RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: MuttleyS on Sunday 11 July 10 12:01 BST (UK)
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I'm not sure if this has come up before but I am surprised if it hasn't.
If buying online, you give the index number for a certificate and when it arrives it turns out that you ordered the one for the wrong person, why can't you get a full refund?
Because what you are buying is unseen then surely it should be covered by the Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000.
The point of these regulations is to protect the consumer when they buy goods or services online without face-to-face contact with the seller and without the opportunity to inspect the goods before purchase.
Even though you gave the reference details in good faith, with common surnames it is possible that there or two or three possible index references for the person you are looking for, and without seeing the details on the certificate it is impossible to know which is the right one.
You shouldn't have to order two or three certificates just to get the one you want.
There is nothing about this in the GRO terms and conditions, and reading the details of the Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000 it doesn't seem that the GRO are exempt in any way.
Has this ever been tested and does anybody have any thoughts about this?
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Following the withdrawal of the reference checking facility I have received confirmation from GRO that if a customer applies for a certificate from GRO and does not have a GRO reference, they are able to supply information to help identify the record. GRO will search in the year they quote together, if necessary, with a year either side. If GRO cannot find the record on this basis, they will refund the fee in full.
http://www.ffhs.org.uk/news/news100412.php
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,459019.msg3199975.html#msg3199975
Stan
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If you have ordered using the reference number and supplied no other information why should you expect a refund? You will presumably have been sent exactly what you ordered.
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Yes stanmapstone I understand that, but I was thinking about the situation where, say for a death, you know someone died within a period of say two or three years (but you don't know the exact year), and you know the location where they died.
When you look up the index, particularly with common names, there may be two or three possibilities.
Without seeing the occupation and/or address (or parents names on other certificates) you can't know which is the right one. AND neither can the GRO however much searching they do. They would have to have more information than is given on their application form surely?
I have to admit that I am very new to all this family history research so I may be missing something.
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behindthefrogs - I would expect a refund if, like buying anything else unseen on the internet it turned out to be not what I wanted - even though I ordered what I ordered in good faith.
If I bought some clothes and they turned out to be not exactly the right colour or the wrong size or I just didn't like them when I saw them in the flesh. They were exactly what I ordered but I would still expect - and would get by law - a refund.
I don't see ordering an unseen document from the GRO as any different.
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If you know the location where the death was registered, then you would be better ordering the certificate from the local registrars, who are generally more helpful than the GRO :)
Stan
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Paragraph 2.12 of the Trading Standards Information Pack for Businesses would appear to give the GRO a get out clause from the DSR's
http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft698.pdf
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A death must be registered in the district in which it took place.
Stan
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If you know the location where the death was registered, then you would be better ordering the certificate from the local registrars, who are generally more helpful than the GRO :)
Stan
That's true but I guess time pressures mean that they may not be more helpful.
I was really thinking about the situation of having ordered the certificate in good faith and only after receiveing it, finding out it is the wrong one. Too late then to go to the local office.
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Paragraph 2.12 of the Trading Standards Information Pack for Businesses would appear to give the GRO a get out clause from the DSR's
http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft698.pdf
So is that saying that if the GRO argue that they are fullfilling a 'statutory function' then they would be exempt?
What is the definition of a 'statutory function' in this context?
The information they supply is public information and they are only able to charge for it because the information is not available for personal research anywhere else.
I happen to think these records should be available to view personally at somewhere like the records office in Kew, as are most other public records.
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If you have ordered using the reference number and supplied no other information why should you expect a refund? You will presumably have been sent exactly what you ordered.
Not necessarily. I ordered a death certificate using a reference number, date and name, and when the certificate arrived, the name was different (the surname was right, but the christian name was wrong). The reference number was correct. I complained to the GRO, and they credited me with a full refund - I didn't even have to send the certificate back.
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I'm not sure if this has come up before but I am surprised if it hasn't.
If buying online, you give the index number for a certificate and when it arrives it turns out that you ordered the one for the wrong person, why can't you get a full refund?
:) I love that. If you think about it if that rule was followed you would never have to pay for another certificate again as when they arrived (and after you had photocopied them) you could return them for whatever spurious reason you wanted saying they were the wrong ones and get a refund.
What you are actually buying is the certificate for the reference name and number you quoted. If its the wrong one its not the GRO's fault as they have provided what you quoted.
Personally I have always found the GRO helpful. For example I wanted the death certificate of a Thomas Thirlwell but there were two of the same name in the same registration district and same quarter. I phoned the GRO told them what i wanted but there were two references. Gave them a few more details and they looked out the right one and sent it to me
So I guess if you have several possibles then either phone the GRO or the local registration office and more often than not they will be helpful
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I'm not sure if this has come up before but I am surprised if it hasn't.
