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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: Leofwine on Monday 28 June 10 03:30 BST (UK)
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This is a bit of a long shot, but I'm trying to trace my Great Great Grandfather, one Abraham Moses Marks. I don't have masses of information on him, but here's what I do have.
Born: 1863, probably in Russia or eastern Europe
In 1881 he lived at 5, Fishers Alley, Spitalfields and was a Machiner At Tailors. He lived with his mother Leah (B. 1829, Warsaw) and stepfather Lazarus Levy (b. 1825, Warsaw), a Sponge Hawker.
His mother may have been at Whitechapel in 1871 as Leah Marks, but I have been unable to check the census entry yet. Before that I don't know.
From at least 1888-1891 or after he was at West Bromwich, Staffordshire where he was married to Alice (b. abt 1855) and had 3 children - Rosalie Dorothy (my great grandmother), Michael Jacob and Montague.
I think in 1891 he was in Walsall, Staffordshire.
Any information about him or his ancestors would be great. I suspect his family may have come here from eastern europe (family tradition said Hungary or possibly he Ukraine or eastern Romania) in the 1860s, and if this is the case, can anyone suggest where to look for information. As a Jewish family, the move may not have been entirely voluntary.
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Hi Leofwine,
The 1891 and 1901 Censuses say Abraham was born in London, and there's this birth registration:
Abraham Moses Marks
Jun 1863 Whitechapel 1c 346
:)
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FreeBMD has this marriage:
Marriage Dec 1870 London C 1c 207
Lazarus Levy to possibly Leah Marks
The 1871 census entry has Abraham's birth year out though:
1871
RG10/510 11 17
Christchurch Spitalfields, London
26 Dorset St
Lazarus Levy, head, 48, Glazier, b. Russia
Leah, wife, 45, b. Poland
Abraham, son, 10, Cigar Maker, b. do.
Mark, son, 8, ditto, b. do.
Mary, dau, 14, ditto, b. do.
Rachel, dau, 11, ditto, b. do.
Abraham Horn, lodger, unm, 20, ditto, b. do.
Lazarus Lopera?, lodger, unm, 22, Tailor, b. do.
Do you have Abraham's marriage cert? What does it say about his father?
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Hmm. Am I right thinking you can't find a marriage record? :-\
Also, it looks like Rosalie's parents separated, doesn't it?
In 1891, Abraham and Alice M are living together at West Bromwich but in 1901 at Walsall he is with a different wife (Martha) and his sons, while Alice M is living with the daughters in Birmingham.
If you're positive that your Abraham had a middle name Moses, I suppose the 1863 birth cert would be an interesting cert to get.
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Thanks for that Tati!
I have very little information on this side of the family. Even though Great Grandma Rosalie (or "Nanna at the Zoo" as I knew her - her last years were spent living just near London Zoo) and her (separated or divorced, I don't know) Husband "Grandpa Lewis" (William Edward Vaughn Lewis) died during my lifetime, I only met Rosalie once when I was about 3 so I don't really remember her, and "Grandpa Lewis disowned his family and I never met him. I know that there were scandals involving him and his wife Rosalie, and my grandfather would rarely talk about what went on. I only discovered that my grandfather had any siblings when I saw the 1911 census recently!
Family tradition says that my great grandfather (W.E.V. Lewis) was a surgeon at Sheffield Hospital caused a major scandal when he married a Jewess who was also a Tiller Girl (or might have been a Windmill girl). Apparently this, or some other scandal associated with his wife, caused him to lose his job. I don't know much about him after that other than he ended up back in Kent at the end of his life.
I know a few more stories of Rosalie, and from those I wish I'd known her properly, she sounds like an interesting lady! My grandfather always said the family came from Hungary, but I am not sure if that was just a generic term he used for eastern Europe. As well as the Tiller/Windmill girl episode, she seems to have been an eccentric woman in her later life. Despite having been brought up a Jewess, at 80 she decided to convert to Catholocism. At about 90 she travelled alone to the states on the QE2, and when she died a couple of years later, on her hospital death bed she asked my grandfather to have the priest sent to her for her last rites. He quipped "Did she want the priest or the rabbi?" as he left. She lasted a week or 2 more after this, and the next time my grandfather visited her the ward sister pulled him to one side and explained that she had had the whole staff in hysterics. She had ended up calling the priest AND the rabbi and the two had actually passed each other in the corridor as one was leaving her room and the other was going to see her! I guess she believed in hedging her bets!
