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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Tephra on Tuesday 29 June 10 09:58 BST (UK)
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Welcome to this weeks Scavenger Hunt. I think you'll have fun hunting this guy down.
Good Luck and Good Hunting
Barbara
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I am trying to find the birth/baptism or parents of Samuel WIMBUSH b c.1800.
Indeed, anything on Samuel prior to 1838. I have all I need going forwards.
His timeline is as follows:
1838 birth of son – William – Q3 Salford; bp 08 Jun 1838; d Q2 1840.
1841 census – HO107-573-B3-F37-P27; Black Lion Court, Manchester; Butcher
1841 birth of daughter – Mary – birth not reg; b 3 Jun 1841; bp 17 Jun 1841.
1843 birth of daughter – Betsy – birth not reg; bp 13 Sep 1843; d Q4 1843.
1844 birth of son – Samuel – Q2 Manchester.
1848 birth of daughter – Betty – Q3 Manchester; b 19 Sep 1848; bp 1 Oct 1848.
1851 census –HO107-2229-F176-P31; Long Millgate, Manchester.
1859 died – Q4 Manchester.
In 1841 Samuel gives his age as 40 – the enumerator hasn’t rounded ages of adults.
There is a son, Martin, but he is the illegitimate son of Samuel’s wife, Betty. There is a thread about Martin here - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,448819.0.html
In 1851 Samuel gives his age as 51 (this had been transcribed as 57 but is definitely 51) and his place of birth as Staffs, Wolverhampton.
He is a butcher on both census returns. Martin and Samuel jnr both go on to become butchers also, suggesting this is a family trade – was Samuel’s father a butcher also? Maybe he was an apprentice somewhere – are there such records available?
There is also a thread here http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,411839.0.html that mentions this branch of the family.
There doesn’t appear to be a marriage between Samuel and Betty KNIGHT. Betty is a single woman when Martin is born/baptised in 1835 and by the time William is born in 1838 they are claiming to be married. I’m not overly concerned about that – if anyone finds one that would be great but I’m more interested in finding Samuel’s past.
Samuel is a bit of an enigma at the moment.
I don’t have any other WIMBUSHs born in Wolverhampton until c.1900. I don’t have anything solid on him before the birth of William, and this is where I am hoping RC’ers can help out. Can Samuel be found anywhere prior to 1838?
I know this isn’t set in stone but first daughter is Mary, Betty’s mother was Mary. Second daughter named Betsy – after Betty herself? Betsy didn’t live long and the 3rd daughter was then named Betty as well. Second son is Samuel – named after his father maybe? Could Samuel’s father be a William? Maybe Samuel was illegitimate?
I am also curious about the possibility that Samuel’s parents may have been canal-boat people as there is a branch of canal-boat Wimbush’s that ended up in Oldbury – only about 8 miles from Wolverhampton. I have their details going forwards, I only mention them because they are the nearest to Wolverhampton.
I know Samuel is not going to be an easy one but please post any suggestions or ideas – everything is worth following up.
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I've just spent the last hour trying to find anything without much luck.
No mention of any Wimbushs at St Peter's Wolverhampton.
Looking at 1841 for clusters I found one in the Northants ( Boddington) Oxfordshire ( Cropredy) and Warwicks border area.
Looking at the Northants marriage index the Wimbushs were long established in Boddington ( a very small village) there are marriages for Samuels but in the 1700s.
Looking at Cropredy PR's they appeared there in the 1780s.No baptism for a Samuel though. There is also a family in Tingewick Bucks in 1841, they are from the Cropredy branch ( burial of a Wimbush child 'of Tingewick' in Cropredy).
So all I haven't got is Northants baptisms, but Sandy on the Northants board has them. Maybe worth checking if there was a baptism of a Samuel at the right time.
With it being a relatively uncommon surname it may be worth checking all Wimbushs you can find anywhere before 1837.
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Hi Jaywit,
Many thanks for searching.
It's not part of this hunt I know but I'd love the info you have on the burial of a Wimbush child of Tingewick in Cropredy if possible please?
I am looking at all Wimbushs (I'm descended from the Boddington branch) - but this Samuel is the brickwall. He's mentioned on a couple of Anc boards as well, so seems that other people have been looking for him without much joy - I'm begining to think he was dropped off by aliens.
I've got 2 3 Samuel's (checked for Wimbush and Winbush plus variants) born between 1785 and 1815 who didn't die in infancy (not including this Samuel - I'll call him Samuel 0).
1. Son of Samuel Wimbush and Elizabeth Chapman - b.c1804 in Finchley m.5 Jan 1832 to Mary Ann Barnes (St Anne, Soho), m.18 Nov 1846 to Ann Hilhouse (Slingsby, Yorks), m. 29 Aug 1860 to Caroline White (Chepping Wycombe, Bucks), d.1882 Q2 in Finchley.