If buying online, you give the index number for a certificate and when it arrives it turns out that you ordered the one for the wrong person, why can't you get a full refund?
:) I love that. If you think about it if that rule was followed you would never have to pay for another certificate again as when they arrived (and after you had photocopied them) you could return them for whatever spurious reason you wanted saying they were the wrong ones and get a refund.
What you are actually buying is the certificate for the reference name and number you quoted. If its the wrong one its not the GRO's fault as they have provided what you quoted.
Personally I have always found the GRO helpful. For example I wanted the death certificate of a Thomas Thirlwell but there were two of the same name in the same registration district and same quarter. I phoned the GRO told them what i wanted but there were two references. Gave them a few more details and they looked out the right one and sent it to me
So I guess if you have several possibles then either phone the GRO or the local registration office and more often than not they will be helpful
I agree that it leaves the door open for unscrupulous users but, if you think about it, that is exactly the same situation with CDs and DVDs. BUT (although some people no doubt abuse the system) most people are fair in the way they buy CDs and only return them if they have really made a mistake. I believe CDs and DVDs are covered by the DSR.
True it is not the GRO's fault but neither is it the consumers'. As with any other purchase online it is never the suppliers fault, BUT they are still required to give a full refund by law under the DSR. So why should the GRO be any different?
Your advice about contacting the GRO is good advice but I am sure there are situations where you would not be able to give them sufficient information to find the right one. I'm thinking of people with the name Smith, Brown, Jones, Williams etc.
These are the situations I am talking about. The only real way is to be able to do the research yourself, being able to see the information on the certificate.
I cannot think of any other online purchases that consumers make where the product is completely unseen.
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What you are actually buying is the certificate for the reference name and number you quoted. If its the wrong one its not the GRO's fault as they have provided what you quoted.
I personally believe that the GRO would be able to establish they are acting within their statutory capacity in providing the certificates and therefore exempt from the Distance Selling Regulations. A case would have to be made arguing that the GRO in providing certificates for purposes other than that for which they were originally intended were now acting in a "Commercial Capacity" to remove this exemption.
However if the GRO were not exempt it does not a matter if they have provided exactly what you ordered, the DSR's give the consumer a 7 day "cooling off" period during which time they can reject the goods/services provided without providing any reason.
As has been pointed out the unscrupulous could use this as a means of never paying for a certificate again but it could have other implications for the GRO and the consumers (us) amongst which could be a massive price increase to cover the costs involved or even in a worst case scenario the GRO withdraws all facilities for Distance selling ..
It is an interesting point which Trading Standards should be able to clarify.
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Stan
You stated in one of your replies that the death must be registered in the area/district it occurrred in.
Is this a more recent (post 1950's) law.
My g/grandfather died in Reigate, Surrey, but his daughter (my gran) registered his birth in Westminster (this was in the 1940's).
Also my mum died in Southwark, but I had to go to Lambeth to register her death, I found this very odd. This was in the mid 1990's
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Deaths have always had to be registered where In the district where they occurred although I do not know if you could register a death by declaration like you can with a birth. (My Father was registered by declaration) deaths had to be registered within 8 days of there occurrence now reduced to 5 days.
I have to agree with Behindthefrongs
The GRO are providing what you have ordered so you shouldn’t be entitled to a refund if what you ordered is not what you thought it would be. I suspect they have a get out clause on their T & C’s
The local register office cannot tell you what information is held on a certificate however they can answer yes or no questions.
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Playing Devil's Advocate here
The GRO are providing what you have ordered so you shouldn’t be entitled to a refund if what you ordered is not what you thought it would be. I suspect they have a get out clause on their T & C’s
Legally if they are NOT exempt from the DSR's it doesn't matter if they have provided exactly what you ordered as the 7 day cooling off period would apply. Again, putting something in their T&C's would not exempt them from this particular piece of legislation but would in fact probably put them in more trouble as you cannot choose to exempt yourself by whatever terms you make up. (A number of firms have fallen foul of this by trying to charge a "restocking" fee but have found themselves on the wrong end of a Trading Standards Court Case)
It all boils down to the meaning of "Statutory Function" and whether in providing certificates to persons other than those named on those certificates the GRO is acting within its Statutory remit.
