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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Lisa B on Friday 02 July 10 03:10 BST (UK)
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Hi I am after the parent and family details of Samuel Sugden born 1800/1801 Southgate Middlesex England. Samuel married Emma Linsel 22 November 1848. Thanks heaps
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Hi
Here are the details from the marriage certificate...
St Paul Edmonton
Enfield
22nd November 1848
Samuel SUGDEN Of full age Widower Esquire?? of Hornsey Middlesex Father = Samuel SUGDEN Esquire
Emma Elizabeth LINSELL Of full age Spinter of Bow?? Southgate Father = John LINSELL Builder
Witnesses were William Thomas LINSELL and Austin?? LINSELL
Will see if I can find a Samuel born to a Samuel
Cheers
Karenlee
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Hi
According to the Census entries that I can find for Samuel, it would appear that he was born in Yorkshire
Cheers
Karenlee
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Familysearch Pilot search shows
Baptism Register
St Peter Leeds
Yorkshire England
Samuel SUGDEN
20th May 1798
Father = Samuel SUGDEN
No mother listed
Cheers
Karenlee
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Baptism Register
St George Bloomsbury
Camden
Emma Elizabeth daughter of John and Judith Charlotte LINSELL of Princes Street St George the Martyr. Born October 29th 1826 Baptised November 26th 1826. Father's Occupation Plumber.
Karenlee
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Thanks so much for the info Karrenlee. What are the chances that Samuel Snrs wife details are on Samuel Jnr Marrage certificate ? Thanks again Lisa
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Hi,
A possible marriage for Samuel snr.
Samuel Sugden marries Sarah Hutchinson on 26 Mar 1793 at Saint Peter, Leeds, Yorkshire.
Sharon
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Hi
1841 census HO107 663/4 folio 53
Crouch End Hornsey
Saml Sugden 40 Warehouseman not born Middlesex
Elizabeth Sugden 15
Emily Sugden 11
Mary Sugden 7
John Sugden 65
children all born Middlesex as is John
Samuel is living in the same place with the same occupation in 1851. The older children on the 1851 census give a birthplace of London not Hornsey Middlesex which is the youngest child's birthplace. It might help to try to track down the daughters' marriages to find them on censuses for a more definite place of birth and possibly at least one of their baptisms to confirm their mother's name.
Regards
Valda
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Thanks so much for the info Karrenlee. What are the chances that Samuel Snrs wife details are on Samuel Jnr Marrage certificate ? Thanks again Lisa
Hi Lisa
Karen has given you the 6 names that appear on the marriage entry: bride, groom, 2 fathers and 2 witnesses. Mother's name are generally not recorded on certificates for marriages that take place in England & Wales.
Dawn
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Have you got the family in 1861 census? RG9/797/66
Jennifer
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Hi thanks for your help. I think the Samuel married 1793 to Sarah might be the Samuel I'm looking for. Because they had a son in 1798 also called Samuel as above. Don't think the warehouseman is the right one because Samuel and his son were both listed as Gentleman.
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There is a marriage for a Samuel SUGDEN to an Elizabeth MORSE at St Martin in the Fields Westminster on 11 May 1819, which might be his first wife.
St Sepulchre Holborn
1822 May 22, Maria, d/o Samuel & Elizabeth SUGDEN, No 5 Angel Court, Artificial flower maker
1824 Aug 22, Frederick, s/o ditto
1826 Jun 7, John, s/o ditto
St Pancras Church
1826 Jan 25, Elizabeth, d/o Samuel & Elizabeth SUGDEN, Angel Court, Flower maker, born 1825 Dec 18
St James Clerkenwell
1830 Sep 19, Emily, d/o Samuel & Elizabeth SEBDEN, Chapel Court, Flower maker. born 1830 Aug 20
1832 Oct 14, Louisa, d/o Samuel & Elizabeth SUGDEN, Rodney St, Artificial florist, born 1832 Aug 24
1833 Oct 20, Mary Ann, d/o ditto, born 1833 Aug 22
1839 Oct 20, Louisa Jane, d/o Samuel & Rachel SUGDEN, 31 Rodney St, Florist, born 1839 Jun 13
Ages match with the children in 1841, and the two elder daughters with Samuel and new wife Emma in 1851. John in 1841 also is 15, not 65.
It is the same Samuel and Emma who had Albert Sydney in 1864.
Ian C
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When Maria SUGDEN married William WATSON at St Mary Aldermanbury on 19 Jul 1841, she names her father as Samuel SUGDEN, Warehouseman.
There is a burial for an Elizabeth SUGDEN on 5 Nov 1843 at St James Clerkenwell. Abode St Mary Aldermanbury, and aged 55, which could be the Elizabeth in the baptisms.
Can't see her in the 1841 or Maria. Maria must have been there as she was married only a few weeks later.
Ian C
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I am also interested in this line. By an chance would Samuels father be William Sugden married 1734?
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Hi
Gentleman as a term used on certificates, does not necessarily describe middle class men only. For working class men it can often be used when they were older. Since there were no pensions for ordinary people (except for very few occupations such as the army, police and the post office) most working class people continued to work until they dropped or were to incapacitated to do so. They had to work because they had no other means of support. Working class men who had amassed enough money over the years to put it into some sort of fund that paid them enough to live on, could stop work in their last few years. Just like gentlemen they did not have to work, hence that is what they called themselves. Children sometimes had a tendency to elevate their fathers to this status on their marriage whether they truly were or not.
Is this the Samuel Sugden junior you are interested in who on his marriage gave his father as Samuel gentleman?
1861 census RG9 791 folio 76
Crouch End Hornsey
Saml Sugden 33 Head Married Warehouseman St Pancras Middlesex
Frances Sugden 22 Wife Married Exeter Devonshire
Saml E Sugden 8 Son Hornsey Middlesex
Frances Sugden 6 Daughter Hornsey Middlesex
Alfred H Sugden 4 Son Hornsey Middlesex
Walter G Sugden 2 Son Hornsey Middlesex
Fred W Sugden 4 Months Hornsey Middlesex
plus 2 servants
From the 1841 census (and the 1861 census for Samuel junior) for Samuel Sugden senior in Crouch End his children were (relationships not given on the 1841 census)
Elizabeth born circa 1822-1826 (confirmed as daughter on 1851 census)
Samuel born circa 1828 Pancras (confirmed on marriage certificate and 1861 census warehouseman living in Crouch End)
Emily born circa 1831 (confirmed as daughter on 1851 census)
Mary born circa 1843 (quite an age gap may not be a daughter)
In 1851 all their births are given as Hornsey but this may not be the case.
The florist Samuel Sugden is a different Samuel Sugden who may not have married the woman/women he was associated with after his wife died - though Mary Ann Sugden aged 27 is staying with a Margaret Rawlinson as her niece on the 1861 census.
