drew their attention to marks of violence upon the door to his pantry, asserting that this was where the robbers had entered the house.

The police, however, came quickly to the conclusion that the "robbery" had been staged in order to draw suspicion away from some member of the household. Numerous small gold and silver articles, as well as a ten-pound banknote, were found to be missing; some of the articles were soon discovered wrapped in a parcel inside the house, which was curious – a thief would have carried them off straightaway rather than leave them behind. The discovery of several more gold articles, as well as the banknote, hidden in the wainscoting and in Courvoisier's pantry cemented their suspicion of the valet. Additionally, a screwdriver in his possession was found to match the marks on the pantry door as well as marks left by the forcing of the silverware drawer.

Courvoisier was put on trial, but the question was whether his guilt could be conclusively proved. His counsel, Charles Phillips, was doing well on the paucity of evidence, and had actually hinted at the guilt of a maidservant in the house, when an inventory indicated that several further items of silverware were missing, and silver matching their description was located in a French hotel in Leicester Square.

This report was conveyed to Courvoisier by his barrister, and he immediately confessed to both the thefts and the murder. Phillips asked his client if he now planned to change his plea from not guilty to guilty. Courvoisier insisted on maintaining the not guilty plea, and said he expected Phillips to continue the defence on that basis. The legal interest in the case arises from Phillips' approach to the judge for guidance. He was forcefully told he could not ask for such advice, so he continued the defence, knowing that his client was guilty and trying to blame the maid for the crime. It led to considerable public criticism of Phillips after the trial.

It emerged in Courvoisier's confession that Russell had discovered his silverware thefts and ordered Courvoisier to resign from the household. Rather than lose his position, Courvoisier decided to conceal the matter by murdering Russell.

Courvoisier had reportedly read William Harrison Ainsworth's novel Jack Sheppard in the days leading up to the crime, and several news reports implied that the novel's glorification of criminal life had led him to commit the murder. However, the concept was not pursued in Courvoisier's court defence.

Courvoisier was hanged outside Newgate Prison on 6 July 1840. One of the huge crowd who attended was the novelist William Makepeace Thackeray, who wrote an anti-capital punishment essay, On Going to See a Man Hanged.

Soon afterwards the murder scene was portrayed in a peep-show at a travelling fair.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 29 July 10 14:50 BST (UK): How interesting Deb. :o That'd make a good film and you're right, Nathaniel would really have loved that!.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 29 July 10 15:01 BST (UK): Hi Ruskie

Thanks for your PM ...I have sent a message to the person who amended the 1841 census of Nat Bryan to Nat Bryceson ...hopefully I will get some response 8)

If she is a decendent of NB I am sure Stephen will be most interested!

I wonder if Stephen is still walking ;D

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 29 July 10 15:08 BST (UK): That's great Deb - thanks. I'll be really interested to see what they have to say in response - assuming they will respond. ;) I hope she is a descendant - we could do with finding a few cousins for Steven. What country is she in?

Steven said he was walking for 2 days. Probably resting his sore feet. ;)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 29 July 10 18:17 BST (UK): Hi all

I have received a reply :

Subject: RE: Nathaniel Bryceson

I have no idea whether Nathaniel Bryceson wrote a famous diary. I altered the entry because his Mother and siblings bear the correct names to be the wife (Ann) and children of Nathaniel Bryceson. I am not directly related - It is through a marriage into the family around 107 and I did some further research to trace the family.

:-\ :-\ :-\
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Mongibello on Thursday 29 July 10 19:09 BST (UK): I spent some time at Westminster Archives today without much success. Also at the Probate Office to find that neither Nathaniel made a will.
However, all is redeemed by a visit to the Islington Cemetery in Finchley.
The entries of burials are in large ledgers, one for each year. They are in alphabetical order then in month order, finally in order of burial. There are no exact dates.
February 1911
Name: Bryceson Nathaniel; No. 138957; Abode (!) Royal Free Hospital; Class of grave, 3; Block V2 Grave 1229P
Pretty sure this is the son as the register says he died in Islington & the RFH was there then.
March 1911
Name Bryceson Nathaniel; No. 139239; Abode, Dempsey St, Stepney; Class 2; V2; 1229P
This must be our man as he is said to have died in Mile end Reg. district & that would be right. Same grave you notice. I will take some photos to show that that area of the cemetery is a jungle and it will be impossible to find the grave even if a stone exists[/i].

Dempsey St no longer exists. The luftwaffe made a lot of alterations in that area in the 1940s
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Thursday 29 July 10 19:23 BST (UK): Hi Mongibello

Welcome to Rootschat and our 'slight obssession' with Nathaniel Bryceson! ;D

Thank you so much for looking for us! Steven ( a descendant of NB) will be ABSOLUTELY DELIGHTED!!!

I wonder what the Nathaniels died of ...poor family losing both within a month of each other.

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Steven Bryceson on Thursday 29 July 10 23:03 BST (UK): Dear all, Fabulous news about the grave finds! I thought I'd never find a grave in Abney Park but did so with the help of a volunteer with a stick! So, I live in hope as I would love to make pilgrimage to NB's grave! Peace and joy, Steven.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Friday 30 July 10 00:07 BST (UK): Hi Steven

How was your "walk" .... ;D

Quote from: SteveBryceson on Thursday 29 July 10 23:03 BST (UK)
Dear all, Fabulous news about the grave finds! I thought I'd never find a grave in Abney Park but did so with the help of a volunteer with a stick! So, I live in hope as I would love to make pilgrimage to NB's grave! Peace and joy, Steven.

What grave did you find?

Did you see the response from the person who changed the 1841 census ...do you think there was another Nathaniel Bryceson that has been confused with 'ours'?

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Friday 30 July 10 00:09 BST (UK): For Ruskie:

WAKE UP!
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 30 July 10 00:55 BST (UK): I'm here now Deb!

(Just catching up).

I'm absolutely delighted that graves of both Nathaniels have been found!!!!!!! Fabulous work Mongibello! Thank you so much.

And of course, a very warm welcome to rootschat and our obsession with Nathaniel Bryceson. ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: steve_gus on Friday 30 July 10 00:58 BST (UK): Hi

Fantastic find for the grave

Here is a map of the cemetary

http://www.islington.gov.uk/DownloadableDocuments/Environment/Pdf/cemeteries/islingtonstpancras_cemetery_map.pdf

Confusing the way its labelled - looks to me that Nat might be in the bottom right hand corner between raleigh rd and parkers rd (V in light grey, 2 in bold)

Looks quite wooded.........
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: steve_gus on Friday 30 July 10 01:00 BST (UK): from sky
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 30 July 10 01:10 BST (UK): Quote from: deb usa on Thursday 29 July 10 18:17 BST (UK)
Hi all

I have received a reply :

Subject: RE: Nathaniel Bryceson

I have no idea whether Nathaniel Bryceson wrote a famous diary. I altered the entry because his Mother and siblings bear the correct names to be the wife (Ann) and children of Nathaniel Bryceson. I am not directly related - It is through a marriage into the family around 107 and I did some further research to trace the family.

:-\ :-\ :-\

I do not understand this. Is she saying that there is a Nathaniel Bryceson who has a mother Ann and siblings as noted in this 1841 census entry? And is she also saying that Nathaniel Bryceson married an Ann and his chidren's names are the same as in this 1841 census entry? I'm confused. :P

There IS only one Nathaniel Bryceson isn't there? I think 'ours' is the only one in that area at that time, isn't he?

I think the change made in this census is incorrect.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 30 July 10 01:15 BST (UK): Quote from: steve_gus on Friday 30 July 10 00:58 BST (UK)
Hi

Fantastic find for the grave

Here is a map of the cemetary

http://www.islington.gov.uk/DownloadableDocuments/Environment/Pdf/cemeteries/islingtonstpancras_cemetery_map.pdf

Confusing the way its labelled - looks to me that Nat might be in the bottom right hand corner between raleigh rd and parkers rd (V in light grey, 2 in bold)

Looks quite wooded.........

Would there be help available at the cemetery to find the grave/gravesite?

It appears tht Nathaniel jnr must have been ill to be hospital when he died, but what about Nathaniel snr? I wonder why he was living in Dempsey St? That's out of his usual area. Perhaps a family member was living there and he was living with them? What kind of street was Dempsey St?

Such a shame that neither left wills. I would have thought that Nathaniel would have left one. :-\
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Friday 30 July 10 01:19 BST (UK): Morning Ruskie

I COMPLETELY agree with you .... I think a change should be made to the change ...if you get my drift ;D

The 1841 Nathaniel seems to be with the head of house as Ann and other younger 'siblings" ..the problem is there is no status column ...so what if NB is with cousins .... well, I will say ...NB was an only child, born of Nathaniel WHITE and would most probably be with his Mum, Mary Bryceson, in 1841. There is no mention made in the diary that Nat had siblings let alone an aunt Ann or mother Ann..... :-\ :( >:(

on a more positive note:

Thanks Steve-gus ..great stuff .... how on earth do we find a grave in those woods ...eeekkkk ...I think Steven needs guys with lots of sticks ... ;D
Quote from: SteveBryceson on Thursday 29 July 10 23:03 BST (UK)
I thought I'd never find a grave in Abney Park but did so with the help of a volunteer with a stick!