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Surely we have all ordered certificates hoping that the one we have ordered is the "right" one. Only to find when it turns up it was the other one we should have ordered. Surely you have ordered a specific certificate, given the right name & reference number, surely under the legaliities of "sale of goods" you have received exactly what you ordered. Not the GRO's fault that it is not the certificate you were hoping it would be, nor is it your fault. And even when the GRO still did the reference checking you could still get the wrong certificate if you ordered a certificate for John Smith, son of Fred Smith & Joan Jones as there could easily still be more than one (I know that this too happened to me, so who was to blame there?)
I know I have around 6 or 7 which are "wronguns". But never thought to worry, you makes your choice, pays your fee and hopes for the best.
If people were to now start returning certificates they have ordered using the correct details they have found on FreeBMD etc., and demanding a refund under "sale of goods act" then the next step the GRO would in all probability make would be to stop this service altogether and then where would we be.
I have twice tried to order specific certificates from Greenwich Registrars and they were unable to find either, yet when I got them from the GRO they were exactly what I required. Dates, names & district 100% correct, but Greenwich had been unable to find them.
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If people were to now start returning certificates they have ordered using the correct details they have found on FreeBMD etc., and demanding a refund under "sale of goods act" then the next step the GRO would in all probability make would be to stop this service altogether and then where would we be.
This was one of the possible scenarios I highlighted in a previous post - The point raised by the original poster is an interesting one and one which could have wide ranging repercussions for the Genealogy world if it proves to be correct. (Just as it did with the retail traders)
We could speculate for ever and a day regarding this and I believe that the definitive answer lies with Trading Standards.
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Stan
You stated in one of your replies that the death must be registered in the area/district it occurrred in.
Is this a more recent (post 1950's) law.
My g/grandfather died in Reigate, Surrey, but his daughter (my gran) registered his birth in Westminster (this was in the 1940's).
Also my mum died in Southwark, but I had to go to Lambeth to register her death, I found this very odd. This was in the mid 1990's
The 1836 Act
XIX. And be it enacted, That the Father or Mother of any Child born, or the Occupier of every House or Tenement in England in which any Birth or Death shall happen, after the said First day of March, may, within Forty-two Days next after the Day of such Birth or within Five Days after the Day of such Death respectively, give Notice of such Birth or Death to the Registrar of the District;
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01f3/
The 1874 Act
9. The death of every person dying in England after the commencement of this Act, and cause of such death, shall be registered by the registrar in the manner directed by the Births and Deaths Registration Acts, 1836 to 1874.
14. It shall be the duty of the registrar to inform himself carefully of every death which happens within his sub-district.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0967/
Stan
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I had the unfortunate task of registering my husband's death last year. This is taken from the booklet given to me by the registrar.
Jebber
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There is no doubt in my mind the GRO are exempt from the DSR as they they have a statutory duty to supply certificates.
However they still have to ensure that any goods or services they supply are fit for purpose.
As long as you have stated checking points i.e. father's name Joe or Born in London etc. rather than simply a reference number. You are entitled to a full refund if the certificate does not match.
The Sale of Goods Act 1979 puts it this way-
"13. Sale by description
(1) Where there is a contract for the sale of goods by description, there is an implied term that the goods will correspond with the description.
14. Implied terms about quality or fitness
(2) Where the seller sells goods in the course of a business, there is an implied term that the goods supplied under the contract are of satisfactory quality.
(2A) For the purposes of this Act, goods are of satisfactory quality if they meet the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking account of any description of the goods, the price (if relevant) and all the other relevant circumstances.
34. Buyer's right of examining the goods
Unless otherwise agreed, when the seller tenders delivery of goods to the buyer, he is bound on request to afford the buyer a reasonable opportunity of examining the goods for the purpose of ascertaining whether they are in conformity with the contract and, in the case of a contract for sale by sample, of comparing the bulk with the sample."
Cheers
Guy
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I had the unfortunate task of registering my husband's death last year. This is taken from the booklet given to me by the registrar.
Jebber
This is the same procedure for registering a birth if you have moved out of the area before registering it. However the birth and death are still registered in the district in which they took place.
This has been allowed for births since the 1874 Act
Any person required by this Act to give information concerning a birth, who removes before such birth is registered out of the sub-district in which such birth has taken place, may, within three months after such birth, give the information by making and signing in the presence of the registrar of the sub-district in which he resides a declaration in writing of the particulars required to be registered concerning such birth; and such registrar on payment of the appointed fee shall receive and attest the declaration and send the same to the registrar of the sub-district in which the birth took place
Stan
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Having given a great deal of thought to the matter of whether the DSRs apply to the GRO and also speaking to Trading Standards whose reply was:-
"The Distance Selling Regulations only apply to commercial transactions. Therefore, if the GRO are providing a statutory service (which they probably are) the cancellation rights do not apply. Have you contacted the GRO to ask for an explanation?"
