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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Devon => Topic started by: alp on Wednesday 07 July 10 14:34 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find information about the husband of Annie Menham, who was Arthur Hill. They were married in Stoke Damerel in 1863 but he does not appear in the census for the years following the marriage so guess he was in the army. Can anyone help?
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if you want to trace him back, a good start would be their Marriage Papers, as well as showing his age & his job, it should reveal his Fathers name.
I see that in 1871 she calls herself an 'Officers Wife' .
Given where she's from and where they married, he could well be a Naval Officer?
1891 census might be the key - cant find any of the Family tho >:(
She's 'Head' in 1871, 1881 (West Ham with young son Herbert born Kensington) and 1901 in Hoole, Cheshire.
You could also see his 'occupation' in 1868 by getting Julia's Birth Certificate
Births Mar 1868
Hill Julia Rona I Stoke D 5b 361
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My money's on this lad:
1861 census - Royal Engineer Establishment Brompton Barracks, Gillingham Kent RG9; Piece: 480; Folio: 74; Page: 4
Arthur Hill 19 (c1842) Unmarried - Lieutenant, Royal Engineers. born Devonshire, Stockland.
Births Mar 1842
Hill Arthur Axminster 10 7
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Hmmmm that man finally shows up again in 1901, married to a woman 30 years younger with 2 very young kids.
Its the same man as seen in 1861, still linked to the Royal Engineers, now a retired Colonel.
His wife Dora, is Irish and I cant see a marriage in FreeBMD.
RG13; Piece: 1009; Folio: 128; Page: 3 Hampshire, Alverstoke.
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Thank you for all that, I have got his marriage certificate and, although difficult to read, I think he is in the Royal Marines. However, I cannot find any trace of him after the wedding so guess he must be abroad, but cannot find him in any of the military records. The Herbert referred to was my grandfather. Many thanks
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I'd think he'd have left the Marines by the time Herbert was born in Kensington 1875ish? Not likely to live far from a relevant barracks?
Then they were in West Ham, and finally in Cheshire - I'm sure 1891 would help ....
How about the youngest's Birth Cert (or was that Herbert ? ) was Arthur still in the Marines then?
Lost my bet then ...... :P
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I have got his marriage certificate and, although difficult to read, I think he is in the Royal Marines
forgot to ask if his Father is shown?
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Hello There...
Hope I am not gate crashing....
1891 census
4 St James Road , West ham , Essex
Annie Hill / wife / married / age 48 / born Plymouth
Julia Rosa Hill / Daughter / age 23 / born Stoke Damerel
Herbert Jas Hill / son / age 14 / scholar / born Kensington
RG12 1336 64
1891 census
12 Starkie Street Preston , Lancashire
Arthur D Hill / boarder / age 21 / Mechanic Telegraph Dept / born Plymouth
RG12 3441 11 15
JeannieR
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Classic Ancestry - lumped in with the Willshaws (giving the Head 2 wives :D )
Good find, but yet again the errant Arthur isnt at home. :(
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Me Again.....
What do yo think to this ?
1871 census
Battalion of Royal Marines, for Service on China Station. HMS Princess Charlotte, Hong Kong
Arthur Hill / age 33 / married / 2nd Captain / born Worcestershire
I have not , as yet located him on any other census.
I will PM you with some other info.
JeannieR
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Theres this lad in school in Worcs, with a brother - HO107; Piece: 2046; Folio: 128; Page: 15 Claines
Personally I think a combination of details from the Marriage Cert and possibly of young Herberts Birth Cert will help solve it (I'd like to see if Arthur was still an RM in 1876)
Same lad seems to be a Lieutenant of Marines in the Racoon (22 guns) at anchor under Mount Carmel - Coast of Syria in 1861.
RG9; Piece: 4440; Folio: 125; Page: 12
This must be him:
Births Jun 1838
HILL Arthur Worcester 18 491
but not a sign in the 1841 census :(
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Thank you for all your help. Can you tell me where you get your inforrmation re at school with brother, as I don't recognize the references. On the marriage cert his father is John but cannot trace his birth although it may be the one in 1838.
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On the original page, there is a Herbert Hill ( 14 or 19 ? ) also born Worcester, St Helen. Its only an assumption that its a brother I should have said.
If you plug in the PIECE, FOLIO and PAGE numbers with no other info in Ancestry, you'll see them in an establishment where they are Pupils / Scholars (cant remember offhand)
I really wouldnt put too much credence in this chap yet, its as much informed guesswork as my earlier chap who eventually resurfaced. Does have some excellent 'links' tho.
