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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: terryt on Friday 09 July 10 06:25 BST (UK)
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Donald Sutherland had 4 children with an Indian woman called "Sally Wapisk" in Canada in the early 1800's.
I think she was a Cree Indian. How do I find out more information about her?
terryt
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Hiya Terryt...do you know what province of Canada ?....allan :)
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hi allan :) :)
the manitoba district.
terryt
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This Donald?
http://www.gov.mb.ca/chc/archives/hbca/biographical/s/sutherland_donald.pdf
Considering his connection to Berens River you might want to look for info on Berens River First Nation.
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There is a SALLY WAPISK b 1795 Canada in a familytree on GenesReunited....the members name is Len...
there is also one b 1800 in Hudson Bay, which I think includes Manitoba ?...that members name is William.....allan :)
ADDED...Jorose - that`s great info, just looked at that link...gives the four childrens names and yet doesn`t name the mum......?....am I right in thinking that Donald himself wrote this Journal ?....considering it started over 220 years ago he was obviously a well educated man.......allan :)
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The link is just a summary of the Hudson's Bay Company records on Donald Sutherland.
It sounds like he had all the children baptised together in 1821, the priest/minister might not have bothered recording the mother's name, it's also possible she was deceased at this point as it mentions him coming back with children but not with her?
The journals might contain a lot more info and tidbits, perhaps mentioning Sally and her family.
http://www.gov.mb.ca/chc/archives/hbca/ (home page of the HBC archives)
Google Books also shows some possibilities.
For example "The fur trade of the Little North:Indians, pedlars, and Englishmen, east of Lake Winnipeg" has some hits on him.
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Native women were often called "Indian woman" as my husband has some ancestors he'll never trace...
Having looked through several of the archives records, it is riddled with "Indian women"
Wapisk may have actually be the name of his wife. Sometimes the European husbands gave English or Scottish forenames..naming them after a sister or even their own mothers ( ick) to their "country" wives.... ( married by way of the country, in short not a religious ceremony ) Which may be another reason why the mother isn't mentioned.
Each of the HBCA Reference numbers in the document jorose found for you signifies an entry in the archives regarding the summary to the left.... the journals are also in a seperate file. There are likely many more files on him, but these are some that came up for them when looking through the files, and are certain to be his. Looks as though someone could have fun at the HBC archives....but I won't look up that many pages, sorry! ( you need to use those numbers to look for more numbers, etc....bit of a pain, actually... ;D J.J.
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This person says has lots of info so may have done some searching through the archives already?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Little_Dingo
altho email may not work anymore if it is live it will have been spammed to no end...but is a recent entry so you may be lucky..J.J.
also Simpson gives him permission to take children back with him http://books.google.ca/books?id=YUc-sAvji6QC&pg=PA200&lpg=PA200&dq=v=onepage&q=%22Donald%20Sutherland%22%20&f=false#v
Speaking of Gov. Simpson reminds me that he rejected his country wife ( & children) to marry his cousin and had encouraged ( ordered ) the men in his employ to do the same ( especially those with titles )...Many men had already gone back home leaving their wives prior to this so she may not have died prior to his taking the children.
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Cree word. Wapiskaw—Wapisk—Clear, to be able to see through. http://tansikiya.wordpress.com/
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I am also interested in Donald Sutherland and Sally Wapisk as I am a descendant of one of their four children. I too have been doing some research and welcome any information.
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Hello miegunyah,
Where do you fit in?
UK or Australia.
terryt
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miegunyah,
or canada
i would like to exchange information. maybe i have something you dont and vice versa.
regards
terry t
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Here is the microfilm number for the journals in the HBC archives
http://www.gov.mb.ca/chc/archives/hbca/resource/post_rec/post2.html
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Terry, I'm new to RootsChat. Would like to correspond privately but don't know how to. I'm descended from Isabella who emigrated to Australia. I do have some information and happy to share.
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Hello Pam,
I am from Isabell Jane McKay Weir who married George Porter.
Their daughter Teresa May Porter married Charles Leu.
She was my grandmother.
Regards Terryt
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miegunyah just hit the green scroll to the left under the name/avatar of the person to whom you wish to send a message...and a personal message window will pop up...J.J.
Hint: when you get a personal message...don't answer on the pop up window, but x out & go up to the top right corner to Welcome back,miegunyah, you have __ messages, 1 is new....and type your reply from there...Otherwise one tends to hit the reply button, which of course sends the senders message back to them... ;) J.J.
