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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: ashleighn19 on Sunday 04 July 10 07:29 BST (UK)
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Hi there,
I'm looking for any information on John Crawford, b. approx 1817 in Lanarkshire. I believe he married Janet(t) Taylor in May 1838 and had at least one child, George, b. 1843.
Any links or ideas of where i could find parish records would be fabulous.
Thanks
Ash
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just bumping it up in case someone who knows something missed it.
thanks
ash
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Hi Ash :)
Any idea of the Parish in Lanarkshire John was born in?
What his occupation was?
Where did they marry in May 1838 ?
Where was George born?
Did they all remain in Scotland (ie died there)?
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hey Ambly,
Thanks for your reply.
I believe John was born in Lanark in 1817, and married in Eastwood, Lanarkshire.
George was born 1843 in Pollokshaws and they all immigrated to Australia aboard the "Macedon" in 1849.
I believe John was a weaver, and they all died in Australia.
Thanks
Ash
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Scotlands People the online pay per view site for Scottish Records has the marriage details in the OPR records
11/05/1838 CRAWFORD JOHN JANET TAYLOR EASTWOOD
SP wrongly moves Eastwood into Lanarkshire as it was within Renfrewshire.
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
Checking the 1841 census index for Eastwood shows only one couple John & Janet Crawford who are living in Eaglesham but they are a bit older than one might expect (both are listed as 35 which could mean 35 - 39 in the 1841)
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Hi Ash
Could this be your Crawford relations living at 40 Ferguslie in Paisley Low, Renfrewshire, in the 1841 census, given that John's occupation was weaver?
John Crawford, age 25, Cotton Handloom Weaver, born in Renfrewshire
Jean Crawford, age 20, born in Renfrewshire (Jean being a diminutive of Janet in Scotland)
John Crawford, age 3, born in Renfrewshire
Mary, age 1, born in Renfrewshire
Did your John Crawford die in Casino, NSW?
Cheers,
Rodeo
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Hey Rodeo,
I don't think so. My John died in 1892 in Riverton, South Australia.
Thankyou for trying though :)
Falkryn, I've got that marriage record from ScotlandsPeople. Thankyou so much!! any ideas where i can find who may be John's and Janet's parents, so I can find their birth details too?
Thanks
Ash
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any ideas where i can find who may be John's and Janet's parents, so I can find their birth details too?
Unfortunately not with any certainty.
Do you know the names of any other children as the naming pattern may give a clue (many families but not all, followed the traditional Scots naming pattern for their children)
One possible for Janet (bearing in mind that Jean,Jane & Janet are interchangeable) and given the Eastwood connection
Jean Taylor born 24th March 1817 parents Andrew Taylor and Margaret McLean - living in Eaglesham
BUT there is unfortunately no way to confirm this at the moment and the links are fairly tenuous.
PS what links John with Lanark ?
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Hey Falkyrn,
I am unsure about any other children, the only thing I have guiding me with this family so far is the hints I got off ancestry... Lanark could be completely wrong, but it was a starting point.
John definatly died in Australia, and I am working on getting details from his grave which perhaps may be helpful in getting an idea of when he was born, and possibly where.
If you have any ideas on where we could go from here, let me know.
Ash
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Without further details to confirm anything found it is unfortunately extremely difficult to go any further.
Although Lanarkshire and Renfrewshire are adjacent counties and in Australian terms the distances between Lanark and Eastwood are small it was not common for couples to be from such different areas although it did happen . In addition Crawford is a relatively common surname and records of that period aren't always very helpful in proving links with either siblings or indeed parents.
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Hi
The passenger list for the Macedon 1849 is the "Lanark" link....
http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/australia/macedon1849.htm
John CRAWFORD 32, Shepherd, Birthplace: Lanark, B Index 339/3
Jane (Taylor) 30
George 6
where maiden name of wife is indicated, it has been included in the given name column within ( )
(the B-index column indicates individuals who may be found in that index, with corresponding reference number for further research)
On looking at the list as a whole, it would appear "Lanark" probably means "Lanarkshire"; there are a lot of passengers born "Lanark"
It may be worthwhile following up the B-Index angle? It sounds as if he may have been an Assisted Immigrant?