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 30 July 10 01:40 BST (UK): Quote from: deb usa on Friday 30 July 10 01:19 BST (UK)

Thanks Steve-gus ..great stuff .... how on earth do we find a grave in those woods ...eeekkkk ...I think Steven needs guys with lots of sticks ... ;D
Quote from: SteveBryceson on Thursday 29 July 10 23:03 BST (UK)
I thought I'd never find a grave in Abney Park but did so with the help of a volunteer with a stick!

deb

Steven you must find the grave. ;D

(And take flowers as well as sticks .... or maybe a petrol strimmer.)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 30 July 10 01:43 BST (UK): Quote from: deb usa on Friday 30 July 10 01:19 BST (UK)

I COMPLETELY agree with you .... I think a change should be made to the change ...if you get my drift ;D

The 1841 Nathaniel seems to be with the head of house as Ann and other younger 'siblings" ..the problem is there is no status column ...so what if NB is with cousins .... well, I will say ...NB was an only child, born of Nathaniel WHITE and would most probably be with his Mum, Mary Bryceson, in 1841. There is no mention made in the diary that Nat had siblings let alone an aunt Ann or mother Ann..... :-\ :( >:(

No, wrong family - wrong surname - Bryan. Our Nathaniel isn't related to anyone called Bryan. I'm sure the only family he has are the ones we know about. Didn't you find the same family in 1851 Deb? I'm going to have look ....

Is it the family with father Benjamin, mother Ann in 1851? I looked for son ALfred as he has the most unusual name, and there are two - one of the right age in prison in 1851. :-\ Not sure which is the correct family. Did we already try to trace this Bryan family and their b,m,d's? I can't remember but I think we did?

I've got to go out soon but will get onto it later if no-one else beats me to it. ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Friday 30 July 10 02:35 BST (UK): hey Ruskie

yep ..I think we followed the Bryan family and Alfred was in jail for something or other ...maybe part 2 ... I know I did mentuon the fact that the 1841 did not make sense as NB was supposedly with sibs and a mother callled ANN ...not correct as his mum was MARY!!!!

Blimey ...I think we need a new summary as so much more has been found ... If I can or have time available I will get onto it ...

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Friday 30 July 10 02:36 BST (UK): Quote from: Ruskie on Friday 30 July 10 01:40 BST (UK)
Quote from: deb usa on Friday 30 July 10 01:19 BST (UK)

Thanks Steve-gus ..great stuff .... how on earth do we find a grave in those woods ...eeekkkk ...I think Steven needs guys with lots of sticks ... ;D
Quote from: SteveBryceson on Thursday 29 July 10 23:03 BST (UK)
I thought I'd never find a grave in Abney Park but did so with the help of a volunteer with a stick!

deb

Steven you must find the grave. ;D

(And take flowers as well as sticks .... or maybe a petrol strimmer.)

;D ;D :o
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Friday 30 July 10 04:16 BST (UK): No entries ... arghhhhh ...I think Steven needs to give us a little of what's to come on the 9th August .....

Come on Steven ... just a liiiiiiiittle clue , please ;D

deb, impatient
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 30 July 10 04:39 BST (UK): Yes, Steven your ggggrandfather is not delivering at the moment diary-wise. It is time to spill the beans on what happens on the 9th of August. At the very least you should tell Deb and me. ;)

Mongibello - is it possible to find out if anyone else is in the same grave as the two Nathaniels?

I also have a hankering to find Granny Shepard's grave:
20th Nov 1851
Parish of St Pancras
Mary Shepard buried, age 80, abode: Infirmary

And Nathaniel's mother Mary:
29 Oct 1847
Burial - St Anne, Soho
Mary Ward, Richmond Buildings, age 50

And importantly to see if there are any family members buried with them and to discover IF there are any gravestones. ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: tedscout on Friday 30 July 10 05:56 BST (UK): I cant help with graves but I thought I would go back and look at the 1841 census entry that I had discounted when I started NB's family tree on Ancestry.

I copied and enhanced the image it is definitely Bryan - what does everyone else think?

Also Steven has the 1841 census on his family tree for NB, but the person who made the "correction" doesn,t have it attached to anything.

Cheers Ted
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 30 July 10 07:18 BST (UK): Yes Ted, this is the census entry we've been discussing. The surname is definitely NOT Bryceson as per the 'correction'. We discussed this back in Part 2(? which I need to go back to to refresh my memory) and I agree it looks like Bryan. It's a red herring.

(I still stand by Nathaniel Vagg as being our Nathaniel. ;D) Mother Mary is still a big mystery though.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: tedscout on Friday 30 July 10 07:34 BST (UK): I wonder if we can "uncorrect" a correction ???
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 30 July 10 07:42 BST (UK): Deb and I were discussing this via PM earlier.

I'm not sure you can change the correction that's been made (but I assume the person who made the correction can take it off?). But I'm wondering if you can you just add yet another correction?

I think I remember seeing a name with a couple of corrections made to it ... or maybe I imagined it. ;)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: tedscout on Friday 30 July 10 07:53 BST (UK): I did a 2nd correction - I wonder if I get a reply
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 30 July 10 07:55 BST (UK): Quote from: tedscout on Friday 30 July 10 07:53 BST (UK)
I did a 2nd correction - I wonder if I get a reply

Excellent Ted! ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: tedscout on Friday 30 July 10 07:57 BST (UK): thank you ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Mongibello on Friday 30 July 10 09:48 BST (UK): That is right Steve. I checked with the staff. I will try to get a photo of the jungle in the next day or two and put it up here.
Incidentally, I used to work within a couple of hundred yards of the cemetery and I live in Barnet, where the Leas and Sarah Clark came from.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: steve_gus on Friday 30 July 10 10:28 BST (UK): Congrats on finding the grave location, thats great work.

I come from the Mays Lane area of Barnet, and still have family there. Visit every 3rd week normally as im 70 or so miles north now.

I would like to find time though to look for Nats grave, though im not familiar with that area. Having moved from London 30 years ago, I still remember the mentality that a couple miles in London is like going on holiday :) I do 100 miles a day now just commuting. :(

There can be undergrowth thats a bit more than sticks an strimmers - hopefully its not like that..... my son and i went for a walk in a local gully a couple months back and when we fought our way through a dead end it was suprising how resilient a few bushes can be!

If there was a way of finding out from the cemetary where the grave is in the block by the grave number, we might at least have some chance of approaching the area, as it would be pretty limiting as to how much you could chop though on a wild goose chase.

Regarding where Dempsey street is, please find new london maps and a link to the 1840 map of london . Dempsey st is pretty much centre of the 1840 map. Ignore the 'pin' on the new map - it looks to me that Dempsey st would have been in the area bounded by smithy st, jubilee st, jamaica st, anf stepney way, today.

http://london1851.com/cross15.htm
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Siamese Girl on Friday 30 July 10 10:52 BST (UK): That's great news Mongibello finding out where both Nats were buried - knowing where someone is buried always completes the story properly. I wonder if their undertaker was Mr Nodes? It's the right area.

Carole
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Aniseed on Friday 30 July 10 12:03 BST (UK): Hello all, fascinating developments. I was wondering what a class 2 and a class 3 grave means. Is it to do with the depth?

As far as people being recorded on the census with different surnames, I have an ancestor whose surname was BRIMMELL who was totally unfindable on one of the censuses (I think it was the 1861, but I've forgotten now). I searched for one of the children with his date and place of birth and no surname, and found the family listed as BREWER, which is what was written on the original census form. I'm certain it was the right family as all the names, places and dates of birth tallied with what I knew, and even the father's slightly unusual occupation of Fellowship Porter was the same. Why they were listed as BREWER, I have absolutely no idea, but it can happen that people are listed with completely wrong surnames.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: nestagj on Friday 30 July 10 12:27 BST (UK): Just thought I'd have a look at Dempsey Street, London on the 1911 to see if I could dip in and whether there were any relatives of Nathaniel's living there but unfortunately there were too many entries - don't have that many credits !

Maybe if someone has got a subscription ?

N
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 30 July 10 13:14 BST (UK): I'd love to know who was in Dempsey St in 1911 too nestagj. If anyone has a subscription to FindMyPast we'd be grateful if they could look it up - perhaps once Steven has received Nathaniel's death certificate which might give a full address? I really hope he was living with family.

I've also been on a mission to find Dempsey St. I'm sure Mongibello is correct as the layout of the streets in that area then and now point to something destructive occurring (eg fewer streets and inexplicable dead ends). I hope it is OK to post this from another forum where they are discussing Dempsey Street and someone has produced an excellent map showing where it used to be:
http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=4280

I have also located it both on Cross's 1861 map and Booth Poverty Map where it is classed as "pink" - "fairly comfortable, good ordinary earnings" (This is in 1898/99). So at least it seems that Nathaniel was living quite well in his old age.

Although finding Nathaniel's place of burial is a wonderful breakthrough, I think it's also a bit sad. :(

I wonder if it would be possible to clean up the area? I'm sure Mongibello will give us a clearer picture after his visit. It's probabaly essential to ask for help from staff to find the location of the grave as Steve suggests. If we could find the plot and there is no stone, it would be nice if we could put some kind of marker there. :-\

Thanks Mongibello - we all really appreciate your efforts.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 30 July 10 13:19 BST (UK): Quote from: Aniseed on Friday 30 July 10 12:03 BST (UK)

As far as people being recorded on the census with different surnames, I have an ancestor whose surname was BRIMMELL who was totally unfindable on one of the censuses ....... Why they were listed as BREWER, I have absolutely no idea, but it can happen that people are listed with completely wrong surnames.

Yes, that's a mystery. However in the case of Nathaniel Bryan/Bryceson - all the members of the household (as far as we know) are incorrect - there is just someone with the first name of Nathaniel living there.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: ShaunJ on Friday 30 July 10 13:21 BST (UK): Dempsey Street ran from 21 Charles Street to 51 Smith Street.