What about the Father John's occupation from the Marriage Cert. ?
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Hi.....
I think this is looking good . Arthur and Annie, did name one of their sons Herbert.
Also, could there be a significance with the name Devereaux, as this was Arthur 2nd christian name.
JeannieR
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Thank you for the info. The father's occupation is 'gentleman' - could cover a multitude of sins! I have now sent for his birth certificate and will wait to see what this says.
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final observation - I cant see an obvious candidate +/- 2 years of age born Worcester in 1881 or 1891 (altho its suprising the number of 'new' Arthurs that appear linked with Worcester).
But I wonder who Arthur Hill, the MARRIED Boarder is in Brighton in 1901 ?
RG13; Piece: 925; Folio: 75; Page: 36 Brighton, 47, Elm Grove
He was born 'Worcester', aged 63 (spot on) and an 'Inspector of Concrete for Tramways'
Good points JeannieR :)
Added: altho on looking further, might be the same chap in 1881 RG11; Piece: 246; Folio: 127; Page: 36 Islington, married to a Patience. He's a Supt Manager Lon St Tram Coy .....
By 1891 he has remarried to an Ellen (neé Enefer) from Danbury, Essex (same family, as oldest son born USA, New Jersey.
They are in RG12; Piece: 836; Folio 34; Page 9 Broadwater, Worthing, Sussex (not far from Brighton)
Arthur now states RETIRED MAJOR - HM Siramel ?? - Manager of a Public Company.
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Hi
Herbert, born 1837 , St Helens, Worcestershire, was Herbert JOHN Hill
He too , joined the Military.
On the 1881 census, he is described as a Late Captain , 7th Regt, Military Tutor / born St Helens Worcester
Residence is High Street, Wargrave ,Berkshire
RG11 1312 10 13
he moves to London, and is there in 1891 and 1901, 10 years later , he is in Shropshire.
Another possibility of course, is that Arthur did set up home with another lady. It was more common than we like to think. My own grandmother married, stating she was a widow, when in fact her first husband, was alive and well, and living round the corner , with his parents.....
I wonder if Arthur died abroad ? Will have a look
JeannieR
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Herbert John Hill (son of Arthur Hill and Annie Menham) was born in 1876 in Kensington and was my grandfather.
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In Scotland 1871 Source Citation: Parish: Kirkmahoe; ED: 2; Page: 4; Line: 12; Roll CSSCT1871_184
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Alp...
The Herbert John Hill, I was referring to, is I think your missing Arthur's brother, born 1837, and not your grandfather......
But I think we have hit the nail on the head, so to speak. It would follow that your great grand parents, might name a child after him....
There is no sign of your Arthur in 1911 either.
Annie and Julia, are living at Ventnor Terrace , Doxey, Staffordshire. Annie states she has :Private Means" Perhaps a Service Pension ?
I cannot find a death abroad, for your Arthur.
He is certainly a mystery man
Jeannie
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final observation - I cant see an obvious candidate +/- 2 years of age born Worcester in 1881 or 1891 (altho its suprising the number of 'new' Arthurs that appear linked with Worcester).
But I wonder who Arthur Hill, the MARRIED Boarder is in Brighton in 1901 ?
RG13; Piece: 925; Folio: 75; Page: 36 Brighton, 47, Elm Grove
He was born 'Worcester', aged 63 (spot on) and an 'Inspector of Concrete for Tramways'
Good points JeannieR :)
Added: altho on looking further, might be the same chap in 1881 RG11; Piece: 246; Folio: 127; Page: 36 Islington, married to a Patience. He's a Supt Manager Lon St Tram Coy .....
By 1891 he has remarried to an Ellen (neé Enefer) from Danbury, Essex (same family, as oldest son born USA, New Jersey.
They are in RG12; Piece: 836; Folio 34; Page 9 Broadwater, Worthing, Sussex (not far from Brighton)
Arthur now states RETIRED MAJOR - HM Siramel ?? - Manager of a Public Company.
I
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waiting with bated breath ::)
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Hi....
I must learn to cut and paste !!
I think our Arthur was a naughty man, and that the Arthur we found "married" to Patience and Ellen Ensfer is the man that Alp is searching for.......There is no record of a marriage for either.....
Annie MENHAM and Arthur Hill had children ......
Julia, who is with her mother on all census
Arthur DEVEREAUX Hill registered 1869 Plympton St Mary, Devon
Herbert John Hill......