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/RFW/Eastwood/index.html
EASTWOOD, parish, containing Pollockshaws And Thornliebank towns and Shawlands village, on border of Renfrewshire, near south-west side of Glasgow
Eastwood was a parish in Lanarkshire and Renfrewshire between 1892 until 1975. Before 1892 it was in Renfrewshire.
http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/relationships.jsp?u_id=10141655&c_id=10107260
http://www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/
Cheers
AMBLY
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If you go to http://www.maproom.co.uk/maps/brit/scotland.jpg you can see a map of the counties as they were in 1886 which would have been very similar to the 1840 era.
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Hi guys,
I am getting hold of John's grave picture today/early next week, so I should be able to find some definate dates there, but in the meantime I was searching on familysearch and i found 4 John Crawfords born in Lanark about 1817 that may be him, is there any way of working out which one is him?
there is:
John Crawford b. 4th Nov 1816 in Barony to parents William + Elisabeth
John Crawford b. 8th June 1816 in Govan to parents David + Elizabeth Wardrop
John Crawford b. 7th Aug 1816 in Govan to parents John + Margaret Porter
John Crawford b. 12th Oct 1815 in Govan to parents Stephen + Agans Lochead
any suggestions appreciated.
also, Ambly, what do you mean the B index angle?
ash
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Hi guys,
I am getting hold of John's grave picture today/early next week, so I should be able to find some definate dates there, but in the meantime I was searching on familysearch and i found 4 John Crawfords born in Lanark about 1817 that may be him, is there any way of working out which one is him?
there is:
John Crawford b. 4th Nov 1816 in Barony to parents William + Elisabeth
John Crawford b. 8th June 1816 in Govan to parents David + Elizabeth Wardrop
John Crawford b. 7th Aug 1816 in Govan to parents John + Margaret Porter
John Crawford b. 12th Oct 1815 in Govan to parents Stephen + Agans Lochead
any suggestions appreciated.
also, Ambly, what do you mean the B index angle?
ash
Sadly at the moment there is no way to confirm any of these as your John - normally if they had followed the naming pattern and presuming that George was their first born son George would have been John's fathers name.
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Hi there,
I got a picture of John and Janet's grave the other day, and sadly it gives very little information.
it reads simply:
IN MEMORY OF:
CRAWFORD
Janet, Died 1. 1. 1891
Aged 71 years
John, Died 20. 5. 1892
Aged 77 years.
So without actually giving birth dates we know that John was born somewhere between June 1814 and May 1815, which means none of the ones i found on familysearch.
There are also no other Johns around that time. :( Any ideas where else I could look?
Ash
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Hi Ashleigh
Perhaps you should have another look at the 1841 census I cited, which you immediately dismissed. What makes you so certain they aren't your Crawfords? You now know, from the graves, that the dates fit (as well as the names and John's occupation). Ages were often rounded in the 1841 census.
If they followed the Scottish naming pattern, John Crawford's father was named John and Janet's (Jean's) mother was called Mary.
Cheers,
Rodeo
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Hey Rodeo,
I thought that the John Crawford you pointed out was not the right one as I know that my John died in Riverton SA and not Casino. Also John and Janet as far as I know only had one child, George. Unless the Mary mentioned on the census died before they immigrated to Australia?
Are you sure that theJohn you mentioned died in Casino?
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Hi Ashleigh
I merely asked if your John Crawford died in Casino in connection with an immigration record I found on Ancestry -- no relation whatsoever to the 1841 census entry.
If John and Janet were married in 1838, it's highly possible that they had children before George (whom you say was born in 1843).
Did you obtain their death certificates from Victoria BMD online?
