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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Boongie Pam on Sunday 23 May 04 17:17 BST (UK)
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Y'can tell I don't like the sun, lurking here all day!! ;D
I thought I'd take advantage of the vast wisdom and knowledge that is on this forum. My Grandad was in the RAF during the war and I believe he was a tail gunner. Or at least this was one of the very few things he said about the war. He didn't like to talk about it at all and now sadly I now longer have the opportunity to ask him questions.
I do however have a photo. Can anyone tell me what aeroplane my Grandad (on the right) and his pal are sitting on? Is there enough visible?
Thanks in advance,
Pam
;D
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Hi Pam,
Firstly congratulations - I've shown my husband the photo, and he's finally interested in this site! ;D
He says that it is very difficult to tell from the photo but thinks that it is a Vickers-Armstrong Wellington, but the Short Stirling has a very similar tail and is another possibility.
Do you have any idea where your Grandad was based as this will help to identify the plane.
Regards,
Sasha.
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The story as far as the snippets of info I have is that he left home in Annan after a ruck with his dad and joined up at the age of 18 in 1939, he lied about his age.
Now, I know he was in Dyce (Aberdeen) for training. I also know he was also stationed in Leeds for a bit but this may have been later in the war as he used to walk to Liverpool to see my Nana who worked on the barrage (sp?) ballons in the WAFs in Liverpool.
The only other info I have is that he spent time in North Africa. There may of been a spell in Loughborough, I know my Nana was there when she joined up (also at 18 - what a family of fibbers!) and we think that is where they met.
Don't know if that helps understand which plane it could be though?
Thanks,
Pam
;D
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Hi Pam,
It doesn't really help as there were that many bases around the Leeds and Loughborough area.
The partial code on the plane may help identify it - you've got my husband interested now and he says he'll have a look on the internet later (when I've got off the computer) and see if he can find anything out for you.
Sasha.
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Hi Pam,
After much searching of the internet I'm afraid that we haven't really come up with anything.
The 'HZ' shown on the plane is the partial aircraft identification number - we can't find anything relating to this.
Also, Wellington's were usually painted black, and yours is lighter (grey?). We've found a similar picture to compare with yours which should be attached.
The nearest base to Loughborough using Wellingtons was Castle Donnington, but there were others in the area.
One website to try is http://www.stable.demon.co.uk/sqncodes/rafcode.htm. The owner of this site has information on squadron codes and asks that if it doesn't provide the information you need (which it doesn't seem to) contact him for help.
I'd be interested to hear if you find out anything more.
Regards.
Sasha.
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Hi Pam
Being born and bred in Loughborough, I know of at least 3 Airfields that were operational in WW2. I observed planes taking off from all 3
Castle Donington - Now the East Midland Airport (7 miles from Loughborough)
Wymeswold - Military Airbase overlooking Loughborough (still functional as emergency landing)
Loughborough - Derby Road Airfield - now an Industrial Estate.
Chris in 1066Land
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Hi Pam
Just found this site - excellent information - lots of pictures of airfields including Wymeswold - plus confirms Wymeswold was a bomber Squadron
RAF Wymeswold Airfield
... Wymeswold. site map. airfield listing. usaaf listing ... Peter J Broom) Wymeswold airfield. Airfield Today: Agriculture, industry ...
www.controltowers.co.uk
Chris in 1066Land
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Thanks all! It's the type of information that is just nice to have - I'll definitely follow this up.
Thanks,
Pam
PS I can't be ;D Pam tonight, I'm :'( Pam with a bit of >:( Pam. I was due to go on holiday on Wednesday but after tearing my house apart we have confirmation the passport is lost.
;D ;D ;D ;DPam - passport found!!! ANy one need an MI found in Aix en Provence?
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Of the two types listed as possibilities I'd come down on the type being a Wellington. For one thing, part of the fuselage seems to be fabric covered - I don't think that the Stirling was. And secondly, the Stirling was a much larger aircraft than the Wellington; the one in your photo seems to be fairly close to the ground.
If your grandfather served in the Middle East that would also point to it being a Wellington since, to the best of my knowledge Stirlings didn't get out there.
Don't be misled by the colour being a bit light - this could be possibly be accounted for by the type of film used. These sometimes gave a false rendition of some types of camouflage paint.
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Hi All,
As an update and thanks for all your help I had the following reply from the website that Sasha suggested...
The aircraft is certainly a Wellington, in fact a
Wellington X, but the two letters HZ are not the squadron code but the
partial serial number for the aircraft. It could be HZ2--....
...Of the
two men in the picture, there is no indication that they are aircrew or
ground crew. Lastly, many of the Wellington Xs with serials HZ200+ were
flown by Canadian and Australian Squadrons.
I'm still trying to dig further into this, I'm beginning to think this was taken maybe post war when he worked for Dehavillands.
Cheers,
Pam
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Pam,
Thanks for taking the time to update us on this fascinating story. It is always nice to be able to let people know if they have managed to help with their suggestions. It seems that in this case they have helped. ;D
Even if the answer was not what you had expected. :-\
Kazza.
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Hi Pam,
Glad the webiste I suggested was some use - thanks for the update.
Sasha.
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The aircraft looks to me to be either a Wellington (twin-engined) as the surface appears to be over the geodetic construction used on that aircraft. The serial number beginning HZ also points to the Wellington.
The other possibilitiy is that it might be a Stirling (four-engined). Unlikely to be other candidates as the RAF's other bombers were twin-tailed - Lancaster and Halifax.
