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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: URABUS on Monday 28 June 10 06:35 BST (UK)
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James and John Robinson (father/son) were my 4th /3rd Greatfathers and built a large number of ships described as "many are good sized boats of good rating for well known men" and "quite important ships and barques of good average grade"
James b 1784 Skelton,d 1873 Bishopwearmouth (Bwm). John b1815 Bwm. D ?, married 30/6/1840 Sunderland to Martha. They had a daughter Elizabeth who married John Small Andrew 24/12/1867. John was a "surgical instrument maker" and "engineer on steamship". They had son William Henry Andrew b 1868 who became a Chief Marine Engineer.
I am having difficulty in finding out more about the Robinsons and their business and would appreciate any help to flesh out my knowledge. Also anything on the Andrew connection particularly relting to their occupations.
Thank you
Les
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URABUS,
Checked 'historical directories' on line.
Slater's Commercial Directory of Durham, N'land,Yorkshire 1855
Shipbuilders
John and James Robinson, Deptford
Shipowners
Robinson John and James, Deptford
There is also an entry for Robinson John, 15 John St, B.W. (presumably Bishopwearmouth?) but might not be the same John.
Post Office Directory N'land and Durham 1858 -
Robinson James, Master Mariner, 18 South Durham St, B. (B = Bishopwearmouth in Index)
Robinson John, Shipbuilder, Deptford, B.
Yet to check directories for 1850/1851
regards
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The earliest reference I've found is
Ward's N'land and Durham Directory 1850
John Robinson, Shipbuilder and Owner, Deptford r. Mount Pleasant. B
Think the r. indicates home address as opposed to Works at Deptford? (haven't located Index)
regards
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From Volume 1 of "Building Ships on the North East Coast" by J.F. Clarke
"Robinsons built ships over many years and while there are many difficulties in sorting out family links, John Robinson had almost 19,000t to his credit over the years1846-69. A second yard at Deptford was run by James Robinson and built at least 25,000t during the years1839-67." A map showing the Wear Shipyards in 1861 has J & J Robinson as one of three shipyards at Deptford, and James Robinson's yard at Pallion.
John Robinson was one of the founder members of the Wear Shipbuilders' Association on8 November 1853.
You can see the location of the shipyards at Deptford on the 1851 map at http://lewis.dur.ac.uk/pip/singlezoom.asp?img=p2650&ref1=2415
Stan
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From the 1858 Post Office Directory: Ship Builders,
Robinson J. North Hylton, Sunderland
Robinson J. South Hylton, Sunderland
Robinson J. Deptford, B(ishopwearmouth) Sunderland
Robinson W. South Hylton, Sunderland
Stan
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You can locate Mount Pleasant, John Robinson's residence, if you go to http://gis.durham.gov.uk/website/interMAP/viewer.htm and put the coordinates 438590, 557940 in to search, and it is marked on the 1919-1926 map. It is on the 1851 map but is not named.
Stan
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A list of Sunderland shipbuilders in 1857 gives James Robinson at Low Pallion as builder of the snow/brig Hannah Andrew 202 tons for Robert Adamson Sunderland, and the Affiance 368 tons. John Robinson at Deptford Tce builder of the Weardale 188 tons Seamew 409 tons and Marshmallow 283 tons. I think these might be brothers. James Robinson born Skelton 1784 on the 1851 census is described only as a journeyman shipwright. There is also a yard called Green Robinson & Co in 1857.
I have a list of ships built by Robinsons of Sunderland 1858-1863 that runs to about 40 names, mostly medium size snows and barques for NE owners but a few for further afield, like the larger ships Wild Duck 735 tons and England 853 tons for London owners. There was only one iron vessel the brig Collean Bawn 280 tons built 1861.
The barque Gladiolus 388 tons was built for John Robinson of North Shields and the barque Falcon 319 tons for G&J Robinson Arundel. Hume & Easton built a brig Isabella Robinson 427 tons about that time, but of course Robinson is a common name and these latter may be co-incidence.
Hope this is useful, Peter
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Further to the previous, shipbuilder James Robinson b 1820 in Sunderland living in Church St Low Pallion with wife Jane b Loftus Yorks, does appear to be the elder brother of John and son of James Robinson elder who appears in the 1841 census as a shipbuilder.