Occupants listed in 1910 PO Directory were:

3 Taylor Geo. Edwin, tailor ( yes Mr Taylor the tailor !)
13, Watkins John, carman
13a, Sedwell Wm & sons, wheelwrights
15 Battenbury Jn & sons farriers
London Council Schools

EDIT - the same occupants are listed in 1912
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: nestagj on Friday 30 July 10 13:26 BST (UK): Couldn't wait so went at it sideways - I'd already looked for Brycesons and there were none in the right area so I went back and double checked who his daughter married and it was Walter Stangroom (I hope I'm right here) - looked for them in 1901 (have A** sub) and guess where they were - 102 Dempsey Street !!!! :D

Had enough credits to check just one in 1911 - looked for Stangroom again and there they were :

102 Dempsey Street

Walter James Stangroom 49 Carman
Sarah Maria 52
Walter 26 Carpenter
Edith Sarah 18 Dressmaker
Florence Ethel 15

Hurrah ! It makes sense doesn't it - if he's unwell the daughter takes him in !
N
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 30 July 10 13:41 BST (UK): Thanks for looking Shaun! :)

Quote from: nestagj on Friday 30 July 10 13:26 BST (UK)
Couldn't wait so went at it sideways - I'd already looked for Brycesons and there were none in the right area so I went back and double checked who his daughter married and it was Walter Stangroom (I hope I'm right here) - looked for them in 1901 (have A** sub) and guess where they were - 102 Dempsey Street !!!! :D

Had enough credits to check just one in 1911 - looked for Stangroom again and there they were :

102 Dempsey Street

Walter James Stangroom 49 Carman
Sarah Maria 52
Walter 26 Carpenter
Edith Sarah 18 Dressmaker
Florence Ethel 15

Hurrah ! It makes sense doesn't it - if he's unwell the daughter takes him in !
N

Yea - that's them!

Yet another great find N!

Great work!!!!

;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 30 July 10 13:48 BST (UK): The Stangrooms are at 102 Dempsey St in 1901 too. ;)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: nestagj on Friday 30 July 10 14:28 BST (UK): It gets better - I've started working my way down the Stangroom children and have found one descendant born in 1966 - obviously can't publish name cause of living people but will post the line down as far as I can when I've deciphered my notes - two children of Sarah done - one to go !
N
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 30 July 10 14:39 BST (UK): Yes, please do N. Maybe you could send names of the living to anyone interested via PM, especially Steven who might be interested in contacting potential cousins. :)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: steve_gus on Friday 30 July 10 15:12 BST (UK): Quote from: Ruskie on Friday 30 July 10 13:14 BST (UK)
I've also been on a mission to find Dempsey St. I'm sure Mongibello is correct as the layout of the streets in that area then and now point to something destructive occurring (eg fewer streets and inexplicable dead ends).
I have also located it both on Cross's 1861 map and Booth Poverty Map where it is classed as "pink" - "fairly comfortable, good ordinary earnings"

Its in the map I linked to earlier, runnign north south and the link you posted to the discussion also backs my proposal of where it would be in modern day. The Wikipedia link to Stepney below states that Stepney was a poor area and was pretty much destroyed in WW2 - hence it being quite different in modern day

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepney

Quote :

The area was rapidly built up in the 19th century, mainly to accommodate immigrant workers and displaced London poor, and developed a reputation for poverty, overcrowding, violence and political dissent.[1] It was severely damaged during the Blitz, with over a third of housing totally destroyed, and then 1960s slum clearance and development replaced most residential streets with tower blocks and modern housing estates, though some Georgian architecture and Victorian era terraced housing survive in patches, such as Arbour Square, the eastern side of Stepney Green and the streets around Matlock Street.[
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 30 July 10 15:30 BST (UK): Booth says Mile End Road and Commercial Road were "largely middle class and well to do", and the area between the two streets, which included Dempsey St, mainly "fairly comfortable with good ordinary earnings". If you look at the occupations of the people living near the Stangrooms on the 1901 census, this tends to back this up.

http://www.rootschat.com/links/09c7/

In the 40 odd years between Booth's survey and WW2 it may have changed. I cannot comment on the housing in area in the 19th century with any authority but Booth points towards it being a decent area at that point in time.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Friday 30 July 10 15:35 BST (UK): Morning all :D

Just checking in ... Oh My you have all been busy ... Great Stuff!!!

I agree Ruskie ...... Wouldn't it be fab to find Granny's and mother's graves!

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 30 July 10 15:43 BST (UK): Good evening Deb. ;)

Quote from: deb usa on Friday 30 July 10 15:35 BST (UK)

Wouldn't it be fab to find Granny's and mother's graves!

deb

Maybe Monibello will be able to help us with this too? ;D

Please? ;)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Friday 30 July 10 15:52 BST (UK): Hi Ruskie

I think we should also pay homage to Nathaniel White ...he is, after all, Nathaniel's Dad!

I wonder where he would be buried ....maybe hard to find as we don't know his age etc ::)

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Mongibello on Friday 30 July 10 15:52 BST (UK): On the map Dempsey St was roughly where the narrow lane is, just to the East of Jamaica Street.
I have a printout of the 1911 census of the Stangrooms but never bothered to check.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Steven Bryceson on Friday 30 July 10 16:04 BST (UK): Dear all,

I am very excited about grave info- a bit of NB in all of us isn't there!

The grave I found in Abney Park was of another relative, a Hurran, on the side of a great grandmother who married NB's grandson Henry.

I have been to St Anne's Soho. The churchyard has been totally re-ordered and there is no evidence of Mary Ward or thousands of other people buried there - though there is a tomb for William Hazlitt! Here is good info on the cemetery - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Anne's_Church,_Soho

I guess I will need help at Islington Cemetery from someone who can help me find the grave of NB.

Yes, I would love to hear news of any Stangroom or other NB descendants.

My walk went very well - NB would have loved it (although it was a bit light-weight for him at only 16 miles a day). Those on Facebook can see my lovely photos from the walk.

I will not spill the beans on August 8th but I am glad to have learnt how WCC are dealing with the entry: very clev**r!

I'll be away from my office for a couple of weeks so please excuse my pending silence!

Peace to all,

Steven.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Friday 30 July 10 16:24 BST (UK): Quote from: SteveBryceson on Friday 30 July 10 16:04 BST (UK)
Dear all,

I will not spill the beans on August 8th but I am glad to have learnt how WCC are dealing with the entry: very clev**r!

Oh My ...don't tell me they're going to post the entry in Shorthand ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: HeatherLynne on Friday 30 July 10 16:28 BST (UK): That's OK if it's Pitman shorthand ;) now I know why I spent two years learning it ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Friday 30 July 10 16:44 BST (UK): Hi Heather

Yey!! ;D

Quote from: HeatherLynne on Friday 30 July 10 16:28 BST (UK)
That's OK if it's Pitman shorthand ;) now I know why I spent two years learning it ;D

...we're onto you, Nathaniel ;D

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Mongibello on Friday 30 July 10 16:50 BST (UK): There is a Nathaniel White in Great Quebec Street, Marylebone in the '41 census, a Chairmaker aged 50, not born in Middlesex.
There is a N W married in Marylebone in 1844 but he is described as "Gent" in the occupation column. So rather unlikely.
There is a N W who died in December Quarter of 1862 (i.e. c71yrs if it is the same one). I will try to check the records when I am at Westminster next Tuesday. He may be buried in the Marylebone cemetery which is just along the North Circular Road from the Islington one.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Friday 30 July 10 17:04 BST (UK): Hi Mongibello

Yep ...we think that Nat, the chairmaker may be NB's dad. Ruskie had followed him through to 1861.

It's so great of you to do all of this for Steven and us ...I am so envious of you being there ...maybe one day we should all meet up for a "Nathaniel Bryceson Party" ...we could plan to walk his routes, see 'his' places .... ooooo wouldn't that be wonderful!

deb ...day dreaming ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: nestagj on Friday 30 July 10 17:48 BST (UK): Here we are then more info on the Stangroom family – I will do the same for the other Bryceson children when I am in the mood – it makes a change from looking for Jones’ and other good (common) welsh names ! If anyone has already done it please let me know I can’t remember seeing much apart from Steve’s line. I do enjoy moving towards the present in a family line and have been working on a section of our family which we have lost contact with. If anyone want the unedited version - which is also a bit tidier please pm me your email address and I will send you the word doc. Let me just hint that I think (as long as my assumptions are correct) Steve has definitely got some distant Bryceson relatives out there.

Please remember this is all supposition from using the online indexes available certificates would be required to confirm the information

Edith Sarah Stangroom married Stanley Ernest Atwell on the 2nd January 1916 at Christ Church, Jamaica Street (another Church that’s now gone) http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1508785 . Their record is on the London Marriages; the marriage was witnessed by Walter James Stangroom and Florence Ethel Stangroom; his father was William Atwell, Engineer and her’s (as we know) Walter James Stangroom, Carman. His occupation is listed as Fitter and she’s a Machinist. Both residences are listed as 102 Dempsey Street.
I can only find one child Stanley Ernest born in the June quarter of 1917 in Hackney; he married Audrey Maude Greengrass (1924) in the June quarter of 1947in Essex and they had one child in the June quarter of 1948 xxxxx again in Hackney.
There are two possible deaths for Stanley (1) one in 1979 at Waltham Forest and one in 1971 in Hendon but considering that Edith died in 1970 in Waltham Forest I would assume the first is correct. Audrey died at Reading in July 2004 and Stanley (2) in August 2005 in Harlow in Essex.