I notice that in the 1911 Census William & Rosalie Lewis have been married 3 years, but have an an adopted daughter called Kathleen Marks - I cant help wondering if, given Rosalie's 'wild' reputation this may in fact be her daughter, born out of wedlock. Certainly that would have been cause for scandal in the Edwardian medical world!
That was pretty much all I 'knew' about her before I started looking into that side of the family recently. I only discovered her actual name recently (and my great grandfather's) when I obtained my grandfather's birth certificate which listed her as "Rosalie Dorothy Lewis, formerly Marks". The rest I have managed to find out so far has come purely from the census reports, but luckily the 1891 census only has one Rosalie (or variant) D Marks in it, and the 1911 only has one Rosalie Dorothy Lewis. I haven't been able to positively identify her in the 1901 census.
The same applies to Abraham Moses Marks, everything I have on him has come from a couple of census records. So far on that side of the family I have no BDM certificates for any of the family beyond my grandfather.
I'd not seen that 1871 census entry, but that does look like him given the rest of the family listed there. It's been a year or so since I last had a chance to do any digging, and I did have a handwritten note suggesting possibly Whitechapel 1863 as a birthdate for him. Right now I can't remember where the identity as Abraham Moses Marks came from, but I'm 95% sure it was a pretty firm reference. It's amazing how many small details you can forget in a year-18 months :(
I think maybe I need to try and get Rosalie's Birth certificate to be sure about the parental names - roll on payday! *LOL*
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I'm pretty sure this is Rosalie in 1901:
1901
RG13/2840 41 25
Birmingham, Warwickshire
84 Well Street
4 rooms occupied
Alice M Marks, head, mar, 36 (or 34), Dressmaker (own account, at home), b. Staffs West Bromwich
Rosy, dau, 14, Printing (folding), b. do.
Louisa, dau, 10, b. do.
Charlotte Jones, boarder, s, 42?, Charwoman, b. Penkridge
William Smith, boarder, s, 35, Jeweller - Brooch Maker, b. America
Someone has a tree on ancestry giving Alice's full name as Alice Mary Coleman but they say they haven't found a marriage either.
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Thank you again Tati.
I currently only have access to the 1881 free census, but looking at that I found an Alice M Coleman that seems to fit, living with her parents and maternal grandmother. If I've identified her correctly that's great as it takes the line back 2 more generations! This is the entry, what do you think?
1881
RG11/2819 95 37
Walsall, Darlaston, Staffordshire
42, Bull St, Darlaston
COLEMAN, Thomas B, Head, Mar, 40, Master Painter Employs 7 Hands, b. 1841 Willenhall Staffordshire
COLEMAN, May, Wife, Mar, 39, b. 1842 Darlaston Staffordshire
COLEMAN, Alice M, Dau, Single, 17, b. 1864 Darlaston Staffordshire
COLEMAN, Ada A, Dau, 15, b. 1866 Darlaston Staffordshire
COLEMAN, Mary E, Dau, 11, Sch, b. 1870 Darlaston Staffordshire
COLEMAN, Martha L, Dau, 9, Sch, b. 1872 Darlaston Staffordshire
COLEMAN, Clara M, Dau, Sch, 7, b. 1874 Darlaston Staffordshire
COLEMAN, Albert E, Son, 2, b. 1879 Darlaston Staffordshire
COLEMAN, Violet M, Dau, 0, b. 1881 Darlaston Staffordshire
WOOD, Mary, Mother In Law, Widow, 63, 1818 Darlaston Staffordshire
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www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
- catalogue shows the divorce in 1924, his name is given as "William Edward Vaughan Lewis", Rosalie was the one who divorced him.