Peter
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Peter, Stan, Hanes thank you so much for your help. We are visiting Sunderland later this year with a view to researching the Robinsons and the Andrew side of the family any suggestions as to where to go (perhaps I should have re-phrased that!). Would the library be a good start?
Les
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Hi Les,
Go to the Local Studies section of the City Library & Arts Centre on Fawcett Street.
http://www.sunderland.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1557
Stan
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Les,
You also mentioned John Small Andrew
Census 1871 RG10 4998 50 8
John Small Andrew, Head, 26, Flour Miller, b. Skelton Yorks
Elizabeth Andrew, Wife, 23, b. BpWearmouth
William H Andrew, son, 2, b. BpWearmouth
Ada E Andrew, Dau, 10 mths, BpWearmouth
Address 13 Gibson Terrace, BpWearmouth
And who's next door at No 14 but
"from home" John Robinson, head, 55, Shipbuilder (late a?), b. BpWearmouth
Martha Robinson, Wife, 56, b. BpWearmouth
Mary Robinson, Dau, 27, b. BpWearmouth
Emily Robinson, Dau, 21, b. BpWearmouth
Alfred Robinson, Son, 19, Engineer (app), b. BpWearmouth
Alice Robinson, Dau, 15, b. BpWearmouth
James Robinson, G/father, Widower, 86, b. Skelton
regards
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Les
1881 Census RG11 4988 58 6
Elizabeth Andrew, Head, Married, 33
William H Andrew , Son, 12
John R Andrew, Son, 9
Ada Elizabeth Andrew, Dau, 10
Alice Maud Andrew, Dau, 6
May Andrew, Dau 4
Elizabeth Andrew, 2
Address 1 Hylton St, BpWearmouth, all born Sunderland.
Death of John Small Andrew registered Mar 1886 Sunderland age 41 10a 327
1891 Census RG12 4127 12 15
Elizabeth Andrew, Head, Widow, living on her own means,
Ada E Andrew, Dau, 20, Milliner
John R Andrew, Son, 19, Photographer
Alice M Andrew, Dau, 16, Shoe Assistant
May Andrew, Dau, 14, Apprentice Dressmaker
Elizabeth Andrew, Dau, Scholar, 12
John J Anderson, Boarder, 24, Picture Frame Maker
Address - 4 Gibson Terrace, BpWearmouth
Haven't been able to link John Small Andrew "surgical instrument maker" as stated in original post but yet to trace him in 1881.
regards
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Thanks Stan, very helpful, we we contact them before we come to Sunderland.
Kind regards
Les
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Hanes
So good of you to take so much trouble your efforts are appreciated. The reference to John Small Andrew's occupation comes from the Birth Certificate of William Henry Andrew (John's son) born 22 November 1868 @ 7 Gibson Terrace Sunderland.
My understanding is that John Robinson b 1815 Bishopwearmouth and James b 1821 Bishopwearmouth were the sons of James Robinson b 1784 Skelton Yorks.
Some questions for all; in the 1840s -1870s in Sunderland did the Shipbuilding industry consist of large numbers of smaller yards or were there major yards dominating the industry? For example in the 1851 census John was a shipbuilder employing 47 men and given Stan and Peter's comments about the tonnage built suggest that this was a reasonable size business.
What would have been considered a large ship during these times? Presumably yards like the Robinsons disappeared as steel hulls and steam took over requiring larger more capitalised yards to build them?
I guess I have rambled a bit but I am trying to understand the times and mechanics of shipbuilding on Wearside during this period. Thank you all again for your input.
Les
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In 1850 there were over 70 shipbuilders on the Wear,( there are 71 listed in the 1851 Directory) by 1879 there were just over 10.(In the 1894 Directory only 9 are listed) After 1857 there was a clear downward trend, with fluctuations. Over the years 1850-57, an average of about 70 yards launched about two vessels each annually. It was not until 1868 that the number of yards fell below 50 and as iron construction advanced the numbers reduced to the 13-14 yards which continued until the 1920s. Years of decline followed the end of the Crimean War, and many long established shipbuilding families left the industry in the late 1850s.
