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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Suzy W on Wednesday 23 June 10 02:29 BST (UK)
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What does six years penal servitude mean? I presume that is six years locked up.
Regards
Suzy W
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Hi Suzy,
I found the following which may help
http://www.schools.bedfordshire.gov.uk/gaol/background/t&p.htm
Cheers Janette
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That is interesting. This sentence was done in Christchurch, New Zealand. I wonder what happened to him after that? A case of horse stealing back in 1875, which would of seen him hung back in England.
Suzy W
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Hi Suzy,
here is another bit of interesting reading pertaining to NZ
http://www.victoria.ac.nz/law/nzlostcases/18_Vict_9.pdf
Cheers Janette
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I wonder what happened to him after that?
Suzy W
Perhaps add his name ... and details of the case. ;)
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George Fleet sentence at Christchurch Supreme Court 8 April 1873, then again 4th Oct 1875, both convictions for Horse Stealing. (Papers Past)
Not sure if he married in 1879 as he should of been in prison. There is a George Fleet listed on NZ BMD for this date, now I wonder if it is the same man?
Have not found any death details at present.
Cheers
Suzy W
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Hi Suzy W,
Archway has a record which might pertain to him:
Ashburton District Court - Bankruptcy Minute Books - Trustees' minute books and documents - Documents only -
FLEET George, Tinwald blacksmith 29 Oct 1883-29 Oct 1883.
Would he have been alive at this time?
Regards, riley
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A George FLEET comes in NZ via from Victoria
Ship
CITY OF HOBART
Port of Departure
Melbourne
Date of Departure
11 Sep 1861
Port of Arrival
Otago
There are several in the indexes: George, George Joseph and George Thomas
BYe
Althea
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Brilliant job Althea, I had been looking for ages for the shipping record, but never thought looking at Otago.
Were his parents William and Sibby on board to make sure we have the right George.
His parents are buried down in Ashburton and there is a reference to a George buried there, but what makes me wonder if this is the right man is the age difference of 5 years.
Thanks again
Suzy W
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The George on the ship is 32 and single
What about the georges who die, which are discounted
1903/3037 Fleet George 84Y
1938/28498 Fleet George 90Y
1904/6902 Fleet George Joseph 56Y
Bye
althea
(NZ BMD)
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Not sure if he married in 1879 as he should of been in prison. .
Hi
The George FLEET buried at Ashburton, is the one who married in 1881.
George FLEET - Leonora LEMONNIER - 1881
Ashburton Cemetery
Plot 1 - 38 (RC)
George FLEET - 90 - d. 1938
Leonara [sic] - 91 - d. 1953
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NZ Death Index shows wife as >>
1953 - FLEET - Leonora Hester - 91 years
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Can see just one birth for this couple. ???
1941 / 70843
FLEET - Herbert Stanley
Parents : Lenora [sic] Hester and George
[Seems birth was a late registration (1941) ]
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Now this is interesting. :D
NZ Death
1975
FLEET - Herbert Stanley - c.k.a. Rafess Joseph - d.o.b. 12 May 1909
and ...
Ashburton Cemetery
Rafess Joseph FLEET - d. 1975 - 65 years
Leila Ward FLEET - d. 1999 - 85 years
both in Plot 1 - 860 (Anglican)
[Plus child Vivian Rafess FLEET - 5 months - d. 1939 - Plot 1 - 4 ]
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Suzy ... did George FLEET have siblings ... if so, do you know their names ?
~ Lu
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This is off-topic, but, I feel I must stick-up for the British judicial system.!!!!!! "Back in England" in 1875 a case of horse-stealing would not automatically result in a hanging!- it would depend on the previous as they say!
Sally
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Yes sad
Read NZ court cases,,,we wouldn't have any one left, we were at times a very unlawful lot or perhaps people just were sent to court alot more than what they were today
Bye
Althea
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Good Morning.
George Fleet was born Nov 1853, Hobart, Australia. That is why I thought the shipping record looked promising, but his age is way off at 32, our George would of been about 8 years old.
I know the family must of came to New Zealand between 1855 and 1860, I have checked many records coming into Lyttelton, Wellington, and a few into Auckland. (no Luck)
His mother had a unusual name of Sibby or Sabina, father was William. (ex Convicts from Hobart)
I found George's occupation as Shoe Smith 1897 New Brighton Railway then he moved to Tinwald, Ashburton.