I am even more confused!
Helpfully (not) Trading Standards talk about "... if the GRO are providing a statutory service" and "...(which they probably are).."
So obviously they are as confused as I am.
Actually Plummiegirl when you say
"If people were to now start returning certificates ......... then the next step the GRO would .... be to stop this service altogether..." you are wrong.
It is a Statutory Service which means they have a Statutory obligation to do it some way or other.
I guess in reality they would just put the price up.
It just seems to me to be very unfair as there must be thousands of people buying thousands of certificates they do not want.
Not only is it a waste of their money, it is a waste of the GRO's time and the earth's resources.
In fact, as Falkyrn said, it comes down to the meaning of 'Statutory Function'.
In truth, what is actually happening here is that the GRO are primarily providing a Statutory Function for various legal purposes.
BUT, in addition, they are running a commercial enterprise providing family history enthusiasts with information. As far as I know this is by far and away the major part of their work. So much so that they have recently had to change their pricing structure.
I think the primary function should be exempt from the DSR but, this secondary commercial function should not be exempt. They should not be able to use this blanket exemption to cover all of their business, both statutory and commercial.
It would probably need to be tested in a court to get a clear decision and as has been said would probably backfire with an unreasonable increase in charges.
Who ever said the world was fair??
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I have just sent off for 1 of 2 possible births of my 3xgreat auntys son in 1872. I have taken a gamble and if it is not the right one and likely the other one I cannot expect a refund. It is a gamble in this genealogy game. If it is wrong then I shall have to send off for the other one.
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As you noted, MuttleyS, no organization is going to conduct business that costs them money. If they are required to return money to people, the GRO will just increase the costs of business. In fact, they may raise the costs to extreme rates in order to keep people from ordering. While I definitely understand the frustration of getting a certificate you did not want, I am not certain that the fight can be won. Either we accept what we are provided or we will see costs rise through the roof.
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I have just sent off for 1 of 2 possible births of my 3xgreat auntys son in 1872. I have taken a gamble and if it is not the right one and likely the other one I cannot expect a refund. It is a gamble in this genealogy game. If it is wrong then I shall have to send off for the other one.
I'd be interested to know if you would feel the same if you paid for a holiday that didn't turn out to be as you expected, maybe next to a building site, dirty linen or a toilet that didn't work; or bought a house that turned out to be next to very noisy neighbours.
If it is wrong you, "Just go and buy another one".
Just a gamble so you live with it do you?
Interesting philosophy on life!
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I think the primary function should be exempt from the DSR but, this secondary commercial function should not be exempt. They should not be able to use this blanket exemption to cover all of their business, both statutory and commercial.
I think the answer can be found in the FAQ's on the GRO site and is basically a byline in answer to another question " By law[/u] (my emphasis) the information supplied must be in the form of a certificate ...".
If therefore in providing a certificate for whatever purpose by law the GRO are required to provide it in the form of a certificate then that surely must fall under a Statutory Function ?
So anyone care to stick their head over the parapet and try a Test Case ? ...... (my money would be on you losing)
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I have just sent off for 1 of 2 possible births of my 3xgreat auntys son in 1872. I have taken a gamble and if it is not the right one and likely the other one I cannot expect a refund. It is a gamble in this genealogy game. If it is wrong then I shall have to send off for the other one.
I'd be interested to know if you would feel the same if you paid for a holiday that didn't turn out to be as you expected, maybe next to a building site, dirty linen or a toilet that didn't work; or bought a house that turned out to be next to very noisy neighbours.
If it is wrong you, "Just go and buy another one".
Just a gamble so you live with it do you?
Interesting philosophy on life!
Whoa there. Bit of an exaggeration. A few GRO certs are hardly a great holiday or a new home as I would do lots of research before choosing a dream holiday or home. If there are two Thomas Wilson's registered in the same quarter in the same year in the same district then you have to take a gamble with one at first. It may be the right one. If not then it is not the end of the world as you can order the other one. Simple.
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I think the answer can be found in the FAQ's on the GRO site and is basically a byline in answer to another question " By law[/u] (my emphasis) the information supplied must be in the form of a certificate ...".
If therefore in providing a certificate for whatever purpose by law the GRO are required to provide it in the form of a certificate then that surely must fall under a Statutory Function ?
I think the GRO's interpretation of the law is questionable. The legislation requires them to provide a certificate upon request and which is what they are doing. However, there doesn't appear to be anything in the legislation preventing them making the information available in some other form. They have simply decided not to make information available in any other way and there is no legal obligation for them to do so.
