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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: rootbeer on Saturday 17 July 10 23:00 BST (UK)
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hi im looking for info on Christopher Smith, he was married to Mary Shaw and then Patince Lovell, i know his children but would like to know of
witch smiths he was? it was said he was cousin of Bartholomew Smith . he was known as one arm Christopher Smith. hope someone can help all
the best :).
all the census info i have below fingers X.
DETAILS OF HOUSE HOLD ALL B ENGLAND
1901 in a Travelling Caravan (The Inches), Aberdeen
Christopher Smith 69 hd Hawker
Patience Smith 66 wife
John Smith 26 son
Thomas Smith 18 grandson
James Smith 15 grandson
1871 Upholland, Hall Green, Lancashire
(Day Moor ?Band of Gipsies
Christopher Smith 40
Mary Smith 30
Christopher Smith 14
Thomas Smith 12
Clairess Smith 10
Charlot Smith 8
Headgan Smith 6
Henry Smith 4...... Patience dad
Cathrine Smith 3
Thomas Toogood 60
Mary "" wife 50
census 1881 Earsdon Tynemouth Northumberland * Address Sheilds Road 1
lrg van & Cart
Christropher Smith 46 b West Ardsley Yorkshire Licensed Hawker
Mary 43 b Worcestershire
Chrisatropher 22 b Burslem Staffordshire
Tom 22 b Burslem Staffordshire
Cornelius 21 b Tunstal Staffordshire
Charlotte 18 b Stoke Staffordshire
Edingale 17 b Longton Staffordshire
Henry 12 b Eagle lincoln
James 10 b Blackpool lancashsire
John 8 b Barrow in Furness Lancashire
Isabella 4 b Barrow in furness Lancashirer
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hi there,
i have them lsited as the "cambridgeshire smiths"
but i have siblings : amy, eizeikle, christopher, corneilius, woodlock & bartholemew all children of james smith & elizabeth odell.
these are not my own findings just info that some other kind person passed onto me so am not sure of the exact details but i hope ti gives a bit of a clus for you to search with :)
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hello again rootbeer,
found this amazing site,
romresearch.wetpaint.com/
it mentions a 1 armed christopher smith :) kushti bok
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Hi aa1 Web thank you very much :D this should be a massive help and i never new who any of one arm Chrissys siblings was'
i have been on the Romanyreserch website i got some very good help'
do you know is these Smith were conected to Rodny Smith? on Romanyreserch it said Christopher was conected with the Rodney Smith but through Christophers wife Mary Shaw but i wonder if Chrissy and Rodney Smith might have been from the same stock,
but thanks again for that info. all the best Lee
hi there,
i have them lsited as the "cambridgeshire smiths"
but i have siblings : amy, eizeikle, christopher, corneilius, woodlock & bartholemew all children of james smith & elizabeth odell.
these are not my own findings just info that some other kind person passed onto me so am not sure of the exact details but i hope ti gives a bit of a clus for you to search with :)
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So if im right(wich would be a first) Rodney father was Christophers brother Cornelius? ???
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yep, you are right :) rodney as in the evangelist .
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Hi its me again i have been serching for info since i learned of Christophers family but i have got a couple of qestion marks as bellow..
this passage bellow from GLS Journals
Old ' one-armed ' Chris, who was buried at Wigton in 1912 with a sod of turf on his breast, travelled chiefly in Westmorland, ... A descendant of Bartholomew, uncle of the preacher Rodney Smith and himself a convert and evangelist claimed that Chris was a cousin of Bartholomew , ...
i have read on here Christopher uncle of Rodney was wed to Rhoda Smith?
but my Christopher was wed to Mary Shaw and Patience Lovell?
and i have read on another bord..
Christopher Smith s/o Bathwell and Charlotte Smith, 23 Feb 1834, Brothertoft, Lincs.
could Bathwell be Bartholomew?
am i on the wrong track or is my Christopher son of Bartholomew
witch would make him Rodneys cousin??
hope you can help:0)
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Hi its me again i have been serching for info since i learned of Christophers family but i have got a couple of qestion marks as bellow..
this passage bellow from GLS Journals
Old ' one-armed ' Chris, who was buried at Wigton in 1912 with a sod of turf on his breast, travelled chiefly in Westmorland, ... A descendant of Bartholomew, uncle of the preacher Rodney Smith and himself a convert and evangelist claimed that Chris was a cousin of Bartholomew , ...
Christopher who married Rhoda Smith (my gt gt grandmother) was brother to cornelius and Bartholomew and uncle to Rodney the Evangalist
i have read on here Christopher uncle of Rodney was wed to Rhoda Smith?
but my Christopher was wed to Mary Shaw and Patience Lovell?
and i have read on another bord..
