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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: frankray on Wednesday 21 July 10 09:14 BST (UK)
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speaking of Little Italy in Manchester and of an Italian family that owned the Astley Arms Hotel on Great Ancoats St. in 1912-1913 - does anyone have further knowledge of this pub. Thanks Frank. (Oxford)
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In the 1913 directory at:
Astley Arms Hotel
78 great Ancoats street. Manchester
Ernest Autonelli
No sign of him on the 1927 & 1929 directories, but saying that, the pub/Hotel doesn't appear to be on there? Numbers 74 to 80 are missing? I wonder if it was pulled down then.
Migky ;)
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1911
Mrs Christina Antonelli
Shopkeeper
55 Great Ancoats street, Manchester.
D Antonelli
Mechanical organ builder.
59- 61 Great Ancoats street, Manchester.
also at 2 & 4 Blossom street, Manchester.
Migky ;)
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As i can see all of the above are related. Domenica & Christina were Ernest's parents.
Christina has a still born child buried on 11th March 1896 in Phillips park cemetery.
Roman catholic section, grave number H 485.
As so many of the roman catholic section of the cemetery are missing or grass has grown over them, it would be difficult to find any grave stone, if one survived that is. This is a public grave, with many people in it.
Migky ;)
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Manchester's little Italy ( Memories of little Italy colony of Ancoats by Anthony Rea ) has a page on the Antonelli's. Domenico Antonelli was born 1857 Piciniso. He was trained as a carpenter and later conscripted in to the army. He came to Manchester 1894 and opened his Organ factory on great Ancoats street Manchester. There is a photo of his shop in the book plus it tells a little of this mans small empire he built.
Migky ;)
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There is a world war one medal card for Ernest Antonelli.
Machine Gun Corps
Regimental Number: 119151
but nothing for his brothers or service records as far as i could see?
By the way i think the surname is Antonelli and not Autonellie as quoted in the 1913 directory for Ernest.
Migky ;)
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Hi
Looks ass if they were in Buiscuits by 1953.
All Antonelli's, no Autonellis.
Misses J & E 169 Ayres Rd OT (OLd Trafford I assume) (Corrected Thank You, Migky)
Luigi, Buiscuit Manufacturer (International Buiscuits Co Ltd), Rye Lodge, 209 Washway Rd Sale.
Romolo, buiscuit manufacturer, Same Company, 157 King's Road, Old T.
They must have been doing reasonably, as they all had telephones. Don't know if they're yours but they're the only ones!
Best wishes
Emms :) :) :)
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PS The address of International Buiscuits is given as Progress Works, ASyres Rd, OT.
Emms
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They are all one and the same family Emms
Owned or had business's on a lot of Great Ancoats street at one point.
They had the biscuit company way back in the 1900's
Also think it is Old Trafford not Trafford park.
Was one of the last barrel organ maker in Manchester, the old "Hurdy-gurdy "
owned the international waffer company on Bridgewater street.
They were also whole sale wine merchants.
Click to eat there waffers (http://www.antonelli.co.uk/)
Migky ;)
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Hi :)
Thank you Migky - Slip o9f the keyboard - It was a Trafford Park telephone number! ;) ;) ;)
Emms
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Correction to my first post.
As i Found the name as AUtonelli and not ANtonelli, i only looked for the name with the spelling with the letter U .
Any way had a second look at the name Antonellie and came up with these. 1927
Domenico Antonelli
Foreign provisions dealer.
55 Great Ancoats street.
1927 & 1929
Mrs Ernest Antonelli
Householder.
7 Onley street, C-on-M
Migky ;)
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1929 Luigi Antonelli
Biscuit manufacturer ( International wafer Co )
Res: 80 Rye bank road.
C-cum-H
Migky ;)
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1935 Romolo Antonelli
21 Woodhey Drive
Ashton on mersey
1937 he is at 157 Kings Road.
Migky ;)
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Micky - Emms, Gentlemen: Well resourced, thank you very much whole areas of data are proving helpful especially the address found of the Astley Arms at 78 Gt Ancoats. My plan can now go ahead to locate the 'census owners' of Astley Arms back to 1841, Do either of you have knowledge of the pub pre 1841, I accept this is pushing my luck but on your replies so far after posting the question - I get 9 replies in less than 24 hours - seems my luck might just hold out. Again, thank you. Frank.
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In the 1913 directory at:
Astley Arms Hotel
78 great Ancoats street. Manchester
Ernest Autonelli
No sign of him on the 1927 & 1929 directories, but saying that, the pub/Hotel doesn't appear to be on there? Numbers 74 to 80 are missing? I wonder if it was pulled down then.
Migky ;)
the pubs still standing micky,it was partly rebult some years ago,its on port st,ancoats at the opposite end of jersey st,he was the landlord between 1913 and 1915,but he wasnt to happy with it,because he was a non drinker,so he gave it up.
mack
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Hi Frank
Yes, I've had a look in Pigot's 1828-9.
It was there, and mentioned as a named tavern - at this date many drinking establishments were just liquor license holders in a normal house - unless they were inns.
