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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Banffshire => Topic started by: Darwin on Saturday 03 July 10 19:29 BST (UK)
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Hello all
One of my ancestors is Ann Gordon.
Scotland's People OPR comes up with her marriage as follows:
Parish of Kirkmichael and Tomintoul
James Fleming, Grange, Keppoch & Ann Gordon, St Bridget both parties in this Parish were married 10th January 1833
Her death certificate says her father was Charles Gordon (farmer) and her mother was Jessie Gordon (MS Cameron).
Census returns mostly record that she was born in Kirkmichael around 1813 . The family were Roman Catholic.
The problem is that the Charles Gordon who lived at St Bridget's (at that time) married Elspet Stuart in 1816 and had a daughter Lillas (Lillias). No reference to a daughter named Ann or a previous wife.
Any ideas anyone?
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Few things to consider:
1) who signed the death certificate for Ann?
it is not unknown and indeed can happen often, that person signing made a mistake in the details they gave.
2) 1841 Census does indeed have Charles and Elspet as most likely group. Lillias on that would seem to have a twin.....did you find his record too? Charles and Elspet are close in age, so, although not impossible for it to be otherwise, more likely that this is a first marriage.
3) There is a younger Charles Gordon in the Kirkmichael area in 1841, in a household where there are Camerons too......may be nothing, but might do no harm to look at that one too.
4) Did you rule out that James Fleming's mum might have been a Jessie Cameron - have seen instances on death certificates where the husband's mother's name was inadvertently given instead of the wife's mother's name.
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A twin for Lillas? Where did you find that?
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I don't trust the death cert entirely - it was registered by her son in law and he was pretty elderly himself.
Her marriage entry definitely says she was Ann Gordon from St Bridgets (which was a farm owned by Gordons) and most census returns say she was born in Kirkmichael around 1813 ish.
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...over the page.....Charles Gordon, age 22....apparently same household.
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Yes I wondered if the entry on the death certificate for her mother was in fact her mother in law, who was a Janet Cameron.
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...over the page.....Charles Gordon, age 22....apparently same household.
That's the daughter Lillas's husband
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...aha...so the m-i-l was a Cameron......well, quite poss Janet was known as Jessie.
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...I was looking at a transcript, so didn't see relationship. So, husband....then a Gordon married a Gordon?
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...I was looking at a transcript, so didn't see relationship. So, husband....then a Gordon married a Gordon?
Yes Lillas Gordon married a Charles Gordon (possibly a cousin)
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...aha...so the m-i-l was a Cameron......well, quite poss Janet was known as Jessie.
Yes it could have meant her MIL - did you say that this wasn't uncommon - ie to name the MIL as the mother?
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Something I just thought of - the marriage entry for Charles and Eslpet is 1816 is in the church at Kirkmichael - they were RC so is it possible that they were married previously in the RC chapel but that wasn't recognised so they had to marry again in the established church?
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I have instances in my own Scottish research where persons signing death certificates have done such, or even given a combination of part mother's name/part m-i-l's name, or otherwise. Have also found mistakes in fathers names at times too. It really does depend on what the person signing knew of the deceased, and even then, given emotions at time, was still possible that they could mix up the info (especially if they could not read/write themselves and check what registrar had entered for them).
This site speaks of an 1828 and an 1836 Census in Kirkmichael (maybe by church ?).....perhaps worth contacting site owner for advise as to where they gleaned such info:
http://www.linleyfh.com/oursecondsite-p/p522.htm
also, another page from same site has some interesting info on area:
http://www.linleyfh.com/oursecondsite-p/pi6031.htm
I really have no idea if Catholic couples were required to undertake a marriage in the established Parish Church in timescale.....perhaps another member can help on this point.
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Many thanks for your help and also for the links - I'll try there and see if anything turns up - if it does, I'll post back here.
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Hi Darwin
Have you thought to check the Will & Testament entry for Charles Gordon on SP to see whether there is any reference to likely daughter Ann:
Charles Gordon: 26/11/1851 ESQ., FARMER AT SAINT BRIDGET IN THE PARISH OF KIRKMICHAEL @ BANFF SHERIFF COURT - Ref: SC2/40/14
Later entry likely for son in law, also Charles Gordon in 1877.
Also, have you checked on the RC baptism register on SP to see who shows as sponsors on the baptisms for the children of Ann Gordon and James Fleming? I think I saw 6 entries showing for baptisms showing for them between 1833-50.
Do you know the names of Charles and Elspet's mothers to see whether that gives you any clues (might not be possible for Charles with his likely death in 1851).
Monica
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Thanks Monica
I'd already looked at both the wills and there's no mention of Ann.