1841 census HO107 664/14 folio 36
BrunswicK Grove Islington
Margaret Rawlinson 72 Artificial florist
Rachal Rawlinson 30 Artificial florist
Louisa Sugden 2
all born Middlesex
A Samuel Sugden was buried at St James Pentonville 27th November 1841 aged 72, of Rodney Street
1841 census HO107 662/3 folio 33
Rodney Street Clerkenwell
Samuel Sugden 70 Florist born Middlesex
Sarah Sugden 30 Florist not born Middlesex
living in the samehouse with the Watts family John and Ann and children
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda. No not the right Samuel Sugden. My Samuel was born 1798 Leeds Yorkshire then moved to Southgate Middlesex. Samuel had two marrages but my ancestor was Emma Elizabeth Linsell. As I understand the floral business was run by Samuel, Samuel and other family members. I think there were a few Samuel's. My Samuel later went in to the fur business etc... in Southgate. His place of residence was Oak Lodge Southgate. Lisa
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Hi
Samuel Sugden the florist gives his birthplace as Middlesex on the 1841 census. This might be inaccurate but there is a baptism in Middlesex that would fit with him and the area of London he lived in in the C19th.
SAMUEL SUGDEN
Birth: 23 MAY 1770
Christening: 24 JUN 1770 Saint Leonards, Shoreditch, London
Father: SAMUEL SUGDEN
Mother: ELISABETH
Why do you think your Samuel born in Leeds Yorkshire circa 1800 was the son of this Samuel and not another based in Leeds where the surname is more common?
SAMUEL SUGDEN
Christening: 20 MAY 1798 Saint Peter, Leeds, Yorkshire
Father: SAMUEL SUGDEN
possible siblings
WILLIAM SUGDEN
Christening: 16 FEB 1794 Saint Peter, Leeds, Yorkshire
Father: SAMUEL SUGDEN
JOHN SUGDEN
Christening: 01 MAY 1796 Saint Peter, Leeds, Yorkshire
Father: SAMUEL SUGDEN
SARAH SUGDEN
Christening: 22 NOV 1801 Saint Peter, Leeds, Yorkshire
Father: SAMUEL SUGDEN
HANNAH MARIA SUGDEN
Christening: 09 JAN 1803 Saint Peter, Leeds, Yorkshire
Father: SAMUEL SUGDEN
possible marriage
SAMUEL SUGDEN
SARAH HUTCHINSON
Marriage: 26 MAR 1793 Saint Peter, Leeds, Yorkshire
Regards
Valda
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Hi again
Thank I have misunderstood you some were along the line. The list of names you have posted last is correct. Lisa
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Hi Lisa B,
I'm looking into my ancestor Sam who was the flower maker, and a cousin of mine once mentioned the fur business but I never managed to fins out any more. I was wondering where you heard about it?
Do keep in touch.
Phil Sugden
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Hi my ancester is Samuel Sugden the flower maker and Fur business owner. The line I am talking about here in this post is the same family line.
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Hi,
Thanks for the reply.Samuel was my gt.gt.gt,etc, grand uncle, who I know was a maker of artificial flowers. But I'm not sure about the fur connection - can you remember where you heard about that trade? I can't find any records of a Sugden fur company?
Cheers
Phil S.
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Hi I first picked it up in the 1841 Census records. So after a bit of research I found the business was called Sugden Son and Nephew from memory. It was my Grt Grt Grt Grandfather Samuel who started the fur part of the business in Middlesex after he left Leeds Yorkshire. Prior to that the Sugdens were in to flowers. From what I know the Sugdens produced very good quality furs and feathers for upper society. Samuel was a very wealthy man. So he must have been good at the trade. Samual's father was also called Samuel.
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Hi Lisa,
Thanks for the reply. Are you a Sugden or a Linsell, as I noticed you mentioned that line as well? My direct family through my family runs out in Dorking, where I can't find a reference to the father's death. On one census he's alive, then 10 uears later his wife is a widow but I can't find any reference to his death in any of the registers for the decade in between, which is strange. Unless he died abroad I suppose, which I've only just thought of!
Phil
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Hi do you mean surname?
My Grt grandmother was a Sugden and her name was Gladys Mary Sugden born Middlesex. Her father was Albert Sydney Sugden, his father was Samuel Sugden (The fur man) who married Frances Elizabeth Linsell. Who was your ancestor how was he nephew to Samuel? I might have some info that can help!
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Hi
1891 census RG12 620 folio 119
34 Church Road Richmond Surrey
Albert S Sugden 26 Head Married Living on own means Southgate Middlesex
Annie Sugden 20 Wife Married Living on own means Moulton Lincolnshire
Gladys M Sugden 1 Daughter Moulton Lincolnshire
plus 1 domestic nurse also from Moulton
12th December 1864 St Paul, Edmonton
Albert Sidney Sugden parents Samuel and Emma Elizabeth
1871 census RG10 1342 folio 32
Oak Lodge Chase Road Edmonton
Samuel Sugden 70 Head Married Merchant Feathers at Aldermanbury Leeds Yorkshire
Emma E Sugden 44 Wife Married City Middlesex
Annie Maria Sugden 18 Daughter Southgate Middlesex
Kate Eleanor Sugden 9 Daughter Southgate Middlesex
Albert Sydney Sugden 6 Son Southgate Middlesex
Edwin Percy Sugden 4 Southgate Middlesex
plus 4 servants
Marriages Dec 1848
Linsell Emma Elizabeth Edmonton 3 127
SUGDEN Samuel Edmonton 3 127
1871 census RG10 1336 folio 13
Oakfield Villa Crouch End Hill Hornsey
Samuel Sugden 42 Head Married Merchant London
Frances Sugden 43 Wife Married Exeter Devon
Samuel E Sugden 18 Son Warehouseman Hornsey Middlesex
Frances Sugden 16 Daughter Hornsey Middlesex
Alfred H Sugden 14 Son Hornsey Middlesex
Walter G Sugden 12 Son Hornsey Middlesex
Frederic M Sugden 10 Son Hornsey Middlesex
Ada E Sugden 7 Daughter Hornsey Middlesex
Jessee Sugden 5 Daughter Hornsey Middlesex
plus 3 sevants
Marriages Dec 1852
BACK Francis Clerkenwell 1b 668
SUGDEN Samuel Clerkenwell 1b 668
and Dorking
1841 census HO107 1081/7 folio 18
Chopstick Place South Street Dorking Surrey
Wm Sugden 47 Labourer not born Surrey
Sarah Sugden 47 not born Surrey
Sarah Sugden 12 born Surrey
1851 census HO107 1598 folio
Church Street Dorking Surrey
Sarah Sugden 58 Head Widow School Mistress Dame School Wakefield Yorkshire
Sarah Sugden jun 20 Dorking Surrey
13th May 1859 Dorking Cemetery
Sarah Sugden aged 65
This burial would fit for William for age
St James, Pentonville Islington 31st March 1844
William Sugden aged 50 Rodney Street
Deaths Mar 1844
SUGDEN William Clerkenwell 3 101
same address as the previously given 1841 census and burial
1841 census HO107 662/3 folio 33
Rodney Street Clerkenwell
Samuel Sugden 70 Florist born Middlesex
Sarah Sugden 30 Florist not born Middlesex
living in the samehouse with the Watts family John and Ann and children
A Samuel Sugden was buried at St James Pentonville 27th November 1841 aged 72, of Rodney Street
The other Sugden burial at the same church
St James, Pentonville 5th November 1843
Elizabeth Sugden 55 years St Mary Aldermanbury
Deaths Dec 1843
SUGDEN Elizabeth London 2 140
1841 census HO107 722/2 folio 5
16 Aldermanbury St Mary Aldermanbury City of London
Maria Sugden 15 born in county
Elizth Sugden 50 not born in county
Adult ages, those over 15, ususally rounded down to the nearest 5 on the 1841 census
22nd May 1822 St Sepulchre Holborn
Maria Sugden parents Samuel and Elizabeth, No 5 Angel Court, father's occupation Artificail flower maker
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda thanks for all the info. Thats right Gladys was born in Linconshire. Samual moved to Southgate and had some children there.