The provision of a certificate is a statutory requirement and in this respect the GRO is providing a statutory service.
Nigel
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Whoa there. Bit of an exaggeration. A few GRO certs are hardly a great holiday or a new home as I would do lots of research before choosing a dream holiday or home. If there are two Thomas Wilson's registered in the same quarter in the same year in the same district then you have to take a gamble with one at first. It may be the right one. If not then it is not the end of the world as you can order the other one. Simple.
Yes I agree but look at it this way:- over the years you could easily buy 2 or 3 hundred certificates. (3 Births Deaths Marriages for each person - that is only 63 people). If only 10% are wrong (you could go wrong more than once on a person) that would be 20 or 30 wasted certificates. At £9-25 each that could be £277.50.
That might not be a lot of money to you but to a pensioner like me.........(don't get out the violins just yet)
Also, if lots of enthusiasts are doing roughly the same then the GRO are making tens of thousands a year supplying useless documents.
As I said earlier, not only is it a waste of everybody's money it is also a waste of the GROs time and the world resources.
Oh, and believe me, it doesn't matter how much research you do beforehand, buying a house or a holiday can go very wrong for unforseen circumstances.
There HAS to be some consumer protection.
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And if you looked a telephone number up in the directory and dialed the wrong number would you expect BT to give you a refund ???
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You shouldn't have to order two or three certificates just to get the one you want.
You can increase your chances of getting the right one by not quoting a reference number, and giving the year and quarter (if known) plus any information you have which might be expected to appear on the certificate. This is, of course, a bit of an unknown quantity with death certificates, but I have found local register offices respond very well in these cases. I write a letter and put down everything I know - past occupations, addresses, names of likely informants .... any of these may be a clue to identifying the right one.
Don't see why this approach shouldn't work with the GRO if the local office isn't an option. There is no longer a charge for checking. A letter gives you a lot more freedom than an online form, and will only cost a stamp and a day or two in time.
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And if you looked a telephone number up in the directory and dialed the wrong number would you expect BT to give you a refund ???
Well, just think about it. Try and work out the same situation rather than an idea that is way off the point.
IF BT's telephone directory gave me a choice of 2 or 3 numbers for someone and did not give me enough information to work out EXACTLY which was the right one then YES I would expect them to give me my money back.
Anyway, the Distant Selling Regulations are about buying a product 'unseen', online and the consumer protection that even the government realises they have to give.
Your comment about using the 'phone is a complete red herring I'm afraid.
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I think the primary function should be exempt from the DSR but, this secondary commercial function should not be exempt. They should not be able to use this blanket exemption to cover all of their business, both statutory and commercial.
I think the answer can be found in the FAQ's on the GRO site and is basically a byline in answer to another question " By law[/u] (my emphasis) the information supplied must be in the form of a certificate ...".
If therefore in providing a certificate for whatever purpose by law the GRO are required to provide it in the form of a certificate then that surely must fall under a Statutory Function ?
So anyone care to stick their head over the parapet and try a Test Case ? ...... (my money would be on you losing)
There is no need they are governed by the Sale of Goods Act.
Which is why the were forced to withdraw the "checking service".
That was a dubious practice to enable a percentage of the fee to be withheld, their lawyers have now agreed that that was unlawful.
They still have to ensure they provide what they are asked to provide.
While ever people try to push the Distance Selling Regulations they are happy as they come under an exemption.
Instead use the Sale of Goods Act under the sections I noted in an earlier post.
Cheers
Guy
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Whoa there. Bit of an exaggeration. A few GRO certs are hardly a great holiday or a new home as I would do lots of research before choosing a dream holiday or home. If there are two Thomas Wilson's registered in the same quarter in the same year in the same district then you have to take a gamble with one at first. It may be the right one. If not then it is not the end of the world as you can order the other one. Simple.
Yes I agree but look at it this way:- over the years you could easily buy 2 or 3 hundred certificates. (3 Births Deaths Marriages for each person - that is only 63 people). If only 10% are wrong (you could go wrong more than once on a person) that would be 20 or 30 wasted certificates. At £9-25 each that could be £277.50.
That might not be a lot of money to you but to a pensioner like me.........(don't get out the violins just yet)
Also, if lots of enthusiasts are doing roughly the same then the GRO are making tens of thousands a year supplying useless documents.
As I said earlier, not only is it a waste of everybody's money it is also a waste of the GROs time and the world resources.
Oh, and believe me, it doesn't matter how much research you do beforehand, buying a house or a holiday can go very wrong for unforseen circumstances.
There HAS to be some consumer protection.