I followed up your suggestion of looking at the RC records as I hadn't searched those before - I think they've been added since I was last on Scotland's People.
None of James and Ann's children are sponsored by Charles Gordon or his wife but interestingly, Charles' daughter Lillias' baptism was sponsored by James Fleming of Keppoch, who later became Ann's father in law.
The farms of St Bridget and Keppoch are neighbours.
I have a couple of other leads I'm following at the moment and I'll post anything of interest I find.
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Something I just thought of - the marriage entry for Charles and Eslpet is 1816 is in the church at Kirkmichael - they were RC so is it possible that they were married previously in the RC chapel but that wasn't recognised so they had to marry again in the established church?
No. That was never necessary. You could be legally married without going anywhere near a church. All that was necessary was a declaration before witnesses that you were married, and a RC ceremony was perfectly valid.
The Church of Scotland was supposed to keep a record of all marriages and baptisms, including RC, Episcopal, and dissenting ones, but this didn't always happen in practice, and there are many missing from the records.
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Could Ann Gordon who married James Fleming have been a younger sister or stepsister of Charles Gordon who married Elspet Stuart?
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Could Ann Gordon who married James Fleming have been a younger sister or stepsister of Charles Gordon who married Elspet Stuart?
It's possible but this link records her father as Charles. http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/subjects/subject_people_report_view.asp?REF_ID=NM145269
I've requested a copy of that entry in the Catholic marriage register and I'll report back when I receive it.
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Could Charles' father also have been Charles, then? Have go got a death cert for him?
I've requested a copy of that entry in the Catholic marriage register
Is it not available on Scotland's People to download? I thought they'd put all the RC registers on SP?
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Could Charles' father also have been Charles, then? Have go got a death cert for him?
I've requested a copy of that entry in the Catholic marriage register
Is it not available on Scotland's People to download? I thought they'd put all the RC registers on SP?
Only the baptisms so far unfortunately.
Charles's father was John Gordon and I haven't found any brothers of his named Charles. It's quite a pickle!
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Charles's father was John Gordon and I haven't found any brothers of his named Charles. It's quite a pickle!
Sounds like it, indeed!
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Not helped by Charles having died in 1851!
Monica
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It's driving me a bit loopy but it might turn out to be quite interesting though, as if Charles Gordon of St Bridget is indeed Ann's father, it would mean I'm descended from the infamous Jacobean "Old Glenbucket", John Gordon the Laird of Glenbucket who sold his (relatively small) castle to gain funds to raise an army. After Culloden, he went back to his farm (St Bridget's at Tomintoul) and hid, while the Duke Of Cumberland's men searched for him in order to hang him. He was already an old man but he escaped and died in France as he couldn't come home. All his remaining land / assets were taken but they left his family with St Bridget's, which I think they had to rent from the Duke of Gordon.
His eldest son John stayed at the farm and died in 1753
John's eldest son William took it over, followed by William's eldest son John and John's eldest son Charles, who might be Ann's father (looks like he might not have married her mother though!)
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Sounds like you have done your research on St Bridget at Tomintoul :) Just out of interest, if you do have the research on Charles' line (I wasn't sure if you did know his parentage although I have seen the reference to John, "Old Glenbucket"), what was the name of Charles' mother?
Do you know who Elspet Stuart's mother was?
Monica
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Sounds like you have done your research on St Bridget at Tomintoul :) Just out of interest, if you do have the research on Charles' line (I wasn't sure if you did know his parentage although I have seen the reference to John, "Old Glenbucket"), what was the name of Charles' mother?
Do you know who Elspet Stuart's mother was?
Monica
According to my research, Charles' mother was Lillias McHardy and Elspet Stuart's father was William Stuart of Ballantruan and her mother (his wife) was Elspet Cameron.
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So the name Ann for a daughter for Charles sits nowhere at present except connected to a first wife :-\
Monica
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So the name Ann for a daughter for Charles sits nowhere at present except connected to a first wife :-\
Monica
I think it's likely that he didn't marry Ann's mother (who might have been called - according to the death cert - a version of Jessie Cameron eg Jean, Jane, Janet). Ann called her first daughter Jean and her first son Charles (which makes sense of her parentage according to her death cert.) but I have yet to find a link to the name Ann as a reason for her own name.
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I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that Charles had a first short marriage before he married Elspet Stuart and, as such, Ann was a legitimate daughter of Charles...how to prove it though :-\
Have you made any enquires as to the state of Parish Registers for the period before 1816? There are often gaps in the registers which create black holes! Even though Charles Gordon was RC, as you have seen, his marriage to Elspet was noted on the OPRs, likely due to his position within the community.