Under taverns:
Astley's Arms, Thos. Evans, 224 Great Ancoats Street..
I wonder if someone called Astley started it, or if it was used by workers from a firm called Astley, similar to Joiner's Arms etc?
By the way, Frank, I don't know how close to Manchester you are, but if the records survive, you can research the licquor licences and get a pretty decent history of the tavern.
Round here, (Cumbria), they survive from well before 1828 and you get the name of the proposed licensee and of the seconder / proposer, who will often be a relative in the licquor trade. You can see the place pass through different generations and fAamilies to daughter/ son in law and so on. Often a group of families had quite a strong hold on a large group of taverns in a town or even city.
One branch of my family were involved in the liquor trade in Derby, and if you put their name in 19C Newspapers etc you get all sorts of goings on in the inn - inquests, auctions, crimes, etc as well as news of new ownership.
Good luck with the hunt.
Best wishes
Emms :)
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A little more on the history of the Astley arms.
Migky ;)
Click here 4 Astley arms info (http://pubs-of-manchester.blogspot.com/2010/03/astley-arms-great-ancoats-street.html)
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Hi Migky :)
Great site - looks like someone's done the job already!
Emms :) :)
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Between you me and mack, i think we have covered most of the history ;D
Migky ;)
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Emms, Migky: Gentlemen, thank you both so much for the work you did on Astley Arms. There are two more victorian pubs associated with this family: 'The Union' near Rogers street (red bank) owned by Samuel Middleton born 1812 died 1868. and the 'Clockface' mentioned in Trade journals and ran by Isaac Middleton c1840 Prior to this Isaac operated the Smithfiled Inn on Swan Street. Can you throwany further light on the Union and Clockface.
so far I have come up Zip! Frank.
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Hi again! :)
The Union:
In 1828/9 (PIgot's), there are two Unions.
Union Tavern, David Street, operated by Richard Meaden
and also The Union, Rogers Street operated by Elizabeth Harding - Yours I guess?
So they both date from 1828 at least!
Emms :)
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Hi
The Clockface
Clock Face, Joseph Schofield, Higher Ardwick
and also,
Clock Face, George Timmins, 49 Oldham Road.
So those also are at least from this date!
Good night! :)
Emms
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Emms, Migky: Gentlemen, thank you both so much for the work you did on Astley Arms. There are two more victorian pubs associated with this family: 'The Union' near Rogers street (red bank) owned by Samuel Middleton born 1812 died 1868. and the 'Clockface' mentioned in Trade journals and ran by Isaac Middleton c1840 Prior to this Isaac operated the Smithfiled Inn on Swan Street. Can you throwany further light on the Union and Clockface.
so far I have come up Zip! Frank.
hiya frank.
the smithfield as far as i know,is still going,i havent had a beer in manchester town centre for about 18mths,but the pub was still going strong then,it used to have old photos on the wall of former landlords and staff members,its at 37 swan st
mack
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Hi Frak, Mack :)
Sorry, missed one!
::) ::)
Smithfield was also already going in 1828.
Smithfield Market Tavern, Peter Mather, Coop Street.
Best wishes
Emms :)
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Gentlemen:
At the current time we have two addresses of Astley Arms: 224 Gt Ancoats Street. and 78 Great Ancoats Street!! The possibility being there were in fact two - much the same as Yates's in Oldham Street where I undersand there were three!!
Do you have a view on the Astley address's?
I find it hard not to think the Astley name is a corruption Ashley eg, Ashley fields the site of Irk Town, Ashley Lane etc., Ashley apparently owned the land - but who was he? - or am I drifting off and in danger of falling in the Irk.
Frank
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Hello, I can throw no light on the mystery, unless there were spaces and they were built on thus altering the numbers. Don`t fall in the Irk whatever you do!!!!! it is a lot cleaner these days but still a dirty river.
Thanks for keeping me in touch with this topic.
There were three Yate`s wine Lodges, one at the Piccadilly end of Oldham St. near Woolworth`s.
One on the same side but right at the top at the New Cross end, Gt Ancoats St.
One on the other side above Cannon St.
,( the building ran from Oldham St through to Tib St.On Tib St Yate`s was a butchers, the Oldham St facade was the wine lodge. I think the street was Church St.)
Hope you get it sorted . Cheerio. Viktoria.
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Think you've cleared most of this up by now, but here's my two pennorth:
http://pubs-of-manchester.blogspot.com/2010/03/astley-arms-great-ancoats-street.html
This from Neil Richardson's The Old Pubs of Ancoats (1987):
"The Astley Arms is first recorded in 1821, tenanted by Thomas Evans. Around 1840 the house was rechristened the Pagianni Tavern by Thomas Inglesent, who is recalled in J J Slugg's "Manchester Fifty Years Ago". Pagianni came to Manchester in the 1830s and 'In after years a blind man known as Tom Inglesent, who kept the Pagianni Tavern on Great Ancoats Street, became a very clever imitator of the great violinist.'