2. Son of Henry Wimbush and Bridget Dowding - b.31 Dec 1814 in Great Berkhampstead, Herts, m.16 jun 1842 to Rosanna Franks (St Marylebone), d.1884 Q4 in Oldbury, Worcs.
3. Another "alien"! I hadn't realised or made any hint of a connection here until right this minute. I don't have any baptism or census entries or even a death, but I do have 2 marriages and 4 children.
m. 22 Jan 1824 to France Watts in Leamington Hastings (2 children Isaac 1824 and Mary 1826) then m. 24 Oct 1827 to Mary Wes(t)ley (2 children Sophia 1828 and John 1830). Burial for Mary 11 Sep 1831 Wappenbury, no death found for Frances.
In 1841 Isaac is a farm servant in Leamington Hastings, Mary - not found, Sophia is in Eathorpe with an elderly Parker couple, John also in Eathorpe (next door) with the Heritage family at the Plough Inn. No sign of their father Samuel. No deaths for a Samuel until 1854 in Barnet (father of Samuel 1 in this post) and 1859 Manchester (the Samuel we are looking for in Manchester/Wolverhampton).
It's less than 5 miles from Wappenbury to Leamington Hastings via Eathorpe and Marton.
I wonder if Samuel 3 and Samuel 0 are one and same? Is it possible he left Wappenbury after his 2nd (?) wife died in 1831 and headed for Manchester? And if he might be and if he was born in Wolverhampton what was he doing in the Wappenbury area? Of course they could just be two totally separate people.
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I'll go through the Cropredy PR's again later and let you have all the Wimbush records.
Now if Samuel was from the Northants/Warwicks/Oxfordshire Wimbushs then his accent may have been difficult to understand in Manchester.
What I am thinking is we only have that one reference to him being born in Wolverhampton, what if he actually told the enumerator something else?
Wappenbury for instance?
On those early census returns sometimes the enumerator put down either what they thought they heard or basically just guessed what the person had said.
I think he must have been married before, but if he had been widowed then why not marry again? Did he have another wife somewhere?
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Hi
I have been looking around and can't spot anything!
The marriage of Sam to Elizabeth/Betty/Betsey is also not to be found....... yet! 8)
I was hioping to find a Will or something on NA..... still looking.
deb
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I've got the baptism of Betty (as Betty) 11 Mar 1804 in Farnworth (St Wilfrid), the same church Martin (the illegitimate son) was baptised in too, less than 10 miles from So I expect that *if* Samuel and Betty married it would have been in the Manchester area. Their children were baptised in Manchester Cathedral.
I agree that pob Wolverhampton has probably arisen because of an error somewhere, maybe Samuel not being sure where he was born, maybe the ennumerator misreading the household return. I'm not sure that Samuel would have had to have the ennumerator fill the form in for him, to be a butcher shop keeper I'm guessing he would have been at least somewhat literate.
I appreciate you taking the time to have a look, keeping fingers crossed that maybe that elusive piece of information will turn up =)
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In the early days of registration some people thought they could register the child OR have them christened they didn’t realise it was necessary for the registration and the onus wasn’t on the parents at this stage. So have you found bp.’s of the children who were not registered but died as youngsters, they would have had to be christened also to be buried with the full rites.
Am thinking further re Samuel Wimbush himself but could they have been non-conformists? Have you checked the non-conformist database?
http://www.bmdregisters.co.uk/
Where did Samuel learn the art of butchering? Are there any apprenticeships/ indentures?
Have you checked the directories of that time and before to see when and where Samuel was practicing butchering?
How about tax records he would have had to pay tax everybody does
What about electoral roles? If he earned more than £10 a year was over 21 he would be entitled to vote – did he own the house / shop where he worked / lived? Who did ? was it owned by the manor or the parish have you checked the manorial records to see leaseholds etc?
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Hi Toni, long time no see......... ;D ;D
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:) Back later..
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I have looked on the bmdregisters site - very little for Wimbush/Winbush, there are a few hits although nothing for Samuel.
As for where he learnt butchery, it's my guess he must either have done an apprenticeship or that a family member (his father/uncle) must have been a butcher, but I haven't found any records of such an apprenticeship - that's not to say there isn't, I might not have been looking in the right places. Same with the tax and electoral rolls.
I hadn't thought about who owned the house he lived in or the shop. Where would I look to find the manorial records?
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A travelling family i.e. canal boats would explain why he set up home in Bettys parish rather than the usual (I use usual loosely) to set up home in his home parish but this doesn’t tell us where he learnt his trade. It was ‘normal’ practice when applying a trade to have a 7 year apprencticeship / indenture beforehand so if he was practicing butchering (not an apprentice) in 1838 it would be expected that he was practicing butchering at least 7 years prior to this you need to look it eh trade directories to see if there are any Wimbush butchers – of course he could be butchering for someone as an employee rather than himself but he might not be too.