1. Chunk of info about living people

NB – Audrey Maude Greengrass in mistrascribed as Greengrase and their child has been mistranscribed as xxxxx on A*** but correctly on FindMyPast.

Walter Bryceson Stangroom married Edith H Danson in Croydon in the December quarter of 1914 they had two children Gladys Edith born in the December quarter of 1915 and Walter J born in the March quarter of 1921 both in West Ham. The gap between the children would suggest some kind of Military service and I have found a possible medal card for him but nothing else – but of course the records aren’t all there.

Walter B died in Darwen Lancs in 1962 aged 78 and Edith died in Lancs in 1966 aged 78.

Gladys married a Ramsay G G Langlands in Surrey in the June quarter of 1939; I’ve found his birth in the June quarter of 1912 in Northumberland. I can’t trace any children here despite such unusual names. She died in November 1991 in Surrey and he died in December 1986 again in Surrey.

Walter J (I assume James) married a Sylvia P Moore in the March quarter of 1943 in Surrey . Sylvia died in Leeds in 1981 and Walter in 1982 in Huddersfield.

1. Chunk of info about living people

Florence Ethel Stangroom has been harder to trace and the closest I can find is a Florence Ethel Stancombe who marries a Charles Crisp in the December quarter of 1921 in Surrey. There is only one Crisp / Stancombe birth and that’s in Devon in 1924 but there are no Crisp / Stangroom births. I’m not sure its so easy to make assumptions. Thing is there are too many Florence Crisp deaths but no Florence Stangroom deaths.

Please any corrections anyone can make throw them into the pot.
N
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 31 July 10 04:49 BST (UK): Quote from: Mongibello on Friday 30 July 10 16:50 BST (UK)
There is a Nathaniel White in Great Quebec Street, Marylebone in the '41 census, a Chairmaker aged 50, not born in Middlesex.
There is a N W married in Marylebone in 1844 but he is described as "Gent" in the occupation column. So rather unlikely.
There is a N W who died in December Quarter of 1862 (i.e. c71yrs if it is the same one). I will try to check the records when I am at Westminster next Tuesday. He may be buried in the Marylebone cemetery which is just along the North Circular Road from the Islington one.

I also found this death. Is it the same one?:
Nathaniel White
died 4th Oct 1862
age 77 of 'old age'
St Marylebone, Westminster.

Deb is right, I traced the charimaker Nathaniel White through the censuses and he seems to be living in a good area with a steady job, so I have my doubts that this is our Nathaniel White, pauper, father of Nathaniel.

Unless we have some kind of clue, we are really only guessing. It could even be that Nathaniel's father was passing through London - and could have come from, and returned to ... anywhere. :-\

Steven, in one of your first posts you mentioned that there was a rumour in the family of illegitimacy and mention of the surname White. Are you able to speak to any older relatives who may know a little more
about this rumour? Anything at all that may help us track Nathaniel down. :-\

[Gee you've been busy nestagj! Great stuff. We might want to check with Mongibello before tracing any other descendants as he has already done some work on this I believe. ;)]

ADDED:
Nathaniel's marriage to Sarah Clark
June 18 1854
Nathaniel Bryceson, full age, commercial clerk, residence: Edwards Cottages, father: Nathaniel Bryceson,
cabinet maker

- Cabinet maker is not a million miles from Chair maker
- I wonder if Nathaniel knew he was born White but said he was Bryceson to appear more respectable
- I would say that he did know, and that is how he knew his father's occupation (maybe Mary told him the truth onher death bed? ;)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 31 July 10 05:02 BST (UK): Steven, I suspected we wouldn't have any luck finding graves at St Anne Soho. Shame. :(

You are just making it worse with all this teasing about the famous August diary entry!

Thinking about Nathaniel White chairmaker again. I can't see Mary having a relationship with a pauper so this may be the right Nathaniel White, and perhaps he was just down on his luck or ill so was in the workhouse. I think he's the only likely one in the area at the time.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Daisy Loo on Saturday 31 July 10 10:11 BST (UK): Just a little thought, and I may be way off base...but the info on the baptism, is only as good as the informant gives...so although Nathaniel White was down as pauper, this may have had more to do with him not wanting to take financial responsibility, could he either have deceived Mary, or perhaps Mary was covering for him...just another scenario.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Siamese Girl on Saturday 31 July 10 10:17 BST (UK): Quote from: Daisy Loo on Saturday 31 July 10 10:11 BST (UK)
Just a little thought, and I may be way off base...but the info on the baptism, is only as good as the informant gives...so although Nathaniel White was down as pauper, this may have had more to do with him not wanting to take financial responsibility, could he either have deceived Mary, or perhaps Mary was covering for him...just another scenario.

I wondered that but as the overseer who was responsible to try and chase up the bastardy bonds would also probably have been connected with the workhouse I'd imagine he would have known exactly who was in the workhouse ???

Carole
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: ShaunJ on Saturday 31 July 10 10:20 BST (UK): My understanding is that it was necessary to register as a pauper in order to receive free medical attention in a workhouse infirmary. Therefore all workhouse births were, by definition, pauper births.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Daisy Loo on Saturday 31 July 10 10:37 BST (UK): Quote from: ShaunJ on Saturday 31 July 10 10:20 BST (UK)
My understanding is that it was necessary to register as a pauper in order to receive free medical attention in a workhouse infirmary. Therefore all workhouse births were, by definition, pauper births.

So if NB was born in a workhouse...wouldn't that mean that Mary must have registered as the pauper? Do we know where NB was born?

Added: (apologies if this has been covered already) http://www.workhouses.org.uk/index.html?StMarylebone/StMarylebone.shtml - records are held at the LMA - could be worth looking up to see if Nathaniel was born there? - could offer more detail ???
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Mongibello on Saturday 31 July 10 11:46 BST (UK): I went back to Islington Cemetery this morning, with my camera. The Nathaniels are in there somwhere!
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Steven Bryceson on Saturday 31 July 10 13:33 BST (UK): Dear all,

I have spoken to my Nan about the illegitimacy story but have already told you all she knows - not very much, ie. that there was an illegitimate child born White whose name was then changed to Bryceson. Clearly this is NB

I loved the cemetery picture and look forward to searching there soon.

I am excited about trying to find some more living descendants of NB too!

And now, for something really exciting, I have recieved NB's death certificate.

I shall try to post it here!

Peace and joy,

Steven.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: nestagj on Saturday 31 July 10 13:41 BST (UK): I guess - his daughter as informant ? Looking forward to seeing the cert !

I thought some of our cemeteries around here were bad - there are very few overgrown with trees though its usually just brambles and lots and lots of high grass. The thing that always worries me is snakes ::) there is one church yard on the peninsula near where we live with a notice saying "Danger Adders, enter at your own risk" !!! course I think that every time I see an overgrown church yard now !

Mongibello - brilliant photo - how much have you done about his descendants ?

N
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 31 July 10 13:43 BST (UK): Wow Mongibello! Thanks for making the trip and taking the photo. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm itching to get in there and explore! ;D

Is there anyone who can show you the exact location of the grave on a map, and tell you if there is (or was in case it has fallen) a headstone? (And if there is anyone else buried with the Nathaniels?)

It does look lovely and wild. Is it one of those cemeteries where the vegetation is protected or are you allowed to go tramping around?

It looks like a working party might be required. (I'm serious ;))

I just saw your post Steven - thanks for talking to your Nan about this. I hope one of your new found cousins who you haven't met yet, will have heard the story too and maybe know a little bit more. Do you think you may be able to get a team together some time to have a stab at finding Nathaniel's grave in all that undergrowth?
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Steven Bryceson on Saturday 31 July 10 13:45 BST (UK): It is too big a file! So, here is the info:

SUB-DISTRICT: MILE END OLD TOWN SOUTH WESTERN

WHEN AND WHERE DIED
23rd March 1911, 102 Dempsey Street

NAME AND SURNAME
Nathaniel Bryceson

SEX
Male

AGE
84 years

OCCUPATION
Formerly a commercial clerk

CAUSE OF DEATH
Senile Degeneration Exhaustion (Certified by J W Fordham L R C P)

SIGNATURE, DESCRIPTION AND RESIDENCE OF INFORMANT
H. Bryceson, son, in attendance, 28 York Rd, Forest Gate

WHEN REGISTERED
23rd March 1911

SIGNATURE OF REGISTRAR
E A Parsons Deputy Registrar

END
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 31 July 10 13:48 BST (UK): Oh thank you for the information Steven. Now we have a date. ;D Your gggrandfather (hope I've got the coreect number of 'greats') was the informant! Did you have his address prior to this?
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 31 July 10 13:52 BST (UK): Quote from: SteveBryceson on Saturday 31 July 10 13:45 BST (UK)

WHEN AND WHERE DIED
23rd March 1911, 102 Dempsey Street

NAME AND SURNAME
Nathaniel Bryceson

AGE
84 years

CAUSE OF DEATH
Senile Degeneration Exhaustion (Certified by J W Fordham L R C P)

Although he lived to a good age and he's not my ancestor, I still find this quite sad ...
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 31 July 10 13:56 BST (UK): Quote from: Daisy Loo on Saturday 31 July 10 10:37 BST (UK)
Quote from: ShaunJ on Saturday 31 July 10 10:20 BST (UK)
My understanding is that it was necessary to register as a pauper in order to receive free medical attention in a workhouse infirmary. Therefore all workhouse births were, by definition, pauper births.

