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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Craven-Harrison on Wednesday 16 June 10 03:15 BST (UK)
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It's 93 years since AIF Captain Albert Edward Harrison disappeared in England after being Court Martialled in Tidworth England by the Australian Army in 1917.
He was the Commanding Officer of the AIF Hardening and Drafting Camp at Perham Downs. Following his dismissal he joined the British Regular Forces, confirmation of his service through records or his eventual fate remain a mystery. Perhaps intentionally?
One fact is certain, he never returned to Australia and some of his AIF Military history has mysteriously disappeared from the archives.
After significant research in both Australia and the UK he remains an enigma, It's possible that he changed his name to avoid the inquision and search. Perhaps he was killed in action and buried as an unknown soldier or perhaps under an assumed name, He joined the Regular British Army as a T-2/Lt.
If the name or story jogs a memory, I would be really happy to hear from anybody with an idea, a lead, or a possible connection
Many Thanks
Ian ::)
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Was he known to have ever married? A marriage would help the search. If so what was his wife's name?
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G'day Barry,
yes! he did have an Australian wife and four children, but never returned to them after his discharge from the AIF in England. His Australian wife Nora , the Aus PM's office and the NSW Premier were all after him to return to Australia and were unable to do so. He failed to meet his transport ship back to Australia.
In response to his wife's many requests for information regarding his disappearance, a "Form Of Commission" was sent from the AIF in England, describing that he had joined the British Regular Forces, this was received in 1920 nothing was ever heard from him again.
It was thought that he might have had a love interest in London and this could have led to his demise and subsequent disappearance.
I am unable to determine his fate or movements after the receipt of the info from a well meaning AIF officer in London in 1920
Where to from here?
Ian
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A found an interesting divorce in 1919 from English/Welsh Court records in the National Archives. An Albert Edward Harrison divorced his wife Florence Gladys [Midlane?]. They probably married in the Norwich (England) area before WWI. My guess is that your Albert Edward did not divorce because that would mean his wife in Australia would have to be contacted. Plus of course in those days it would have been his wife in Australia who would have had to start off the divorce for his desertion. Did the wife ever have him declared dead?
I found no evidence that he joined the British Army as an officer as that would have been pulished in the London Gazette. Unless he had a new or modified name.
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Hi Ian,
Welcome to Rootschat!
What year was Albert born?
Karen
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Hi Barry,
Albert arrived in Egypt in 1915 where he was the Transport officer for the 19th Battalion AIF, supporting and training others during the Gallipoli campaign in Turkey.
He arrived in England during 1916, I'm pretty sure that any personal liaison would have occurred during 1916 or 1917 while he was convalescing at a London hospital following sickness and injury received in combat.
I'm thinking that Florence and Albert are another two Harrison's in trouble with matrimonial matters and not AEH ex AIF
I don't believe that his wife Nora ever sought a divorce. I agree with you that for Albert to persue a divorce would have revealed his location and potentially his new identity (if he had one), perhaps, better to start a new life?! He was never declared dead in Australia.
The Gazette does mention him as being dismissed from the service:
War Office,
29th September, 1917.
REGULAR FORCES.
OVERSEA CONTINGENTS.
AUSTRALIA.
INFANTRY.
Capt. A. E. Harrison is dismissed the
Service by sentence of a General Court-
Martial. 28 Aug. 1917.
There are several other 2/Lt and T-2/Lt A Harrison's occurring in the Gazette and these are possabilities I guess. It is definite that he was commissioned as a Temporary T-2/Lt in the British Regular Forces. And I have often thought that maybe this description is really telling us that he joined the permanent army and his records may not be with the WW1 British conscrip-tees or volunteers who ceased being in the Military when the War finished.
The correspondence from the AIF describing Albert as being Commissioned in the UK Army was an official document and is present in his AIF records.
I've always believed that he couldn't get a Commission unless he used his correct name and Commission documents, so, as you suggest we should see his Commission in the Gazette, but, men were scarce let alone Officers. Perhaps he might have made himself an Alfred Ernest Harrison or another one of a dozen permutations and I'm thinking that he was obviously pretty good at telling a fib or two!
So, I agree "a new or modified name" is quite on the cards, but how do I decide what it might be without an obvious lead or clue???
