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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: johncrowner on Saturday 10 July 10 17:22 BST (UK)

Title: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: johncrowner on Saturday 10 July 10 17:22 BST (UK)
I think this attempt might work! can you identify the age of this bike please? Thanks
Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: Geoff-E on Saturday 10 July 10 17:49 BST (UK)
There are similar ones here http://www.classicbsamotorcycles.co.uk/ ... but they seem to have front brakes.

I see from Wiki that BSA made its first bike in 1910 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Small_Arms_Company#Motorcycles
Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: t mo on Saturday 10 July 10 18:12 BST (UK)
hi john
the bike is called in modern terms a flat tank machine built around the 1920s the inner rim on the back wheel is for the drive belt and the tubes on the side of the engine are for the push rods to operate the valves also the the thing onthe side of the tank is an oil pump as this early they didnt have built in pumps in the engine , would also hazard a guess and say its a single speed bike hence no gear lever later machines in the 30s had a lever on the side of the tank where the oil pump is   t mo
Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: johncrowner on Saturday 10 July 10 19:43 BST (UK)
Thanks for this, Mo. I had also checked the BSA site quoted, but I didn't see any machine like this. I did wonder whether it could have been earlier than 1911, before reading that BSA's were first made in 1910, and sold in 1911. The reason I had thought that was because the chap holding it had previously been identified as a village vet who died in 1911!!! If the bike is a 1920's model, its back to the research! Anyone guess at his age? thanks   John   
Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: t mo on Saturday 10 July 10 21:22 BST (UK)
hi john just been looking up bsa history and reckon i,m wrong on the age of the bike it could be as early as 1912only it,s stated that in 1912 bsa changed the frame from having a straight top tube (the one directly above the petrol tank )to a drop tube to give a better riding position if you look at the photo you can see that is the configuration of the chaps bike it follows the line of the top of the petrol tank . your best bet is to contact the Vintage Motorcycle Club  there e -mail address is     hq@vmcc.net    they have loads of info and you may even find that the bike is still in use , sorry to jump the gun before checking my facts   yours  trevor (t mo)
Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: jksdelver on Saturday 10 July 10 21:29 BST (UK)
If the number is AP2991 then that was issued from Dec 1903 to Feb 1922.

This plate would have been issued by East Sussex C.C. If it is 2994 then it is the same year span
Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: johncrowner on Sunday 11 July 10 07:51 BST (UK)
Thanks, T Mo. I had wondered about the pedals. If BSA started building m/cycles in 1911, could they have built engine assisted bicycles before this. None of the pictures on the BSA classic site shows pedals, even on the earliest  ones. I'll do what you suggest, and look at the vintage m/cycle site . John
Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: Borley Manor on Sunday 11 July 10 16:26 BST (UK)
Found it at last....
The pedals and chain would have been only for getting one home, exactly like a pushbike. If the engine packed up, or ran out of juice, then pedal home you go. I will delve further and see if I can identify it...
Borley Manor
Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: Borley Manor on Sunday 11 July 10 16:48 BST (UK)
The first two, a model H, and a model K, are both 1915, the third one is 1920'ish, i can't remember now, but you can see how things are moving on apace.... :o
Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: Borley Manor on Sunday 11 July 10 16:49 BST (UK)
Ooops, the Model H
Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: Borley Manor on Sunday 11 July 10 16:50 BST (UK)
The model K both H and K are 500 cc...
Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: johncrowner on Sunday 11 July 10 19:23 BST (UK)
Hi, Borley Wood. Thanks for delving into this for me. I note that even the earliest model doesn't have pedals, though! I'm waiting for a reply from the vintage motorcycle site so, if they contact me with the model no. and date, I will let you know. Thanks again.    John
Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: youngtug on Sunday 11 July 10 19:48 BST (UK)
I dont think it is pedals, just the angle and resolution of the photo. The anomalie as far as I can see is the lack of a front wheel brake.
Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: Borley Manor on Sunday 11 July 10 20:56 BST (UK)
1911 3.5. hp BSA, note pedals, and no front brake per se

Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: youngtug on Sunday 11 July 10 21:31 BST (UK)
I stand corrected
Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: t mo on Sunday 11 July 10 21:52 BST (UK)
hi john
bsa did make push bikes with engines and supllied parts for other makers starting in 1905 but not till 1909 did they seriously develop their own product  in 1910 they launched their three and a half horsepower  belt driven single . as you,ve said please post anything you find out regarding the bike as it,s got me hooked now    t mo
Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: johncrowner on Monday 12 July 10 07:37 BST (UK)
Tthanks everyone for your help on this- I think you have now cracked it! 1911 bike it is then-just a note of interest-the chap holding it was a local vet, born in 1846 and died 1911 aged therefore 65 when picture taken. He and his wife had 16 children. so THATS what keeps you young!! I had estimated his age at 40-45! Thanks again   John
Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: Borley Manor on Monday 12 July 10 10:53 BST (UK)
http://www.nationalmotorcyclemuseum.co.uk/museum/exhibits/New-Comet/1911-3-%C2%BD-hp-New-Comet-Model-A1-/54/

I found this little gem whilst on the search. If you look at the details under the website picture, it tells of the early design, and the makers of different motorcycles, in and around the Birmingham area in 1911. Everyone was on the bandwagon as it were. Different engines, different frames, and so on. Somebody, obviously, had to lead the pack, and BSA won I suppose... ::)

Borley Manor

Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: Carrie Ann on Monday 12 July 10 12:48 BST (UK)
Hubby says 1900-1918.
Hope that helps,
Carrie Ann.
Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: vintman on Monday 12 July 10 19:28 BST (UK)
I am assuming this part 2 of the earlier tread headed " Identify this motorcycle please?". You may therefore care to note my earlier contribution:

"Hi,

Guessing that the date for AP2994 is unlikely to have been before 1911. First BSA was introduced in 1910 and not on the market until 1911. Registration AP is East Sussex but dating data has been lost for the period. AP 2994 would be likely in about 1913. In West Sussex, next door,  the same reg for bikes is late 1915.

Regards

Vitamin

PS.  You may also care to note that the odd number of the AP series were for cars and even numbers for motorcycles. As this is pre WW1, widespread use of motorcycles would not have commenced so numbering would be low per the early years.  Hence a later date would be more likely than earlier.

Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: vintman on Monday 12 July 10 19:39 BST (UK)
BSA 1913 photo attached which generally matches, especially the rear wheel drive pulley.
Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: johncrowner on Monday 12 July 10 20:06 BST (UK)
Thanks for the Photo: all your efforts much appreciated.  John
Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: Borley Manor on Tuesday 13 July 10 01:05 BST (UK)
The 1913 pictre could well be the same model, but, BSA stopped using the block brake principal on the front wheels in 1912. The system worked okay for a while, but, was comparatively useless in action, in fact a couple of minor accidents were directly atributable to the poor effect these brakes had at any speed. I suspect the pictured bike was registered in 1913, but is actually a 1911 model, sold at a later date, maybe even abroad. By 1913, all frontbrakes were of the  banded type, same with the rear as well, these were first introduced for the 'mass' market in August 1912. The block brake, which looks almost invisible on a lot of early bikes, quite often stripped the thread of the bolt, mounting it to the frame/forks, due to the forward friction of the block on the wheel rim when applied, okay on a bicycle, but a 3.5 hp motorised jobbie was an entirely different kettle of fish, thus evolution carries forwards all the time..
Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: jpwilli on Thursday 15 July 10 21:22 BST (UK)
I have a similar photo but luckily the plate was showing...we looked up the registration and was totally able to ID it!

Best of luck!
Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: hallmark on Tuesday 27 July 10 20:43 BST (UK)
others answered you here...  http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=467173.new#new
Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: sjc204 on Friday 30 July 10 22:00 BST (UK)
For my 2d worth it looks as though both the first one and the last one have bicycle type brakes on the front wheel, close to the forks.
Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: johncrowner on Friday 06 August 10 15:26 BST (UK)
 I now have a reply fromVMCC to whom I sent a Photo. Their reply, quote"Exhibits features from both 1914 & 1915 models; may be a transitional model, not shown in sales catalogue. Probably single sv. four stroke 3.5 hp. Price when new about £50 " I think RootsChat experts probably know best! Thanks for all the interest
Title: Re: Date of motorcycle?
Post by: Borley Manor on Friday 06 August 10 16:53 BST (UK)
You are very welcome, it was an interesting debate, so thankyou for your original question, it has more than created a worthy debate amongst my 'biker' acquaintances..... ;D