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Having taken a second look, I doubt if it can be a Stirling as that stood much higher off the ground than the one shown in the photo.
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Hi Pam,
Found these which might be interesting:
http://www.rcaf.com/6group/June43/june21~2243.html
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~8sqnwad/2may44-6.html
The second one shows that MarkXIII Wellington's were also designated HZ.
I have a WW2 aircraft book with all the Wellington variants somewhere in the loft. I'll try and dig it out.
Geoff.
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This is all excellent - thank you. ;D
There is a bigger appetite in the family to dig out more information because we sadly attended my grandfather's (John "Jock" Fallon - on the right of the pic) funeral 3 weeks ago. My original mail was posted when he was alive :)
I now know (from the "leaving party" we don't do wakes) that he was also stationed down south near Southampton. He also joined up again after he was demobbed because of the high unemployment after the war. This makes dating the picture even more difficult.
Thanks for all the help with this.
Cheers,
Pam
;D
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HZ is the recognition code for 44 group communications flight, based at staverton from 16-8-1944 till 29-7 1946,where they were disbanded,you are all correct,its a wellington,mack
ps,44 group didnt fly wellingtons they had ansons
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Manmack!
I've just dug this old post out to show someone and I never noticed you'd replied and solved the mystery! No notification :(
I am so sorry at the near 2 year delay in saying thank you!
All the best,
Pam
:)
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I'm still trying to dig further into this, I'm beginning to think this was taken maybe post war when he worked for Dehavillands.
Cheers,
Pam
Pleased to see mystery has been solved my first thought was that neither of the two in the photo had Brevets' to indicate they were aircrew, if my memory serves me it was some way through WWII before non flying types IE gunners, bombaimers etc were entitled to wear the half wing.
If he had been issued it later then he would still have been entitled to wear it if he rejoined after the war, the lack of medal ribbons would also indicate it was early in his training and not a post war photo.
In conclusion my main reason in bringing this up is that my late father also worked for de Havillands all though as a civilian during the war with a short spell in Dads Army on airfield defence, I would be interested to know were he was working as they may well have known each other DHs' was a very close knit 'family'
Regards
Alan
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Hi Alan,
I'm not sure this mystery is completely solved now :)
My bf is an aeroplane enthusiast and is having a deep think about this picture.
As far as the picture goes...
Yes it is a Wellington but in strange colours, there seems to be a hint of camouflage could it of been painted over? Post war used for alternative purpose maybe? BUT the gun turret is still in place.
There is a second picture also of 3 Wellingtons (nose end) the front one with a leggy redhead flashing her gams :) The front gun perspex is removed though. (I'll get a scan of this somehow). There is also a picture in the same pack of a captured Messerschmitt.
Bf thinks the colours are the same or similar as the Mosquito? Where some Wellingtons used as training vehicles instead of Mosquitos?
The HZ serial number is the plane serial as the recognition code is much bigger writing further up the plane.
I'm going to speak to my mum about the DH connection as it might be a red herring.
All still confused here!
Pam
:)
PS: Found some detail on HZ Wellingtons...
http://www.lostbombers.co.uk/bomber.php?id=1600
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Yes, the HZ is the start of the serial number rather than the unit code. Sounds like the Wellingtons without the front turret are the Wellington T.10, a modified trainer version.
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Here are some links sent to me by a friend who I regard as an expert in aircraft, certainly the best down under, like me ex RAF but unlike me was in the aircraft trade and still is
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/75/a5547675.shtml
http://home.concepts.nl/~avalphen/bel/hz.438.htm
http://www.ody.ca/~bwalker/RAF_owned_HK100.html
He thought it could have been a "Warwick" but the HZ serial number has convinced him it is a Wellington
Alan
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Hi,
The aircraft is a Wellington.
Only Wellingtons were assigned in the HZ*** serial range.
The following is from a reverse serial/aircraft type database I created a few years ago.
Start End Model Manufacturer
HZ102 HZ981 Wellington Vickers
No serials in the range HZ100-101 and HZ982-999 were assigned to other aircraft.
Regards
Ross
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Tried to add the full lookup list but it exceeds the post limit.
http://www.rafcommands.com/dcforum/DCForumID7/332.html#1
For anyone who needs an RAF aircraft for a partial serial.
Regards
Ross
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Hello Pam and hello Ross,
have just picked up on this thread.
The Wellington looks a little battered. Wonder if it is doped silver or finished in a coastal white camouflage.
The two gents look quite informal. VE Day + 1 perhaps.
I've had a look at a book of serial numbers (Jim Halley's Air Britain book, of course, Ross).
Taking the serial as HZ2....
the aircraft is one of a batch of 513 Wellingtons manufactured by Vickers at Blackpool between December 1942 and august 1943.
There were 54 airframes in the HZ200~299 range, various Marks.
Looking through, and arbitrarily ignoring those that did not survive to war's end (assuming the photo is of that period) there are a few that served with 6 and 7 Operational Training Units (OTU) and where disposed of to a company called Air Service Training/Airwork Ltd.
Those OTUs where coastal units and their aircraft would usually be painted in a white scheme.
AST/Airwork was an organization involved in training and maintenance contracts from a number of bases in the UK, so I'm afraid the serial number does not seem to be the key to placing the photo.
Pam, you say there is another photo and also one of a captured Messerschmitt - any chance of posting them, please?
Regards
Dave