The retired Major , also had the middle initial D which I suspect is for Devereaux
He and Ellen , have a son, with a indecipherable name, but on the 1911 census, it is Arthur DEVEREAUX Hill. His birth was registered at Lewes / September qtr 1887 / vol 2b page 183
You found Arthur on his own in 1901, Ellen is a visitor, with the children Cyril , Vera 1893 and Winifred 1897...
The son who was born in New Jersey 1879, Bertie, I think is Herbert again
Both Patience and Ellen, were many years younger than Arthur
Although he never married these girls (that I can see) it seems he deserted Annie, when he came out of the Services What do you Think ?
1911 he states he and Ellen have been married 25 years, he is 73, and was born Worcester. Spot on with everything .They are still in Sussex
Jeannie
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Pretty much my thoughts, thats why I went that far beyond 1871 following him - but hadnt got as far as formulating the total theory: also wanted Alp to get 1876 Herbert's Birth papers to clock Arthur's job at that time.
The son who was born in New Jersey 1879, Bertie, I think is Herbert again
vaguely recall he's Arthur* or Albert in 1881 Islington, if the latter, Bertie would also fit.
* Just looked - he's Arthur H. If H is Herbert, then Bertie fits as you say.
He and Ellen , have a son, with a indecipherable name, .......................... His birth was registered at Lewes / September qtr 1887 / vol 2b page 183
yes, Barcombe is in Sussex, not Essex, so the 1891 Enumerator could have sent us on a merry dance.
Good work - esp on the latest census :)
PS. It would be good to find him, his bro' and Father in 1841 !
I did find a John Hill marrying a Deveraux in Worcestershire - but twas in the early 18th C.
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I have just joined this site after searching for more details of my Great Grandfather Major Arthur Hill, and found this site / post after adding the Devereaux tag.
I can confirm that the Major was in the Royal Marines, and to my knowledge (to date) had at least 3 “families”, his absence from public records would be, according to press cuttings (Sussex Obituary, paper unknown, Photostat) due to living in France for Six years, Japan for eleven, he had worked at one point as the Manager of London Street Tramways.
His parents were John & Elizabeth (nee Hardwick), John was an extremely successful solicitor, the couple had 4 children Arthur, Herbert John, Elizabeth, and Frances.
Herbert John married Harriet Jones, in the tree I have complied I have no other Herbert John, so would be interested to know if there was another in the family, the Major named 2 of his sons Arthur Devereaux, and is also know to have called himself Arthur Devereaux dropping the Hill altogether, probably to lose a trail.
I have reason to believe that his first wife was in contact with the Major and knew of his “lifestyle” during his third marriage.
I would like to contact Alp, how do we do that?
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Hi P-Hill,
I was really pleased to read your posting re Annie Menham. Annie was my ggrandmother. One of her sons was Herbert John who was my grandfather. His daughter Dorothy Kathleen was my mother.
Yes, I too, have 3 women in his life. After Annie, there was Patricia who had one son to my knowledge, maybe, more. He was born in Amerivca and was also Arthur. He also had a lady called Ellen with whom he had 4 children. You probably know all this. One of Arthur and Annies other sons was Arthur Devereaux who was the grandfather of Graham Hill (racing driver). I would love to know which line you were from. If you are interested in seeing my family tree I can send you a personal message with more details.
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Hi Alp
Great to hear from you, it was late when I responded, looking back at my records I can see Herbert, he must have been the youngest with Annie.
I have a faded copy of the article following the Major death in 1917, I will forward to you, and yes I would love to see your family tree.
I am from the Arthur (Major) and Ellen “line, my grandfather must have know about the Major’s lifestyle, also used traditional family “Hill Family” names, my father’s middle name was Herbert, and my uncle’s was Arthur, my aunt was named Patricia!
I had guessed about Graham Hill’s connection as Devereaux is an unusual name; funnily enough one of my middle names is Graham.
There is other information but not for placing on the site, how do we make contact.
Regards
Paul
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Hi Paul
Thanks for all that - I will send you a Personal Message. Anne
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Hello Ann and Paul.....
Isn't it great when everything comes together ?
Do's this mean , that our detective work was correct ?
JeannieR
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Yes, I think, in most part it was. I had got most of the info but simply couldn't put it all together, so your help was invaluable. Many thanks. Anne
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Hi
I need some more help if possible, I am trying to track down the mother of Arthur Herbert Hill born 1878 in New Jersey, he shows up as the son of Ellen, but she would have to have given birth at 12 or 13, there is also another son of the Major Arthur Hill named Cyril, there was a "wife" called Dora, is this a possible match?