So if NB was born in a workhouse...wouldn't that mean that Mary must have registered as the pauper? Do we know where NB was born?

Added: (apologies if this has been covered already) http://www.workhouses.org.uk/index.html?StMarylebone/StMarylebone.shtml - records are held at the LMA - could be worth looking up to see if Nathaniel was born there? - could offer more detail ???

Hi Daisy. I too was wondering if there was anything more we could find out about this.

Mongibello, I'm not sure if this is something you would be able or willing to try to chase up?
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: alpinecottage on Saturday 31 July 10 14:07 BST (UK): Quote from: Ruskie on Saturday 31 July 10 13:52 BST (UK)
Quote from: SteveBryceson on Saturday 31 July 10 13:45 BST (UK)

WHEN AND WHERE DIED
23rd March 1911, 102 Dempsey Street

NAME AND SURNAME
Nathaniel Bryceson

AGE
84 years

CAUSE OF DEATH
Senile Degeneration Exhaustion (Certified by J W Fordham L R C P)

Although he lived to a good age and he's not my ancestor, I still find this quite sad ...

I know what you mean, Ruskie. To us, Nat is a young man, with his life unrolling in front of us and knowing how and when he died is like seeing into his future. I'm getting all philosophical and existential here....sigh
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 31 July 10 14:17 BST (UK): Quote from: alpinecottage on Saturday 31 July 10 14:07 BST (UK)
Quote from: Ruskie on Saturday 31 July 10 13:52 BST (UK)
Quote from: SteveBryceson on Saturday 31 July 10 13:45 BST (UK)

WHEN AND WHERE DIED
23rd March 1911, 102 Dempsey Street

NAME AND SURNAME
Nathaniel Bryceson

AGE
84 years

CAUSE OF DEATH
Senile Degeneration Exhaustion (Certified by J W Fordham L R C P)

Although he lived to a good age and he's not my ancestor, I still find this quite sad ...

I know what you mean, Ruskie. To us, Nat is a young man, with his life unrolling in front of us and knowing how and when he died is like seeing into his future. I'm getting all philosophical and existential here....sigh

You've put that very well Alpine. I'm not usually sentimental even with my own ancestors - but I know Nathaniel a lot better than my own .... and I'm very fond of him.

It sounds a bit weird but not knowing where he was buried or having his death certificate kindof felt like he was still alive - now this is all so final. It's got me thinking about December and that final diary entry ... :'( Not looking forward to that at all ...
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 31 July 10 14:33 BST (UK): I am thinking/hoping that as Nathaniel didn't die until 1911, that there just MAY be a photograph of him somewhere ... ;D

I think we need to find some more descendants in case one of them has a photo. Possibly more likely to be with the Stangrooms as he lived with them?
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Saturday 31 July 10 14:51 BST (UK): Morning all

WOW ...you guys have been busy while I was sleeping .....

The Photo is FABULOUS ...thanks Mongibello :)

:'( .... I too am sad at how Nat died.... I wonder if senile degeneration in those days equals Alzheimers of these days. :-\

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Saturday 31 July 10 15:31 BST (UK): re : Nathaniel White

another death:

Nathaniel White: New street, St John, Horselydown, age 52, buried 6 August 1834

I am trying to wrap my head around this ... Mary's husband John dies ...she get together with NW and has NB. Granny must have been maybe just a little upset with Mary :-\. Why didn't Mary marry NW? Was NW much older than her or maybe even younger than her?

NW could have died before 1841.

1841:
Tower Hamlets, hackney
Nathaniel White, 40, MS , NBIC

or ...what if NW was already married?

Tottenham
High rd
Nathaniel White, 30, tallow??chandler ?? ith wife and children ...

screen wobbly will be back
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Steven Bryceson on Saturday 31 July 10 17:50 BST (UK): Remember "Nathaniel Bryceson lives on" Ruskie!
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Saturday 31 July 10 17:56 BST (UK): Hi Steven

I can't imagine what this must be like for you!

I think somehow we have all become part of Nathaniel's 'family'! :D

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Saturday 31 July 10 18:23 BST (UK): Hi everyone

I have been googling NB today and found this:

added : SCRAP THIS ... Martha Browning as the lady hanged for murdering Elizabeth Mundell ...
:-[ :-[ :-[

Has this woman's name been mentioned yet?

Martha Browning: Coal Person Biographical Entry
The name "Martha Browning" has appeared in 5 articles that referenced Coal on 3 different days. The name may have appeared supporting this topic, against it, or in a separate context in the article. This biographical entry simply demarks the name Martha Browning as having appeared in articles suggesting context with Coal.

Articles in which this person appears also mention the following names:

Name: Count :
Nathaniel Bryceson 5
Elizabeth Mundell 5
Sarah Clark 2
St James 2
Londoner Nathaniel Bryceson 1

not sure what this is all about ...but I found it interesting that NB was mentioned as was Sarah Clark .... NB's wife's name!

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Steven Bryceson on Saturday 31 July 10 18:37 BST (UK): NB mentions Martha Browning in January and it seems several articles about the serialization of the Diary quote this reference along with info about NB (his wife, work, etc). Peace, Steven.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Saturday 31 July 10 18:46 BST (UK): Thanks Steven

I had just made an addition to my last post near the top .... I realised that martha had murdered Elizabeth Mundell and was hanged for it. :-X

deb :)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: steve_gus on Saturday 31 July 10 18:57 BST (UK): Senile Degeneration Exhaustion might just be a complicated way of saying Old Age?

Dictionary def of Senile (or one of them) is 'old' - its not paired in this case with the word dementia. A google of the phrase comes up with very little.

Re the burial site - at least it looks like trees and not gorse bushes - you might be able to wear a couple pairs of jeans and a couple stout coats and head covering and push through some of whats in the picture - with gorse bushes you will likely be calling the fire brigade in a few metres to extract you.

I think if we did se a pic of Nat that might also be a bit of a shock, as in our minds Nat is 20, a pic is likely to show an old man. But still good to see none the less.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 31 July 10 23:07 BST (UK): Quote from: deb usa on Saturday 31 July 10 15:31 BST (UK)
re : Nathaniel White

another death:

Nathaniel White: New street, St John, Horselydown, age 52, buried 6 August 1834

I am trying to wrap my head around this ... Mary's husband John dies ...she get together with NW and has NB. Granny must have been maybe just a little upset with Mary :-\. Why didn't Mary marry NW? Was NW much older than her or maybe even younger than her?

NW could have died before 1841.

1841:
Tower Hamlets, hackney
Nathaniel White, 40, MS , NBIC

or ...what if NW was already married?

Tottenham
High rd
Nathaniel White, 30, tallow??chandler ?? with wife and children ...

Of course Deb! It's possible that Nathaniel White died before 1841.

I think we mentioned this before, but if Nathaniel White was ill and unable to work I suppose he may have been a pauper and in the workhouse. If he died this would explain why he and Mary didn't marry or stay together.

I think it would be very worthwhile to try to locate the (likely) workhouse registers.

And maybe we should be looking for the death of a NW who was a cabinet maker? :-\ What a job! :-\

It's impossible to know what Granny Shepard thought about Mary and her relationship with Nathaniel White but gee I'd love to find out! :)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 31 July 10 23:10 BST (UK): Quote from: SteveBryceson on Saturday 31 July 10 17:50 BST (UK)
Remember "Nathaniel Bryceson lives on" Ruskie!

He does Steven - he does.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 31 July 10 23:21 BST (UK): Quote from: steve_gus on Saturday 31 July 10 18:57 BST (UK)
Senile Degeneration Exhaustion might just be a complicated way of saying Old Age?

Dictionary def of Senile (or one of them) is 'old' - its not paired in this case with the word dementia. A google of the phrase comes up with very little.

Re the burial site - at least it looks like trees and not gorse bushes - you might be able to wear a couple pairs of jeans and a couple stout coats and head covering and push through some of whats in the picture - with gorse bushes you will likely be calling the fire brigade in a few metres to extract you.

I think if we did se a pic of Nat that might also be a bit of a shock, as in our minds Nat is 20, a pic is likely to show an old man. But still good to see none the less.

Yes Steve you may be right about the cause of death. Your logic makes sense. :)

So are you volunteering to be part of the 'working party' to locate the grave? ;D

Yes you're right about our perception of Nat being of a young person and seeing him as elderly would be a bit of a shock. At the moment I'm visualising him as looking the same as Henry (in the picture posted by Steven).

Mongibello - have you seen the picture? It's hidden away in one of the other threads, but I'll see if I can track it down. :)

ADDED:
The photo of Henry Bryceson, Nathaniel's son, is on
Part 3, page 7
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: steve_gus on Sunday 01 August 10 00:41 BST (UK): I would like to think of him as a 20 YO such as in the diary, a lot like myself in fact if I imagine 31 years away :)

Nats grave is only 5.2 miles from my parents house - which however is 70+ miles from mine. I would certainly like to visit....... but I think a bit of up front preparation needed and ideally with all those trees winter would be a better option = no leaves.

I note the death cert says former clerk - if nat had worked his way to being an Accountant, I wonder why it doesnt state that instead?

steve
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Siamese Girl on Sunday 01 August 10 08:57 BST (UK): August 1st.

The storm in London made the newspapers. Some reckoned nearly £100,000 damage was done. Cellars were flooded and the "iron steamer" Citizen B was struck by lightening on the Thames which destroyed part of the starboard paddle box. Glass roofs were destroyed everywhere including the glass roof above the picture gallery at Buckingham Palace was almost totally destroyed and the gallery flooded. In fact it doesn't look as if much glass survived anywhere in London. The other big problem was it showed how inadequate the sewer system was as they were unable to cope.