Yes I see what you mean there but I think a lot of companies want more money and I think the GRO also rely on people buying wrong certs as it generates them revenue. But I suppose if we returned the cert they could give us at least a partial refund.
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Whoa there. Bit of an exaggeration. A few GRO certs are hardly a great holiday or a new home as I would do lots of research before choosing a dream holiday or home. If there are two Thomas Wilson's registered in the same quarter in the same year in the same district then you have to take a gamble with one at first. It may be the right one. If not then it is not the end of the world as you can order the other one. Simple.
Yes I agree but look at it this way:- over the years you could easily buy 2 or 3 hundred certificates. (3 Births Deaths Marriages for each person - that is only 63 people). If only 10% are wrong (you could go wrong more than once on a person) that would be 20 or 30 wasted certificates. At £9-25 each that could be £277.50.
That might not be a lot of money to you but to a pensioner like me.........(don't get out the violins just yet)
Also, if lots of enthusiasts are doing roughly the same then the GRO are making tens of thousands a year supplying useless documents.
As I said earlier, not only is it a waste of everybody's money it is also a waste of the GROs time and the world resources.
Oh, and believe me, it doesn't matter how much research you do beforehand, buying a house or a holiday can go very wrong for unforseen circumstances.
There HAS to be some consumer protection.
Yes I see what you mean there but I think a lot of companies want more money and I think the GRO also rely on people buying wrong certs as it generates them revenue. But I suppose if we returned the cert they could give us at least a partial refund.
Good point.
Fundamentally I cannot see what would be the problem with making the information available at the Records Centre in Kew (or better still online).
The information must be there (at least on microfiche but I suspect it is digitised by now) for the GRO to be able to print it.
There would then be no problem because you would be sure of what you are buying having seen it.
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The problem with making the information available on-line is quite simple. Currently only the indexes have been digitised. Various projects to achieve this have failed due to lack of money, although I am not sure what is the current situation.
David
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Scotland must have stumped up the money to digitise their registers.
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The problem with making the information available on-line is quite simple. Currently only the indexes have been digitised. Various projects to achieve this have failed due to lack of money, although I am not sure what is the current situation.
David
Mmm! I don't really understand that.
OK so they may have not been digitised but they must be on microfiche or something similar in order for the GRO to print them off.
Why can't the microfiche copies be stored at Kew?
I understand that the whole process of printing certificates at Southport is automated. How could that be if they were not digitised?
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Why can't the microfiche copies be stored at Kew?
One trip to Kew would cost me hell of a lot more than the two wrong certificates I've purchased so far.
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Mutley,
You are showing your lack of knowledge on this subject. Certs from the GRO are not printed off any microfiche they are in fact handwritten or type written copies of the copies of the originals. These are stored in large volumes. As someone as already mentioned only the indexes have been digitised and then by companies such as Ancetry. The work that was being carried out by Siemens was stopped when it ran over budget and the government realised they couldn not legally do this. (that was their excuse) The last time I looked at the relevant website they were looking at a new possibility.
As for Scotland two things spring to mind. One Civil registration didnt start there till much later and the country is much smaller than England and Wales so the records are fewer. Their certs though carry far more information than ours.
I agree with Guy that the sales of Goods act is the route to go if the cert is wrong however I believe that if you dont put as much info as you can and the cert matches what you have put (even if not your family) then there would be no claim. I do stand to be corrected on this point.
Rob
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Mutley,
You are showing your lack of knowledge on this subject. Certs from the GRO are not printed off any microfiche they are in fact handwritten or type written copies of the copies of the originals. These are stored in large volumes. As someone as already mentioned only the indexes have been digitised and then by companies such as Ancetry. The work that was being carried out by Siemens was stopped when it ran over budget and the government realised they couldn not legally do this. (that was their excuse) The last time I looked at the relevant website they were looking at a new possibility.
As for Scotland two things spring to mind. One Civil registration didnt start there till much later and the country is much smaller than England and Wales so the records are fewer. Their certs though carry far more information than ours.
I agree with Guy that the sales of Goods act is the route to go if the cert is wrong however I believe that if you dont put as much info as you can and the cert matches what you have put (even if not your family) then there would be no claim. I do stand to be corrected on this point.
Rob
I bow to your superior knowledgs but I am still not sure that that is entirely correct.
1. I have definitely read somewhere that the process is automated. In other words no human intervention.
2. The most recent certificates I have received are basically in two sections. A generic form with additional generic information such as 'Registrastion District' typed in. In the centre of the form is the specific record information which is clearly a copy of a section of an old documnet which has been over printed onto the generic form. You can tell this by the dirt and noise introduced by the copying process. The hand script appears to be an old style too.