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Mort 29
Hmmmm that man finally shows up again in 1901, married to a woman 30 years younger with 2 very young kids.
Its the same man as seen in 1861, still linked to the Royal Engineers, now a retired Colonel.
His wife Dora, is Irish and I cant see a marriage in FreeBMD.
RG13; Piece: 1009; Folio: 128; Page: 3 Hampshire, Alverstoke.
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Paul
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Hi Paul
1881 census
23 Tremlett Grove, London, Middlesex
Arthur Hill / head/ age 42 / born Worcester / Superintendent and Managet, Son St Train Company
PATIENCE Hill / wife / age 21 / born Retford ,Nottingham
Arthur H Hill / son / age 2 / born New Jersey . British Subject.
I am still checking , but the only Patience , of the correct age , born Retford , bears the surname Litchfield, and appears to be at home with her parents , Jasper and Esther in 1881
JeannieR
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Hi JeannieR
I know that Tremlet Grove features a lot in the family history, Major Arthur and Patience registered the birth of a son "Sydney Montague Hardwick Hill" (makes a change from Arthur), in 1883 I have a copy of the birth certificate that stated Patience's maiden name was Booth, Sydney was a sail maker in the Navy and died in service in 1915.
Problem is my Grandfather is the Arthur Herbert Hill known as Bertie born in New Jersey, I don't know if this Birth Place is true, when a census was taken back then did the public have to provide documents to prove, could be a red herring.
The other problem with Arthur (Bertie) is this, I dont have his birth certificate, I do however have his marriage certificate for his first marriage to Doris Aline LeCren they married in 1911, she died in 1923, on the marriage certificate it states his father as Major Arthur Hill, my Grandmother was Winnifred Nellie Hill, birth certificate states father as Major Arthur Deveraux Hill, so yes they look like half brother and sister.
My father Paul Herbert Hill tried in vain to find a birth certificate for Bertie without success, others in the family refused to discuss, they have all passed on now, (my father last year), the more I review the documents and tree the more obsessive it becomes, would love find out who Bertie’s mother was, Bertie used to talk of a half brother called Cyril. Both Arthur and Cyril pop up on a census living with the Major and Ellen, who have their own children, one of which is also named Arthur.
My suspicion is that whilst married to Annie Menham he stated a relationship with another unknown woman, possibly the mother of Arthur and Cyril, he also started a relationship with Patience, the unknown and Patience found out what he was up to and left the Major holding the babies so to speak, except they are not babies at all, therefore he gets his new “Wife” Ellen to take the Bertie and Cyril in, or the unknown mother died.
A number of people/family have suggested that he wasn’t really Atrhur Herbert Hill at all and that he made the name up, but I have traced him with a number of records, military, and wills, when he married Doris LeCren they lived at Findon Tower Sussex, a record of a Arthur Herbert Hill awarded the Victory Medal in WW1 has the address of Findon Tower Sussex, so he’s real, another census shows him living with George and Jessie Booker at Ecclesden Manor on his Own Means, born in NJ USA again I know he was a left a fortune by two families including Jessie, don’t know why though.
Someone holds the key to this or a record exists, just can’t find it, it doesn’t bother me that they may have been half brother/sister, just want to finish the search.
Paul
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Still stuck!
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Hi Paul.....
I will have to re-aquaint myself with the story , I am afraid.
I have just found, what I think is "your" Arthur Herbert Hill, born 1878 in America on the last census. He is a theatrical worker and living in Yorkshire.
I will have a look, and see what else I can find.
With Best wishes
JeannieR
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Hi JeannieR
Thank you, the issue is tracing his "real mother" all the census records show him as born New Jersey USA, British Subject, can't work out how to obtain that record, or where to start, Arthur Hill is a very common name.
The census in 1881 has him living with Patience Hill & the Major), at the age of 2, in 1891 he is living with Ellen Hill & the Major, with other siblings: Sydney and Cyril, these are not the children of Ellen, she is to young, plus I have a copy of the Sydney's birth certificate naming Patience Hill (nee Booth) and Major Arthur Hill as the parents.
Regards - Paul
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Paul......
As a matter of interest, who else apart from Jesse Booker, left your Arthur Herbert , money , and when.......There may be a clue here
JeannieR