London is in desperate need of Mr Joseph Bazalgette to sort it all out but it's another 10 years before he gets to work and in the meantime thousands of Londoners will die from cholera.

Carole
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: steve_gus on Sunday 01 August 10 12:17 BST (UK): Interesting the picture with todays entry - Richmond buildings shown as a sketch in 1970! In my mind they had been long gone. Now we can also 'see' where nat lived

Quote from: Siamese Girl on Sunday 01 August 10 08:57 BST (UK)
August 1st.
London is in desperate need of Mr Joseph Bazalgette to sort it all out but it's another 10 years before he gets to work and in the meantime thousands of Londoners will die from cholera.
Carole

Three or four years ago the BBC did a really great documentary on Bazalgette. he also did major streets in london (shaftsbury ave I think) and the Thames embankment. The embankment hides the lower outfall sewers from hsi scheme, all of which (apart from the pumping stations and tanks that released the sewerage furhter down the thames as the tide went out) is still in use. Crossness pumping station has some lovely old pumping engines Id love to see.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Steven Bryceson on Sunday 01 August 10 12:37 BST (UK): Dear all, What an amazing entry today. Steve-gus, I am close to the cemetery too (in Walthamstow). Let me know when you are down at your parents. I hope to get to the grave soon. Great to see the sketch of Richmond Buildings! Peace and joy, Steven.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Sunday 01 August 10 14:57 BST (UK): The storm Nathaniel mentions comes up on a google search with lots of hits, so a very noteworthy event:

One mention:
1st August 1846 - Hailstones broke 7000 panes of glass in the Houses of Parliament. The glass arcade that covered the pavements of Regent Street was smashed to smithereens.

I am curious about Richmond Buildings. To me it looks like a row of substantial houses. Does anyone know if they were originally built as houses for the wealthy, then split into rooms or bedsit type accomodation (similar what's happening today in large and not so large houses in cities in the UK, mores the pity :-\) Or would they have been purpose built as rooms to let?

I think someone posted a link to a drawing of Richmond Buildings possibly in Part 1 - it may even have been the same one.

Anyone who plans to venture to the grave, please go well equiped (with your cameras :)). What an adventure! Wish I was there ... :(
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: ShaunJ on Sunday 01 August 10 15:02 BST (UK): Some history of Richmond Buildings http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=41105
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: ShaunJ on Sunday 01 August 10 15:08 BST (UK): Have we had Charles Booth's description of Richmond Buildings? http://booth.lse.ac.uk/notebooks/b354/jpg/221.html
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Sunday 01 August 10 15:11 BST (UK): Thanks Shaun. Well, by that description it sounds as though they were originally built as single dwellings with some fairly illustrious occupants in the early days. I would love to know what it was like inside in Nathaniel's day. :)

Just saw your next post. I will read the Booth link now.
(added: Very interesting description :) - but a few years after Nathaniel's time)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Sunday 01 August 10 16:25 BST (UK): Morning all

Great entry today ...must have been pretty scary!

I have forgotten who has been found re: NB's children .... and trying to find some living rellies for Steven.

John Shepard Bryceson was b ~~1869~~ 1860 ...I can see a marriage for him in 1894 but cannot see him or his wife on the 1901. I believe he remarries 1907 .

1894 marriage John SHEPERD Bryceson to either:
Sarah Burnham or Alice Jane Burrows
Kensington
1a 271

jun q 1907 marriage John SHEPHERD Bryceson to either:
Emma Campion or Gertrude Lyne ... 3 men on page only 2 women ... :-\
Islington
1b 600

I think I need to reread the threads and possibly make a new summary

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: avm228 on Sunday 01 August 10 16:58 BST (UK): Quote from: deb usa on Sunday 01 August 10 16:25 BST (UK)

jun q 1907 marriage John SHEPHERD Bryceson to either:
Emma Campion or Gertrude Lyne ... 3 men on page only 2 women ... :-\
Islington
1b 600

His second wife was Gertrude - much younger than him! She may be the Gerty Lyne who in 1901 was at RG13/1399/76/52 - b abt 1879 Salford, Oxfordshire. Birth reg is Mar qtr 1879 Chipping Norton.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: avm228 on Sunday 01 August 10 17:17 BST (UK): Quote from: deb usa on Sunday 01 August 10 16:25 BST (UK)

John Shepard Bryceson was b 1869 ...I can see a marriage for him in 1894 but cannot see him or his wife on the 1901. I believe he remarries 1907 .

He was actually born in 1860 (2 April according to his baptism record) and baptised at St Mary Islington on 12 Dec 1869. Parents Nathaniel BRYCESON, commercial clerk, and Sarah, of Edwarded Cottages.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Sunday 01 August 10 17:49 BST (UK): Thanks for that avm228 :D and setting me straight re: his DOB ... I should have looked more carefully

There is so much info that we have already collected that it starts getting confusing! :-\

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Steven Bryceson on Sunday 01 August 10 18:52 BST (UK): I don't envy anyone planning to summarise all that has been discovered so far! I have created an excel spreadsheet showing descendants (inc living ones). If I could work out how to post the non-living parts on here I would. Peace and joy, Steven.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Mongibello on Sunday 01 August 10 19:01 BST (UK): I will ring the cemetery tomorrow to see if they can pinpoint the grave. From the numbers on the ones I looked at they did not look to be in any particular order. They may also know if there is a headstone.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Steven Bryceson on Sunday 01 August 10 19:05 BST (UK): This is great news Mongibello! It goes without saying that removing plant-growth from graves needs to be done carefully to avoid damage to the graves themselves. I have some experience of this, having been the custodian of a churchyard for 6 years (but, thankfully, no longer)! Peace and joy, Steven.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: MaryA on Sunday 01 August 10 20:41 BST (UK): I think the first marriage was likely to be to Sarah Burnham since I don't see any deaths for an Alice Bryceson but there are two for

Sarah Anne Bryceson Q3 1901 Hendon Middlesex 3a 124 age 43 and
Sarah Bryceson Q4 1899 Strand London 1b 470 age 37
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 02 August 10 02:13 BST (UK): Quote from: Steven Bryceson on Sunday 01 August 10 19:05 BST (UK)
... removing plant-growth from graves needs to be done carefully to avoid damage to the graves themselves. I have some experience of this, having been the custodian of a churchyard for 6 years

You will be perfect for the job then Steven! ;D

Mongibello, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a positive result from the cemetery.

Deb, I know you've mentioned it before, and I know you're right - we need to update our findings and the summary ... I've been kindof updating the timeline which I have on my desktop, but it is really concise and in short note form and doesn't say what we still need to find. I also still have many census findings to add to it.

I DO have a list of questions/lookups for Mongibello to do at Westminster Archives. I was going to email the list to him, but maybe I will post it on here as it may clarify what we still need to find. :-\

...........................................................................................................................................

It seems like we are all fairly interested in finding some living cousins for Steven. (and I'm on a mission to find a photo of Nathaniel ;D)

I believe Mongibello has already traced some descendants, so we want to try to avoid duplication. We know Steven has descendants of Henry. Maybe we should get a bit organised here.

I think we can go far enough so as to not give names of anyone possibly living, but also to make it clear who has been found. Possibly saying Female born 1924 Manchester, Male born 1928 Manchester - that kind of thing ...

So ...

Steven, can you tell us who you have and where any gaps are on Henry's line?

Mongibello, can you tell us which of Nathaniel's children's descendants you've traced and where any gaps are? And is there anything you're unsure about or can't find or maybe need a second opinion on?

Then we can make a tree/report, get organised and try to fill in the gaps.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 02 August 10 02:21 BST (UK): I enjoyed today's diary entry. Nathaniel and M Ward must get on well enough if they spent the day together. Nathaniel must sleep well on Sunday nights after his long and strenuous outings. Odd sentences in italics - I wonder what that's all about?

I'm trying to work something else out and will need to check on a map - but, how can they have arrived at Hungerford at 10 o'clock and then get home 15 minutes later at quarter past 10? Did they travel by train from Hungerford? Even so, I would think it would take longer than 15 minutes? :-\
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Dinkydidy on Monday 02 August 10 02:44 BST (UK): It sounds like an enjoyable excursion. Re the italics - was Nat afraid someone in the family might read it and think he was pleased about being such a penny-pincher? I assumed he had paid for at least part of Mattie's outing.

I did wonder about the reason for Mattie accompanying him. Nat seems quite happy in his own company on most of his outings - except when he meets Ann. ;)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Monday 02 August 10 02:57 BST (UK): Morning all

Evening Ruskie ;D Just tried to call you ...but you're not there ::)

I would love Steven to be in touch with living rellies ...NB had kids some living some died early ...I think we need a little summary...ie: who married who and kiddies names (POB and DOB)

I am still perturbed that I cannot see John Shepard Bryceson in 1901 ...very strange! I was also wondering if any family members had immigrated ...can't see any yet ...but do not have all the names. I was also wondering if any family had served in WWI , but yet again we need names.

I think I have an affinity to John Shepard Bryceson as NB maybe wanted to remember his lovely Granny!