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Hi Valda and Lisa B !
Thanks very much for the info on Dorking! I don't know how I missed William dying in London - I spent hours trawling through the BMD records for the decade between 1841 and 1851, but that was quite a few years ago when I did it. I'll have to go back through my notes and try and piece it all together! Thanks again! I'll try and get the death cert for William although that won't give info on his father, etc.
Lisa - I guess that makes us cousins? How many times removed I don't know!! I'll dig out my notes as I can't quite remember how William fits in the Sugden lineage, although I know that Samuel was my ( gt, x ? times ) uncle so I'll look it all up and let you know.
Cheers
Phil S.
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Hi
His age (on burial and from the 1841 census) would be compatible with this baptism already given on a previous post
WILLIAM SUGDEN
Christening: 16 FEB 1794 Saint Peter, Leeds, Yorkshire
Father: SAMUEL SUGDEN
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda and Lisa B,
I've gone through my old notes ( I was doing all this before the internet family history stuff got off the ground!) and we're talking of different Williams - I did indeed have the death date of William Sugden Sen. who maried Sarah in Leeds. But the William, who was in fact my great-grandfather , was born in 1825 in Dorking to William and Sarah Sugden, living at West Street, Dorking. I have a copy of the baptism record. Incidentally, brother John Sugden and wife Martha, also have a son Frederick on the same page, and they are living either in the same house or the same street, West Street!
William Sugden ( my gt.g/father) turns up in Chapel Street London ( near Rodney Street) on the 1861 census with wife Harriet ( nee Fulcher) with 2 very young children, Elena and Frank, but not yet Arthur, my grandfather, who came along in 1865. By this time, they are living in Charterhouse Street, London.
When Arthur gets married in 1887, the marriage cert has the father, William Sugden, as deceased, and it is THIS William of whom I can find no further trace, as I can't find him on the 1881 census, nor can I find a record of his death.
Sorry I led you to the wrong William, but if you can help on the right one, I'd be very grateful!!
Cheers
Phil S.
It's this William for whom I can find no record of death
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Hi Lisa B,
Do you know anything about a Margaret Rawlinson who pops up all over the place connected with Sam Sugden Sen ? She' s often found living with a member of the family, but I never managed to trace her roots!
Phil
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Hi
Only two children with William and Harriett on the 1861 census
1861 census RG9 195 folio 59
89 Chapel Street Clerkenwell
Willm Sugden 36 Head Married Artificial florist Dorking Surrey
Hurritt Sugden 26 Wife Wesrminster
Frank Sugden 1 Son Clerkenwell Middlesex
Clara Sugden 3 Months Daughter Clerkenwell Middlesex
plus 2 servants
Children's baptisms and death registrations
St Mark, Myddelton Square 23rd January 1853 born 16th December 1852
William Fulcher Sugden parents William and Harriett, 89 Chapel Street, father's occupation artificial florist
Deaths Dec 1856 SUGDEN William Fulcher Clerkenwell 1b 341
same church and same details
22nd January 1854 born 28th December 1853
George Sugden
Married 1876
same church same details
9th December 1855 born 9th November
Benjamin Sugden
Deaths Jun 1857 Sugden Benjamin Clerkenwell 1b 317
same church same details
26th July 1857 born 3rd July
Harriett Sugden
Deaths Dec 1858 Sugden Harriet Clerkenwell 1b 430
same church same details - William's occupation artifical flower maker
12th September 1858 born 25th August
Frederick Sugden
Deaths Dec 1858 Sugden Frederick Clerkenwell 1b 430
same church same details
27th November 1859 born 27th October
Frank Sugden
Deaths Jun 1861 Sugden Frank Clerkenwell 1b 357
Holy Trinity, Kentish Town 12th May 1861
Clara Ann Sugden parents William and Harriet, 89 Chapel Street Pentonville North, father's occupation, artificial florist
Deaths Mar 1863 SUGDEN Clara Clerkenwell 1b 447
no more baptisms but possibly Samuel is another child
Births Mar 1863 SUGDEN Samuel Clerkenwell 1b 598
Deaths Sep 1863 SUGDEN Samuel Clerkenwell 1b 416
1871 census RG10 421 folio 11
22 Hayne Street St Sepulchre City of London
William Sugden 47 Head Married Artificial florist Dorking Surrey
Harriet Sugden 36 Wife Married Artificial florist Chelsea Middlesex
George Sugden 17 Son Warehouseman Clerkenwell Middlesex
Arthur Sugden 5 Son St Sepulchre Middlesex
James Sugden 2 Son St Sepulchre Middlesex
Emily Sugden 8 months Daughter St Sepulchre Middlesex
Births Dec 1865 Sugden Arthur Fuller W. London 1c 34
possible sibling
Births Dec 1866 Sugden Mary A E W. London 1c 31
Deaths Dec 1866 Sugden Mary A E 0 W. London 1c 37
Births Jun 1868 SUGDEN James Lloyd W.London 1c 30
Married 1888
Births Sep 1870 Sugden Emily London C. 1c 25
1881 census RG11 374 folio 9
22 Hayne Court St Sepulchre City of London
William Sudgen 58 Head Married Artifial florist Dorking
Harriet Sudgen 48 Wife Married Artifical florist City London
Arthur Sudgen 15 Son City London
James Sudgen 13 Son City London
Emily Sudgen 10 Daughter City London
plus 7 lodgers
Deaths Jun 1881 Sugden Harriet 47 London C. 1c 13
The only possible death registration for William in London would be this one
Deaths Dec 1884 SUGDEN William 61 Poplar 1c 406
Regards
Valda
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Hi
1851 census HO107 1500 folio 231
23 Pulney? Street Islington
Margaret Rawlins 82 Lodger Middlesex
Louisa Rawlins 12 Lodger Middlesex
Deaths Dec 1852 Rawlinson Margaret Islington 1b 11[35]
Louisa Rawlins is presumably the Louisa Sugden with Margaret (and daughter Rachel?) on the 1841 census
1841 census HO107 664/14 folio 36
BrunswicK Grove Islington
Margaret Rawlinson 72 Artificial florist
Rachal Rawlinson 30 Artificial florist
Louisa Sugden 2
all born Middlesex
1839 Oct 20, Louisa Jane, d/o Samuel & Rachel SUGDEN, 31 Rodney St, Florist, born 1839 Jun 13
Regards
Valda
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Thanks a million, Valda, that's opened up a lot of stuff to look at!