Manorial records would be held at the local record office, which manor would it be under?
have you seenthe canalboat / traveller website (sorry i dont know the link)
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Something crossed my mind.
In the 1830's/1840's Manchester ( Salford wasn't a borough until 1844) was growing rapidly.http://www.localhistories.org/manchester.html
Now all those mill workers wanted meat to eat and there would be a demand for butchers.
Now at the bottom end of the market would it be a prerequisite that a man who turned up and who could maybe slaughter and roughly butcher animals would have had to show he had served an apprenticeship? Or would the employer perhaps give him a practical test and say you will do.
The reason I am saying this is that the Cropredy branch of the family were recorded as Calf Dealers, so maybe they had some rudimentary knowledge of butchery.
I checked directories yesterday and couldn't find anything.
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i did wonder if he was a journeyman butcher i.e someone who just applied his trade but i did also think that he would have to have been butchering for a while to set up in a shop / house.
I havent checked if heas a butcher in 1851
And JustKia didn’t say if he was a butcher on the childs birth cert
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1851 doesn't give employer/employee but looking at the census he was living at 109 LongMillgate, a baker on one side and a pub on the other so it does look like it could have been his own business.
Mind you that is at least 14 years after he shows up in Manchester and if he did come from a family who worked for themselves that was enough time for him to set up on his own.
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Looking at 1841 he was next door to a Victuller in Black Lion Court so again it could be his own shop, I guess rented rather than owned but he must have had some money behind him to start up a business.
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Samuel appears in the following directories:
1853 Whellans & Co - Manchester & Salford - Pork Butcher, 109 Long Millgate
1850 Slaters - Manchester - Pork Butcher, 109 Long Milgate
1847 Slaters - Manchester - Butcher, 109 Long Milgate
This directory also has a John Wimbush, Chymist & Druggist in Manchester at 5 Ravald St, Butler St.
Whether this person could be a lead or not connected I don't know.
Kanskar
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I was having a look in Manchester Times for the 1835-1865 period. Nothing for Samuel, but I see thera was J N Wimbush a grocer of Birmingham who went bankrupt in 1862.
Just wonder if this is a relative, Birmingham not being too far from Wolverhampton or even if it was the same person as John Wimbush that Kanskar found.
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J N Wimbush was John Neal Wimbush, "generally known as John Neal" according to the London Gazette of 16 May 1862.
Edit He had formerly been in Swansea
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Looking at 1841 he was next door to a Victuller in Black Lion Court so again it could be his own shop, I guess rented rather than owned but he must have had some money behind him to start up a business.
so he could be here 1841 - 1847 when he turns up in Manchester
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This directory also has a John Wimbush, Chymist & Druggist in Manchester at 5 Ravald St, Butler St.
Whether this person could be a lead or not connected I don't know.
Kanskar
This John Wimbush, 30, "vendor of medcine" and his wife Elizabeth, 27 (both born out of county) were living at St Andrews Street, Manchester in 1841
The only Wimbush families in Manchester at this time are Samuel and John's families.
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Hi all
Just found this and have been playing around with it :)
In 1841 there is a James KNIGHT, 20, not born in county and an Isaac WIMBUSH, 17, Born in county working for Farmer Ann Mason in Leamington Hastings, Warwick
IGI has this extracted record
Isaac Wimbush s/o SAMUEL WIMBUSH and Frances
chr 12 SEP 1824 Marton, Warwick
(there is also a Mary born to this couple)
could Samuel have had another marriage prior to Betty Knight?
there is a marriage of Samuel WiNbush to Frances Watts in 1824 on IGI. I can't see a Frances WiNbush or WiMbush on the 1841.
iwill look further
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Hi all
Just found this and have been playing around with it :)
In 1841 there is a James KNIGHT, 20, not born in county and an Isaac WIMBUSH, 17, Born in county working for Farmer Ann Mason in Leamington Hastings, Warwick
IGI has this extracted record
Isaac Wimbush s/o SAMUEL WIMBUSH and Frances
chr 12 SEP 1824 Marton, Warwick
(there is also a Mary born to this couple)
could Samuel have had another marriage prior to Betty Knight?
there is a marriage of Samuel WiNbush to Frances Watts in 1824 on IGI. I can't see a Frances WiNbush or WiMbush on the 1841.
iwill look further
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i saw this earlier
http://www.hunimex.net/warwick/bmd/Leamington_all_saints_marriages_1813-36.html
probably relevant to the one you mention :)
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Hi Toni :)
yep ...looks like the same one....