From Volume 1 of "Building Ships on the North East Coast" by J.F. Clarke
Stan
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Another snippet from "Where Ships are Born"
"With yards at Hylton and Ayres Quay, John Robinson built nearly a hundred ships between 1846 and 1868. They were all wood ships ranging from 200 to 700 tons."
and from "Sunderland, River, Town & People"
"Between 1800 and 1860 very nearly 300 shipbuilders completed at least one vessel, however about one third of them did not last a single year and not more than half survived for two years."
Stan
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The wooden shipbuilding yards of the Wear required only a flattish piece of foreshore at right angles to the riverside. The backbone of the business was the coal trade. The smaller craft penetrated to remote river ports or discharged onto a beach at low tide. The largest destination was London River of course, but NE coal cargoes went everywhere in the world in ships of no great size. Australia was explored by means of a former collier barque after all. The Robinson built ships Wild Duck and England would be big vessels for their time. 1,000 tons was about the limit for commercial wooden ships. The first Wear built iron ship was built in 1852and you are right in concluding that the iron hulls and steam power required additional capital investment. Most of the owners of the great Wear shipyards of the 20th century though, began as wooden shipbuilders.
There is a good site with illustrations of shipyards at www.searlecanada.org/Sunderland site
Peter
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You can see the shipyards on the Wear in 1851 on the map at http://lewis.dur.ac.uk/pip/singlezoom.asp?img=p2650&ref1=2415
See also http://lewis.dur.ac.uk/pip/subject1.asp
The first iron hulled ship was called the "Loftus" completed by the engineer George Clark with John Barkes on 23 Feb. 1852
Stan
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Thanks so much Stan, I am so grateful for the help I have received from you and others. We are looking forward to coming to Sunderland later this year.
Have you any idea where Gibson Tce and Ropery Walk were/are?
I have a copy of an article from the Sunderland & Durham County Herald 9/7/1841 which refers to the firm of James Robinson and Sons and an Indenture of Assignment of all personal estate and effects to an Anthony Dodd Newton (Timber Merchant) and Scarth Robinson (Merchant Tailor) for the benefit of the creditors of James Robinson & Sons. Presumably this is a declaration of bankruptcy and essentially all their assets would have been taken? Obviously they later built most of their ships so the must have started afresh. Any comments? Was it common? How hard must it have been (no welfare state to provide support)?
Any help you can give will be very much appreciated.
Les
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Hi Les,
Do you mean Ropery Lane and Gibson's Lane? Ropery Lane was at 75 High Street East, and Gibson's Lane was off Burdon Lane at 50 High Street East. There was also a Ropery Lane in Monkwearmouth. Where did you get the names from?
Go to http://gis.durham.gov.uk/website/interMAP/viewer.htm for Ropery Lane enter the coordinates 440553, 557406 in to 'Search' and it will centre the map on where it was. Similarly for Gibson's Lane/Burdon Lane enter 440443, 557280.
There is an 1851 map at http://lewis.dur.ac.uk/pip/singlezoom.asp?img=p2650&ref1=2415
The 1840s were years of severe depression.
From "Building Ships on the North East Coast" volume 1, by J. F. Clarke, page 83
"Launches declined sharply on the Wear from the beginning of 1841. There was then a sustained trough from May 1842 to the start of 1845. The bankruptcies of the shipbuilders began as early as August 1840 with James Carr of Southwick; a timber merchant Mitclam held security on Carr's ships and yard. At least forty builders failed, including many long and well established yards, in this the first of all too many sustained depressions. There were 31 empty shops on the High Street in February 1843, and during June 500 workmen were on relief."
This would be Parish Relief.
Stan
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Hi Stan,
Thanks for your help.
The 1871 Census shows the families of John Small Andrew and John Robinson living at 13 and 14 Gibson Terrace Sunderland in the municipal ward of St. Michael. The Description of Enumeration District is unusual as all it shows is "additional enumeration book" and "totals carried to first book" Also William Henry Andrew's birth certificate (born 21/11/1868) shows him as born at 7 Gibson Tce North Bishopwearmouth.