I did find once what I thought were the parents of Samuel, born in 1770 in Shoreditch, St Leonards - and they are Samuel and Elizabeth Sugden who in 1766 in St Stephens Coleman Street had a daughter Elizabeth, followed by birth of John in January 1768 in St Leonards Shoreditch, their address given as Worship Street, followed by Samuel ( again Worship Street) in 1770 also in St Leonards, finally Fanny in September 1772 in St Botolphs without Aldersgate, born 27 August.
These are likely to be the siblings of Samuel I think?
Thanks again!
Phil S.
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Hi I remember seeing your line in my research but didn't know that's who you descended from. Samuel and Elizabeth ............... are on my line they may also be on yours. My line goes down throught their son Samuel who married sarah Hutchinson, then down to Samuel Sugden who married Frances Elizabeth Linsell.
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Didn't your Samuel marry EMMA Elizabeth Linsell- not Frances???
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Hi
Just to slip this in to complete the Rawlinson census connection
1861 census RG9 150 folio 93
2 Landseer Road Islington
Margaret Rawlinson 59 Head Unmarried Nurse to formerly artificial flower maker Shoreditch Middlesex
Mary Ann Sugden 27 Niece Invalid } Kept by father St Pancras Middlesex
plus 1 house maid
Deaths Mar 1870 Sugden Mary Ann 36 Islington 1b 237
Regards
Valda
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Hi yes you are right. I was in a hurry and I am also working on another line who has a Frances, so now I have Frances on the brain.
Yes her name is Emma Elizabeth. She was actually Samuel's second wife. She was quiet a lot younger than Samuel.
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Hi Valda
Mary Ann was from Samuels first marrage I think from memory. I didn't think the Rawlinsons were related I thought they may have been employees. So turns out she was a nurse! I wounder if Mary Ann had a long term illness? Lisa
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Hi
If Rachel Rawlinson and Samuel Sugden had a child together then a little more than employee. This Margaret was probably Rachel's sister. Doutful she was actually a nurse more a carer/nurse.
Regards
Valda
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O I discounted the Samuel and Rachael thing as a different Samuel!!
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Hi
1839 Oct 20, Louisa Jane, d/o Samuel & Rachel SUGDEN, 31 Rodney St, Florist, born 1839 Jun 13
There was only one Samuel known to be living in Rodney Street around this time. His son Samuel's first wife Elizabeth didn't die until 1843 so it is less likely to be him and his own son Samuel would have been to olde, leaving only Samuel baptised 1770.
Regards
Valda
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O!! I don't have a death date for his wife Sarah I wounder if it was after she died. I don't have any other children for Samuel 1770 other than Samuel.
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Hi
previous post
Samuel Sugden the florist gives his birthplace as Middlesex on the 1841 census. This might be inaccurate but there is a baptism in Middlesex that would fit with him and the area of London he lived in in the C19th.
SAMUEL SUGDEN
Birth: 23 MAY 1770
Christening: 24 JUN 1770 Saint Leonards, Shoreditch, London
Father: SAMUEL SUGDEN
Mother: ELISABETH
Why do you think your Samuel born in Leeds Yorkshire circa 1800 was the son of this Samuel and not another based in Leeds where the surname is more common?
SAMUEL SUGDEN
Christening: 20 MAY 1798 Saint Peter, Leeds, Yorkshire
Father: SAMUEL SUGDEN
possible siblings
WILLIAM SUGDEN
Christening: 16 FEB 1794 Saint Peter, Leeds, Yorkshire
Father: SAMUEL SUGDEN
JOHN SUGDEN
Christening: 01 MAY 1796 Saint Peter, Leeds, Yorkshire
Father: SAMUEL SUGDEN
SARAH SUGDEN
Christening: 22 NOV 1801 Saint Peter, Leeds, Yorkshire
Father: SAMUEL SUGDEN
HANNAH MARIA SUGDEN
Christening: 09 JAN 1803 Saint Peter, Leeds, Yorkshire
Father: SAMUEL SUGDEN
possible marriage
SAMUEL SUGDEN
SARAH HUTCHINSON
Marriage: 26 MAR 1793 Saint Peter, Leeds, Yorkshire
William may be the William in Dorking. John was probably with Samuel junior in Hornsey on the 1841 census.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda,
Thanks for the Rawlinson info...helps clear the mystery, although I looked through my notes and found this reference to an 1851 census report for 17, Freeling Street ( didn't keep ref. nos!!):
Margaret Rawlinson .Head. Art florist. 42 born Shoreditch.
Mary Ann Rawlinson .Niece. Unmarried. 18. born St.Pancras.
Mary Ann Rawlinson.Niece.Unmarried.17. Ditto.
There are 2 Maragret Rawlinsons...mother and daughter presumably, one was art. florist, the other a nurse?
I'm having trouble keeping these names together! Mary Ann Sugden ( born 1833) was living with Samuel Sugden in Hornsey on the 1841 census, so how would she become Rawlinson in 1851 and yet be unmarried? Curiouser and curiouser...!
Phil S.
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Hi Lisa,
I seem to remember there is a corner of a chapel in St Paul's church, Winchmore Hill, which Samuel dedicated to Emma when she died. You might want to have a look if you are not too far away.
Cheers
Phil S.
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Hi
There could of course be two illegitimate sisters, the one whose baptism has been found
1839 Oct 20, Louisa Jane, d/o Samuel & Rachel SUGDEN, 31 Rodney St, Florist, born 1839 Jun 13
with her grandmother and mother on the 1841 census (as Sugden) and with her grandmother on the 1851 census as Rawlins but probably Rawlinson. If so the two would be the daughters of either Samuel Sugden, as Mary Ann's baptism shows the younger was also living in Rodney Street (might account for why he and Elizabeth were at two separate residences in 1841)
20th October 1833 St James, Clerkenwell born 22nd August
Mary Ann Sugden parents Samuel and Elizabeth, Rodney Street, father's occupation florist
I think both Margarets were florists, it is just by 1861 the younger was full time carer for her niece and living off the annuity paid for to her to care for her.
1851 census HO107 1500 folio 415
17 Freeling Street Islington
Margaret Rawlinson 48 Unmarried Artificial florist Shoreditch Middlesex
Mary Ann Sugden 17 Niece St Pancras Middlesex
Mary Ann Rawlinson 18 Niece St Pancras Middlesex
not sure whether the two Mary Ann's aren't the same person enumerated twice because of the confusion with their surname.
Highgate Cemetery of St James, Swains Lane 15th January 1870
Mary Ann Sugden aged 36 , Collenham? Road, Holloway Buildings
might be interesting to see who she is buried with
Or its the legitimate Mary Ann Sugden being looked after most of her life by the Rawlinsons because she was for most of it an invalid, her father paying Margerat Rawlinson the younger to do the caring. There is credence in this because the legitimate Mary Ann Sugden cannot be found after the 1841 census.