I was interested in the fact that Isaac Wimbush was with a KNIGHT as that was Betty's maiden name. Betty had Martin at about 31 ...so she was quite 'old' when 'marrying' Samuel. Wish we could find that marriage.
deb
added Isaac is easy to follow ... unfortunately he doesn't become a butcher! ::)
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This directory also has a John Wimbush, Chymist & Druggist in Manchester at 5 Ravald St, Butler St.
This is the son of John Wimbush and Mary Gardner. He married Elizabeth Eaton 27 Jun 1836 Manchester Cathedral. I believe this John to have been born c1806 in Byfield, Northamptonshire. I don't have any siblings for him but I do have an Elizabeth born Byfield c1796 and George c1816, no parents for either as yet.
I wonder if that's a coincidence that John went from Byfield to Manchester?
I wonder if Northampton said with an accent could sound like Wolverhampton - Norfampton/Norvampton -> Wolv'ampton or if a scrawly or badly written "Nort" can look like "Wolv". To me it has the same sort of shape. I can see "No" and "Wo" easily confused, the upper stroke of the "t" and the "l"...
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Edit He had formerly been in Swansea
That is very interesting. Fanny Ann (b1853) and Mary Ann Sarah (b1855) daughters of "John Wimbush, a master grocer" died in Swansea in 1858.
John Neal (son of Benjamin Wimbush and Hannah Neal) married Sarah Ann Butcher 1849 Q1 Buckingham RD and the children I have for them are Henry Alexander 1850; Leoni Nelson Neal 1851; John Butcher 1859; Frederick William Richard 1862; Ambrose Durrant 1865 - with a big gap between 1851 and 1859...
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In reply 2 - he's my other "alien"
3. Another "alien"! I hadn't realised or made any hint of a connection here until right this minute. I don't have any baptism or census entries or even a death, but I do have 2 marriages and 4 children.
m. 22 Jan 1824 to France Watts in Leamington Hastings (2 children Isaac 1824 and Mary 1826) then m. 24 Oct 1827 to Mary Wes(t)ley (2 children Sophia 1828 and John 1830). Burial for Mary 11 Sep 1831 Wappenbury, no death found for Frances.
In 1841 Isaac is a farm servant in Leamington Hastings, Mary - not found, Sophia is in Eathorpe with an elderly Parker couple, John also in Eathorpe (next door) with the Heritage family at the Plough Inn. No sign of their father Samuel. No deaths for a Samuel until 1854 in Barnet (father of Samuel 1 in this post) and 1859 Manchester (the Samuel we are looking for in Manchester/Wolverhampton).
It's less than 5 miles from Wappenbury to Leamington Hastings via Eathorpe and Marton.
I wonder if Samuel 3 and Samuel 0 are one and same? Is it possible he left Wappenbury after his 2nd (?) wife died in 1831 and headed for Manchester? And if he might be and if he was born in Wolverhampton what was he doing in the Wappenbury area? Of course they could just be two totally separate people.
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I think it's probable that the Samuel we are looking for is either Samuel who married Frances Watts and Mary Westley or possibly related (brother?) to John from Byfield who moved to Manchester, or even that all this is one person.
OK going to post a look up request on Northampton board (will link it to here) for John Wimbush (son of John and Mary) and ask if there is a Samuel in a similar time frame.
Edit: posted request here http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=465342
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Hi Justkia
Sorry about that ...I should have read your posts again in order not to replicate your findings ..ie Isaac Winbush.
I just liked the thought of a Wimbush and a Knight being together ...I was thinkinking/hoping/wishing that James Knight introduced Betty to the Wimbush family ;D ;D ;D
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Aww that would be lovely, if it were true.
I feel stupid that I hadn't noticed James Knight in the same household as Isaac before. I sort of got as far as the head of house and skimmed the other servants.
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May I suggest please that you look on FreeReg for Wimbush baptisms in Byfield 1804 +/- 5 yrs.
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Of course - I'm grateful for all suggestions.
Interesting results...
Mary bp 9 Apr 1798
Samuel bp 14 Apr 1800 - could this be "our" Samuel?
John bp 19 Jan 1806
Elizabeth bp 19 Sep 1808
William bp 27 May 1811
George bp 19 Sep 1814
There isn't any parents names given on FreeReg, trying to find them on familysearch gives George's parents as John & Mary, and I don't get any hits on the others.
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County Northamptonshire
Place Byfield
Church Holy Cross
BaptismDate 14 Apr 1800
Forename Samuel
Sex M
FatherForename John
MotherForename Sophia
FatherSurname WIMBUSH
I never thought to look on FreeReg for any Wimbush baptisms at Byfield.
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John Wimbush was a shoemaker ( from youngest son George's baptism)
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Samuel's mother Sophia died in 1801 and John remarried to Mary Gardner in 1805 ( mother of the children born after 1805) . John stayed in Byfield and died in 1832. So no marriage or death for Samuel in Byfield.