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thanks JJ
i'v got it
Terry t
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this person has some information which says the death cert had that he was the "widower of Sally Wapisk"
This must have been information from the daughter Jane? They were married, but probably "by the way of the country" which meant not by church, and that should circumstances change, mutual agreement could allow them to part ways at any time. Have either of you asked for the information on the marriages of the four children, as to the name of the mother??
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/suth_to_aus/message/1663?o=1&d=-1 Might be one of you asking this, but the answer looks as though someone has looked into the life of Donald and he also has contacts -other descendants if you ask him...
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Any one seeking info on Sally Wapisk married Donald Sutherland I am also seeking info on this. I am a descendent of both of them via Isabella Sutherland who migrated to Australia. I would love to talk to anyone with any info on either Sallyor Donald. I have some info on both but it is limited to what I have been able to find on the net. Hope to hear from some one soon, cheers Shaz.
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Hello Shaz,
I am from Isabella to.
I have some information re Weir and Porter connection.
terryt.
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Hi
I am just starting out researching the family, although I am carrying on with the work started by my Grandmother and Mother which has now passed onto me.
I am intrested in contacting others who are researching / are descendants of Donald Sutherland & Sally Wapisk, particularly as I know that 3 of the 4 children emigrated after there return to Scotland. I myself am descended from Jane Grant nee Sutherland. I am still in the process of going through all the records handed down to me, which are numerous as up until my Mother the family remained in and around Brora.
4th Great Grandparents - Donald Sutherland & Sally Wapisk
3rd Great Grandmother - Jane Grant
2nd Great Grandfather - Donald Grant
Great Grandfather - Alexander Grant
Grandmother - Enid Hamilton
Mother - Kathleen Hendren
Regards
Stuart Hendren
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Stuartdh & shaz69 welcome to rootschat. It would be delightful to have the descendants of this family find each other. Hopefully more information comes to light for you all, regarding Sally, but don't hold your collective breath...J.J.
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Hello Stuart,
I am a descendent of both of them via Isabella Sutherland who migrated to Australia. I would love to talk to anyone with any info on either Sallyor Donald. I have some info on both but it is limited.
terry t
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Hi All
Thanks for the welcome JJ. I agree that it is good that descendants of Donald and Sally can have the opportunity to find each other and am looking forward to that aspect of my research.
On the subject of Sally I would have to agree with you that hopping to find any more than is already known is highly unlikely. My Grandmother was born in Canada to Alexander Grant and though the family returned to Scotland when she was young, she spent some time back out in Canada over the years visiting relatives and during that time was not able to unearth many more details. The only possibility is that in the future further records of the Hudson Bay Trading Company may come to light which help.
On the subject of Donald I will be able to provide more information on his life after his return to Scotland in 1824 to those that are intrested as I go through the records that I have. In the meantime I have attached a photo that I have of Isabella and John Weir for those who are descended form that line.
Best Regards
Stuart
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Hello Stuart,
My line comes down through Isabella Jane McKay WEIR, the daughter of Isabella in the photo.
She married a George Porter.
I have the photo you sent.
Regards
Terry t
Are you in Scotland
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Hi Terry
I think the photo may have originated from other relatives in Australia, which would explain why it is known to you. :)
I am now living in England, but lived in Scotland till my early 20's. The family are currently planning a trip to Scotland in June and will be staying at Pier House in Brora, which was built by Donald Sutherland in the 1820's, (now a B&B), which I am looking forward too as I can spend some time in local research as well as an opportunity to visit with my Great Aunt on the way there, Perth, to pick her brains on the family history.
One item that has come too light is a photograph of a painting, which according to some letters from 1995, purports to be of Sally Wapisk. I am currently tracing this painting and information that pertains too it. If I can verify that it may be, I will put it up here.
Regards
Stuart
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Hello Stuart,
I have heard the story of the Sally Wapisk painting. It would be great to get a copy.
I have attached a photo of Isabell Jane McKay Weir(daughter of Isabella) who married George Porter.
Regards,
terryt
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the image was too big,
How did you attach your photo stuart
terryt
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Hi Terry
I had to fiddle with the picture settings to get it below the required size of 500kb's. I use several photo editing packages but a free one that I find useful for reducing size is is called Gimp.
Attached is the picture of the portrait which is purported to be of Sally Wapisk. The only reference I can find in my mums notes is that the portrait was in the possession of the Earl of Strathmore, beyond that I do not have any details as to why it was thought to be of Sally (though I am sure that for some reason it was thought to be so). I have contacted Glamis castle and they have had a look and cannot identify the painting and suggest that I try the Scottish national gallery in Edinburgh as there are a number of portraits on permanent loan. If such a painting exists I can only speculate on how it came to be in the possession of the Earl of Strathmore. In the meantime I will show the picture to my Great Aunt the next time I see her and see if she can shed some light on the claim. If anyone else on th forum has any more information then that would be welcome either way.