Regards
Valda
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Thanks again, Valda. Helps clear the waters a bit...I think it is a mistake on the census...seems ulikely to have 2 young girls, first names the same, ages almost the same, both nieces...I know they are not always the most accurate of reports!
I'll have to spend some time with my notes again! What's weird is that the name Rawlinson does not crop up in connection with the Sugdens other than through Margaret?
Phil S.
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Hi
I can't see the connection is through Margaret senior. It might be through her husband or just through her daughter Rachel.
Possibles
WILLIAM RAWLINSON
MARGARET TELLIER
Marriage: 27 OCT 1799 Saint Mary-St Marylebone Road, Saint Marylebone, London
children all baptised St Mary Marylebone
WILLM. RAWLINSON 13 MAR 1801 born 11 JAN 1801
MARGT. RAWLINSON 30 JAN 1803 born 04 DEC 1802
RACHAEL RAWLINSON 01 MAY 1808 born 04 DEC 1805
ELIZABETH RAWLINSON 01 MAY 1808 born 04 MAR 1808
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda,
Yes, her age matches up with an entry I have on the 1841 census for Edmonton, Hornsey, where MR is 35 and down as 'HD' although Samuel Sugden is the head...to be fair though I have written that the HD could be Ind, as I was looking at the original microfiche...yes, it was that long ago!
Phil S.
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Hi Valda,
Yes, the plot thickens. It looks as if Samuel had the illegitimate child with Rachel ( he would have been about 10 years older than her at the time) and it's strange that Elizabeth is not at the same address as Samuel in 1841 ( though she could have been temporarily away visiting), and she dies in 1843...do you know if there is a registration of her death anywhere to be found? And Rachel Rawlinson seems to go missing aftr the 1841 census, and daughter Louisa (Rawlins) Sugden after 1851. Louisa had to move on as M.Rawlinson Senior died in 1852.
Thanks
Phil S.
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Hi
already posted
Deaths Dec 1843
SUGDEN Elizabeth London 2 140
Elizabeth is not temporarily away visiting in 1841. That seems to be an address for the family or at least Elizabeth and her daughter Maria as on the 1841 census (census night 6th June). Elizabeth is still in the same parish in 1843. This might be where the warehouse business was at 12 and 16 Aldermanbury or certainly originally at 12.
St James, Pentonville 5th November 1843
Elizabeth Sugden 55 years St Mary Aldermanbury
burial given previously by Ian
St Mary Aldermanbury 29th July 1841
William Watson Full Bachelor Warehouseman 119 Wood Street John Watson Farmer
Maria Sugden Full Spinster 16 Aldermanbury Samuel Sugden Warehouseman
Both signed
Witnesses Samuel and Sarah Sugden
previous marriage exact same details 28th February 1841 St Mary, Haggerston
Witnesses Samuel Stevenson and Ann Hutchinson
Maria was a minor in 1841 (under 21)
a snippet from ''Handbook' to the manufacturers & exporters of Great Britain, ...' 1870 on Google books
'SUGDEN, SON and NEPHEW, 12 and 16 Aldermanbury EC Artificial flowers. Ostrich feathers, &c. ...'
From the London Gazette
1857 London Gazette the firm of Sugden, Borras and Co dissolved - warehouse business at 12 Aldermanbury
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/21968/pages/553
1840 different company and different address in the City dissolved still involving Samuel and Robert Borras
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/19810/pages/10
The second firm exhibited at the Great Exhibition winning a prize for 'flowers in cambric'
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/21254/pages/2720
Google books
Official descriptive and illustrated catalogue: Great Exhibition of the ...
http://www.rootschat.com/links/09di/
Sugden son and nephew dissolved end of 1879
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/24798/pages/70
and 1883
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/25191/pages/420
1896 Samuel Sugden's will
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/26801/pages/7281
The fur trade connection (seals) 1895 - Google books - a later company C A Sugden established by Charles Alfred
http://tinyurl.com/385b5xa
No idea about what happened to Rachel Rawlinson or her daughter. The marriage in 1846 of Rachel Rawlinson isn't her.
As Samuel left a will that might give some information.
Margaret Rawlinson junior lived for many more years
Deaths Mar 1893 Rawlinson Margaret 90 Islington 1b 149
On the 1871 census Margaret is lodging in Islington RG10 296 folio 89 at 92 Cottenham Road. She is living is the same house as two Budden families. On the 1881 census at the same address she is the aunt to the head of household of the Budding family (in reality Budden) - James Dowell Budden born St Pancras circa 1830 (married Elizabeth Charlotte Taplin 1856) RG11 278 folio 92
St Pancras Old Church 1st November 1829
James Dowell Budden parents William and Jane (nee Dowell married 1827), Middlesex street, father's occupation shopkeeper
So in reality no blood relation at all - an honary aunt at most
Still lodging with the Buddens in 1891 RG12 146 folio 29 at the same address
On all of these censuses she gives her birthplace as Marylebone and on two 'living on her own means',' a small annuity'.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Phil which generation are you descended from? The will attached is for Samuel who married Emma Linsell. Are you related two generations earlier?
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Ok so was it Samuel who married Elizabeth that had the child with Rachael or was it Samuel who married Sarah? I think I have mixed up the generations some were!
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Hi Lisa
Not completely sure which Samuel fathered Rachel. At first it looked like 69 year old Samuel senior as he lived in Rodney Street and may very well have been a widower by 1839. But then the baptism of Mary Ann the daughter of Samuel and Elizabeth showed they too had lived in Rodney Street in 1833. At some point between 1830 and 1832 it looks like Samuel junior may have moved in with his father (if his father arrived there first or they all ended up there together). The parish register for Emily's baptism gives a hint that business may not have been good for Samuel junior at this point. The 1841 census and Elizabeth's burial in 1843 seem to indicate from at least then she was living in Aldermanbury whereas by 1841 Samuel junior was living in Hornsey. Samuel senior in 1841 was living in Rodney Street. So from that evidence it is really difficult to tell which it is, though the later census indicates Samuel junior was paying Margaret Rawlinson junior to look after his invalid daughter Mary Ann which gives him another connection to the Rawlinson family.