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John Wimbushs first marriage was to Sophia Short at Preston Capes, both otp ( my guess is Sophia was) on 18/91797.
So if Sophia died in 1801 when Samuel was just a toddler and John didn't remarry until 1805 I wonder if Samuel went to his mother's family, or to the Warwickshire Wimbush branch?
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Just realised if you click on the number to the left of the hits on FreeReg it has more info :-[
John Wimbush m. Mary Gardner 1 Apr 1805 in Byfield. He was a widower at the time. Could he have been married to Sophia before?
Samuel's (whichever one he turns out be be) daughter with Mary Wes(t)ley was Sophia - I know it's not an un-common name but the Wimbushs do seem to like to keep family names going.
Ah Jaywit has same idea. I've got John's burial 15 May 1832 Byfield, St Mary the Virgin. So, it seems to be that the same John married both Sophia and Mary?
Is there a marriage for John to Sophia? I've looked on FreeReg and FS with no joy so far. thanks jaywit =)
Am I jumping the gun in thinking that Samuel b Byfield, Samuel father of Isaac and Samuel married to Betty are probably one and same?
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Well as I said Samuel born Byfield didn't marry or die there, neither did he marry anywhere else in Northamptonshire before 1837. So...
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As you said IGI has Samuel WiNbush and Frances Watts marrying at Leamington Hastings on 22/1/1824 and the baptism of Issac Wimbush. Also the later marriage to Mary ( I notice the daughter of that marriage was Sophia) So what I would try and do is see the actual PR's or a transcript in case Samuel's occupation is recorded on any of the entries. If it comes up as butcher then what are the odds of it being the same man as Samuel in Manchester? Pretty good I would think.
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This directory also has a John Wimbush, Chymist & Druggist in Manchester at 5 Ravald St, Butler St.
Whether this person could be a lead or not connected I don't know.
Kanskar
This John Wimbush, 30, "vendor of medcine" and his wife Elizabeth, 27 (both born out of county) were living at St Andrews Street, Manchester in 1841
The only Wimbush families in Manchester at this time are Samuel and John's families.
In 1851 John has remarried to a Hannah, 28, dressmaker b Yorks.
I wonder if it would be worth getting his marriage cert?
possible:
John Wimbush
dec q 1845
Manchester Lancashire
20 728
no females on page
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Looking back at the earlier posts the 2 children of the Samuel/Mary marriage were Sophia and John.
Byfield Samuel's parents were Sophia and John, not proof I know but it all stacks up. It is just finding out what Byfield Samuel's occupation was. If it was a butcher then in view of everything else stacking up I think it was him in Manchester
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Hi All,
Not sure if these will help at all from Oxfordshire Marriage Index.....
24 Nov 1814 Benjamin Wimbush to Anne Neal at Croperdy
18 Nov 1822 John Wimbush to Hannah Priest at Croperdy
20 Oct 1717 Samuel Wimbush to Mary Wady at Claydon
27 Sep 1803 Thomas Wimbush to Ann Adams at Croperdy
14 Dec 1813 Thomas Wimbush, LT Boulton to Sarah Kimberley, Coventry at Croperdy
If these help at all and you want the female marriages from here just say :)
Sue
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Sorry Jaywit.
I have just posted same information on the Northants Thread.
Apologies.
Sandy
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Sandy - don't be sorry, that was my fault for not realising I could click the numbers next to the results on FreeReg to get more info, I'm the one who should be (and I am) apologising.
Sue - I'd definitely appreciate the female marriages if you don't mind. Cheeky I know as they may not fit this hunt but I'm pretty convinced that all Wimbushs/Winbushs are related at some distant ancestor (probably in Lincolnshire eventually).
The Thomas that married Ann Adams is the same Thomas later marrying Sarah Sammons (who was previously married to Joseph Kimberley). Oh what a tangled web these people weave!
Deb - The marriage of John to Hannah Bottomley was 13 Oct 1845 in St George, Manchester.
John died 1852 Q4 Manchester and Hannah d1863 Q1 Manchester. Hannah remarried 14 Aug 1854 Manchester to John Dyson. I'm not sure what happened there because by 1861 she is living as Hannah Wimbush - widow.
John Wimbush's first wife, Elizabeth, d1842 Q4 Manchester.
I have the birth cert of Samuel (son of Samuel and Betty) b5 Apr 1844 Manchester. Father's occupation is "Pork Butcher" on there.
The pre-1837 marriage entries I have so far don't give a groom's occupation. I'll try and get to Warwick RO tomorrow and see if by chance there is anything on the marriages of Samuel to Frances Watts and Mary Wes(t)ley.
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It's often the baptisms, if you are lucky, that give the fathers occupation.
It all depends on the vicar, some put occupations in some didn't.
So if you can look at the baptisms for the children of both marriages you may, fingers crossed be lucky.