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Hi Karen,
thanks for the welcome, I should have done it years ago!
Albert was born in 1879 in Richmond Victoria Australia, the youngest surviving son of William and Kate Harrison, one of 18 children, He was my great uncle.
When he married Nora Blamey he moved his age up by three years to 1876, I'm guessing to appear to be older as Nora was older than him by a similar age.
Interestingly, he made the same calculated age adjustment when he joined the Military and then amazingly there were further permutations when he was being court martialled.
I guess the old adage "if you're going to lie you need a good memory" is relevant with this fellow.
???
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Some additional info regarding the London Gazette entries, obviously some can't possibly be the right person given the conflicting dates, but necessary for tracking purposes There are some duplications and possible alternate names that could have been used as aliases. There are numerous spelling mistakes due to nature of the OCR transcription. I believe I have some more and I'm searching for them. They are not in any logical sequence or date order yet!! I've broken the list into three given the size restrictions
Any ideas how this information could be used or compared or checked, against other documents, perhaps Officers records or MIC's etc??
10954 SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 13 NOVEMBER, 1916.
Temp. 2nd Lt. A. Harrison, D.S.O., from
N. Lan. R.
2332 SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 26 FEBRUARY, 19202nd Vol. Bn., The Notts, de Derby. Regt.—
Temp. Capt. & 2nd in Command A. Harrison
relinquishes1 his: commission, 13th Nov.
1919, .and'is granted the hon. rank of Ca.pt.
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 16 MARCH, 1918. 3363
W. Bid. B.
Temp. Capt. A. P. Harrison, M.C., from
a Serv. Bn., to be temp. Capt. 31 Jan.
1918, with seniority 29 June 1915.
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 16 MAKCH, 1918. 3363
N. Lan. E.
Temp. 2nd Lt. A. Harrison, D.S.O., to
be temp. Lt. 1 July 1917.
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 29 APRIL, 1921. 3511
INFANTRY.
E. Scats.
7th (D.F.) Bn.—
To be temp. Capts. : —
9 Apr. 1921.
T. D. Wilson.
J. N. Shaw.
A. Harrison
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 20 JUNE, 1921. 4901 INFANTRY.
R. Scots.
7th (D.F.) Bn.—
The undermemtioned relinquish their
commissions from the dates stated: —
Temp. Capt. A. Harrison. 22 Apr. 1921.
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 7 MAY, 1919. 5757
24th Bn., London Regt.—
Capt. A. Harrison, Mi.C'., to be <a-ctg.
Miaj. whilst empld. as 2nd in Command.
25th Feb. 1919.
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 4 JULY, 1917. 6651
The undermentioned to be temp. Lts.: —
Temp. 2nd Lt. A. Harrison relinquishes
his commn. on account of ill-health. 5th
July 1917.
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 13 OCTOBER, 1921. 8061
Loyal E.
Temp.. Lt. A. Harrison, DS.O., and is
Granted 'the-rank of Cap't.
9314 SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 23 SEPTEMBER, 1916.
W. York. E.
Temp. 2nd Lt. A. Harrison relinquishes
his commission on account of'ill-health. 24
Sept. 1916.
11238 SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 20 NOVEMBER, 1916,
The undermentioned to be acting Capts.
whilst comdg. a Trench Mortar Batt.: —
Temp. 2nd Lt. A. Harrison, D.S.O. 6th
July 1916.
11642 SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 10 NOVEMBER, 1917-
N. Lan. E.
Temp. 2nd Lt. A. Harrison; from Gen_
List, to be temp. 2nd Lt. (attd.). 29 Sept.
1917, with seniority 17 Sept. 1914.
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 6 DECEMBEE, 1916. 11927
INFANTRY.
Royal Scots.—
2nd Lt. (temp. Capt.) A. Harrison to be
Lt. (temp. Capt.). 29th June 1915.
12348 THE LONDON GAZETTE, 19 DECEMBER, 1916,
INFANTRY.
Royal Scots.—
Lt. (temp. Capt.) A. Harrison relinquishes
the temp, rank of Capt., with precedence
as from 29th June 1915, and is
seconded for duty with the M.G.C. 4th
Dec. 1916.