There is no handwriting on the certificates that isn't original.
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from the GRO FAQ
Q24. I am not happy with the certificate you have sent me or the service I have received.
Use our online complaints form to send us a message. When you submit this form it will generate an email to us with the details you have supplied. We will respond to your email within 5 working days.
Q18. How will I receive a refund if my application is unsuccessful?
If you have asked us to make a search on your behalf (an application without a GRO reference number) and the search is unsuccessful, GRO will provide a full refund. The refund will be made directly to your credit/debit card account via the Worldpay payment service provider. A letter or e-mail of explanation will also be sent to you at this time. Please do not contact the General Register Office to enquire about any refund made until you have received and read this letter/email.
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Mutley,
It is probable that you were lucky enough to get a photocopy of the original book that was sent to the GRO. I have just emailed teh GRO to obtain an absolute answer.
The wiki site seems to have that all births and deaths to 1934 and 1957 respectively have been digitised under the old DoVE project. I would therefore have to apologise for my incorrect information
Rob
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There is no handwriting on the certificates that isn't original.
It is not a copy of the original document, though. It is a copy of the transcription of the original document that was sent to GRO from the local Registrar soon after the event. It will not have your relative's signature. Take a look at a GRO marriage certificate - assuming at least one of the parties or witnesses signed their name (as opposed to making a mark) - you will see that all the "signatures" are in the same handwriting - because it's a transcription.
Another good reason for approaching the local Register Office rather than GRO - some local ROs (not all) are able to supply a scanned copy of the original document. GRO has no access to the original documents, these remain with the local registrar.
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Mutley,
snip
Certs from the GRO are not printed off any microfiche they are in fact handwritten or type written copies of the copies of the originals.
snip
Rob
The GRO Southport has thousands of microfilms on cassette, these used to be the first line for supplying copies of certificates. The relevant frame was chosen, aligned with the mask and printed onto the certificate paper.
Many of these microfilms have been digitised for internal use, the digitised copies are printed through a mask in the same way as the microfilm.
When the image is too poor to be printed the order is transferred to another station where a typed certificate is produced.
As has been previously mentioned the GRO holds transcripts of registers not original registers.
Cheers
Guy
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The increase has not put me right off as I have just ordered 4 more certs. I am spending a birthday windfall I recieved.
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Coombs - The price has not put me off - much - but I think it must have put lots of other people off, because certs are arriving in around 4 days from request now. I'm sure it would have been more profitable to reduce the prices, that's what supermarkets do when they want more customers and more profit.
Lizzie
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Coombs - The price has not put me off - much - but I think it must have put lots of other people off, because certs are arriving in around 4 days from request now. I'm sure it would have been more profitable to reduce the prices, that's what supermarkets do when they want more customers and more profit.
Lizzie
The GRO is not a supermarket and their pricing structure is not worked out the way a supermarket works out its prices.
The pricing structure for certificates is calculated according to costs and set down in a statutory instrument.
The GRO has to cover the costs of a service without making a profit.
They cannot run a loss leader as a supermarket would do to attract customers who would then purchase other goods with higher profit margins, each service has to cover its own costs.
If the full costs of producing a certificate, including the costs to archive the registers was taken into account a certificate could cost around £20 (it is for that reason that supermarkets do not run vast warehouses storing products, instead they only purchase enough to stock for about 4 weeks supply).
We are actually getting a cheap service as the archive costs are being allocated elsewhere.
Cheers
Guy
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I agree up to a point Guy, but the costs to archive the records have already been paid for over the years that people have been buying certificates. I agree that the taxpayers should not subsidise our hobby though.
However, what I did find irritating was that when I registered my mother's death in 2007, for some reason the registrar had to make the entry by hand first and then type it onto the computer. Having got the info on the computer, I had to pay the full price for each copy that was printed off. I know the paper is more expensive than white paper bought from an office stationer, but surely they buy the BMD paper in bulk and it cannot possibly cost £7 (now £9.25) to print off each copy.
Lizzie
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Lizzie,
From the Government's own website.
You'll be able to buy one or more death certificates at this time (the price varies between local authorities). These will be needed by the executor or administrator when sorting out the person's affairs.
Your local authority were on to a good money making scheme. Last year for seven certificates I was charged £17-50, the six extra were charged at £1-75 each.
Jebber
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I agree up to a point Guy, but the costs to archive the records have already been paid for over the years that people have been buying certificates. I agree that the taxpayers should not subsidise our hobby though.