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It's often the baptisms, if you are lucky, that give the fathers occupation.
D'oh - that's a sensible idea, I should have thought of that.
So, my mission tomorrow is to find the baptisms of Isaac, Mary, Sophia and John in Marton and cross fingers that the person filling in the register noted the father's occupation.
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It's often the baptisms, if you are lucky, that give the fathers occupation.
D'oh - that's a sensible idea, I should have thought of that.
So, my mission tomorrow is to find the baptisms of Isaac, Mary, Sophia and John in Marton and cross fingers that the person filling in the register noted the father's occupation.
Yes ;D ;D ;D ;D Thats what you want.
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Here are those marriages from Oxfordshire Marriage Index....
13 Oct 1807 Ann Wimbush to William Elkington at Croperdy
22 Apr 1731 Elizabeth Wimbush, Claydon to John Padbury at Banbury
26 Jun 1797 Hannah Wimbush, GT Bourton to Thomas Robins, GT Bourton at Croperdy
26 Mar 1812 Hester Wimbush, Bourton to William Hopkins, Adderbury at Croperdy
13 Dec 1797 Mary Wimbush to James Clark, Bodicote at Banbury
Sue :)
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Just a wee thought on family names going on here.
Frances Watts was the daughter of Isaac and Sarah. The children of Samuel and Frances were Isaac - after his maternal grandfather and Mary - potentially Samuel's paternal grandmother is Mary (John W who married Sophia was son of John W and Mary Bonham). Jaywit asked "So if Sophia died in 1801 when Samuel was just a toddler and John didn't remarry until 1805 I wonder if Samuel went to his mother's family, or to the Warwickshire Wimbush branch?" - Maybe he went to his paternal grandmother?
Isaac then passed the name onto two of his sons (one died in infancy).
First son George - ?
2nd son Sam (not Samuel) - presumably after Isaac's father
3rd son Isaac - after his father and maternal grandfather
4th son John - after his paternal grandfather? (John W and Sophia Short)
5th son Isaac - the first Isaac had died
6th son William - ?
7th son Ernest Fred - ?
1st daughter - Fanny - after Frances
2nd dughter Ann - ?
3rd daughter Emma Sophia - after Isaac's mother and half-sister?
4th daughter Susan Agnes - ?
Mary Wes(t)ley was the daughter of John and Elizabeth. the children of Samuel and Mary were Sophia (paternal grandmother) and John (paternal and maternal grandfathers), as jaywit mentioned.
OK this then gets a bit complicated...
Isaac, son of Isaac and Mary, married Mary Ann Whitehead. Her parents were Emmanuel Whitehead and Ann Facer. Emmanuel was the illegitimate child of Amy Prestage/Prestidge. His baptism was as Emmanuel Whitehead Prestage but he dropped the Prestage at some point before 1818 when he married Ann. (There was an Emanuel Whitehead in the area and I suspect he was the father, if not it's an unusual choice of names.)
Amy's sister, Charlotte, married Thomas Wimbush of Upper Boddington.
In other words Emmanuel was cousins with a number of Wimbushs.
I suspect that the Upper Boddington branch connects with the Byfield branch within a few generations. I think they were probably quite aware of all the other branches and it seems many of them moved around quite a bit.
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Sue - Many thanks for the marriages =)
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Blimey ...talk about convoluted LOL ;D
so do you think Samuel was married 3 times? Samuel Wimbush = 1.Frances Watts = 2.Mary= 3.Betty
why can we not find his marriage to Betty Knight? Did the 2nd wife die or did he take up with Betty with 2nd wife somewhere else?
deb
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is Fanny (Frances) the daughter of Betty? Because if Frances didn’t die and Samuel took up with Betty it’s a strange choice of name (i.e. to call the daughter after his wife when he was with his mistress) maybe they couldn’t marry for some other reason …. Was Betty married previously? Did her husband die? or was Martin illegitimate (I’m sure you said somewhere earlier) Was Betty old enough to Mary when she took up with Samuel did her parents approve if not ? like I say I’m sure you have probably asked yourself these questions anyway another thought have you looked for marriages for Betty (Elizabeth) Knight / Night etc.
Whitehead that’s an interesting name to me
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Whitehead that’s an interesting name to me
Toni and remember the Whiteheads were from Northamptonshire although from the eastern side of the county not the western side.
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HI Jaywit, yes i do remember that which makes it an even more interesting name ;D
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Toni In this small cluster of villages almost everyone was related in some way. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Two of the names Kia has come up with Bonham and Gardner are in my tree.
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JustKia is this you?
http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/surnames.wimbush/42.1/mb.ashx
and this?
http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/surnames.wimbush/42/mb.ashx
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toni* - those posts aren't mine - I'm JustKia on there too =) but there are a couple of posts on Anc concerning this branch.