13224 SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 29 OCTOBER, 1919
ROYAL FIELD ARTILLERY
The under mentioned 2nd Lte. to be
Lts.: — A. Harrison. 25th Aug. 1919.
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 9 JANUARY, 1922. 271
INFANTRY.
24:th Bn., Lond. R. — Mar). A. Harrison, M.C.
(late of this unit), to foe Capt., next below
Capt. H. J. Sianders, D..S.0., M.C., and
relinquishes the rank of Maj. 22nd Dec.
19.2,1.
9314 SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 23 SEPTEMBER, 1916.
War Office,
23rd September, 1916.
REGULAR FORCES W. York. E.
Temp. 2nd Lt. A. Harrison relinquishes
his commission on account of' ill-health. 24
Sept. 1916.
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 10 JANUARY, 1922. 349
War Office,
10th January, 1922.
TERRITORIAL ARMY. INFANTRY.
7th Bn., R. Sco\ts.-, Capt. A. Harrison resigns
5iis commn., llth Jan. 1922, and retains the
rank of Capt.
24thBn Lon Reg. —'Capt. A. Harrison, M'.C.,
to have precedence .as from 1st June 1916,
next below 'C'apt. & Bt. Maj. C'. J. Saunders,
M.C.
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 24 MARCH, 1922. 2499
INFANTRY.
7th Bn., B. Scots.—Capt. A. Harrison resigns
his commn., llth Jan. 1922, and is granted
the rank 'of Maj. (Substituted for that
which appeared in the Gazette'of 10th Jan.
1922.)
3118 THE LONDON GAZETTE, 30 MARCH, 1917.
W.York R
Temp. 2nd Lt. A. Harrison relinquishes
his commission on account of ill-health, and
is granted the hon. rank of 2nd Lt. 24
Sept. 1916. (Substituted for notification in
Gaz. of 23 Sept. 1916.)
5346 SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 10 MAY, 1920
INFANTRY.
Lt. A. Harrison, M.C., retires, receiving
a gratuity, llth May 1920.
THE LONDON GAZETTE, 21 JULY, 1922. 5437
INDIAN ARMY RESERVE OF
OFFIOEBiS
Tlhe KING has approved the retirement of
the following officers u^deor the provisions1 of
the Royal Warrant dated 25th April 1922: —
INDIAN ARMY.
Lieutenants:—
A. Harrison. 12tih! June 1922.
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 17 MAY, 1919. 6215
Sea. Highrs. — Bt.
The undermentioned 2nd Lts. to be
Lts. : —
E. Kent R.—A. Harrison, ivi.C. 28th Feb.
1919.
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The second section of London Gazette listings for possible Harrison Officers
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 28 JULY, 1918. 8575 The undermentioned 2nd Lts. to be
Lts. : —
Suff. E.—A. Harrison, M.C. 19th June 1918.
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 15 SEPTEMBER, 1917. 9551
INFANTRY.
Royal. Scots.—Lt. A. Harrison to be Capt.,
with precedence as from 1st June 1916, next
below Capt. T. G. Clark, and to remain
seconded, M.G.C. 29th July 1917.
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE.. 16 AUGUST, 1918. 9551 Temp. 2nd Lt. A. Harrison relinquishes
his commn. on account of ill-health, and is
granted the hon. rank of 2nd Lt. 5tlh July
1917. (Substituted for the notification in
the Gazette of 4th July 1917.)
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 23 OCTOBER, 1916. 10269
London Regt.—
2nd Lt. (temp. Capt.) A. Harrison to be
Lt. (temp. Capt.). 2nd Oct. 1916.
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 3 NOVEMBER, 1917 11429
War Office,
3rd November, ]917
REGULAR FORCES,
The under mentioned Candidates nominated
for Commissions in the Regular Army
under paragraph 3 of Army Order 295 of
1916, as amended by Army Orders 167 and
293 of 1917 —
WITH SENIORITY AS STATED AGAINST THEIR NAMES
CAVALRY
To be 2nd Lts , and To relinquish, their
higher rank, where specified, and present
seniority on ceasing to do duty with their
present units — Dns —Lt Henry Harrison 4th Sept 1917
11510 SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 28 SEPTEMBER, 1918
War Office,
28th September, 1918.