Samuel and Elizabeth's children's baptisms
St Sepulchre Holborn 22nd May 1822
Maria Sugden parents Samuel and Elizabeth, 5 Angel Court, Artificial flower maker
same church same details
22nd August 1824
Frederick Sugden
St Pancras 25th January 1826 born 18th December 1825
Elizabeth Sugden parents Samuel and Elizabeth, Angel Court, father's occupation flower maker
St Sepulchre Holborn 7th June 1826
John Sugden parents Samuel and Elizabeth, Angel Court, father's occupation Artificial Flower maker
1st June 1828 St James, Clerkenwell born 5th April
Samuel Sugden parents Samuel and Elizabeth, Chapel Row, father's occuaption flower maker
same church 19th September 1830 born 20th August
Emily Sebden parents Samuel and Elizabeth, Chapel Court, father's occupation flower maker poor
same church
14th October 1832 born 24th August
Louisa Sugden parents Samuel and Elizabeth, Rodney Street, father's occupation Artificial florist
already given
20th October 1833 St James, Clerkenwell born 22nd August
Mary Ann Sugden parents Samuel and Elizabeth, Rodney Street, father's occupation florist
Regards
Valda
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I think I have just figured out what is happening here. The Elizabeth you are mentioning here is the first wife of Samuel Sugden born 1798 Leeds. I couldn't figure out the dates and how everyone fitted in then the penny dropped.This is Elizabeth (nee Morse) Samuel's first wife. My ancestor Samuel's son, Albert was born in 1865 years latter by his second wife Emma Linsell, who was about 20 years or so younger. I thought that Louisa and Mary Ann were born to Elizabeth Morse and this is what you have just shown in your last post. I thought you were talking about the earlier Samuel Sugden who also married an Elizabeth but I couldn't fit in the dates so thought I must have mixed up generations some were. Lisa
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Hi Lisa,
Did you attach a will? I can't actually see an attachment?
My dad's line comes through William who was the brother of Samuel ( married to E.Morse, she died in 1843). So that makes Samuel my gt.gt.gt.uncle, I think.
My gt.gt.gt.gt.grandfather is Samuel born 1770 Shoreditch, married to sarah Hutchinson.
Phil
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HI Valda and Lisa,
I think the fater of Louisa is most likely to be Samuel born 1798, wife to E.Morse. On 1841 census for Hornsey, he is 40, and Margaret ( Rachel's sister) is living in the same house. Rachel was about 30 at that time so the age difference is not so great.
Valda, did you say that Elizabeth was at 12 Aldermanbury on the 1841 census?
Phil
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Valda,
I'm pretty sure that the Samuel and Elizabeth Sugden I mentioned in an earlier post ( living in Worship Street in 1766) are the probable ( possible!) parents of Samuel born 1770 in Shoreditch.
I'm not sure how to start going back further or finding out more information about them. Any tips on where I could start looking, as obviously paper redords start getting a bit thin before 1800 !
Grateful for any tips at all!
Thanks
Phil S.
-
Hi
A will would be too big to attach to this a post. It would have to be sent by exchanging emails through the pm system (do not put email addresses on the posts please)
1841 census HO107 722/2 folio 5
16 Aldermanbury St Mary Aldermanbury City of London
Maria Sugden 15 born in county
Elizth Sugden 50 not born in county
Adult ages, those over 15, ususally rounded down to the nearest 5 on the 1841 census
1841 census HO107 663/4 folio 53
Crouch End Hornsey
Saml Sugden 40 Warehouseman not born in county
Elizabeth Sugden 15 born in county
Emily Sugden 11 born in county
Mary Sugden 7 born in county
John Sugden 65 born in county
Margaret Rawlinson 35 F S born in county
two other servants
Baptisms at St Leonards Shoreditch
SAMUEL SUGDEN
Birth: 23 MAY 1770
Christening: 24 JUN 1770 Saint Leonards, Shoreditch, London
Father: SAMUEL SUGDEN
Mother: ELISABETH
JOHN SUGDEN
Birth: 29 DEC 1767
Christening: 17 JAN 1768 Saint Leonards, Shoreditch, London,
Father: SAMUEL SUGDEN
Mother: ELISABETH
possible siblings
ELIZABETH SUGDEN Pedigree
Christening: 02 MAR 1766 Saint Stephan Coleman Street, London
Father: SAMUEL SUGDEN
Mother: ELIZABETH
FANNY SUGDEN
Christening: 04 SEP 1772 Saint Botolph Without Aldersgate, London
Father: SAML. SUGDEN
Mother: ELIZ.
further information may or may not be given in the registers for baptisms this early but you might expect an address for all of them.
A possible marriage
22nd May 1764 St Leonard Shoreditch
Samuel Sugden widower of the parish
Elizabeth Eyers spinster of the parish
married by banns
Elizabeth made her mark
Witnesses J? Goodfellow and Eli ?
There is a Samuel Sugden PCC will but it is in Bloomsbury and there appears to be possibly another Samuel Sugden marrying there (signatures on marriages look different). The wills held at the Guildhall Library for the Commissary Court of London have no online index.
Regards
Valda
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Thanks loads Valda. Will investigate further!
Phil S.
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Keep in touch Phil. Seems we are closely related.
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Valda if possible can you check up for me on the father of Sarah Hutchinson? I believe his name was Anthony but I don't have a mother's name. Lisa
-
Hi
I can only check the IGI (International GenealogicaL Index) Family Search which is free for anyone to search
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true
or
http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html?datestamp=1204024901500#start
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda and Phil. Just found a Newspaper article about Samuels will giving his personal estate the value of 139,080 pounds. The article also say's he was formally of the firm Sugden Son and Nephew. And he also leaves to Margaret Rawlinson a life annuity of 50 pounds. The rest to his 12 children as listed in the ad. Lisa
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Hi,
I've emailed the Guildhall Library to check if they have a copy of Samuel's will ( probably) and then I'll go up and have a look and print it all out if not too long. will keep in touch!
Lisa - there is a way of calculating which 'remove' cousins we are..when I get time I'll check!
Cheers
Phil
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HI Valda,
I don't have a maiden name for Sarah ( born Wakefield approx 1793..she is on the Dorking 1841 and 1851 census) who married William Sugden ( born 1794 , St Peter ,Leeds). I think they must have married around1820-25 ? But I haven't been able to track the marriage.
Many thanks for any help.
Phil
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Hi
You have two children baptised in Dorking to William (bapt Leeds 1794) and Sarah (born Wakefield circa 1793)
WILLIAM SUGDEN: 10 APR 1825 Dorking, Surrey,
SARAH SUGDEN: 01 JUL 1829 Dorking, Surrey
From William and Sarah Sugden's ages you could expect a marriage from circa 1815 onwards and older children. As both were born in Yorkshire their marriage could have occurred there.
e.g. a possible
WILLIAM SUGDEN
SARAH BRIGGS
Marriage: 15 AUG 1816 Saint John, Wakefield, Yorkshire
with children
SAMUEL SUGDEN
Christening: 31 AUG 1817 Saint John, Wakefield, Yorkshire
Father: WILLIAM SUGDEN
Mother: SARAH BRIGGS
burial 18th November 1819 Samuel Sugden age 2+
MARY ANN SUGDEN
Christening: 14 APR 1822 Saint John, Wakefield, Yorkshire
Father: WILLIAM SUGDEN
Mother: SARAH BRIGGS
BENJAMIN SUGDEN
Christening: 14 APR 1822 Saint John, Wakefield, Yorkshire
Father: WILLIAM SUGDEN
Mother: SARAH BRIGGS
26th November 1843 St George in the East
Benjamin Sugden Full Bachelor Porter 8 lower King Street William Sugden Labourer
Harriott Upfold Spinster 8 Lower King Street John Upfold Bootmaker
Harriet made her mark
Witnesses Susan Worsam and ? Verralls?