Fanny is daughter of Isaac W snr and Mary Ann Whitehead. Frances would have been Isaac's mother.
Betty was a "single woman" when M N Knight was baptised and 31 years old at the time.
Frances Watts was wife 1. Married 22 Jan 1824 Leamington Hastings. I don't have a death for her.
Mary Wes(t)ley was wife 2. Married 24 Oct 1827 Wappenbury. I have a burial for her 11 Sep 1831 Wappenbury.
Betty was wife 3 (if it is the same Samuel). If they married is a ?? Betty died 1866 Q1 Manchester.
Off to the RO then swimming be back in a few hours =)
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JustKia is this you?
http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/surnames.wimbush/42.1/mb.ashx
and this?
http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/surnames.wimbush/42/mb.ashx
That's actually me :D. That's how I learned a little about the descendants of Samuel, son of the Samuel who is the quarry of this hunt. I descend from Betty, daughter of Samuel.
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Really quick stop off before I go swim...
Going to start with the bad news, couldn't see the baptism of John 1830 at Marton or Wappenbury.
Then the better but not great news - found baptism of Sophia 1828 in Wappenbury - Samuel's occ - labourer.
Baptism of Mary 1826 in Marton - Samuel's occ - labourer.
And the interesting news - baptism of Isaac 1824 in Marton - Samuel's occ - BUTCHER!!!
Maybe he was a butcher by trade but had to take a labourers job to make ends meet?
As a side note I'm defintely changing Mary Wes(t)ley to Wesley. She signed the marriage entry and her parents were the witnesses - all signed as Wesley.
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I think that one baptism entry is going to be as good as it gets.
Before 1837 it is always going to be difficult to come up with 100% proof, but like I said before how many Samuel Wimbush butchers were there?
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As far as I know there were 2, Samuel that we are looking for and his son.
If this isn't the same chap then there are two Samuel Wimbushs both born around 1800, both having worked as a butcher at some time...
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And the interesting news - baptism of Isaac 1824 in Marton - Samuel's occ - BUTCHER!!!
I just liked the thought of a Wimbush and a Knight being together ...I was thinkinking/hoping/wishing that James Knight introduced Betty to the Wimbush family ;D ;D ;D
Love your finding for Isaac ...perhaps James knight did introduce Betty into the family
deb ;D
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JustKia is this you?
http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/surnames.wimbush/42.1/mb.ashx
and this?
http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/surnames.wimbush/42/mb.ashx
That's actually me :D. That's how I learned a little about the descendants of Samuel, son of the Samuel who is the quarry of this hunt. I descend from Betty, daughter of Samuel.
Welcome to the Scavenger Hunts misuaorang, hopefully you'll get some more information re your Wimbush people.... and you might have some information for JustKia. ;D
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From Just Kia's (reply 2)
3. Another "alien"! I hadn't realised or made any hint of a connection here until right this minute. I don't have any baptism or census entries or even a death, but I do have 2 marriages and 4 children.
m. 22 Jan 1824 to France Watts in Leamington Hastings (2 children Isaac 1824 and Mary 1826) then m. 24 Oct 1827 to Mary Wes(t)ley (2 children Sophia 1828 and John 1830). Burial for Mary 11 Sep 1831 Wappenbury, no death found for Frances.
In 1841 Isaac is a farm servant in Leamington Hastings, Mary - not found, Sophia is in Eathorpe with an elderly Parker couple, John also in Eathorpe (next door) with the Heritage family at the Plough Inn. No sign of their father Samuel. No deaths for a Samuel until 1854 in Barnet (father of Samuel 1 in this post) and 1859 Manchester (the Samuel we are looking for in Manchester/Wolverhampton).
It's less than 5 miles from Wappenbury to Leamington Hastings via Eathorpe and Marton.
There is a marriage for Sophia Wimbush - Dec 1849 Qtr Warwick Reg Dist - 16-911 - Groom is John Daniel. They are still together on the 1881 census as Daniels.
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Kanskar I notice in 1861 John and Sophia are living next door to the pub in Eathorpe and John Daniel(s) was a shoemaker with Sophia being a shoe binder. The father of Byfield Samuel was also a shoemaker, keeping the trade in the family?
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Thanks for the marriage there, Kanskar
Big Thank You to jaywit, deb usa, toni*, kanskar, alpinecottage, Sue and Sandy, and of course to anyone who took the time to look even if you didn't post here.
Just to tie up Samuel's lose ends and rule out bigamy has anyone seen a death for wife 1 - Frances? Samuel married her 22 Jan 1824 with the 2nd child born mid 1826 and then the marriage to wife 2 - Mary was 24 Oct 1827, so hopefully there's a death/burial for Frances between 1826-1827. The icing on the cake would be a marriage to Betty, but I'm pretty sure there isn't one - maybe Samuel felt that marrying was some sort of jinx with his two earlier wives having died shortly afterwards? I presume that if he was free to marry wife 2, and wife 2 died he would have been free to marry again.