REGULAR FORCES.
COMMANDS AND STAFF
PERSONAL STAFF
The under mentioned appts. are made : —
Lt. (temp. Capt.) R. P. Harrison, Gen. List. 9th Aug. 1918
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 4 OCTOBER, 1919 12391
Lt. R. Harrison relinquishes his commission
on. ceasing to be employed., 29tfli Aug.
1919, and retains the rank of Lt.
SATURDAY, 19 SEPTEMBER, 1914.
War Office,
19th September, 1914.
REGULAR FORCES.
Staff Captains—
Major A. E. Harrison, Reserve of Officers. Dated 24th August, 1914.
6414 SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 28 JUNE, 1916.
ATTACHED TO HD.-QR. UNITS.
vice Maj. A. E. Harrison, Res. of Off. 8th May 1916.
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 20 SEPTEMBER, 1917. 9741
Temp. 2nd Lt. A. Harrison, D.S.O. 29th July 1917.
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 29 SEPTEMBER, 1917. 10121
War Office,
29th September, 1917.
REGULAR FORCES.
OVERSEA CONTINGENTS.
AUSTRALIA.
INFANTRY.
Capt. A. E. Harrison is dismissed the
Service by sentence of a General Court- Martial. 28 Aug. 1917.
11642 SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 10 NOVEMBER, 1917-
War Office,
10th November, 1917.
REGULAR FORCES,
INFANTRY.
N. Lan. E.
Temp. 2nd Lt. A. Harrison; from Gen_
List, to be temp. 2nd Lt. (attd.). 29 Sept.
1917, with seniority 17 Sept. 1914.
12880 SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 10 DECEMBER, 1917.
Temp. 2nd Lt. A. Harrison, D.S.O., relinquishes
the actg. rank of Capt. on ceasing
to comd. a Trench Mortar Batt. 14th July
1917. (Substituted for the notification in
the Gazette of 20th Sept. 1917.)
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 16 MARCH, 1918. 3363
War Office,
16th March, 1918.
REGULAR FORCES. INFANTRY (ATTD.).
N. Lan. E.
Temp. 2nd Lt. A. Harrison, D.S.O., to be temp. Lt. 1 July 1917.
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And a third section
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 25 MARCH, 1918. 3721
Capt. A. Harrison to be actg. Lt.-Col.
whilst comdg. Bn. from 19th Dec. to 24th
Jan. 1918
SUPPLEMENT TO THB LONDON GAZETTE, 6 APRIL, 1918 4257
Capt. A. Harrison to be 2nd in Command,
and to be actg. Maj. whilst so empld. 24th
Jan. 1918.
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 27 MAY, 1918. 6193
Capt A. Harrison relinquishes the actg
rank of Maj. on ceasing to be empld as 2nd
in Command 10th Mar 1918
8298 SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 16 JULY, 1918.
Capt. A. Harrison (R. Scots, T.F.). 22
Apr. 1918.
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 28 JULY, 1918. 8575
The undermentioned 2nd Lts. to be
Lts. : — Suff. E.—A. Harrison, M.C. 19th June 1918.
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE.. 16 AUGUST, 1918. 9551
Temp. 2nd Lt. A. Harrison relinquishes
his commn. on account of ill-health, and is
granted the hon. rank of 2nd Lt. 5tlh July
1917. (Substituted for the notification in
the Gazette of 4th July 1917.)
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 12 SEPTEMBER, 1918. 10735
Capt. (actg. Maj.) A. Harrison (R. Scots, T.F.).
11412 SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 26 SEPTEMBER, 1918..
The undermentioned temp. 2nd Lts. to
be temp. 2nd Lts. on appt. as probrs. to
Ind. Army:— A. Harrison, from Ches. R. (attd.) 14
Aug. 1918, with seniority 29 Aug. 1917.
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 7 MAY, 1919. 5757
Capt. A. Harrison, Mi.C'., to be <a-ctg.
Miaj. whilst empld. as 2nd in Command. 25th Feb. 1919.
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 17 MAY, 1919. 6215
The undermentioned 2nd Lts. to be
Lts. : — E. Kent R.—A. Harrison, inf.C. 28th Feb. 1919.