Kind Regards
Stuart
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Hello Stuart,
Yes I also wonder if it is in fact Sally.
Does her daughter bear any resemblence?
Maybe some more information will come to light.
Are the letters you mention have any family history which may be of interest to me?
Regards
terryt
ps i can send my e-mail address if it helps
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Hi everyone,
I am a also a descendant of Donald and Sally through their son William; our line of the family ended up in New Zealand. I am picking up on the research started by my Fathers cousin and would be interested in sharing any information on Donald and Sally and the generations before or after.
I have a "translated" copy of Donald's Berens River House journal which is fascinating reading and I think Dad's cousin has more journals from other posts held by Donald. There is only one mention of Sally in the journal I have saying that she trapped a fox.
You guys may have copies of these journals already but if not I would be happy to scan you what I have.
What I would be most interested in is any information or leads on Donald's parents through the parish records? I believe I read somewhere that he may have been born in Durness?
Kind Regards,
Hamish
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Good to hear from you Hamish.
I know Donald was born in Clyne, Sutherlandshire in 1778.
His father was Donald and mother Jane Mackay.
I have not got copy of his journal but would appreciate anything i could get.
Regards TerryT
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Hi TerryT,
Looks like I might need to email the journal to you directly; it is 2MB and the minimum allowable attachment is 500Kb. I can probably get the rest of them off my cousin and email you personally if you like.
Cheers,
Hamish
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Hamish
I have sent you a personal message.
Let me know if you get it?
Terry t
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Hi Terry
I had to fiddle with the picture settings to get it below the required size of 500kb's. I use several photo editing packages but a free one that I find useful for reducing size is is called Gimp.
Attached is the picture of the portrait which is purported to be of Sally Wapisk. The only reference I can find in my mums notes is that the portrait was in the possession of the Earl of Strathmore, beyond that I do not have any details as to why it was thought to be of Sally (though I am sure that for some reason it was thought to be so). I have contacted Glamis castle and they have had a look and cannot identify the painting and suggest that I try the Scottish national gallery in Edinburgh as there are a number of portraits on permanent loan. If such a painting exists I can only speculate on how it came to be in the possession of the Earl of Strathmore. In the meantime I will show the picture to my Great Aunt the next time I see her and see if she can shed some light on the claim. If anyone else on th forum has any more information then that would be welcome either way.
Kind Regards
Stuart
Hi Stuart
I have not been on here for a while & am just catching up on all the Donald & Sally situation. I have to say that I don't think this pic could be off Sally her features nose, mouth & shape of her face is completely different to her daughter Isabella, (one would expect SOME differences). The picture of (Sally) looks like the lady is french defiantly not Cree Indian to me. Is there anywhere (in any Indian records) that we can chase up the death of Sally that you may know of? Cheers Shaz
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Hi everyone,
I am a also a descendant of Donald and Sally through their son William; our line of the family ended up in New Zealand. I am picking up on the research started by my Fathers cousin and would be interested in sharing any information on Donald and Sally and the generations before or after.
I have a "translated" copy of Donald's Berens River House journal which is fascinating reading and I think Dad's cousin has more journals from other posts held by Donald. There is only one mention of Sally in the journal I have saying that she trapped a fox.
You guys may have copies of these journals already but if not I would be happy to scan you what I have.
What I would be most interested in is any information or leads on Donald's parents through the parish records? I believe I read somewhere that he may have been born in Durness?
Kind Regards,
Hamish
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artlen
I am also a descendant of Donald and Sally. Their son William and his wife Catherine Anderson Sutherland were brought to Australia between 1856 and 1859, by his sister Isabella. They had a daughter Sally Wapisk in 1856 born in the UK. She married George Smith in 1985. I haven't been able to find much on the but both are buried in Lutwyche Cemetery Brisbane and I have photos of their Grave site. Still trying to get back to research and will seek a copy of his journal.
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Hello Artlen,
How are you?
Should that read 1885 when she married George Smith?
Where were they married?
Did they have children and if so what were their names?
I can try to check next time I go to the Qld Archives.
Regards Terry t
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Hi Terry T
Just received and email from Pam Jarret and she mentioned you.
I have their marriage as 1895, their first son, George Macdonald Weir Smith was born 12/12/1897 and second son, James Sinclair Sutherland was born 17/ 1/ 1902. I always wanted more info on them but just didn't get around to it.
Now we are in Bribie we hope to restart in the near furute
Regards Len
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Hello Len.