He seems to have served in the Boer War:
http://www.angloboerwar.com/Other/shipping/190211.htm
The medical register/medical directory would help you track his history.
If you search for "Lewis, William E.V." on Google Books it shows an entry in 1936 where he's listed as being restored to the Medical Register.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2461448/pdf/brmedj07589-0049.pdf
(don't know if you can show this but Lewis, William E.V. was removed from the medical register in 1935, as he hadn't responded to a letter sent to him from the General Medical council asking to confirm whether or not his details were correct.)
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Thank you jorose, that's really interesting stuff!
The Boer War connection is really intriguing as WEV Lewis is my mothers paternal grandfather, and I know her maternal grandfather (William Frederick Rudman, b. Dover, Kent 23 Apr 1882) also served in the Boer War, but as a member of the South African Constabulary.
The date for the divorce is very helpful, and I'm surprised she divorced him, I had always assumed the separation had been his decision. I guess that helps explain some of the bitterness he felt.
I also didn't know he'd ever been removed from the medical Register, now I'll have to try and find out more about that
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Egg on Face time for me now!
I finally got Rosalie's birth certificate, and now have her father as Morris Marks and mother as Jane Adelaide Alice Marks (nee Penny), so the Abraham Moses Marks I had was wrong. :(
Not sure if I should leave this thread running, or start a new one with the right name in the subject?
But even with the wrong name this thread has given me much useful information, so thanks for that all who have contributed suggestions.
And I wonder if he was actually Abraham Morris Marks? Or is the Abraham M Marks with daughter Rosalie Dorothy likely to be a different Rosalie? Seems an unusual name to have 2 born at the same time in the same place, but maybe I'm wrong.
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We can certainly continue on this thread as it has quite a bit of info about Rosalie on it.
freebmd shows the marriage as in 1886: Morris Marks, and Jane Alice A. Penny
Also interesting: Rosalie's remarriage in 1926 to Pierre R Vallotton : might this be him?
http://www2.richmond.gov.uk/burials/DetailsD.asp?ID=278485
Jane Alice Adelaide Penny was b. 1864 Wednesbury (she is in 1881 mis-transcribed as "Jesse A. A. Penney").
There is some info on the Penny family here: http://www.inch.com/~penney/gene/pages/heytesbury.htm
What was the occupation of "Morris" on Rosalie's birth certificate?
The family may well have ben changing names around etc.
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I hadn't found the re-marriage, I will have to follow that up! Thanks for that.
Morris is shown as 'Journeyman Tailor' on Rosalie's birth certificate.
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Looking at the Rosalie Dorothy marriage to Pierre Rene Vallotton (b. 1904) I wonder if it was in fact her Daughter (also named Rosalie Dorothy b. 1908) getting married. Of course from what I've heard of her from my mother (now dead so I can't ask her for more info) I wouldn't be surprised if she ended up marrying someone nearly 20 years her junior! *LOL*
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I've finally got the marriage certificate for Rosalie Dorothy and Pierre Vollaton. It is the elder Rosalie (Morris' Daughter) who ended up marrying the man 17 years her junior (and she still outlived him by 4 years!)
I also got the birth certificate for Kathleen Marks who was William Edward Vaughan Lewis' adopted daughter in the 1911 census. She was Rosalie's natural daughter. The birth certificate does not list a father, but it does list Rosalie Dorothy as a "Shop Assistant (Fancy Goods) of 32 Arlington Road, St Pancras" Does anyone happen to have a Kelley's directory or similar of around 1905 that identifies the shop at this address?
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"Grandpa Lewis" (William Edward Vaughn Lewis) died during my lifetime
Family tradition says that my great grandfather (W.E.V. Lewis) was a surgeon at Sheffield Hospital caused a major scandal when he married a Jewess who was also a Tiller Girl (or might have been a Windmill girl). Apparently this, or some other scandal associated with his wife, caused him to lose his job. I don't know much about him after that other than he ended up back in Kent at the end of his life.
I notice that in the 1911 Census William & Rosalie Lewis have been married 3 years, but have an an adopted daughter called Kathleen Marks - I cant help wondering if, given Rosalie's 'wild' reputation this may in fact be her daughter, born out of wedlock. Certainly that would have been cause for scandal in the Edwardian medical world!