1851 census HO107 1528 folio 201
4 Moors Yard St Nicholas Cole Abbey City of London
Benjamin Sugden 30 Head Married Wakefield Yorkshire
Harriet Sugden 28 Wife Married Dressmaker Bishopgate London
1861 census RG9 311 folio 20
41 Church Street Manchester Road Poplar Middlesex
Benjamin Sugden 38 Head Married Time keeper Ship yard Wakefield Yorkshire
Harriett Sugden 38 Wife Married Dressmaker Bishopgate Middlesex
1871 census RG10 587 folio 63
11 Church Street Manchester Road Poplar Middlesex
Benjamin Sugden 50 Head Married Engine Driver Yorkshire
Harriet Sugden 50 Wife Married Dressmaker London
Also baptised in Dorking
FRANCES SUGDEN
Christening: About 10 APR 1825 Dorking, Surrey
Father: JOHN SUGDEN
Mother: MARTHA
possible burial
25th April 1827 Frederick Sugden aged 14 months
Regards
Valda
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Thanks Valda - will pursue those leads.
The other mystery I have is the death of of my gt.grandfather William Sugden:
Born 10/4/1825 ( IGI)
On birth certificate of my grandfather Arthur Fuller Sugden 1865 he is as father with occupation art.florist.
Then he disappears until 1887 where on the marriage cert of Arthur Fuller he is registered as deceased.
I have never been able to track down his death. If you can find it or where he was on 1871 and 1881 censuses, I'd be very grateful.
Thank you as ever.
Phil S.
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Hi Lisa,
What is the reference for the newsapaper article - it sounds interesting!
Cheers
Phil
-
Hi Phil
Already given in a previous post 1/8/10 (in more detail) in response to the previous request for this information 1/8/10
1871 census RG10 421 folio 11
22 Hayne Street St Sepulchre City of London
William Sugden 47 Head Married Artificial florist Dorking Surrey
Harriet Sugden 36 Wife Married Artificial florist Chelsea Middlesex
George Sugden 17 Son Warehouseman Clerkenwell Middlesex
Arthur Sugden 5 Son St Sepulchre Middlesex
James Sugden 2 Son St Sepulchre Middlesex
Emily Sugden 8 months Daughter St Sepulchre Middlesex
1881 census RG11 374 folio 9
22 Hayne Court St Sepulchre City of London
William Sudgen 58 Head Married Artifial florist Dorking
Harriet Sudgen 48 Wife Married Artifical florist City London
Arthur Sudgen 15 Son City London
James Sudgen 13 Son City London
Emily Sudgen 10 Daughter City London
plus 7 lodgers
Deaths Jun 1881 Sugden Harriet 47 London C. 1c 13
The only possible death registration for William in London would be this one
Deaths Dec 1884 SUGDEN William 61 Poplar 1c 406
Regards
Valda
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Sorry Valda!!! There's been so much activity on this thread, I forgot to check!!
Thanks again!!!
Phil
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That's is what has kept happening to me. I'd miss pieces of info. Lisa
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Hi Lisa,
did you get my email address okay?
Cheers
Phil
-
Hi Phil
Yes I did. Did you get the article OK? Lisa
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Hi Valda,
I remember at the beginning of this thread that you said perhaps there is no connection between the Samuel Sugden born in Leeds in 1798 and the Samuel Sugden born in Shoreditch in 1770.
I'm not sure myself now - however I've been able to find a couple of connections:
1) Both of them were registered as artificial florists at some time in their lives ( although that by itself could just be coincidence)
2) The only connection that seems to show a link is the Rodney Street address: as far as I can see, Samuel 1798 had 2 children registered (Louise 1832 and Mary Ann 1833) with Rodney Street
as his address. After that he is only found in Hornsey I think.
However, in 1841, Samuel 1770 is living there with Sarah aged 30 ( not born in borough) . I'm not sure who this Sarah is? Is it Samuel 1770's daughter?(For which I don't think I have a birth...there is a Sarah born to him in Dorking but that was in 1829 )
Or is she related to Samuel 1798?
Either way, both Samuels seem to have a common connection with this Rodney Street address!
3) Finally, it is curious that Samuel 1798 ( who I think is the father of the illegitimate child) gives Rodney St as the address when he takes Rachel Rawlinson ( called Sugden for convenience we imagine) to register the child. So there is another connection. I cannot believe it is the 1770 Samuel who is the father ...he was 70 !!!( And the other Samuel was living in Hornsey with Rachel's sister)
What do you think Valda? Is there any other connection which could establish whether the 2 Samuel's are related?
Grateful for any help as ever.
Thanks.
Phil
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Valda,
The Sarah born in Dorking is of course William's daughter not Samuel 1770's...sorry about the error.
Phil
-
Hi
The birth of the illegitmate Sugden wasn't registered - she was baptised. Parents, one or either are not necessarily present at baptisms as on adult baptisms. Rachel may just have been there on her own.
There easily seems enough connections as the thread has gone along to tie the two Samuels together with also William and John.
I think Sarah is Samuel senior's daughter on the 1841 census - the daughter baptised 1801 in Leeds (adult ages, those over 15 were usually rounded down to the nearest 5 on the 1841 census, but that would still be a slight more adjustment to get to 30) so maybe a later Sarah?
1871 census RG10 429 folio 60
12 and 16 Aldermanbury St Mary The Virgin Aldermanbury, London
Sarah Sugden 66 Unmarried Housekeeper Leeds, Yorkshire
with two servants and a watchman on duty
with Samuel junior as his sister on the 1881 and 1891 censuses in Edmonton
More interesting in where she is and who she is with on the 1851 census
1851 census HO107 15?3 or 8 folio 154
31 Rodney Street St James Clerkenwell
Sarah Sugden 85 Head Widow Artificial florist Leeds Yorkshire
Sarah Sugden 40 Daughter Unmarried Artificial florist Leeds Yorkshire
William Sugden 27 Grandson Unmarried Warehouseman Dorking Surrey
John Sugden 24 Grandson Unmarried Warehouseman Southwark Surrey
Samuel Sugden 22 Grandson Warehousman St Pancras Middlesex
plus 1 house servant
Most likely death registration though there is one in Stepney in the same quarter
Deaths Sep 1858 Sugden Sarah London City 1c 55
John the grandson was the son of John and Martha
6th May 1821 St Mary, Newington
John Sugden
Martha Collitt
Bachelor and spinster of the parish
both signed
Witnesses William Williams and F Collitt
St Saviour Southwark 16th November 1823 born 20th February 1820
Thomas Collett Sugden parents John and Martha, St Georges, father's occuaption watchmaker
St Saviour Southwark 18th August 1822 born 16th May
Henry Sugden parents John and Martha, Talbot Inn, father's occupation Carrier
Baptism in Dorking already given
16th April 1826 St Mary Magdalen Old Fish Street City of London born 23rd January
John Sugden parents John and Martha, New Inn Old Change, father's occupation Book keeper
Samuel and Elizabeth's son John died young
St Sepulchre 14th February 1827
John Sugden 8 months, Angel Court
as did their son Frederick
same church 10th November 1827
Frederick Sugden aged 3, Angel Court
St Pancras Parish Church 3rd July 1860
John Sugden Full Bachelor Warehousman St Mary Aldermanbury City of London Dead
Maria Linsell Full Spinster St Pancras John Linsell Dead
Both signed
Witnesses Wm Geo Garnier? and Lydia Lo?