Cheers,
Rodeo
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(the B-index column indicates individuals who may be found in that index, with corresponding reference number for further research)[/i]
From the wording (above) regarding the "B Index 339/3" notation on the passenger list cited, it seems to me there is a possibility of further information being available about them, held perhaps in the Archives - and possibly to do with them being Assisted Immigrants.
I don't know how you would go about finding out, but perhaps you could contact the SA Archives for advice?
http://www.archives.sa.gov.au/
I also wouldn't focus too much on John being born "June 1814 and May 1815" by basing this soley on his recorded age at death.
Ages on death certificates can be and often were, wrong - sometimes out by a year or 2, sometimes by much more. At this stage, I would say you couldn't dismiss any possibile candidate born between say, 1812-1820.
Assisted immigrants also were apt to doctor their ages in order to place themselves within official or percieved age-criterias
Cheers
AMBLY
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Oops! Sorry, Ashleigh. I meant to say South Australia BMD online here:
http://www.familyhistorysa.info/births-marriages-deaths/
Cheers,
Rodeo
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hey guys,
Ambly can you please explain to me what the b-index is? I don't quite get it.
Rodeo, I can't find the census record.. you cant possibly send me a link can you?
Also, I haven't purchased the death certificates... only because they are so bloody expensive in SA.. in victoria or NSW they give you a smaller piece of info that you can buy for like 99c... but SA charge you $49 each.
Thanks
Ash
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I've sent you a PM.
Cheers,
Rodeo
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In my family tree i have the surname Crawford who married into the McKendrick family i wonder if the your Crawford line might be related to my Crawford line that married into the McKendrick line
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It seems I am a good few years late to this thread.
I'm a decendent of the aforementioned John Crawford too. I've been looking into him as well and some to come up against the same sort of road blocks as others who've written here.
I think the 1815 comes from the Death Certificate (which via my uncle I have a copy of) where his age is given as 77 in 1892. The certificate seems to be issued in 1980 so unsure if it's fully correct.
In Aldine history and ships manifest 1817 would be the birth year. My sense is 1817 is correct but can't be sure.
The certificate doesn't really say alot more than what's already known. Died of "senile decay"...so old age I guess.
There are a few aspects of his life I havent been able to work out yet. Janet's death year prior and births in the family are mentioned in multiple newspapers but Johns there is nothing.
A curious aspect to that is all notices family posted said "please copy Glasgow papers" so there was some ongoing connection there.
Also Georges birth, can't find a record of it anywhere. There's some guy born roughly same time in what I believe is the wrong part of the country and parents names aren't correct.
As others noted can't pin them down in the census. The one with kids could be them but then the children either passed away or were left behind in Scotland. Tried to find death records for those names but no luck finding anything definitive.
Like mentioned in this thread there are candidates for Johns birth etc and some I could rule out by finding them in census post Johns 1849 emmigration. So I have a couple ideas. Ie parents James Crawford and Jean Christie. B 1817. But no way to confirm.
I've done a bigY DNA test and this also didn't give anything conclusive. I am a direct match to another Crawford who's ppl emmigrated to the US in the 1830s but from Ireland. I've spoken to the person involved and their family story was they were scottish til they found docs in the US where he gives place born as Dublin and cant go much further.. So whilst there is a definite link to our Crawfords it's likely a generation or two before where either can trace.
I think the B list thing refers to ppl listed in a biographical index. I don't know what that will really mean but I can't find it online. When I'm back I Oz next I might have to see if a library has it.
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I think the 1815 comes from the Death Certificate (which via my uncle I have a copy of) where his age is given as 77 in 1892. The certificate seems to be issued in 1980 so unsure if it's fully correct.
It just means that what you have is a copy made in 1980 of the original document that was created in 1892.
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Ah OK makes sense.