The Ashburton Cemetery records puts his death 5 years older than he should be! Now I am wondering if this George of 1853 died and William and Sibby had another son named George a few years later?
NZ BMD does not give parents names (William and Sibby) with the births for this Fleet family. I have found Joseph Bernard, Henry William, Harriet Barbra, Marie Anne, and possible a Louisa all born in Halswell, near Christchurch, New Zealand.
I have been able to track Joseph Bernard's side easy, It is just those early records that do not reveal much for William and Sibby.
I wonder if George completed his full sentence? Two possible marriages Mary Ann Travener 1879 and of course Lenora Lemonnier 1881 who would fit in nicely after his release from prison.
I think we are right with the burials in Ashburton, it is the age of George which is conflicting.
Cheers
Suzy W
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George Fleet was born Nov 1853, Hobart, Australia.
Hi
May I ask where you got this "birth record" from ?
A couple of things to remember. ;)
* Ages shown on death records, are not always strictly accurate.
* Shipping records / passenger lists for travel to NZ are not complete ... particularly those where travel emanated from Australia. (Of the trans-Tasman lists that are available, many do not state all passengers names - numerous lists simply state "XX number of passengers in steerage". )
~ Lu
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In one of the Court reports concerning George FLEET, there are several persons (including a school master) giving evidence, that they have known him since he was a "child".
* Maybe there is a school record available which may clarify things further - (e.g. date of birth) ?
~ Lu
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This is off-topic, but, I feel I must stick-up for the British judicial system.!!!!!! "Back in England" in 1875 a case of horse-stealing would not automatically result in a hanging!- it would depend on the previous as they say!
Sally
Hi Sally
Fair call. :) But New Zealand of course, in its early years, came under this same British judicial system. ;)
~ Lu
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Ooops ... double up of information (now deleted by me). :-[
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Now I am wondering if this George of 1853 died and William and Sibby had another son named George a few years later?
The NZ death record of either parent, should give an indication as to the ages of surviving children ... (and also note "years spent in NZ" - which may help in determining more precisely, when they arrived.)
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Thanks Lucy.
The Tasmanian govt records give Georges date of birth. So he was really 95 when he died not 90 years.
I was having a senior moment this morning and thinking the age was the other way ???
I am positive the children went to Halswell Primary school, as a few little results have shown on papers past.
Would this school still hold old records? Or do I have to go into archives?
I wonder with these new shipping records that are due for release will have more details regarding ships between NZ and our Australian neighbors?
Well we have made a few more little steps.
Thanks again.
Suzy W
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I am positive the children went to Halswell Primary school, as a few little results have shown on papers past.
Would this school still hold old records? Or do I have to go into archives?
Hi Suzy
Yes, pretty sure the Halswell School records are available (I know I have some - will check for dates.)
Somebody here might be able to help further though (many of the records are on CD). :)
* Did you check Tasmanian shipping records (on their Archives site)? I know there are a few lists which give details of persons travelling to Victoria (from where they would depart for NZ) ... although many vessels also called at Hobart and then went directly to NZ.
~ Lu
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I will have to go back and look at the Tasmanian records again. Head is starting to spin.
Cheers
Suzy W
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The Tasmanian govt records give Georges date of birth. So he was really 95 when he died not 90 years.
Whoops .... missed that earlier. :D
The George FLEET at Ashburton Cemetery, died 1938 - supposedly aged 90 years - giving a birth year of 1848 (by my reckoning).
So if he was in fact born 1853, then at death (1938) his aged would have been 85 (rather than 95). ;D
It seems very likely then that his death age on NZ records, is incorrect.
(I see the Tasmanian "Permission to Marry" record, shows William FLEET and Sibby COLLINS - 16 April 1850.)
Have checked the TAS (Archives) shipping lists - but there was nothing helpful (they are very, very, limited in detail). :(
~ Lu
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Hi Suzy
It appears that Halswell School records are only available from 1880 - so too late for your FLEET family unfortunately. :(
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Honestly I think I am going potty, can not add up very well today.
I wonder if they lied about his age when convicted with his theft, so taking 5 years off his age may of allowed him a lighter sentence? And he kept on saying he was 5 years younger.
Just been into the archives myself and got nowhere, so their departure is going to remain a mystery for some time. I am sure it will be between 1855 and 1860 or 1857 as Louisa was born 1857 in NZ.