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 6 AUGUST, 1919. 1C063
24:th B'n., London Regt.—Capt. (actg. Maj.)
A. Harrison, M.C., relinquishes the actg. rank of Maj. on ceasing to be empld. 17th July 1919.
THE LONDON GAZETTE, 30 SEPTEMBER, I919.
Second Lieutenants to be Lieutenants. A Harrison,
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 15 OCTOBER, 1919. 12743
Bedf. & Herts. R. .51st Bn.—
Lt. A. E. Harrison (4th Bn., Norf. R-T.F.) to be actg. C'apt. while comndg. a Co. .12 May 1919.
13224 SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 29 OCTOBER, 1919
ROYAL FIELD ARTILLERY.
The under mentioned 2nd Lte. to be Lts.: — A. Harrison. 25th Aug. 1919
2332 SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 26 FEBRUARY, 1920
VOLTJNTEER FORCE.
2nd Vol. Bn., The Notts, de Derby. Regt.—
Temp. Capt. & 2nd in Command A. Harrison
Relinquishes his: commission, 13th Nov.
1919,.and is granted the hon. rank of Ca.pt.
5346 SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 10 MAY, 1920.
INFANTRY.
Lt. A. Harrison, M.C., retires, receiving a gratuity, llth May 1920.
SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 20 JUNE, 1921. 4901
War Office,
20th Jtwe, 1921.
DEFENCE FORCE.
REGULAR FORCE.S.
INFANTRY.
R. Scots.
7th (D.F.) Bn.—
The undermemtioned relinquish their
commissions from the dates stated: —
Temp. Capt. A. Harrison. 22 Apr. 1921.
THE LONDON GAZETTE, 20 JUNE, 1924. 4809
INFANTRY.
1th Bn. Midd'x. R.—The surname of 2nd Lt.
A. E. Harrisson is as now described and not
as in Gaz. dated 3rd June 1924.
THE LONDON GAZETTE, 3 JUNE, 1924. 4439
INFANTRY.
1th Bn. Midd'x R.—Alfred Ernest Harrison.
4th June 1924.
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Barry,
I just recalled the information regarding the divorce you mentioned earlier from some time ago. the Wife Florence Gladys Harrison, Husband Albert Edward Harrison and co-respondent-Arthur Fielding, I found my original info about these folk and decided at the time that it was unlikely that they would have married during the war 1917-19 and subsequently divorced in that same period. I will never the less follow this lead up again as it keeps cropping up. Unfortunately there are lots of Albert Edward's and Harrison's.
anything is possible, !!!!!
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I've read his 86 sheets (well many are duplicated) of service record - I thought my grandfather had a lot with 60 odd!
How do you know he joined the British army? I might have missed it but I couldn't see anything sent to his wife saying this. The poor woman was obviously desperate to know where he was as she was in financial difficulties.
To be honest, he really didn't have a hard war. He was shaky and couldn't sleep after being at the front (who wouldn't be?) got influenza, bronchitis and a poisoned left knee (described as superficial) and ended up with what many would have called a cushy job in training camp. Then he went AWOL and also stole money - I'm not honestly surprised he was court marshalled but he got off very lightly by being simply dismissed and forefitting 87 days pay. I don't see why having treated the A.I.F so badly he'd then have wanted to join the British Army? I could understand him adopting a false name and disappearing, but it was tougher in the British Army - less pay for a start.
I'm sorry if I sound a bit hard on him but my grandfather was quite badly wounded and worse happened to his friends and I know he wouldn't have thought much of Albert Edward Harrisons actions :(
Carole
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Dear Carol, (part 1)
I have shared your sentiments regarding Albert's behaviour and often thought that he isn't worth the trouble. Then after reviewing the records and the family discussions I began to see the bigger picture.
At this point I should say that I no longer judge him and have undertaken this quest to settle the question of his fate for his surviving family and for the memory of his wife and four children since departed. This quest is for the sake of history and to hopefully establish that somehow he was able to reverse his circumstances and regain his pride and his self respect again. I am well aware how all this looks, I am certain that if he had been guilty of these things in the British Military he would have been executed. I will speak more of this later.
