RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: patval on Sunday 18 July 10 10:10 BST (UK)
-
Hello There... I have a baptism record for 1700 which I am having trouble deciphering...... Any help appreciated.....
I have made a start...
At kilmorak jan 3 1700
Rory McDonald ? Rory in ? putted his son called Hugh to be baptised. Godfathers Andrew Mc ? and ? Mc Conel ? Rory.....
I am particularly foxed by this... Rory McDonald ? Rory.... What does the first ? say, I have had suggestions of Vis, Vic and Bu, if either are correct has anyone any idea what that means?
I have this request posted on the McDonald section but someone kindly suggested I post it within the Scottish section as someone there may be more adept at deciphering old scottish records.
Many thanks in anticipation......
Patricia
-
Hi Patricia
It's a tough one....
Rory McDonald ? Rory (this exact phrase is repeated at the end after McConel and if you look at some of the others on the same page it looks like one or two have this phrase also) in ? (this is a place name, have a look at an OS Map of the area to see what it could be) putted his son called Hugh to be baptised, Godfathers Andrew Mc?roy and T? (only forename I can think starting with T is Thomas) McConel ? Rory (finishes with the same phrase as at the start).
-
If you can't find the place name from the OS map, you could ask the Kilmorack Heritage Association if anyone there recognises it. (I notice someone on their website named Scott Russell specialises in local gaelic place names. He might well know.).
Elwyn
-
Thanks Jim and Elwyn...
I didn't imagine it would be a place name but now you mention it, it appears obvious....... I will now spend a wet and windy Sunday afternoon researching 'Rory' ...Many thanks
Patricia.
-
Not too good at old handwriting but ...........
Could it be s o and stand for 'son of'? The 's' in the word 'his' looks the same as the first letter and the writer seems to keep the letter o open.
-
The first godfather looks like Andrew Mc Ean roy, Andrew son of red Ian? the "su or bu Rory" which appears after the names of the father and 2nd godfather could indicate they both had a relationship with someone else called Rory. Probably not son as it would say "Mc" and they have different 2nd names - perhaps they have the same grandfather. As someone said previously, you really need a gaelic speaker to get to the bottom of it.
-
Hi Everyone,
Thanks for all your help, I did indeed contact someone with an understanding of old Scottish language, a very kind lady named Sue Thomson at the Kilmorack Heritage Association deciphered it for me..... it reads as follows....
Rory the son of Roderick McDonald who lived at Breachachy in Kilmorack Parish. Baptized a son named Hugh, the Godfathers were Andrew John's son and Fergus McDonald the son of Roderick McDonald
she also aded that: ******** ViC is pronounced Mic that is where you get the sound McDonald from there is no sound of V in Gaelic it is pronounced M***************
Once again thanks for your interest and help
regards
Patricia.
-
Pat, there's certainly a V sound in Gaelic, mh & bh can be pronounced V. There's no letter V or J,K,Q.W,X,Y or Z Skoosh.
-
Skoosh - although I'm certainly no expert, you a right in that there is definitely a V sound as you say. The hard sound M is in certain circumstances replaced by Mh to change it to a softer V sound. Also, I always understood Vic was used to denote "daughter of" as opposed to Mac "son of".
-
GM, is that not "Nic" slainte the noo! Skoosh.
-
Ahon - you're right - senility creeps ever onwards. I'm so glad I said I wasn't an expert.
-
Gaelic sounds rather complicated, I'm afraid I'm a bit baffled... :-\ Do you think that I have got the correct interpretation of the baptism record:
Rory the son of Roderick McDonald who lived at Breachachy in Kilmorack Parish. Baptized a son named Hugh, the Godfathers were Andrew John's son and Fergus McDonald the son of Roderick McDonald
If so it means I can assume that Hughs grandfather was Roderick McDonald...... and his uncle was Fergus...
Thanks
Patricia
-
Pat, I think it says, Andrew son of Red Iain, the Fergus might also be Hugh. Skoosh.