However, what I did find irritating was that when I registered my mother's death in 2007, for some reason the registrar had to make the entry by hand first and then type it onto the computer. Having got the info on the computer, I had to pay the full price for each copy that was printed off. I know the paper is more expensive than white paper bought from an office stationer, but surely they buy the BMD paper in bulk and it cannot possibly cost £7 (now £9.25) to print off each copy.
Lizzie
I was writing about the GRO not the local registrar Lizzie. ;)
Many local registrars charge full price for one death certificate then a reduced price for copies.
With regard to the archiving of registers, there are ongoing costs which increases every year, it is wrong to assume the archiving costs have already been paid.
Without heating/air conditioning the registers would deteriorate. In addition replacement microfilms have to be made when the originals wear out/scratch. Digitising costs to replace microfilm format records, computers etc. to store the new digital records, power, staffing costs etc., etc.
It is easy to assume the only cost is the paper and ink but there are really far more costs involved in producing a certificate than may first be thought.
Cheers
Guy
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However, what I did find irritating was that when I registered my mother's death in 2007, for some reason the registrar had to make the entry by hand first and then type it onto the computer. Having got the info on the computer, I had to pay the full price for each copy that was printed off. I know the paper is more expensive than white paper bought from an office stationer, but surely they buy the BMD paper in bulk and it cannot possibly cost £7 (now £9.25) to print off each copy.
Lizzie
I am sure there was something in the new fees details that said in future all multiple copies will be charged at the full price, however I can not find the link at the moment - someone else may have more luck
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That was a dubious practice to enable a percentage of the fee to be withheld, their lawyers have now agreed that that was unlawful.
if that's the case, can I get the rest of my money back?!
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This is from this months"Your Family History" which has an excellent article on the GRO:
"The GRO holds in the region of 260 million records & over half of these records have bee digitized.
Birth Records 1837 - 1934 Death Records 1837 - 1957 These are the record types most requested be members of the public applying to the GRO for copies of certificates"
"If the applicant has not provided the GRO index reference number, a member of staff has to search to find it"
Once an order has been received:
"For records that have been digitized, this process is automated. The application moves on to the production stage electronically and the production agent reprographically produces the digitized image onto a blank certificate"
Records not digitized (on some 90,000 microfilm cassettes) or others which produce queries are processed from microfilm.
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"Your Family Tree" is known as "Your Family History" outside of the UK. The content is the same in both magazines.
Stan
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Readers may be interested in a similiar discussion here:-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,465491.0.html
genreaserch did you ever get a reply from GRO regarding how their system actually works? I think we would all like to be better informed.
Mutley,
It is probable that you were lucky enough to get a photocopy of the original book that was sent to the GRO. I have just emailed teh GRO to obtain an absolute answer..........
Rob
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Genresearch's assumption about original documents ("It is probable that you were lucky enough to get a photocopy of the original book that was sent to the GRO") was incorrect. No original documents were sent to the GRO. Instead, the local Superintendent Registrar sent copies of the entries each quarter - these were transcribed by hand. The original book always remained with the local Superintendent Registrar and never went to the GRO.
See my post 45 above, which was confirmed by Guy.
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The relevant sections in An Act for registering Births, Deaths, and Marriages in England. [17 August 1836] 6 & 7 Will. IV. c.86, are
Section XXXII. Certified Copies of Registers of Births and Deaths to be sent quarterly, and the Register Books when filled, to the Superintendent Registrar.
Section XXXIII. Duplicates and certified Copies of Registers of Marriage to be sent to Superintendent Registrar.
You can see the full wording of the sections at http://www.rootschat.com/links/01f3/
Stan
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And Section XXXIV (Superintendent Registrars to send certified copies of Registers to the General Register Office.)
And be it enacted, That every Superintendent Registrar shall, Four Times in every Year, on such Days as shall be therefore named by the Registrar General, send to the Registrar General all the certified Copies of the Registers of Births, Deaths, and Marriages which he shall have so received during the Three Calendar Months next preceding such quarterly Days of Transmission respectively
Thanks, Stan.
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Sloe The book sent to the GRO is original in so much as it is not a photostat of any other book. You also fail to make note of my post prior to that when I said a copy of a copy. I do take the point though that it could be misconstrued and I will in future make it understandable for all.
Just because Guy confirms something does not make it correct although on this occasion he was.
Muttley I did get a response and didn't post it because others had already explained the situation quite adequately.
Rob
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Going off at a slight tangent, Plummiegirl, I'm interested in the 'Your Family History' article on the GRO that you mention in so I'd like to get a copy. Was it the British magazine, or the American one?
Thanks
Mean_genie
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The British one
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Thought it would be - thanks, I'll track one down
Mean_genie