The 1861 Census at North Bishopwearmouth West Ward show James Robinson (b 1784) at Ropery Walk. In the census the street immediately before Ropery Walk is "Kendle St", the street after is shown simply as "Deptford"
Where does Bishopwearmouth sit on a modern Sunderland map?
I am sorry if I am "going on a bit" but you have all fired me up to know more!
regards
Les
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Hi Les,
You cannot show Bishopwearmouth on the modern map, the area of originally consisted of two parishes, Bishopwearmouth, and Monkwearmouth. The parish of Sunderland was formed out of Bishopwearmouth in 1719. The whole area south of the river consisted of North Bishopwearmouth, South Bishopwearmouth, and Sunderland.
You can see a map of Bishopwearmouth at http://nd.durham.gov.uk/recordoffice/dro.nsf/vwebparishes/bishopwearmouth+st.+michael+and+all+angels
The streets you mention are all in Deptford, Ropery Walk became Ropery Road, and Kendal Street is marked but I have not yet found Gibson Terrace.
Stan
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This is another map showing the boundaries http://lewis.dur.ac.uk/pip/singlezoom.asp?img=p2389&ref1=2260
Stan
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Gibson Terrace was on the south side of Chester Road
On http://gis.durham.gov.uk/website/interMAP/viewer.htm the coordinates 439070, 556710 will locate Gibson Terrace, which must have been built just before the 1871 census.
Ropery Road is at 438420, 557735
Stan
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Thanks again Stan, great stuff!
Les
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James Robinson (born Skelton 1784) was also an ancestor of mine with his second son James being my 2 x GG father. To date I have had little success in researching any further back than James snr and have few details save that I think his wife was Mary. Their son James married Jane Robinson from Loftus. I do however have all of their son’s (a third James) birth, marriage and death certificates and the original census details from 1851 showing both families living side by side in Mount Pleasant together with a servant girl each.
I am fairly new to research and have found the information on the shipbuilding subject so far very helpful. Thank you Stan, it’s been brilliant to read your replies.
Both my late father and grandfather were master mariners with the British India line and although none of their descendants has followed in their footsteps (does rowing count?) we are all very proud of our heritage.
I was told by an elderly aunt decades ago that the book “Where Ships were Born: Sunderland 1346-1946 mentions the Robinsons contribution and understand that it is still in circulation.
Good luck in your own research
Millie
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I was told by an elderly aunt decades ago that the book “Where Ships were Born: Sunderland 1346-1946 mentions the Robinsons contribution and understand that it is still in circulation.
Good luck in your own research
Millie
Hi Millie
Welcome to RootsChat
"Where Ships are Born, Sunderland 1346-1946" is long out of print, the last version to be printed was the Wear Shipbuilders Association Centenary Edition, 1953. You can still get second hand copies.
Stan
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Hi
Although not related I have been researching the Robinson family of John, son of James. John's son Alfred was Chief Engineer on the SS Ottercaps when it was lost with all hands in 1903. We have just had an exhibition in Sunderland on the Ottercaps and have contacts with many of the descendants of Alfred, many of whom live in Australia. If you do not know about the Ottercaps I am happy to share information and would also like to take contact details if possible from descendants of James Robinson born Skelton in 1785. I believe that James also had sons William and George, William was also a shipbuilder. By the way Gibson Terrace, which was part of Chester Road, and where several of the family lived, was built by John Robinson. He used his workforce in building when the shipyards did not have much work.
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I didn't know about the Ottercaps incident nor that John built homes either, but I am a descendant of James Robinson of Skelton who had married Mary Brocket. They did have a number of children George, William, Anne (who died in her first year) John and James. John with his wife Martha Shepherd had eight children (including Alfred whom you mention) and James had 12, including another James from whom I am descended. Actually that third James died young of heart problems and was the only one not connected to the sea. My father and his father were both master mariners. Its some time since I did my research but I would be very interested to read any more up to date information.
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I came across The Sunderland Site (http://www.searlecanada.org/sunderland/sunderland001.html) when researching the Victorian mariners in my own family history. Although based in Canada Peter Searle has amassed a remarkable record of ships and ship builders which includes John and James Robinson amongst many others
Alan