This would be the John the nephew in Sugden, Son and Nephew
Regards
Valda
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Great stuff Valda...I'll get looking again at my notes!
Many thanks as ever!
Phil
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Hi Valda,
If I've got this right, you are saying that on that 1851 Census:
Sarah 85 is the widow of Samuel (b.1770) and she is therefore Sarah Hutchinson.
Sarah daughter 40 is the daughter of the above Sarah (Hutchinson) and Samuel ( b.1770) and therefore ALSO the sister (b.1801 Leeds) of Samuel (b.1798 Leeds) The only problem is as you say her age is quite a bit out on the census reports...unless the date of baptism is a misprint...not 1801 but 1810 in which case the ages would tally. OR as you say there could be a later Sarah ( dau of Samuel 1770) but we have never found her...
William (g/son 27 of Sarah (Hutchinson)) is the son of William Sugden (b.1794 Leeds) living in Dorking. And this latter William (b.1794) is brother to Samuel (b.1798 Leeds).
Which all means that Samuel Sugden (b.1798) is a son of Samuel (b.1770 in Shoreditch).
Have I understood it correctly?
Phil
-
Hi
Sarah junior's age on death is more consistent with the 1801 baptism
Deaths Sep 1896
Sugden Sarah 94 Edmonton 3a 242
1891 censuses 87
1881 census 77
When younger an 'age adjuster' who didn't quite age with the times.
The 1851 census at 31 Rodney Street is useful because it brings various parts of the family together
Sarah senior and junior and three grandsons/nephews depending on which Sarah they are relating to. Samuel we know to be the son of Samuel junior, William born Dorking son of William and now John son of John who (john junior) marries a Linsell (some relation to Samuel junior's second wife) - so the three sons of the three brothers.
The only child of Samuel and Sarah's missing/nothing is known of, of those baptised in Leeds, is Hannah Maria 1803.
Regards
Valda
-
So that means we can say that Samuel junior(1798) IS the son of Samuel (b1770) ?
In my notes I have a marriage of Hannah Maria to Richard Bartlett at St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey on 22 January 1826. Then later we have their child Louisa Bartlett , b or c. 6/9/1845 in Dorking. (Dorking connection again!)
And Louisa Bartlett (aged 15 born in Dorking) is down as niece to Sarah ( Samuel jnr's sister) aged 46 in the 1861 Aldermanbury census ( didn't note whether 12 or 16).
John Sugden is on the 1871 census at Highbury Grove aged 45, and he died 3/11/1884 at 29, Highbury Grove.
Phil
-
Hi
1861 census RG9 223 folio 58
12 and 16 Aldermanbury St Mary Aldermanbury
Sarah Sugden Head 66 (looks more like 46) Sister Unmarried Housekeeper Leeds
Louisa Bartlett Niece 15 Milliner Dorking
St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey 22nd January 1826
Richard Bartlett
Hannah Maria Sugden
Bachelor and spinster of the parish
Both signed
Witnesses Saml Sugden and Sarah and Edw Judge
1827 March 1827 St Martin, Dorking
John Bartlett parents Richard and Hannah Maria, South Street Street, Blacksmith
buried 31st January 1839 aged 2
Same church and details except mother given as Maria
15th Jun 1828
Sarah Anne Bartlett parents Richard and Maria, West Street, Blacksmith
12th February 1830
Anna Maria Bartlett
22nd February 1832
Emily Bartlett
10th February 1836
Frances Jane Bartlett mother's name Anna Maria
Buried in Dorking 29th November 1841 aged 5
16th April 1838
Richard Bartlett
26th February 1840
Elizabeth Bartlett father's occupation smith
29th July 1842
Mary Ann Bartlett
6th August 1845
Louisa Bartlett
1841 census HO107 1081/7 folio
West Street Dorking Surrey
Richd Bartlett 40 Ironmonger
Hannah Bartlett 35
Sarah Bartlett 12
Anna Bartlett 10
Emily Bartlett 8
Frances Bartlett 4
Richard Bartlett 3
Elizabeth Bartlett 1
Sarah Sugden 71
plus 1 female servant
all born in county except Hannah and Sarah senior
Richard buried in Dorking aged 49 in 1847
Probably he came from Dorking there is a baptism 7th March 1798 to Richard and Sarah (but also one the same year to John and Sarah 6th May)
Will of Richard Bartlett, Smith of Dorking, Surrey 16 February 1802 PROB 11/1369
Will of John Bartlett, Blacksmith, Iron and Brass Founder and Farmer of Dorking , Surrey 10 December 1847 PROB 11/2065
1851 census HO107 1598 folio 334
North side of High Street Dorking
Hannah Maria Bartlett 45 Head Widow Milliner Leeds York
Sarah Ann Bartlett 22 Daughter
Anna Maria Bartlett 21 Daughter
Emily Bartlett 19 Daughter
Elizabeth Bartlett 11 Daughter
Mary Ann Bartlett 8 Daughter
Louisa Bartlett 5 Daughter
all the children born Dorking Surrey
Hannah Maria buried in Dorking in 1844 aged 49
Regards
Valda
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Great stuff Valda! Thanks!
Note that Sarah Sugden is temporarily withem in 1871 !?
I notice you are still reluctant to say whether you think Samuel 1798 is son of Samuel 1770 !!?? What do you reckon?
Thanks
Phil
-
Hi
The issue would be the only evidence for his birth in Middlesex is the 1841 census.
'There was a belief that the census was a way of gathering data for the poor law and that people might in consequence end up being sent back to their place of birth. This could be the reason, as well as a hazy knowledge of county geography, that many people gave yes to the county of birth question, claiming they were born in the county, when later censuses show they were not'
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,428062.0.html
Regards
Valda
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Yes - although there is the Samuel Sugden who with his siblings Elizabeth, John were born in a row ( 1765,1766,1770) at St Leonards to Samuel and Elizabeth of Worship Street. His age would be exactly right in 1841. But it seems difficult to say with certainty that the other Samuel born in Leeds is his son...why would there be this constant movement between Yorkshire and London in the 18th and early 19th century when transport was so primitive and the distances so great. It would make more sense if 1798 Samuel had been born in London!
Regards
Phil
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The 1798 Samuel died in 1896, and his estate was worth £140,000 at the time. Not sure what that would be in todays values.
Ian C
-
Hi
The National Archives
Currency converter
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/currency/
Regards
Valda
-
About £8,000,000 in todays value according to that.
Ian C
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Hi Ian having troubles with this one. There seems to be doubt on the paternity of Samuel 1798. I presumed Samuel's father to be Samuel Sugden born 1770 and Sarah Hutchinson. Lisa