Monica
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Update:
I just received a copy of the marriage entry in the Catholic records, which reads
James Fleming lawful son of James Fleming Keppach and of ... Cameron and Anne daughter of Charles Gordon St Bridget (Prot) having been regularly proclaimed three successive Sundays at the Parish Kirk and at the Catholic Chapel were married by me in the Chapel the tenth day of January eighteen hundred and thirty three years in the presence of Robert Mcgregor Delavorar and Robert Fleming Keppach and others
Donald Carmichael
(Carmichael was the Catholic priest)
So Anne was definitely the daughter of Charles Gordon of St Bridget (still don't know for certain who her mother was and it looks like Charles hadn't married her mother as she isn't described as his lawful daughter)
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That's a great result for you Darwin. You have now the confirmation that Ann was the daughter of Charles :) Still the question mark as to who was her mother. Agree with you regarding the missing word 'lawful' and the likelyhood that parents' weren't married.
Monica
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Hi Monica
Yes it was good to see the record and know who her father was. As for the mother - no idea really because the one recorded on her death cert doesn't seem to exist. I can find no record of a marriage for Charles Gordon pre his marriage to Elspet Stuart and the omission of the word "lawful" in Ann's marriage entry almost certainly means that Charles hadn't married her mother. However, Ann does seem to have lived at St Bridget's as that's where she was living when she married (according to the OPR entry).
Looking at the Status Animarum for Tomintoul in 1828, at St Bridget's, I noted that Charles isn't there (although his wife is there as Mrs Gordon, "wife of Chas" (that would be Elspet Stuart) and also a daughter (that would be Lillas). Charles' mother is also there at St Bridget's - named as Lillas McKardy
I suppose that Charles' absence from the Status Animarum isn't surprising as he is recorded as a protestant on Ann's marriage cert. but he was baptised a Catholic and both his parents (John Gordon of Glenbucket and Lillas McKardy) were recorded as Catholics.
Any ideas why he would be considered a Protestant?
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Darwin, would be pure guesswork from me. From what you say, even with this family's RC roots, he may have attended Presbyterian services and not been close to the RC church and as such his name was not included on the Status Animarum, although the rest of his family were on this. Hard to be definitive.
Monica
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I would be careful about laying too much weight on the absence of the word 'lawful' in James and Anne's marriage entry. If every other entry in the marriage register describes the parties as 'lawful son/daughter of ....' then it is reasonable to suppose that someone not so described is illegitimate. But if none of the other entries actually says 'lawful', you cannot make that assumption.
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Darwin, would be pure guesswork from me. From what you say, even with this family's RC roots, he may have attended Presbyterian services and not been close to the RC church and as such his name was not included on the Status Animarum, although the rest of his family were on this. Hard to be definitive.
Monica
Yes it's tricky - on Ann's marriage entry he has (Prot) after his name, which I found out was an abbreviation of Protestant. That, coupled with his absence on the Status Animarum is very puzzling, given his RC baptism and his RC parents. Ann was also recorded as (Prot) in some of her children's RC baptisms too. Her husband was RC.
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I have been following your posts with great interest as I am researching in this area too.
Donald Carmichael, whom you mentioned, was the priest in this parish from 1808-1838. The new Catholic Church in Tomintoul was completed in1839, just after he departed but while it was being built he conducted baptisms etc. at Cults, where he also farmed. Can you tell me how you got information from the Status Animarum? I think that could be my next step through my Tomintoul tangle!
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Hello; I am interested in this thread due to the following names
Fleming and Mchardy
I have Robert Fleming (or Fleeming) married to Margaret Mchardy (or McCardie), Kirkmichael, Banff in 1758. their daughter Jane, ( Margaret) 1767-1857 married , Malom ( Malcolm), Clark, 1802 . children included Christin, Elspat and Margaret. Sorry for all the second names in brackets but depending on what certificate I look at the names do change. Family ended up in Crathie And Braemar, Aberdeen.
ring any genealogy bells for anyone?? thanks. Donna
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I have been following your posts with great interest as I am researching in this area too.
Donald Carmichael, whom you mentioned, was the priest in this parish from 1808-1838. The new Catholic Church in Tomintoul was completed in1839, just after he departed but while it was being built he conducted baptisms etc. at Cults, where he also farmed. Can you tell me how you got information from the Status Animarum? I think that could be my next step through my Tomintoul tangle!
I got the information from here: https://secure.moray.gov.uk/eshop/Moray-Heritage-Centre-p-1-c-3.html
They have a microfilm copy of the Status Animarum for Tomintoul for the years 1824, 1828 & 1836. I asked for specific information on certain names and places.