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do you have the bp. for the child born 1826? just wondering if 2nd wife died in childbirth it might be worth looking at PR's
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Just a thought ...with Sophia being the daughter of Samuel the Shoemaker, maybe there were 2 Samuels
Samuel the butcher who may have had Isaac (s/o Samuel the butcher) and Mary by Frances Watts and then "married" Betty Knight and had children.
Then Samuel the shoemaker who married Mary Wesley and had Sophia and John.
deb
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Deb - I don't think that we know yet that Sophia was the shoemaker's daughter - we'd need to see her marriage cert.
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From Just Kia's (reply 2)
3. Another "alien"! I hadn't realised or made any hint of a connection here until right this minute. I don't have any baptism or census entries or even a death, but I do have 2 marriages and 4 children.
m. 22 Jan 1824 to France Watts in Leamington Hastings (2 children Isaac 1824 and Mary 1826) then m. 24 Oct 1827 to Mary Wes(t)ley (2 children Sophia 1828 and John 1830). Burial for Mary 11 Sep 1831 Wappenbury, no death found for Frances.
In 1841 Isaac is a farm servant in Leamington Hastings, Mary - not found, Sophia is in Eathorpe with an elderly Parker couple, John also in Eathorpe (next door) with the Heritage family at the Plough Inn. No sign of their father Samuel. No deaths for a Samuel until 1854 in Barnet (father of Samuel 1 in this post) and 1859 Manchester (the Samuel we are looking for in Manchester/Wolverhampton).
It's less than 5 miles from Wappenbury to Leamington Hastings via Eathorpe and Marton.
There is a marriage for Sophia Wimbush - Dec 1849 Qtr Warwick Reg Dist - 16-911 - Groom is John Daniel. They are still together on the 1881 census as Daniels.
kanskar
I read to quickly ...apologies
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Kanskar I notice in 1861 John and Sophia are living next door to the pub in Eathorpe and John Daniel(s) was a shoemaker with Sophia being a shoe binder. The father of Byfield Samuel was also a shoemaker, keeping the trade in the family?
[/b]
Kanskar ..also the above
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Thanks for the marriage there, Kanskar
Big Thank You to jaywit, deb usa, toni*, kanskar, alpinecottage, Sue and Sandy, and of course to anyone who took the time to look even if you didn't post here.
Just to tie up Samuel's lose ends and rule out bigamy has anyone seen a death for wife 1 - Frances? Samuel married her 22 Jan 1824 with the 2nd child born mid 1826 and then the marriage to wife 2 - Mary was 24 Oct 1827, so hopefully there's a death/burial for Frances between 1826-1827. The icing on the cake would be a marriage to Betty, but I'm pretty sure there isn't one - maybe Samuel felt that marrying was some sort of jinx with his two earlier wives having died shortly afterwards? I presume that if he was free to marry wife 2, and wife 2 died he would have been free to marry again.
I think you have got to go through PR's carefully to look for the death of Frances. The two obvious ones are Wappenbury and Marton but I would also look at Leamington Hastings.
Samuel and Frances married in Leamington, did Frances have family there? Did she go and stay with family and die in Leamington?
I can't think of any other place she may have been buried.
It does look as though Samuel was free to marry Betty but was Betty free to marry him?
She wasn't a spring chicken when she got together with Samuel, I think chances are he was the father of Martin and I know it says she was a single woman on Martin's baptism but at that point was Samuel prepared to commit to a permanent relationship or did the vicar ask her about a husband and she said no I'm not married.
Very difficult to work that one out but hopefully with a bit more work you will at least find Frances's burial.
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I haven't got a Samuel occ shoemaker - Samuel's father, John (m Sophia Short), was a shoemaker and Samuel's daughter, Sophia (m John Daniels) was a shoe binder.
Frances definitely had family in Leamington Hastings. You may be right in that she returned there due to illness or maybe her family had her taken back there to be buried after she died. I didn't find a burial in Marton or Wappenbury in the time frame.
The RO is closed next week, but I'll have another look for Frances' burial when they open and also the marriages of Sophia and Isaac to see what they gave as their father's occupation.
Interesting thought that Betty may have been the one who wasn't free to marry, although I'm not sure why as (I'm pretty sure that) she hadn't married before. And I too suspect that Samuel was the father of Martin. That said "Martin Nathan" was a family name in the Knight family - Betty had an uncle called Martin Nathan and another uncle of hers, Peter, called one of his son's Martin Nathan.
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It's time for this weeks Scavenger Hunt and here it is. Please read carefully before you start.
Good Luck and Good Hunting
Barbara
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,466548.0.html
As usual, this Hunt will remain open for any further information which may come in.