RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: Marc Mc Namara on Saturday 12 June 10 13:06 BST (UK)
-
Hi Shane,
i recently found family at 234 in Township Cottages (Rathmines & Rathgar East, Dublin) - can you shed any light on where these were / are relevant to today - Thanks
-
Township cottages , Rathmines East DED 1901 = Gullistan Cottages..
Did you have a post about this on Dublin.ie ?
Shane
-
Yes but I got a couple of inconclusive answers - is this address still valid?
-
It's definitely the same location, but the numbers changed slightly. Instead of being in the 200s as on the 1901 census they were renumbered (1to 63) soon after. Based on the details (newspaper & census) I found on the Roe family, and the cert Martin found, number 257 Township cottages equates to 15 or 16 Gullistan Cottages. I'm not sure yet what number 234 would be, I'm trying to cross-check the occupants of the 1901 vs 1911 census details to see if there are any matches.
I believe these 1 to 63 numbers are still in use... I'll try to check tomorrow if I've time.
Gullistan Cottages, map (http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=53.32439330286341~-6.262173481445302&lvl=18&sty=r)
Gullistan Cottages, Aerial view (http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=swmpwzggb9kw&scene=53237445&lvl=2&sty=b)
Shane
Edit : Since the reverse of the 1901 census forms are not online yet, there's no way to confirm at the moment if the numbers used are official addresses or just site numbers.
-
I've checked the names listed on the 1901 census for Township cottages against those for Gulistan Cottages in 1911 and found a possible pattern to the renumbering.
In 1901 the house have site numbers from 210 to 272, and in 1911 the are numbered 1 to 62, with number 45 missing. Unfortunately all the houses are the same structure so there are no clues in the building returns.
The possible match involves reversing the order (so 272 to 210) and reassigning numbers of 1 to 63. So no. 272 in 1901 becomes No. 1, no. 271 becomes no. 2 etc.
Using this system I can find 12 houses that have the same surnames in 1911 as in 1901. This system also fits with the 1901 article on the Roe family living no. 16 Gulistan Cottages / 257 Township Cottages. I plan to check the details for a selection of people at the matched addresses to double-check this system.
Using this system translates the 1901 census address of 234 Township cottages to 30 Gulistan Cottages in 1911.
Shane
-
Hi Shane,
I have just obtained a record from Glasnevin for my GG Grandfather, whom passed in 1900 and suprise suprise his address was 34,GULLISTAN COTTAGES
Surname: DENNISON
Firstname: WILLIAM
Last address: 34,GULLISTAN COTTAGES,
RATHMINES,
COUNTY DUBLIN.
Date of death 03 Nov 1900
What is interesting is that this is the father of Lucy McNamara living at the Township Cottage on the Census - so why was it known as GULLISTAN COTTAGES in 1900 and 1911 but the TOWNSHIP in 1901?? I am assuming that this is the same property....
any thoughts
-
In about the 1820s there was a house named Gulistan in the vicinity, and later the 1860s two houses were built on an road which became known as Gulistan terrace. Land around this terrace was purchased by Rathmines and Urban District Council (i.e. the township) in 1891 to build 'artisan dwellings'. 64 houses were built at a total cost of £11,000 (src: 'Four Roads to Dublin' by Deirdre Kelly).
I suspect that the difference in the location name is accounted for by the fact that the cottages were quite new at the time of the 1901 census, and due to the location (off Gulistan Terrace) would almost certainly have been known locally, and possibly by Rathmines UDC, at that time as Gulistan Cottages. The census on the other hand was based on Electoral Districts (DEDs) and national boundaries, so may not have yet acknowledged the local name at the time of the 1901 census.
I've seen similar discrepancies for several addresses between various sources at times e.g. census, Thom's directories, local knowledge, certs, voting registers.. etc..
The updated OSI maps show house numbers for many addresses, including the cottages.... see Gulistan Cottages (http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,715823,731900,7) (click street map [beta] for the version with numbers). The numbers for the cottages dont seem to follow a logical sequence .. It looks like maybe the three rows to the south of the terrace are numbers 1 to 33, and the higher numbers are for the cottages to the north of the terrace.
I can have a look over the weekend and check which is number 34 if you wish..
Shane
-
That makes a lot of sense - Thanks. It was intersting for me to make the link of the families as for me this is the more interesting aspect of family history but i do like to visit the locations that they lived and get a feel for the environment.
Out of interest, the same family were previously at St Marys Terrace Rathmines but this does not appear on the 1901 (?) but is there in 1911 - again, did it have a District name? The death cert was for 1898 ??
-
sometimes these terraces were actually just sections of a street... so not always listed separately. I'll see if I can located any details on the location of St. Mary's Tce ..