It's good to be in contact.
Pam is doing a lot of research and we have been in contact often.
Thanks for the information.
my e-mail is *
Regards Terry t
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Hello Len.
It's good to be in contact.
Pam is doing a lot of research and we have been in contact often.
Thanks for the information.
my e-mail is *
Regards Terry t
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Hi ya, my name is Helen,maiden name Sutherland. I live in NZ and am also a descendant of Sally Wappis and Donald Sutherland, through their daughter Jane. Janes daughter Jemima married a William Sutherland who was her first cousin. They came to NZ via Adelaide where Williams mother( Margaret McLeod) was, then on the NZ settling in Waimarama Hawkes Bay. William and Jemimas son Walter Lorne Campbell Sutherland is my great grandfather. I would love any information about Sally and her children. I have been interested in her story since I was a child.
My father has been researching the Sutherland family tree for years and still only has snippits of information on Sally.
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Hello Helen,
How are you?
I don't have much infomation on Sally. I believe her name is Wapisk. I am also a descendant of Donald and Sally. Their son William and his wife Catherine Anderson Sutherland were brought to Australia between 1856 and 1859, by his sister Isabella. They had a daughter Sally Wapisk in 1856 born in the UK. She married George Smith in 1985. I haven't been able to find much on the but both are buried in Lutwyche Cemetery Brisbane and I have photos of their Grave site.
Do you have a copy of Donald's journal?
Can you send some dates for your information.
terryt
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Hi Terry, No I dont have a copy of Donald journal, tell me what is in it. Sounds intriguing. Oh and Sallys name probably is Wapisk but for some reason I have always known her as Wappis. I will check with Dad on that!!
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Hello Helen,
It's a "translated" copy of Donald's Berens River House journal. A diary when he was a fur trader in Canada.
Sally is mentioned in it.
Too big to send as an attachment send e-mail info through personal message.
Regards,
terryt
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Hi Terry, No I don't have a copy of Donald journal, tell me what is in it. Sounds intriguing. Oh and Sally's name probably is Wapisk but for some reason I have always known her as Wappis. I will check with Dad on that!!
[Hello I have been following your contact with Terry on Sally Wapisk/Wapiss. I too am a decendent of her & donald via their daughter Isabella in australia. If you wouldn't mind I would like to share info with you both on her as I only have limited info. I have heard of Donalds journals but have not seen them. If you have any family stories on her I would love to hear them also if you wouldn't mind. My parents, grandparents & great grand parents on Isabella's side have all passed away so I have no one to ask for any info gathering so your assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thankyou for taking the time to read this, Yours Sincerly Sharayne Marshall /quote]
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Hello Helen,
It's a "translated" copy of Donald's Berens River House journal. A diary when he was a fur trader in Canada.
Sally is mentioned in it.
Too big to send as an attachment send e-mail info through personal message.
Regards,
terryt
HI Terry I have been following your contact with Helen on Sally Wapisk/Wappiss. I too am a descendent of Sally's via her daughter Isabella in Australia. I would love to share any info with you both on her & Donald although I only have very limited info. My oparents, grand parents & great grandparents on her side have al passed away so I have no way of gathering anything via them. So your assistance would be greatly appreciated. I too have heard of Donalds journals but have not seen them. If you have any old family stories I would love to here them. Thankyou for taking the time to read this Yours Sincerly Sharayne Marshall
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Hi Terry
I think the photo may have originated from other relatives in Australia, which would explain why it is known to you. :)
I am now living in England, but lived in Scotland till my early 20's. The family are currently planning a trip to Scotland in June and will be staying at Pier House in Brora, which was built by Donald Sutherland in the 1820's, (now a B&B), which I am looking forward too as I can spend some time in local research as well as an opportunity to visit with my Great Aunt on the way there, Perth, to pick her brains on the family history.
One item that has come too light is a photograph of a painting, which according to some letters from 1995, purports to be of Sally Wapisk. I am currently tracing this painting and information that pertains too it. If I can verify that it may be, I will put it up here.
Regards
Stuart
Hi Stuart have you had any luck in tracing the painting of Sally yet? If it is actually her & where it came from?
Regards Sharayne Marshall
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Hi everyone,
I am a also a descendant of Donald and Sally through their son William; our line of the family ended up in New Zealand. I am picking up on the research started by my Fathers cousin and would be interested in sharing any information on Donald and Sally and the generations before or after.
I have a "translated" copy of Donald's Berens River House journal which is fascinating reading and I think Dad's cousin has more journals from other posts held by Donald. There is only one mention of Sally in the journal I have saying that she trapped a fox.