Better call it a day. Mind going silly, must be the cold.
Suzy W
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Hi theres a brother George listed on the "Founders and survivors" site Tasmania This might be useful Often brothers immigrated later
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A little more on the Fleet kids:
The youngest daughter of William and Sabina Fleet is Miriam (Marie Ann or Mary Ann) may have been born 1859 - 1864.
Miriam Fleet is my 2 x Grandmother.
Miriam married Edward Dartnall O'Neil in 1882.
Their son Edward Harold O'Neill (Great Grandfather) married my Great Grandmother Ida Emery
Ida and Edward O'Neill had a daughter - Shirley O'Neill (my Grandmother) in Saint Andrews
Shirley O'Neill married Colin John King (Temuka)
Shirley and Colin had a daughter - Carol Ida King
Carol Ida married Robin White
I am the daught of Carol and Robin (Bob) - Timaru
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Hello Caraloft ... welcome to RootsChat. :)
A little more on the Fleet kids:
The youngest daughter of William and Sabina Fleet is Miriam (Marie Ann or Mary Ann) may have been born 1859 - 1864.
Miriam Fleet is my 2 x Grandmother.
Just thought I'd let you know of the following RC baptism.
This is from the - "Catholic Diocese of Christchurch - Baptism Database - V1.2" : Index only, giving Name / Parish / Date of Baptism. [Baptismal certificates are available from Catholic Archives in ChCh - cost (now) I think is about $10. ]
Four children of Sabina and William FLEET were baptised together on 29 May 1857 at Cathedral parish ... and another 3 in 1858/1860/1861 : The following is very likely your Miriam (Mary Ann) ?
FLEET - Mary Ann - baptised 2 June 1860 - Parish Cathedral
~ Lu
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A little more on the Fleet kids:
The youngest daughter of William and Sabina Fleet is Miriam (Marie Ann or Mary Ann) may have been born 1859 - 1864.
Miriam Fleet is my 2 x Grandmother.
Miriam married Edward Dartnall O'Neil in 1882.
Their son Edward Harold O'Neill (Great Grandfather) married my Great Grandmother Ida Emery
Ida and Edward O'Neill had a daughter - Shirley O'Neill (my Grandmother) in Saint Andrews
Shirley O'Neill married Colin John King (Temuka)
Shirley and Colin had a daughter - Carol Ida King
Carol Ida married Robin White
I am the daught of Carol and Robin (Bob) - Timaru
My mother in-law is a Fleete by birth, the "e" was added later by her side of the family. Her line is from Joseph Fleet born 1861, then Percy, then Leo.
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Hi Suzy!
I figured Joseph's had added added the 'e' to Fleet ... well i made that assumption when looking at NZ BDM, it was the only thing that made sense. Not entirely sure where they felt the need to change their name
I live a stone throw from Fleete Street in Avondale when i drove past it a few weeks ago after learning that my Great Great Grandmother was a Fleet and i had already found Joseph and Percy plus some other family members i figured what's the chance? I googled about the history of Fleete St and sure enough it was named after Percival Lonsdale Fleete.
A few weeks ago i stumbled across a marriage certificate that was for my Great Grandfather and Great Grandmother O'Neill and on the certificate was Miriam Fleet after having my family tree wrong at this point for the past couple of years. So Miriam and Edward Dartnall O'Neill lived in Saint Andrews south of Timaru. They had three children: Edward Harold, Irene Vivian Moncrieff & Vivien Walderma (who died as a baby).
It made sense because my great aunties middle name was Miriam and my Grandmother's middle name was Irene, not sure where Vivian and the other unusual names come from, but i'm guessing they are somewhere further up the line.
The Conviction Records on William and Sabina that i found are rather interesting as well:
https://convictrecords.com.au/convicts/fleet/william/56913
https://convictrecords.com.au/convicts/collins/sabina/129683
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Hello Caraloft ... welcome to RootsChat. :)
A little more on the Fleet kids:
The youngest daughter of William and Sabina Fleet is Miriam (Marie Ann or Mary Ann) may have been born 1859 - 1864.
Miriam Fleet is my 2 x Grandmother.
Just thought I'd let you know of the following RC baptism.