Christopher Smith s/o Bathwell and Charlotte Smith, 23 Feb 1834, Brothertoft, Lincs.
could Bathwell be Bartholomew?
am i on the wrong track or is my Christopher son of Bartholomew
witch would make him Rodneys cousin??
hope you can help:0)
Christopher who married Rhoda (my gt gt grandmother, Christopher was her 3rd husband) he was brother to Cornelius and Bartholomew and uncle to Rodney
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Hi its me again i have been serching for info since i learned of Christophers family but i have got a couple of qestion marks as bellow..
this passage bellow from GLS Journals
Old ' one-armed ' Chris, who was buried at Wigton in 1912 with a sod of turf on his breast, travelled chiefly in Westmorland, ... A descendant of Bartholomew, uncle of the preacher Rodney Smith and himself a convert and evangelist claimed that Chris was a cousin of Bartholomew , ...
i have read on here Christopher uncle of Rodney was wed to Rhoda Smith?
but my Christopher was wed to Mary Shaw and Patience Lovell?
Just to put in my 2 cents worth on this subject..... from how I read the above passage from the GLS Journal is that an descendant (unknown) of Bartholomew claimed that Christopher and Bartholomew were cousins. This may be true in some way but it's useful to bear in mind that back then they probably wouldn't have quantified exactly how people were cousins as we do today. Today we call someone a cousin if they are children of our aunts & uncles and we use 2nd/3rd cousins (plus numerical removals) to explain their exact connection. Somehow I get the feeling that in other eras all offspring of ancestors would have been called cousins if they were in the same generation. Also, as I haven't read the whole passage, can anyone confirm that the Bartholomew Smith referred to in it, is in fact the one that everyone seems to assume it means - that of the brother to Rodney Smith's father? Maybe there existed another Bartholomew Smith and it was this man's funeral that was witnessed and quoted on in the GLS passage shown on Romresearch...?
Rodney Smith's father, Cornelius, certainly did have a brother called Christopher (and another called Bartholomew) but Christopher's wives were Elizabeth Albone and Rhoda Smith. I personally have no record of there being two other wives, nor of him having a son called Christopher as shown in the census reports copied at the beginning of this thread.
With the tendency there was to use the same names, it's not improbably that another line of Smiths came down alongside that of James Smith (father to Christopher, Cornelius, Bartholomew, etc, and g/father to Rodney Smith) that had the same names in them and it would seem logical that this could be the line that One-armed Christopher belonged to.
and i have read on another bord..
Christopher Smith s/o Bathwell and Charlotte Smith, 23 Feb 1834, Brothertoft, Lincs.
could Bathwell be Bartholomew?
am i on the wrong track or is my Christopher son of Bartholomew
witch would make him Rodneys cousin??
hope you can help:0)
If your Christopher was born circa 1830 (as per the below census records) and Rodney Smith's uncle Bartholomew (the one we know about, at least - the brother of his father) was born circa 1836, then I would say the answer to that is no. Even given that the census records may be out a year or two and the knowledge that baptisms sometimes took place a while after the birth, I don't think we can assume that Bartholomew fathered a child as a newborn himself. I know gypsies are meant to be virile but that's taking it too far. ;)
It could be that this 'Bathwell' is a lateral descendant so tracing his line back might find a connection to the other Christopher Smith.
Regards
ScallyW
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Hi and thank you for the replies' i was hoping my Christopher was the brother of Bartholomew and Cornilius if only to solve my puzzle but i agree im still got a lot to find out??
the source of the GLS info was as follows..
James Allison, whose maternal grandfather was closely akin to the deceased He instanced its observance on the death of Bartholomew Smith, a cousin of Christopher's; and recalled how, one Isabella Smith, aunt to Shandres, and widow of Major Lovell's son, George, at Whiteinch in Scotland in,3 some of his mother's people wished to place a sod on her breast, but were forbidden to do so by her son, William.
George Lovell and Isabella Smith were the parents of Christopher's 2nd wife Patience Lovell.
the Allison's are still considered cousins through James today but that shows just how far apart cousins can still be called cousin and this does not help with Christopher and Bartholomew.
i have 3 birth dates for Christopher 1831..32..and 35 on difrent Census's
i have many hunches and but nothing as yet near rock solid any help would be fantastic,
i appreciate all your help, all the very best Lee
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and i have read on another bord..
Christopher Smith s/o Bathwell and Charlotte Smith, 23 Feb 1834, Brothertoft, Lincs.
could Bathwell be Bartholomew?
am i on the wrong track or is my Christopher son of Bartholomew
witch would make him Rodneys cousin??
hope you can help:0)
Hi Lee, Bathwell Smith appears to be a completely seperate person - his name was Bathwell, and possibly used the alias Matthew, and the link to the name Bartholomew seems to come only from an 1861 census return. where his name may have been misheard by the enumerator.
He was baptised as Bathwell at Cold Higham Northamptonshire, s/o Thomas & Nancy in 1795- and you can check that out yourself on the IGI (familysearch.org)
His son Christopher, I dont have any further details on. His daughter Sarah married Levi Smith s/o James in 1861 at Nettleham, Lincs.