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Dinkydidy on Monday 02 August 10 03:00 BST (UK): According to my map Hungerford was less than a mile from Nat's home - an easy 15 minutes.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Dinkydidy on Monday 02 August 10 03:04 BST (UK): I can't remember if anyone's mentioned this particular map, but it's the same year as Nat's current diary, so is useful for following his tracks.

http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/snow/1846map/3_2bw.htm
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Monday 02 August 10 03:07 BST (UK): hi again

Was the Palace open for excursions in those days? I cannot even bear to think of the damage in the gallery (paintings) of the Palace the night before when the storm happened.

the italics ...very strange as he mentions the 3rd August ...so was he writing in his diary after midnight of the 2nd?

"expenses of this were cheap for myself. Mattie cost me about 2s.Monday 3rd August 1846"

deb

red post ...hi dinky
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: tedscout on Monday 02 August 10 03:20 BST (UK): Children that I have born to Nathaniel and Sarah

Sarah Clark Bryceson 1855 – 1855
Nathaniel Bryceson 1856 – 1911?
Sarah Maria Bryceson 1858 – (married Walter James Stangroom)
John Shepherd Bryceson 1860 – 1913 (probably married Sarah Burnham)
Henry Bryceson 1864 – 1826
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Dinkydidy on Monday 02 August 10 03:28 BST (UK): Hi all

Just thought I'd mention that Dempsey Street is clearly shown on the above map - refer section 3-5(X) in the top RH corner. It runs north/south between Green St and Charles St, which in turn runs NE off Commercial Rd.

Didy
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Monday 02 August 10 03:34 BST (UK): hi

strange that it runs through GREEN st as Ann Fox has a birth place as Green St or Queen Street in 1851 ...maybe new eyes can have another look ....please ....

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Monday 02 August 10 03:36 BST (UK): Quote from: Dinkydidy on Monday 02 August 10 03:04 BST (UK)
I can't remember if anyone's mentioned this particular map, but it's the same year as Nat's current diary, so is useful for following his tracks.

http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/snow/1846map/3_2bw.htm

great map ...thanks Dinky

added ... it's a MAZE of streets ...good grief!!!!!! ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Monday 02 August 10 03:43 BST (UK): dinky ..I went to 3-5X and still cannot see Dempsey street ...am I blind?

deb

added .... found it! LOL
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 02 August 10 06:41 BST (UK): Quote from: Dinkydidy on Monday 02 August 10 03:00 BST (UK)
According to my map Hungerford was less than a mile from Nat's home - an easy 15 minutes.

I was thinking he meant Hungerford in Berkshire. I just checked google maps and it's 68 miles from this Hungerford Berkshire to Richmond Buildings. ;D

Where is the other Hungerford? I'm sure this must be the one as Nat is spot on with all these timing details. ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 02 August 10 06:46 BST (UK): Quote from: Dinkydidy on Monday 02 August 10 03:04 BST (UK)
I can't remember if anyone's mentioned this particular map, but it's the same year as Nat's current diary, so is useful for following his tracks.

http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/snow/1846map/3_2bw.htm

Nice map (I haven't seen this one before). Very useful to have one from 1846. :)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 02 August 10 06:54 BST (UK): Hungerford bridge and pier are near Embankment tube station, near the end of Northumberland Avenue. It's just a short walk down to the river from Soho.

1850 painting of Hungerford Bridge and pier http://www.artfund.org/artwork/5523/hungerford-pier-and-footbridge

And a nice engraving of the pier from 1869 http://www.londonancestor.com/victorian-london/hungerford-pier.htm
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 02 August 10 06:57 BST (UK): Quote from: tedscout on Monday 02 August 10 03:20 BST (UK)
Children that I have born to Nathaniel and Sarah

Sarah Clark Bryceson 1855 – 1855
Nathaniel Bryceson 1856 – 1911? Yes, he died in Feb 1911)
Sarah Maria Bryceson 1858 – (married Walter James Stangroom)
John Shepherd Bryceson 1860 – 1913 (probably married Sarah Burnham)
Henry Bryceson 1864 – 1826

Also maybe:
Mary Shepard Bryceson 1861-1863
Mary Ward Bryceson 1865-1865 (he must have had some fondness for Matthew Ward)
(that accounts for the 3 female deaths that Westminster Archives say the family had)

There are also these which may belong to a different family as I don't think they fit too well in between the known children:

John William b Dec 1857
Samuel b Dec 1859
Charles James b Mar 1863

Mongibello, do you have Sarah (Clark) Bryceson's death certificate? I am curious to find out what she died from.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 02 August 10 06:58 BST (UK): Quote from: ShaunJ on Monday 02 August 10 06:54 BST (UK)
Hungerford bridge and pier are near Embankment tube station, near the end of Northumberland Avenue. It's just a short walk down to the river from Soho.

1850 painting of Hungerford Bridge and pier http://www.artfund.org/artwork/5523/hungerford-pier-and-footbridge

And a nice engraving of the pier from 1869 http://www.londonancestor.com/victorian-london/hungerford-pier.htm

Excellent, thanks Shaun! ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: tedscout on Monday 02 August 10 07:01 BST (UK): Thanks Ruskie - I'll add them to the tree.

I've been a bit slack updating things. When were the 3 female deaths talked about so I can go back and add that info.

;D Ted
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Siamese Girl on Monday 02 August 10 08:08 BST (UK): Hampton Court Palace opened to the public in 1838. Is this the first Sunday of the year that Nat hasn't spent gathering inscriptions from some church/churchyard or other? If it isn't, it seems like it.

I guess the sentences in italics were added the next day - which must mean that the diary entries were written on the same day as the events took place. It looks as if Nat, parsimonious as ever, managed to get Matthew Ward to pay for some of the outing himself.

BTW. Mattie's back must be better if he could manage that trip.

Carole
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 02 August 10 08:22 BST (UK): Trying to identify the pub at Hampton Court and wondering what he means by it "fronting entrance of palace"

The Kings Arms is next to the Lion Gate http://www.rootschat.com/links/09cw/

The Mitre Hotel is opposite the main entrance: http://www.rootschat.com/links/09cx/
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Steven Bryceson on Monday 02 August 10 08:58 BST (UK): It is obvious to me that they travelled by boat up the Thames, still a popular and beautiful way to get to Hampton Court from central London. Peace and joy, Steven.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 02 August 10 14:18 BST (UK): Grr. >:(

I just lost the message I was going to post. Never mind.

Steven I've just been doing some calculations.

Today is the 2nd of August. In Nathaniel's world it is a Sunday.

Therefore in 7 days time it will be SUNDAY THE 9TH OF AUGUST!

This is the famous 9th of August post that we've all been waiting patiently for. Roll on next Monday!
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 02 August 10 14:25 BST (UK): Details of the steam-boat services on the Thames in 1851 http://www.rootschat.com/links/09d9/

And an 1852 mention of the Echo http://www.rootschat.com/links/09d8/
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Monday 02 August 10 14:40 BST (UK): Hi

I have been looking for John Shepard Bryceson all morning ....

In 1911 he's living in Holborn with Gertrude (2nd wife) so why can't I spot him in 1901 :(

LOL Ruskie ...6 more sleeps until the 9th ;D

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: MaryA on Monday 02 August 10 14:52 BST (UK): Quote from: deb usa on Monday 02 August 10 14:40 BST (UK)
I have been looking for John Shepard Bryceson all morning ....
In 1911 he's living in Holborn with Gertrude (2nd wife) so why can't I spot him in 1901 :(

What was his occupation?

The nearest I have found is RG13; Piece: 21; Folio: 83; Page: 6
1 Holland Place, Kensington Town,
John Briston Boarder S 42 Cab Porter Ewell Surrey

Not really close really, but thinking about how somebody might have taken a guess at the spelling of his name. There's a 50% chance of him not being with his wife.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Mongibello on Monday 02 August 10 15:20 BST (UK): Howzat! as they say in cricket. If anyone wants to find it, get a general plan from the cemetery office; find block V2; walk up Straight Path passing Junction Path; a little further on is the prominent grave of John Marshall on the right. Just beyond and further in is the grave of Merrifield; follow this line in until you come to Spear's grave. Nathaniel is back to back with this one.
Many thanks to the Islington Cemetery staff who gave me a detailed plot plan.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Monday 02 August 10 15:24 BST (UK): Hi

In 1881 JSB is 21, unm and a compositor b Islington ...living with NB and Family

1891
Hampstead, London
John BRYSON, boarder single, printer compositor, b Islington, london
Staying with the Duke Family.
very interesting family ...Music hall artists and their son-in-law is a COFFEE HOUSE KEEPER ...NB so enjoyed these places LOL

John's death
John S Bryceson mar q 1913
age 52
Holborn
1b 820

deb

red post ...Hi Mongibello
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Monday 02 August 10 15:25 BST (UK): WELL DONE, MONGIBELLO ....WOOHOOOOOOO ...... Nathaniel has been found! :D :o
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Siamese Girl on Monday 02 August 10 15:34 BST (UK): Well done Mongibello!!! I honestly didn't think there would be anything to find!

Carole
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: nestagj on Monday 02 August 10 15:38 BST (UK): Fantastic - well done for braving the wilderness !

Is Sarah in there too ?

N
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: mouse49 on Monday 02 August 10 15:40 BST (UK): CONGRATULATIONS ;D

You've all done a great job.

Maybe the restoration group will be able to get something from the photo. They have been known to work miracles.

Lois :)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Mongibello on Monday 02 August 10 15:47 BST (UK): Yes Sarah is at the top and it is just possible to make out "Na" twice below. The rest has been flaked off by the action of ivy and frost.
Incidentally. comparing the Horwood map of c1800, which gives house numbers, with Google Earth, No. 9 Richmond buildings seems to have been replaced by a modern building. Nos. 5 & 6 may be there. I will have a look tomorrow.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Monday 02 August 10 15:50 BST (UK): Mongibello

You MUST have been so excited :D ...please thank the Islington Cemetery Staff for us!!!