This is from the - "Catholic Diocese of Christchurch - Baptism Database - V1.2" : Index only, giving Name / Parish / Date of Baptism. [Baptismal certificates are available from Catholic Archives in ChCh - cost (now) I think is about $10. ]
Four children of Sabina and William FLEET were baptised together on 29 May 1857 at Cathedral parish ... and another 3 in 1858/1860/1861 : The following is very likely your Miriam (Mary Ann) ?
FLEET - Mary Ann - baptised 2 June 1860 - Parish Cathedral
~ Lu
Hi Lucy,
Sorry, i almost missed your reply. Thank you for replying with that info ;-)
I am guessing the entry in the NZ BDM Births dated 1859 with the name NR (No Record) is most likely Miriam's birth record.
The more time i spend looking through the NZ BDM the more i am finding how much is wrong on there.... guess that is what happens when you digitise the old records.
I only have 4 x Fleet children's names from William and Sibby:
- George
- Louisa
- Miriam
- Joseph Bernard
I searched for 'Catholic Diocese of Christchurch - Baptism Database - V1.2' and could only find references to records being on a CD
Are there any digital records?
I use mostly Familysearch and The Ancestry Library.
I had a sub to Myheritage but i found between FamilySearch and the Ancestry Library i was getting better results so stopped using Myheritage.
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I am guessing the entry in the NZ BDM Births dated 1859 with the name NR (No Record) is most likely Miriam's birth record.
The NR actually means "Not Recorded" (i.e. the forename(s) of the child, were not recorded at time the birth was registered.)
Yes, the 1859 record at NZ BDM online, is very likely the child baptised as Mary Ann FLEET in 1860.
[ This child has a birthdate of "02 December 1859" : birthdate deduced from NZ BDM online birth registration listing -- see here for further details on how to do this > https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=745785.0 ]
I simply gave you the information about the baptism record being available because - unlike the birth registration at NZ BDM - it gives the child's full name. If you chose to purchase the baptism certificate, (at a much lesser cost than a birth registration "printout" from NZ BDM) you'd have more
complete official record.
I searched for 'Catholic Diocese of Christchurch - Baptism Database - V1.2' and could only find references to records being on a CD
Are there any digital records?
Apologies, mention of (Catholic Baptism Database) being on CD was omitted from my reference to it when I went back to add a correction to the title of this resource.
So yes, it's on CD (available for searching at some libraries/repositories in NZ) or the Catholic Archives at Christchurch sell the CD. But as explained previously, it is only an index - from which you can make an application (to Catholic Archives) for a copy of the baptism record.
There are no online digital records.
~ Lu
Added : Here is a link to Catholic Archives in Christchurch >
https://archives.chchcatholic.nz/about-the-archives/research/
Scroll down to "Research Section" > Research Fees : There is a contact link further down page.
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[quote author=Lucy2 link=to ....
Ooops ... sorry -- I have removed this information which was a double-up, posted in error. ::) ;D
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[[ I am guessing the entry in the NZ BDM Births dated 1859 with the name NR (No Record) is most likely Miriam's birth record. ]]
The more time i spend looking through the NZ BDM the more i am finding how much is wrong on there.... guess that is what happens when you digitise the old records.
Not quite sure what you're meaning about ... "NZ BDM ... how much is wrong on there ..." ??
Question : What are you comparing NZ BDM's records with ... and what exactly is wrong ???
Remember that these are only Index listings which are viewable on the NZ BDM website (and from time to time spelling errors may crop up). ;) You need to purchase a record (* "printout" recommended) to get all the information available.
These are official records - primary sources of BD&M information, in genealogy/family history - considered to be more accurate (and although not precluded from having an error, this is an uncommon occurrence).
[Some helpful info at this link >
https://www.thegenealogyassistant.com/index.php/store/three-brushes-with-death/43-news/blog-posts/314-what-are-primary-a-secondary-sources ]
[ * If purchasing records from NZ BDM, we recommend ordering the "printout" version - a copy of the register entry (rather than certificates which have transcribed information).
~ Lu
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I live a stone throw from Fleete Street in Avondale when i drove past it a few weeks ago after learning that my Great Great Grandmother was a Fleet and i had already found Joseph and Percy plus some other family members i figured what's the chance? I googled about the history of Fleete St and sure enough it was named after Percival Lonsdale Fleete.
.... not though Fleet Street in Avondale.
The Fleete Street named for Percy Lonsdale FLEETE is in Christchurch. ;)