There are also Catholic baptism records on Scotland's People for that period and I found quite a few baptised by him. Good luck!
In addition to calling it the Chapel, I have also seen his farm Cults referred to as "The Priest's Room" as it seems he conducted much of his work there at that time, while the new one was being built. As an aside, Donald Carmichael's nephew Archibald married Christian Gordon, another descendent of Old Glenbucket. Her brother became a priest as did one of her sons, also Donald. There is an interesting exchange of letters between great uncle and nephew here:
http://www.euppublishing.com/doi/abs/10.3366/E0020157X08000152
Who are you researching as I have a ton of records now and might have something helpful.
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Hello; I am interested in this thread due to the following names
Fleming and Mchardy
I have Robert Fleming (or Fleeming) married to Margaret Mchardy (or McCardie), Kirkmichael, Banff in 1758. their daughter Jane, ( Margaret) 1767-1857 married , Malom ( Malcolm), Clark, 1802 . children included Christin, Elspat and Margaret. Sorry for all the second names in brackets but depending on what certificate I look at the names do change. Family ended up in Crathie And Braemar, Aberdeen.
ring any genealogy bells for anyone?? thanks. Donna
I don't have a Robert Fleming at that time in my batch. My earliest Fleming ancestor is James, born about 1767, who farmed at Keppoch, Tomintoul. Unfortunately, I haven't found his baptism so I don't know about his parents.
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Many thanks for posting links, Darwin53. I have been a regular on the Moray Libindx but did not realise they had copies of the Status Animarum. I also have a large collection of downloads from Scotlands People of baptisms in the area.
My main area of research has been the Stuarts/Stewarts, stonemasons in Tomintoul for at least three generations but in this process I have developed a wider interest in the history and people of the area, including Donald Carmichael. I was aware of "Letters to my Nephew" and was really pleased to be able to access them on line. Thank you!
At the moment I am trying to discover the generation before William Stuart (mason) and Ann Riach, who married at Cults in 1818. I have her parents as Elspet Grant and Donald Riach,Tomachlaggan, from her death certificate, but having difficulty with William. According to census information he seems to have died between 1841 and 1851. A Charles Stuart and Mary Smith in the Laggan of Croughly have a son William baptised in 1798 but there is also a James Stuart (a mason) and Janet McKenzie in Tomintoul in the 1780s. As William names his first son Peter perhaps I need to look for a Peter Stuart??
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This trail becomes more and more interesting as I follow it!
I've now made a definite link between Ann and her father Charles and he's the son of John Gordon of Glenbucket, who lived at St Bridget (Charles was his bastard son according to the baptism record but his only son - only child it seems - so he gets to carry on the farm at St Bridget and his mother Lillias McHardy lived there too as recorded in the Status Animarum). Lillias is accorded the status of Glenbucket's wife in a Victorian monument in Kirkmichael church but I haven't found a record of a marriage so the inscription might have been incorrect - no matter - Charles was recorded as his son.
John Gordon of Glenbucket's grandmother was Ann Lindsay, daughter Sir Alexander Lindsay of Evelick (a baronet). Taking his trail back, I find he's directly descended from Alexander Lindsay of Evelick, Bishop of Dunkeld. He's directly descended from Alexander Lindsay, 2nd Earl of Crawford, whose mother was Elizabeth Stewart, whose father was Robert II Stewart, King of Scotland, whose grandfather was Robert I Bruce, King of Scotland.
Now at this point, I laughed out loud! Well you would, wouldn't you!
It seems hilarious to me but one of my Scots Aunts has been telling me for years that her mother always said she was directly descended from Robert the Bruce. We've always just taken it as something lots of people say - family folklore etc but it looks like she might have actually been basing it on evidence!
What do you folks think? Does this look like evidence to you? I have some links I could share - I think my evidence needs testing rigorously...
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I picked up this thread doing a general search and thought I could add a little to the picture for you.
The James Fleming you mention living at Keppoch is my great by 5 grandfather. His daughter Janet was the spouse of Charles McGregor who was the Tacksman of a farm named Delavorar which is close by Keppach (or Keppoch as it is often written).
Re:the marriage record you have of the marriage between James Fleming and Ann Cameron.
James' father James Cameron was married to Janet Cameron (the missing name). Their children in order of birth were Janet, Jean (Jane), James, Elizabeth (Elspet), Angus and Robert.
The Robert McGregor of Delavorar is the younger brother of Charles (above) and therefore BIL of Janet and Robert her brother. Charles died in 1831 and Janet in 1889. Their four children were born in the 1820s so would have been first cousins of the children born to James and Anne Gordon.