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Thought i should update this incase someone else looking into this family stumbles upon this thread, as I myself have done. As others have found there are limited original, confirmed sources for anything in Scotland. Ie Georges birth or John, Janets birth, 1841 census details (some on ancestry have ppl who can clearly be found in 1851 census which means they arrent the right people) are all either unknown or maybe missing?
There are 2 documents relating to John and Janets 1838 wedding. 1 is the certificate available via Scotlands People (SP) that mentions their names and Johns occupation – Cotton Warper.
What confirms that these are the right people (and that Janets assumed maiden name- Taylor, is the correct one) is the second document. It’s a personal family possession (not mine) whats been photographed and uploaded to ancestry etc. It mentions the same names along with some others. 2 McIntyres as parish clerks. When you look these 2 up they are attached to the Eastwood Parish church but also as parish clerks who recorded things more widely than just their own congregation. The 3rd name on that certificate is what gives more interesting information- “married by me- Finlay Stewart”. He is NOT related to the Eastwood parish church (COS) but the Pollokshaws Burgher Church. So a separate church has done the marriage but its been reported and recorded at the local parish.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=894393.9
The church F Stewart was at first split in 1799 . The offshoot is available in SP under Other churches>Pollokshaws Associate. The naming of these churches and their splits is confusing because theyre similar and kept changing. But, I came across reference to a Burgher church burning down in 1847. This was the offshoot, not the original church.
Finlay Stewart was the minister of the Original church from 1810-1841. The records of this church are available in SP under other churches>Pollokshaws East Free. They only recorded baptisms so the marriage isn’t in these records. If you search births with this filter and for the last name Taylor you can find lots of people born in the right time period with the parents names being George Taylor and Mary Patrick. One of their children, born in 1819 is- “Jennet Taylor”. This baptism would’ve been performed by F Stewart. There is no John Crawford born at the “right” time though in these records. There are John Crawfords in same record but much later or earlier. So, either he is not himself born as part of this congregation or he was under a different first name. Ive started trying to make a family tree of all of those Crawfords born in Pollokshaws but they all seem to have a Scottish history past 1849.
After F Steward died the church split again. The new offshoot was called Pollokshaws United Original Succession. Its records aren’t in SP. They are in the NRS in Edinburgh. However, they do not include any baptisms or marriage. Just the church organizing committee minutes etc. Ive looked at these records and there are multiple mentions of John Crawford. Snr and Jnr. I have no way of proving if they are the right people or not. The fact though that the split occurred in 42 and that there are no birth records for this congregation in some way gives a plausible reason why there aren’t any birth records that I can find for the birth of Janet and Johns son George in 1843- if they remained in this area after marriage. That they named their Australian farm “Pollok Farm” suggests their connection was more than just a place where they stayed for a bit at the time they married..
The same church also had a congregation list for 1858 (after our Crawfords 1849 emmigration) and there are no Crawfords on that list. So I suspect they were a part of the congregation that doesn’t have any birth records but its just a suscpicion. Unless I can find a baptism list for that congregation that would hopefully show Georges birth in 1843. The church eventually joined the COS in 1956 and merged with a nearby congregation , which also seemingly is missing records- so im hoping to trying and hunt something down… somehow.
In my NRS visit I also looked at the Burghess roll for Pollokshaws. Burghess roll is as I understand it qualified tradespeople. Not quite knowing the “Warping” profession I was curious if it showed up there. There were no Crawfords listed there. I ran out of time but I came across reference to a Pollokshaws Weaving Society but the records for that weren’t online and were held in a collection offsite so couldn’t get to see those. Next time.
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oh, and i see i earlier posted some names as my candidates for Johns parents. James Crawford and Jean Christie. Unfortunately ive since ruled that out. Got better at searching Scotlands People and found a death certificate for that John Crawford.
Found out the post 1855 deaths show parents names (you can include mothers maiden name in the search) so found a John C with Jean Christie as mum, right age, passing away in Scotland well after our John C was in Australia.
Back to the drawing board on that one.