In March 1849 the Pagianni featured in a newspaper account entitled "The Bank of Elegance": 'Shortly before one o'clock on Monday morning, a well-dressed young woman inquired of three men in Great Ancoats Street, the way to the cathedral. They directed her and then she requested them to have a glass of something to drink. To this they consented and all four went into the Pagianni. The landlord being blind it is managed by his brother-in-law. She called for four glasses of brandy and presented what she called a £10 Bank of England note, but which was a handbill belonging to some shop, drawn up after the fashion of a Bank of England note, and purporting to belong to the 'Bank of Elegance'. The man not being sufficiently able to read it, demurred to receiving it, as he thought it was a £5 note. She told him that she had a £5 note and pulled out another 'Bank of Elegance' paper... he was disinclined to take either. He showed them to three musicians who were leaving the house, and none of them could detect that they were not real notes, though all suspected them not to be so. The young woman then offered to leave them in the man's care until the following day, on condition that he gave her a sovereign as security, which she would return when she came for them and pay for the brandy. He consented to the arrangement, and gave her a sovereign, but directly afterwards, fearing that there was something wrong about the pretended notes, he spoke to a policeman (who had followed the woman and men into the house). The policeman apprehended the young woman and she then gave the man his sovereign back. The woman, whose name is Elizabeth Disley, was brought up at the Borough Court the same day... she stated in answer to the magistrates that she could read a little print but not writing. She said that the 'notes' were given her two years ago by a gentleman of her acquaintance. He have her four £10 notes and six £5 notes. She had only the two produced left. All the others (she claimed) were good ones, and she did not know that those two were not so. She was remanded to yesterday when she was discharged with a caution.'
Tom Inglesent retired in 1848 and the owners advertised for a new tenant for the "vaults, brewhouse, doing excellent business, averaging eight barrels of ale per week."
In the 1850s the inn had become the Astley Arms again and remained open until 1928, when it was a Cornbrook house. The building has had several uses since, but it still stands, opposite the end of Jersey Street, and in 1986 it was partly rebuilt."
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_N0dgpynnkm4/THF0ItWD6hI/AAAAAAAADBw/ZucFyOg1Ho8/s1600/Former+Astley+Arms.jpg)
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Thank you Granata, The copy of Neil Richardsons narrative makes fine reading. Thank you for your time and interest. The forum as you will have noticed indicates the Astley Arms had a street number change on Gt Ancoats from nos 78 to 224. I feel 78 was demolished and the business moved to 224 but I cannot be sure.
I found the following by comparing the addresses of pub/taverns in Slaters
1828/29 & Slaters 1841. It proved interesting - all on Gt. Ancoats St.
1828 1841
Bird In Hand 90 183
Cotton Tree 52 95
Griffon 249 30
Kings Arms 44 83
Navigation 102 199
Soho Foundry 109 225
White Hart 13 23
Street renumbering ??? would be the simple exp[lanation - but why? It seems a little early for the Post Office to get involved as often was, and is, the case. Frank
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Frank, renumbering is the simplest and most likely answer in my opinion.
Another key through road, Deansgate, also underwent renumbering, as we have recently discovered when researching "No.40 Deansgate". Now this is the Renaissance Hotel, more specifically the old Pizza Italia beneath it. In the 1800s No.40 was much further down near to Bridge Street:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_N0dgpynnkm4/TGr-cXp-skI/AAAAAAAAC-w/1LQuyKbKvP0/s1600/Deansgate+unknown+pub.jpg)
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Hi micky,
Recently picked up on the notes regarding Astley Arms . Yes my uncle held the licence for approx two years.My grandfather Domenico ran a patriarchal family and all the businesses were in his name. He was unable to hold the licence because he remained an Italian citiszen. Whilst he enjoyed a social drink, as a devoted family man he could not come to terms with drunkenness whilst the children ran about with shoes. He took over the pub because Antonio Valvona opened up an Italian grocery shop in competition with my grandmother and he saw this as retaliation because Valvona ran a pub. This is how the family started to manufacture wafers and cones as The International Wafer Co in Salford 1912.
The business was very successful so by 1916 the Barrel Piano(not organ or Hurdy Gurdy two different instruments) Factory closed and reverted back to furniture. Domenico contrary to much incorrect history was the only barrel piano manufacturer in Ancoats( the only other Manchester manufacturer's were Wright and Holmes Bros. and Varreto Bros who only built barrel organs).
In 1926 a green field site was purchased and a new factory was built and the members of the family moved out of Ancoats into south Manchester. Domenico with his two daughters remained at 55 Great Ancoats Street until 1934 when the shop was closed to move to Ayres Road to be nearer the business and family.
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Hi , My Gt, Gran father owned the pub with his wife certainly until after the 1st war.
Their name was Antonio and Palma Valente, one of their sons was killed in the war his name was Fredrick Valente, 10th Bn Lancashire Fusiliers ( 15th Feb 1916, 31 years old.)
My uncle Fred named after him told me many stories about the pub because he would often stay with his gran and Gran Dad. most of the customers were Italian one was Mr Valvona who made ice cream waffers ( please forgive my spelling of his family name.)
Unfortunatly all my relations have passed away so I am dependent on my memories.