Shane
-
Thom's 1894 - St. Mary's Terrace off Richmond Hill
St. Mary's male and female National Schools
also 3 houses
Miss Keogh, principal teacher St. Mary's
Patrick B. Sullivan, teacher
Miss Deegan - schoolmistress
In 1914 the St. Mary's address and school are listed as part of Richmond Hill :
Richmond Hill - Rathmines
house numbers 1-26
St. Mary's National Schools - Patk. R. Sheerin, principle male teacher
Miss Dwyer, principle female teacher
St. Mary's Terrace
1 Miss Dwyer
2 Patrick R. Sheerin
3 Miss Farrell
41 vacant
Update : On the 1901 census St. Mary's school and the terrace seem to be included as part of Richmond Hill (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Rathmines___Rathgar_East/Richmond_Hill/) - the school is at #140, and two of the teachers mentoned in Thom's '04 are located next to the school :
142.2 Kate Deegan - National Teacher (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Rathmines___Rathgar_East/Richmond_Hill/1294135/)
142.1 Patrick Sullivan - Teacher (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Rathmines___Rathgar_East/Richmond_Hill/1294134/)
Shane
-
Thanks again...
It is odd though, whilst i waiting for a response i went through some other certs as the address was familiar and i found the birth of my Great uncle ( Richard T McNamara) born at 1 St Marys Terrace three weeks prior to the death of his Grandmother (Maria Denison) so clearly a busy house.... On the record from Glasnevin the informant was a lady by the name of O'Reilly, whom lived at number 3 - so booth sides of the school then.... Need to check to see if they are related other wise i should have thought her daughter would have informed?
Slan tamill
Marc
-
Gulistan Terrace is on Google Earth.
Moderator's Comment: Image removed- please view from Google Earth or Google Maps (Gulistan Terrace, Dublin).
-
Extract of an 1885 map showing a part of Ranelagh & Rathmines and the area in between. Richmond Hill/St. Mary's Tce and Gulistan Avenue are quite close (the cottages had not been built at this time).
from Map of South County Dublin 1885 (http://roots.swilson.info/southcountydublinc1880/southcountydublin_c1880.html)
Shane
-
Great Map - and i also found tranquilla convent which was somewhere else i was interested in as my mother attended it in the 40's
Thanks
-
Hi, Guys,
Anyone come across any info/links to follow re 250 Township Cottages and the Freeman or Costello families circa 1901?
Annie (widow) and John Freeman (her son) were lodgers with Patrick and Sarah Costello.
Many thanks.
-
Hi Guys,
I came across this thread as I'm interested in St. Mary's Terrace, Richmond Hill - The Sherrin Family led me to this address. I haven't read all the thread but there are 2 things I'm aware of:
1. I think St. Mary's Terrace stood where the community centre now stands - right about where the red line/ arrow ends on the map.
2. Numbers & renumbering on the 1901 & 1911 Census. I think there is a big problem here that might be misleading a lot of people. The numbers given on the site only correspond to the numbers used on the enumerators forms NOT the house number. The only way you will know the actual house number is to look at the other side of form A usually scanned as A2. This is not always present on the site - seems to be there for 1911 but not 1901. Granted a lot of the time the house number & form number match in 1911 but there is no way of knowing the house number in 1901 without seeing this form.
HMC
-
My Sutton family were at 5 Gullistan Place on the 1911 census.
Is it still likely to be the same number now?
llij
-
Gullistsan place is a small section at the south-east of the cottages. See the OSI map Gullistan Place (http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,715795,731840,7)
I've set the little red cross is be positioned over what I believe to be number 5. See the 25" map for the 1890s map. (see the options to the right for the different maps - or press 8 for the 1890s map, and 1 for the modern view). The modern house numbers are just visible on the modern street map 1 to the north of the place and 7 to the south - the other numbers (9 to 13) are on the south and west side of the place.
I believe the numbers are probably the same now as the were at the time of the 1911 census.
Shane
-
Thank you for that Shane.
I like to see unchanged streets. Call me old fashioned!
llij
-
I'm trying to track down '4 St. Marys Terrace' as named on a birth certificate but the place in Rathmines seems to only have up to number 3 on the 1911 census ( http://137.191.247.9/pages/1911/Dublin/Rathmines___Rathgar_East/St__Mary_s_Terrace/ ). Might number 4 be the school itself?
The reason that I think I have the correct St. Mary's is because the Informant is listed as 'Eliza Clinton' of '31 Rathmines'.
I am researching this for the birth of 'Francis O'Neill' in 1910. His father (also called Francis) was supposed to be at the same address (4 St. Marys Terrace).
Hope someone can help, I'm pretty confused.
Thanks in advance
Ryan
-
I can't find it in the house-by-house street listing inThoms 1922 ....
though two St Mary's Terrace mentioned in Rathmines in the list of streets!
eadaoin
-
It does seem to have disappeared in the ebb and flow of the school nearby. I think about 1915 was the last it was seen.
It may also be a transcription error on the copy of the certificate I have, I had hoped they would send a photocopy but they sent a brand new typed copy. Which although useful, leaves questions such as this.
-
Township cottages , Rathmines East DED 1901 = Gullistan Cottages..
Did you have a post about this on Dublin.ie ?
Hi there my grandad Leo mcgovern (William mcgovern) lived in 30a gullistan cottages found 30 but no 30a! Any light on that?
Shane
-
(http://) 34 Gullistan Cottage's.
-
I read a post that someone was asking about the Freeman family who were living at 250 Township Cottages, my grandfather was John Freeman and my great grandmother was Annie Freeman nee Casey.
I don’t know if there was any connection to the Costello family or they were simply boarders in that house.