You guys may have copies of these journals already but if not I would be happy to scan you what I have.
What I would be most interested in is any information or leads on Donald's parents through the parish records? I believe I read somewhere that he may have been born in Durness?
Kind Regards,
Hamish
Hi Hamish I too am a decsendent of Donald & Sally via their daughter Isabella in Australia. I have herad of the journals that you mention but have not seen them if you could scan them & send them to me I would greatly appreciate it my email is * My parents, grandparents & great grandparents on that side have all paaed away so I have no way to gather info via them. Thankyou for taking the time to read this yours sincerly sharayne marshall
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Hello everyone tracing Sally Wapisk & Donald Sutherland
I have a family tree done on ancestry.com if any of you are one it you are welcaome to go & have a look I am going to try & put it on here If possible for you. You all may have the info that I have but some may not I hope it will be helpful to someone
regards Sharayne Marshall
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I am descended from Donald and Sally Wapisk through their son William who married Catherine Anderson Sutherland and emigrated to Australia between 1856 and 1859.They settled at Inglewood in south-west Queensland and added to their Scottish family with the birth of my grandfather Macdonald Weir Sutherland in 1859.
They also had a daughter, Sally Wapisk in 1856 in Great Britain who came to Australia and married a George Smith in 1895.
I and others have tried to establish what happened to Donald's son Sinclair, also born Winnipeg River North America around 1816. So far to no avail.
Artlen
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Wapisk in Cree means "White Bear".
I think I have he answer to the origins of Sally Wapisk who married Donald SUTHERLAND. Check WHITE BEAR on my Red River Ancestry Website. Here's the link:
http://www.redriverancestry.ca/BEAR-WHITE-1780.php
For further discussion in this regard, please join the Forum of that website
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Thankyou stillborn for putting the web pages relating to Sally Wapisk on rootschat.
I read through it all & found it very interesting & informative. If ever you do get conformation on sally's parents I hope you will also put that up.
I find it very interesting as my grandmother always said on the rare occasion she had an Indian princess in her family tree. I which would in actual fact make sense if Sally Wapisk is indeed White Bears daughter.
I have no idea how she had this information. The only way I can figure it out is that it was passed down to her via her mothers & grandmother & father. They are the Weirs that married Isabella Sutherland daughter of Sally Wapisk & Donald Sutherland. Isabella came to Australia which is where I am. Our family all dismissed this notion that my grandmaother said as she sometimes added little bits to her stories on the odd occasion. However it is looking like we were wrong.
Thanks again shaz69
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Hi I believe I may be a descendant of sally wapisk and would be interested in making contact with any others, my name is Tim Peacock but I was born Michael Paul Hendren in 1965 to Kathleen Hendren nee Hamilton daughter of William and Enid of Brora. I was adopted at 18 months and grew up just north of London. I am currently living near Lymington in Hampshire so feel free to get in touch many thanks
Tim (user name timjp)
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The best way to reach other interested people is to post something on th Forum indicated at the following link. There you will see what other people are saying about the family too.
http://www.redriverancestry.ca/BEAR-WHITE-1780.php
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Hi All ;D
I am a descendant of Isabella Jane McKay Weir, daughter of Isabella Sutherland and John Mcdonald Weir. My line come down through Isabella's daughter Violet Mabel Porter. I would be very grateful for any information anyone is willing to share, especially on Isabella Sutherland's parents.
Many thanks :D :D
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Isabella was the daughter of Sally WAPISK and Donald SUTHERLAND (1778-1872)
His story at this link:
http://www.redriverancestry.ca/SUTHERLAND-DONALD-1779.php
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Thanks for the red river ancestry link. I had only just come across that site recently :)
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Hi
My grandmother was Esther Walker nee Sutherland. I grew up knowing about Sally Wapisk from a portrait painted of her but the name plate said Wapis or Wappis so I struggled to find any info about her. I'm loving all the info and links, thank you!
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Hello Fiona & welcome to Rootschat. Notification appears to have been turned off for this post. (including mine) As you can see, though, most have just been interested in this one family line. If you are only interested in this topic alone I suggest posting on The Red River Ancestry site (the pages where descendants can read & post messages)
https://www.redriverancestry.ca/rraForum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=104
https://www.redriverancestry.ca/rraForum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=49
If you wish to contact anyone else who's posted here on Rootschat, I suggest using the personal message system. First you have to post a reply once more. Then... Just hit the scroll under the person you wish to contact. Keep in mind that this is an old query, so contact may no longer be possible ie. email may no longer be valid. Please do not put your email address on any posts.
Happy Hunting!