I am really hoping this is the same "William Edward Vaughan Lewis" so this is what I have so far :
1901 Lewis, William Edward Vaughan, 157, Burbury-strect, Lozclls,
Birmingham.
taken from the full text of Fellows & Members
LICENTIATES
ROYAL COLLEGE OF PHYSICIANS OY LONDON,
HOLDERS OF THE DIPLOMA IN PUBLIC HEALTH.
GRANTED CONJOINTLY BY THE
ROYAL COLLEGES OF PHYSICIANS AND SORGEONS.
1908 William Edward Vaughan Lewis marries Rosalie Dorothy Marks
(national archives)
1911 Census William and Rosalie married three years
adopted daughter Kathleen Marks (Rosalie's daughter born out of wedlock 1908)
1924 Divorced Rosalie
(national archives)
5th November 1926
living at 2 Kingswood Road, Gillingham, Kent
appointed physician surgeon to the Invicta Medical Benefit Society, 2A Kingswood Road, Gillingham, Kent (next door)
Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham News page 15 attends the unveiling of the Invicta Medical Benefit Society's Foundation Stone for their new premises at 2A Kingswood Road
(Medway City Archives manual search)
September 28th 1935
announcement in the Supplement to the British Medical Journal page 152
"Medical Register" "Untraceable Practitioners" Correction of the Medical Register
1936 restored to the Medical Register
1939 election register 2 Kingswood Road, Gillingham, Kent (R) resident (O) occupation
(Medway City Archives manual search)
1948 Kelley's Directory Invicta Medical Benefit Society, 2A Kingswood Road, Gillingham, Kent
(Medway City Archives manual search)
1959 Kelley's Directory : 2 Kingswood Road, Gillingham Kent physician surgeon
(Medway City Archives manual search)
1964 Kelley's Directory : 2 Kingswood Road, Gillingham Kent physician surgeon
(Medway City Archives manual search)
I am not a relation to W.E.V. Lewis at all, I am attempting to trace the original Physicians who ran the Invicta Medical Benefit Society in Gillingham, Kent from 1926 onwards. All the info here has been discovered this week, there is more information on him at the Medway Archives but I ran out of time so will be going back to do more copying of microfilm when they re-open in two weeks.
Would be very interested to know more about this man, this thread has been so interesting so far thank you :)
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There is some interesting information there I did not know. I can add a little more about him:
He was born about March 1875 in or near Stourbridge, Worcestershire.
I cannot find him, or his mother and sisters in the 1881 census, though his father is listed as a married man, but at his own father's address, 11 Wood Street, Woollaston, Stourbridge. Some information I have suggests that his mother may have been born in Zurich, Switzerland, so I wonder if they were out of the contry at that time? (This is pure supposition, but may account for their apparent absence in that census)
In the 1891 census he is living at 11 Wood Street, Woollaston, Stourbridge with his grandfather, parents, sister and cousin and his occupation is listed as Scholar.
In the 1901 census he is living at 9 Chattaway Street, Ashton, Birmingham with his sister and parents and his occupation is listed as Medical Student. (Given the 1901 information above, I assume he must have been in his final year at the time the census was taken.)
Speaking to my father, he told me that William was a doctor in Gillingham until the very late 1950s (although he could not remember the addreess, he thought it was somewhere near Gillingham Station), so this ties in with the information above. However, William retired to Woodchurch, near Tenterden in Kent in about 1959/60 (my father took my mother (William's grand-daughter) down there to try and patch up the family rift (unsucessfully) in about 1960/61, a year or so after he retired there) so he was no longer practising in Gillingham by that date. (I know from my own experiences that Kelly's were not always quick to update details of regular entries, so the 1964 entry may have just been using out of date information, or it may be that he had retired from practice, but still had a connection to the business.)
I hope this is of some help.
As a foot note, there is a strange connection here as my father's grandparents also lived for a while in Kingswood Road, Gillingham before moving to Suffolk just before the first world war.