IF Bathwell also used the name Matthew (and personally I believe he did) his other children were Charlotte married Woodfine Smith s/o Zachariah at Blidworth in1853, and Harriette (or Trainette) married Abraham Gray and their family settled in North Kyme Lincs, and their gravestones can be found there.
Other issue include Constance b.cir 1836 Caythorpe, and Mary Ann b.cir 1848 married John Coy and Tom Carter.
also believed to belong to this family is Henry Smith b.cir 1842 who had a liason with Ellen (alias Dinah) Gray d/o my Christopher Gray.
Ann x
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Hi Ann how you doing.
i think this Bathwell is my best candidate so far' the birth dates match and whilst i was in that Liverpool Uni Archive i was flicking through some Smith info and found many references to One armed Chris mostly Chris giving info on other Smiths who were a lot of Rodneys family nick named the igg pig Smiths for eating ham?
as i flicked through the pages a tree came out with Bathwell and Woodlfine and Christopher was in the tree as son of Bathwell, as luck had it it was time to leave so i couldn't read into it any further,
so although just now im leaning towards this Bathwell i still need to dig deeper before i jump to any conclusions at all,
the truth is out there lol..take care
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Im good babe :)
You need to get another lookie at that tree you found!
All I know about Bathwells suposed parentage is he was baptised at Cold Higham. Northants s/o Thomas and Nancy.
They also had a Brownetta baptised there in 1794, and apart from that the trail goes cold. So Im wondering now if Thomas and Nancy were not aliases?
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Just a short post im off to my bed i have it from a more than reliable sorce it is Bathwell i was looking for :D
thanks again for all your help :)
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Hi Ann. iv been looking through some posts about Bathwell on another forum and seen you wrote this bellow' can you tell me if this still stands was your findings?
cheers :)
Zachariah Smith who had Matthew and Woodfine
Woodfine Smith who married Sarah Boswell in 1811 at Hillmorton
Edward Smith who married Elizabeth and had Edward and Frederick amongst others.
And Bathwell aka Matthew Smith, who had Constance Charlotte Christopher Harriett Sarah Henry and Mary Ann.
And if that is accurate, they are children of Thomas & Nancy according to Bathwells baptism, and he did indeed have a sister Brownetta/Brownette:
Theodosia Smith c.23.08.1816 d/o Wisdom & Brownette, Gypsies, at Sth Luffenham, Rutland
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Hi Ann. iv been looking through some posts about Bathwell on another forum and seen you wrote this bellow' can you tell me if this still stands was your findings?
cheers :)
Zachariah Smith who had Matthew and Woodfine
Woodfine Smith who married Sarah Boswell in 1811 at Hillmorton
Edward Smith who married Elizabeth and had Edward and Frederick amongst others.
And Bathwell aka Matthew Smith, who had Constance Charlotte Christopher Harriett Sarah Henry and Mary Ann.
And if that is accurate, they are children of Thomas & Nancy according to Bathwells baptism, and he did indeed have a sister Brownetta/Brownette:
Theodosia Smith c.23.08.1816 d/o Wisdom & Brownette, Gypsies, at Sth Luffenham, Rutland
Youd have to read the thread involved in entirety as some data was provided by other people but that does seem to be the theory thus far, yes.
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Hi An65
I keep coming across your posts. you have obviously done lots of research and in an old thread you mentioned a webpage you had set up? Is it possible I can view this? I am interested in the same lines that you obviously know so much about. Mainly the Smith/Clayton and Heron/Gray links. I am a descendent of Trezi Ann Smith/ William Clayton (maternal side) and Eliza Heron/Osery Gray (paternal). Im looking to get back as far as possible on both sides. Many thanks.
Teresa
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Sorry my website was on Geocities and they shut down some time ago. I dont have a website anymore :(
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Hi Teresa,
Have you seen the RTFHS booklet The Family Tree of Woodfine Smith by Josephine Tombs. It has some useful information about Trezy Ann and her parents and siblings and shows how the Claytons, Smiths etc interlink through marriage up to 1900.
Like all pieces of other peoples research it is worth checking against the census etc. to confirm the people you are looking for.
Cheryl
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Hi All
Wonder if these forum posts are still "live", I'll raise them again and see who's out there :) I'm interested in "One Armed" Christopher Smith, son of Barthwell and Charlotte Smith. Christopher would be my 3rd great grand uncle (according to my family tree program :)) I've done some work on Christopher and published it via http://www.sanway-brownlock.com/christopher-smith-1834 along with pages for Barthwell Smith and Charlotte Smith/Gray/Elliott. My main reason for posting is I'm still a little confused by some of the information relating to Christopher some say he was previously married to a Mary Shaw, others say he was related to "Gypsy" Rodney the evangelist. I've just purchased a copy of the book "The Family Tree of Major and Susanna Lovell" and this only shows a marriage/union to Patience Lovell. Does anyone have any definitive proof of a marriage to Mary Shaw or any information relating to Mary would be a great help or a connection to Rodney. Any help or information would be gratefully received.
Thanks
BourneGooner
BourneGooner