I haven't done a focused search on the Camerons and Flemings (yet) so have no other information for them before that noted here. I am currently transcribing BMDs for Tomintoul in an effort to untangle all the related families (as well as the various spellings e.g. Fleeming !!). I may get there one day!
I hope this adds a little to your picture of the community that was heavily interrelated! In fact we may find that Janet Cameron (my great by 5 grandmother) was another Glenbucket relative as ties between families were often cemented through marriage. There is also McHardy links by marriage through Charles' grandmother. Her sister married a McHardy.
Darwin, I am also curious about the photo of Lily Mcgregor you use. Any chance this lady married into the same McGregor family ?
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Lovely news for me (and my cousin!).
I knew James' mother was called Janet Cameron from other sources so the blank is just a reflection of what the record looked like. I have lots of records of the Flemings, including all the children's baptisms etc so I'm happy to share what I have that you might not have yet.
However, I don't have the other information that you have about those McGregors or Camerons. I haven't followed my McGregor line back very far because it ends with a reputed father called John McGregor and he could be one of many.
I'd be very interested in anything you find about the Camerons as we haven't followed Janet Cameron back any further.
I also have a photo of James and Janet's gravestone that I took in Tomintoul catholic churchyard. I'll upload it later today as they are your ancestors too.
Lovely to "meet" you. :)
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Here it is - you should be able to download it and zoom to read it - let me know if you can't as I have a transcript.
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Great to meet you as well.
Well I got a bit of a thrill when I read your reply. Your John McGregor may bring us a few generations closer than you realise. It's going to send me trawling throught the copious amount of McGregor genealogy records I have. You see the Charles McGregor I mentioned had 3 sons, James , John and Peter. I decend from James and I have traced Peter and am in touch with his decendants. I have a great pile of information on 'Johns' but like you was never 100 per cent sure which one was the right one. Any information you can share would be GREATLY appreciated as it will narrow down the possibilities. I am very happy to share any information that will help you as well as spend the time chasing the John connection, if there is one.
Picture just came in thank you
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Yes I have your email address copied down and will contact you.
You'll need to edit your post and take it out though as posting email addresses (or addresses / phone numbers) isn't permitted here.
You can share those things via Personal Message once you have made 3 posts here.
Looking forward to sharing some info with you! :)
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Sorry I saw my previous post after sending a query; so modified it to apologise instead. ! Donna
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Hello,
Re Charles Gordon;
I came to a standstill re my ancestors from Tomintoul; I was looking for a John Gordon and Jean Cummin- these names were wrong and their names are now Peter Gordon and Jane Cumming; relatives who never met grandparents assume everyone was called John and their accent affected spelling.
One of Peter Gordon's sons was a Charles; and I have found info on a site dedicated to Grants and Gordons of Kirkmichael (also Cameron) the spelling of the farms they lived on kept changing, it was called Fordmouth but has been recorded as Fuiedmuth, also Gaullrigg where my Grant family lived has been recorded as Gawlairg and other variations.
I have found another Charles Gordon born at Fordmouth, in 1766, probably a brother of my ancestor Peter.
I was told about these Gordons coming over from Aberdeenshire with General Gordon of Glenbucket by someone in the Tourist info office.
ARE ANY OF MY gORDON ANCESTORS CONNECTED TO YOURS? i THINK ALL THE MEN NAMED cHARLES WERE NAMED AFTER bONNIE pRINCE cHARLIE.
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hi , im john macgregor , grt grt grt grt grandad was alexander mcgigor lived in ballentomb farm he was there in 1841 census, he was married to grace cameron .
i have been to visit the farm , its still there ,the house has no roof but very funny to be were i think ?? of corse my macgregors started .
charles the next in my line married amelia anderson born 1818 ish at ballentomb farm .
if you need anything else ?? or maybe you know more than i .
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in the 1841 census , alexander mcgrigor lived on a farm called ballentomb, just about 3 miles from tomintoul .
alexander was 60 who had married grace cameron 50, son charles age 20 . dau ann, age 15 .son alexander age 10. jean dau , age 10 .
im sure they had more kids ie john , who was older
im looking to find out who was alexanders father
anyone who can help me plz
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According to my research, Charles' mother was Lillias McHardy and Elspet Stuart's father was William Stuart of Ballantruan and her mother (his wife) was Elspet Cameron.
You wouldn't by any chance know which Elspet Cameron married William Stuart? I am trying to find the one that married William Blair but there were two born in 1769, one to Donald Cameron & Janet Fife/Fyfe 23/5/1769 and one to Alexander Cameron & Margaret McQueen 12/11/1769. Could one of these ladies be wife of William Stuart?