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Aniseed on Monday 02 August 10 15:50 BST (UK): Wow!!!! Well done Mongibello! That's brilliant work on your part! Thanks ever so much for posting the photo too. Wow, I never thought I'd see his grave. It feels good to have 'found' him (even though I'm not descended from him, and I wasn't the one who did the finding, but it still feels great!).
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: steve_gus on Monday 02 August 10 17:02 BST (UK): Quote from: Mongibello on Monday 02 August 10 15:47 BST (UK)
Yes Sarah is at the top and it is just possible to make out "Na" twice below. The rest has been flaked off by the action of ivy and frost.
Incidentally. comparing the Horwood map of c1800, which gives house numbers, with Google Earth, No. 9 Richmond buildings seems to have been replaced by a modern building. Nos. 5 & 6 may be there. I will have a look tomorrow.

Well found :) - 4 richmond Mews is now the soho Hotel..... according to google maps.....but would be good to know if anything else is there.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 02 August 10 23:45 BST (UK): I have just logged on this morning to the news that Nathaniel's grave has been found! ;D And we have a headstone albeit in fairly poor condition. ;D

Many many thanks to Mongibello for taking the time to locate, visit and take the photo of the grave, and thanks to the cemetery staff for their help. So Mongibello, was the grave easier to find than you expected? Did you tell the cemetery staff about the mission you were on to find Nathaniel? ;D

This is SO exciting! ;D

I realise that the headstone is no longer readable, but is there a chance that someone may have recorded the MI's from this cemetery? I would love to know what it says.

Of course to us Nathaniel is the star of the show, but remember that Steven has now found both of his ggggrandparents. :)

Those two little saplings front of the stone could do with being removed - are we able to tidy up the area? Is there just the headstone, or might there be some more to this grave?

What a fabulous result. ;D
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Tuesday 03 August 10 00:22 BST (UK): Quote from: Mongibello on Monday 02 August 10 15:47 BST (UK)
Incidentally. comparing the Horwood map of c1800, which gives house numbers, with Google Earth, No. 9 Richmond buildings seems to have been replaced by a modern building. Nos. 5 & 6 may be there. I will have a look tomorrow.

This is interesting. A while ago I looked down Richmond Buildings via street view on google maps.

I find this curious. When Nathaniel lived there was the street (or lane) called Richmond Buildings? Was the street called something else and just the building called Richmond Buildings with each of the seperate entrances to Richmond Buildings given a number? And within that building it seems that there were a number of rented rooms? Today the street is called Richmond Buildings - it looks like the whole street is modern builds, but at the entrance to the street (on ~~either~~ one side) ~~are some~~ is an older buildings which look like ~~they~~ it may have been around in 1846.

It was interesting to read that Richmond Buildings dated from the 1700's so they would have been old when Nathaniel and his family lived there.

A tiny photo from 1964 here:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=41250#s1
(can someone clever enlarge this please?)

From the British History Online link provided earlier is this:
"...this cul-de-sac was built on the site of Cockpit Court ... Richmond Buildings was begun in 1732, the date inscribed on tablets on the return faces of no 80 Dean St and of No 80B Dean St ..."

There is an illustration of the tablet which reads:
Richmonds Buildings
1732
Rebuilt 1916

So am I right in thinking that Richmond Buildings was on both sides of the street and the ends of Richmond Buildings facing out to Dean St (and currently still the corners of Richmond Buildings and Dean Street) had these tablets afixed to them? So the buildings I saw on google maps which I thought looked old, may be the original 'ends' of Richmond Buildings? Mongibello, maybe if you go to RIchmond Buildings could you please check the buildings on the corner of Dean Street to see if there ~~are~~ is still a 'tablets' on the buildings, or maybe a clue which indicates that there may once have been a tablets on the ends of the buildings?

~~I will check my maps again, but sounds like Richmond Mews may later have been joined up with Richmond Buildings.~~ No, it looking at an old map it seems that it was always a similar street layout to today.
:)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: steve_gus on Tuesday 03 August 10 00:42 BST (UK): my take, poss wrong, is that richmond buildings were in the street called (on my google map) richmond mews - assuming the street hasnt been renamed.

When I try streetview, you cant 'walk' down the st, only stand at the end. The building you can see at the end of the street looks very like the Soho Hotel, as per pics on its website

PS - isnt there some rule about a 20 page maximum? :)

EDIT : - Looking on www.multimap.com, it calls the first part of the st buildings, and the 2nd mews. Looks to me that none of the buildings look like the drawing posted in a ling 3 or so pages back. However, Multimap does allow you to 'fly' over and see 4 different views.... this one looks best.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Tuesday 03 August 10 00:54 BST (UK): Quote from: steve_gus on Tuesday 03 August 10 00:42 BST (UK)
my take, poss wrong, is that richmond buildings were in the street called (on my google map) richmond mews - assuming the street hasnt been renamed.

When I try streetview, you cant 'walk' down the st, only stand at the end. The building you can see at the end of the street looks very like the Soho Hotel, as per pics on its website

PS - isnt there some rule about a 20 page maximum? :)

I got sidetracked and haven't checked the map yet, but will do in in a minute.

Not a 20 rule as such, rather a recommended length. I will lock this and start Part 5 shortly.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Tuesday 03 August 10 01:07 BST (UK): I found Richmond Buildings and Richmond Mews on this old map, just to the left of the bottom left corner of the big red "H". Richmond Buildings is directly off Dean St and then Richmond Mews runs south from Richmond Buildings and parallel with Dean St.
http://www.oldlondonmaps.com/stanfordpages/westminster03b.html

I believe it is the same today.

So the 'tablet' mentioned would be on the the one remaining end of Richmond Buildings facing Dean St?

I have just had a look on google maps street view and note that there is only an old building on one side of the entrance to Richmond buildings - it is No 80. :) The other side is an ugly modern structure. I have amended my previous post to correct my mistakes. ;) And yes, I believe this is possibly what remains of the south side of Richmond Buildings facing Dean St.

I have also been thinking about Nathaniel's mother Mary who we cannot find in the 1841 census, though when she marries she says she is from Dean St. I wonder if she lived in a part of Richmond Buildings facing Dean St? We know Matthew Ward was living in Richmond Buildings in the 1841 census and when he married Mary his address was Richmond Buildings. I wonder if Mary preferred to say her address was Dean St to appear more respectable and so it didn't seem as though they were living together? ;)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Tuesday 03 August 10 01:46 BST (UK): morning Ruskie

You have a point re Mary Bryceson nee Shepard in 1841 ...What if she was with Matthew Ward and told him not to mention her and Nathaniel .... or NB was being babysat by the Vaggs and just became part of the Vagg family in the 1841.

Iam still a little upset that furture researchers will take the Nathaniel Bryceson with mother Ann and sibs in 1841 as fact.... when we know it's not him

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Tuesday 03 August 10 01:56 BST (UK): I wish we could get hold of Steven to let him know of Mongibello's find! He is going to be sooooo excited and grateful!

as Steven would say ..

Peace and Joy

:)
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Tuesday 03 August 10 02:16 BST (UK): Hi Deb, Didn't you see that Tedscout made a correction to the correction for Nathaniel Bryan? ;D Plus a nice little explanatory note. ;D

Steve you're right, I can't go down Richmond Buildings or Richmond Mews on Google Streetview. Looking around the area there are still some old buildings remaining and looking at the drawing and photo of RIchmond Buildings, you can see that some look very similar to Richmond Buildings (just to give us all an idea of how they must have looked :))

An interesting entry again today. How times have changed.

Steven said he was going to be away for a couple of weeks. I don't have facebook, but if anyone does and wishes to tell Steven about the discovery of the graves, could you do it via facebook? Not sure how it all works as I'm not a member. I'm thinking he may continue to check facebook while he's away. I'd love him to hear the good news.
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Tuesday 03 August 10 02:22 BST (UK): Hi Ruskie

I am so glad Ancestry has has let it be noted that the 1841 is in error or rather that there is another explanation for that family!!

deb
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: Ruskie on Tuesday 03 August 10 02:26 BST (UK): Yeah, at least it's something.

Hey Deb, do you think it would be worth chasing up that woman again? Maybe a simple question like:
"which one of Nathaniel Bryceson's children is she (or her husband or whoever) descended from"? Not sure she's be interested in answering a barrage of questions. I'm just curious and there may be photos somewhere. ;)

This topic is now locked because we've gone past 20 pages. You can no longer add comments to this thread.

Please join in or continue to follow this discussion in Part 5 here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=472362.new
Title: Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson (Part 4)
Post by: deb usa on Tuesday 03 August 10 02:39 BST (UK): I have just come back from outside and was thinking of 'out of the box

John Shepard/Sheperd/Shepherd Bryceson's 2nd wife was Gertrude (John s/o Nat b 1860)...I saw that Gertrude Bryceson remarried a guy called Mason ( a few years after JSB died).....I know it's a long shot but maybe some of the Mason kids may have photos etc ...

Ruskie Snap on the photo idea ... the woman (who chhanged the 1841) was from Wales ...I am still wondering if the organ maker people/Brycesons were part of the family ...but and a big BUT ...is that the Brycesons are not blood rellies ...Nathaniel comes from the WHITE family ...BRYCESON has NOTHING to do with NATHANIEL!

deb

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