-
I think it says:
At Kilmorak Jan: 3 1700
Rory McDonald bu Rory in Breaback
putted his son called hugh to be
baptized Godfathers Andrew Mc
Ean roy and Ferg[...] McConel bu
Rory
I don't know what bu means, but I would hazard a guess that Ferg McConel (it looks like should be Fergus, so let's just say it is!) and Rory McDonald are related somehow, in that they are both bu Rory.
I'd say bu meant something like 'also known as' or 'was' or something along those lines.
Edit: Just checked Gaelic - English and bu does mean 'was'.
-
Thank you, I can see that the word is most probably bu (was) and that makes sense, Where the 'Roderick' came from I am not sure ??? but there was a Roderick McDonald in Kilmorak in the 1650's.....
The wonders of Google..... apparently... the Gaelic language was the only language spoken throughout the Highlands of Scotland until as recently as 1850...... but how they managed without use of V or J,K,Q.W,X,Y or Z I can't imagine....
Regards
Pat
-
Pat, Gaelic can't be the only language which manages without these letters. Mc Conel means Macdonald, Roderick is a common name in Kilmorack/Urray, I won't attempt the pronounciation here.
Skoosh.
-
Why not send a PM to someone on the Gaelic only board and see if they can help? (not allowed to post on the board in English).
Skoosh - interesting about Conel - I have both Connel and McDonald in my lines but wasn't aware it was the same name. Brick wall with Connel before 1770 so might be worth searching on McDonald.
-
Thats an interesting point regarding English/Gaelic names.... Hugh and Ewan.... I have been told that they are the same name, one English the other Gaelic. Anyone have any input there?
regards Pat
-
Hi Pat
This is a great site for first name variants, particularly biased towards Scotland www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=hugh
Monica :)
-
Folks, this is an entry in Scots concerning Gaelic speakers, the Macdonald here doesn't pronounce the "d" so the effect if something like Machkonel, ch as in loch, which the clerk renders as McConel. Hugh is generally Uisdean, but in some districts was indeed Eoghann or Ewan or Evan. Skoosh.
-
Thank you Skoosh, we have family records of a Hugh b 1756 in Moulin Perthshire, yet can only find a Ewan baptised with same parents on same date 1756........ that probably solves the puzzle for us.......
How confusing it must have been for some, this switch from Gaelic to English.....
We have family letters dating dating 1818 to 1836 from a son in Port of Spain to his father in Turriff Scotland, they are written in excellent English.. The father was b 1761 in Inverness (brother to Hugh/Ewan b Moulin), he was an excise man, as was his father who we believe was born in Edinburgh to an English teacher...... perhaps this is why their written Engish is so perfect.....
Pat
-
Cheers Pat, English usage bacame the fashion after the Union so we still tend to be a bit bi-lingual, depends who we're talking to! the Gaels had a harder time, with English only, in the classroom. Don't speak Gaelic but know a few words. Macdonald, as I've said, sounds like McConel, but nothing to do with Conel in this instance, MacDougal sounds like McCool, and just to confuse things, Macdonald generally, is Domhnullach, pronounced Donalach! with no Mac at all, if you're not confused, read it again. I think Macdonald is the only name so honoured. Most Gaels of that time would be unlikely to read/write the language and confusion arises with clerks writing phonetically into Scots script. Skoosh.
-
how they managed without use of V or J,K,Q.W,X,Y or Z I can't imagine....
They just used other combinations of letters to represent those sounds when necessary. It's a very common misconception that the sounds ascribed to various letters in the English language are inevitably ascribed to the same sounds in other languages.
Consider the use of 'j' in Spanish, or 's' in Hungarian, or 'w' in German, or 'c' in Polish, for example, or initial 'r' in Brazilian Portuguese.
In Gaelic, the combinations 'bh' and 'mh' are pronounced like English 'v'. The English sound 'k' is written as 'c' in Gaelic.
The sound written as 'Cu' in Gaelic is sometimes transliterated as 'q' in English, thus the mountain Cuinneag is anglicised as Quinag.
-
We have family letters dating dating 1818 to 1836 from a son in Port of Spain to his father in Turriff Scotland, they are written in excellent English.. The father was b 1761 in Inverness (brother to Hugh/Ewan b Moulin), he was an excise man, as was his father who we believe was born in Edinburgh to an English teacher...... perhaps this is why their written Engish is so perfect.....
I doubt very much that Gaelic was spoken in the Turriff area in the 1800s, other than by people who moved east and south from the Highlands.
An exciseman was a civil servant and would have to have some education, and I doubt that a monoglot Gaelic speaker would have been employable in eastern Scotland. The son almost certainly attended a school where the teaching was in English, so even if his father was a native Gaelic speaker the son would have been educated in English.
-
Inverness, at that time was largely English speaking, and very good English too by all accounts, somewhat in contrast with to the good folks of Turriff! Skoosh.
-
Hi everyone, you were all so helpful, and knowledgeable, your English/Gaelic advice has helped me along…. I have another queerie…. If you don’t mind that is…
I am searching for a John Warden born 1729.. We are sure of the date because he was an excise man (as were his three sons and a grandson) we have Johns excise salary records which give age at death as 62 in 1791… and I imagine this to be accurate…. He was moved around with his job starting 1750 in Dundee, then on to Moulin, Dunkeld and Inverness….. Trying to find his parents we can find only two births for a John Warden in 1729 one born in St Cuthberts Edinburgh to an English teacher called John Warden… However, as a minus… John the English teacher was son to Adam Warden teacher in Alyth..(Recorded on OPR) and we have no other Adams in the family. … Then there was a John Warden born 1729 in Barony to a John Warden & Janet Petticrew. … This John was in General Whilemans Regiment, Janet was from Dounward Riddarie……………………… Does anyone have military knowledge of Glasgow at that time………. Most sites I find refer to the mid 1800’s and later.
I am probably asking impossible questions :-\ but the birth of John is becoming all consuming.…. Many thanks….
I have attached a copy of the relevant section of the OPR if it helps
-
Pat, this was a soldier in Gen' Whiteman's Regiment, was he an Englishman. There was no Barracks in Glasgow at that time, soldiers were billeted with the population. Riddrie I can see from my window, it was certainly a country area in the Barony Parish, Glasgow, I don't understand what the Downward part means. Riddrie House, now a cemetery, is at the top of a hill, maybe at the lower part. Skoosh.
-
Hi Skoosh, We always assumed they were a Scottish family but not impossible for him to be English I suppose, I hope not as the English records are not nearly as informative as the Scottish ones...... I tried Googling Riddrie but did not find out a great deal...... John had three sons who became excise men, two of his grandsons qualified and became naval surgeons, .... 'Downward' probably meant the bottom end of Riddrie if that makes sense. Thank you for the information, Interesting that there were no Barracks in Glasgow at that time, I think my next step is to find out which regiment General Whiteman/Whileman belonged to...
Many thanks Patricia ;)
-
'Downward' probably meant the bottom end of Riddrie if that makes sense.
Could be.
Or it could be from Gaelic 'dun' meaning a fort plus English 'ward' meaning an enclosure. Or maybe just plain English, meaning the lower enclosure.
-
Forfarian, no place remotely like Downward here, I think Pat is right. Many of the placenames hereaboots are actually of Welsh origin, (Strathclyde) the Gaelic ones came later. The Infantry Barracks were constructed on the Gallowgate in 1795. Skoosh.
-
Welsh 'din' is pretty much the same as Gaelic 'dun', and isn't the name Glasgow itself said to be Gaelic in origin?
-
So they say, but could be Welsh again, plenty of Car names here, Caer! Skoosh.
-
... Then there was a John Warden born 1729 in Barony to a John Warden & Janet Petticrew. … This John was in General Whilemans Regiment, Janet was from Dounward Riddarie…………
I found a map that had Riddrie on it:
https://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/maps/sheet/new_pop/178_072
Unfortunately, I couldn't provide you with a zoomed-in portion. Zoom into the giant word "Glasgow" then pan right and up a bit, look for Hogganfield Loch. Riddrie is on the Monkland Canal, just down a bit and left of the Loch. It was in Barony Parish.