The 60 pages that you have read is just a brief insight into Albert's Military history, there is so much more. Looking at his WW1 AIF Military history in isolation would not give a good impression of this man. The prosecution case against Albert is compelling but he offered NO defense at his Court Martial, so there appears to be no other conclusion than absolute guilt on all counts. Make no mistake, he was capable of defending himself and could have mounted a ripping defence. He did get a fair trial. Due to the serious nature of this trial the convening authority was Lieutenant General Sir Henry Sclator, Commander-in Chief Southern Command UK and Brigadier General John Antill AIF was president of the court and nine other AIF Officers.
Albert is not a Bank Clerk masquerading as an Army Officer, promoted in the field because all his superiors were killed. As a lad in Australia whilst enjoying an academic scholarship at South Melbourne Colledge he quickly became the Colour Sergent in the senior Cadets. During the Boer War he served with the 5th Victorian Mounted Rifles as a Sergent and between the wars he served in the Militia as a senior NCO, He was Commissioned as an Officer on the 5th of May 1915, He served Gallantly in France an Belgium. During his trial Major General Holmes commended him in writing for his bravery and gallentry under fire. Albert was a professional Soldier and fine Military Horseman.
The question regarding Albert joining the British Army follows:
Under cover of an official AIF "form of Commission" an inter-communications card in his military records: " I forward herewith a form of commission covering the appointment of your husband Ex Captain AE Harrison 19th Battalion, as a Temporary 2nd Lieutenant in the Regular Forces of the British Army, for transmission to him. This refers to his first appointment to Commission and not to his subsequent rank" Will you kindly let me know whether same comes safely to hand by signing and returning the attached receipt form" "Officer I/C base records". sent on Oct 10th 1919 and acknowledged by Nora Oct 24th 1919.
Albert was moved from Perham Downs to Army Headquarters London a few days after his trial, It appears not just cut loose as a Civilian. Almost a year later June 13th 1918 He applies to AIF Administrative Headquarters Westminster London for Discharge in England and he is instructed that his final discharge will be August 28th 1918 He was supposedly dismissed a year earlier to the day, his birthday??! he was also married on his birthday!
The Stolen money:
Albert had overdrawn his pay on two occasions amounting to 40 pounds, the Pay Master was aware of this action and there was written evidence of the withdrawals. The Pay Master and the company pays were under Albert's authority.
The AWOL issue:
Albert had requested to take urgent leave in London to attend to urgent, important and extremely private business, His superior a Major had denied this leave, Albert went above the Major and obtained verbal permission from the Major's superior. Albert took the leave under the impression that all was now OK, and it wasn't he didn't have the appropriate leave form
The Escaping from Custody:
Upon his return, Albert was placed under guard in barracks, while in detention he left the barracks and went to Andover apparently to make a phone call, this was officially regarded as escaping from custody. He was apprehended without any violence and at this point was heard to say, "I know what I'm doing, I am full up of this game, I'm going home" Albert was to be sent back to the front in the next few days, it was common for Officers and men to have some time off if required, to finalise any personal outstanding personal affairs, debts etc, This wasn't an official arrangement but something that was just done. An Officers life was not a long one when leading men from the front, so some leeway was given to these personal arrangements. Importantly illistrated here is Albert's interest to return back to Australia and his family. We believe that the stigma and circumstances of his Dismissal changed his interest to return home. There is no evedance of another woman just a suspicion.
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Dear Carole, (part 2)
Possible motive for putting his career on the line:
Albert's brother in law Private Sydney Blamey was in England and France at the same time as Albert. He had won a The Military Medal and then been broken from a Seargent to a private. His crime sheet is very lengthy. It has been considered that Albert took and advance on his wages to bail his brother in law out of trouble to avoid a scandal not realising that his own deeds would end up being bigger. Syd committed suicide some years later in Australia and it's thought that it could have been over his arrangements with Albert and Albert's subsequent Dismissal and the disaster for his sister and the children. Syd's records have the entire details of Albert's Court Martial crimes included in his records for some reason, suggesting some connection.
The Trial and the Sentence:
Under the circumstances Albert got a fair trial and a reasonable outcome, and when you consider what he said in Andover he was over the war and wanted to go home or get out, he got his wish. Its important at this point to say that nearly all Australians were Volunteers and not fighting for King and Country but rather to support their mates and their ancestral families in the UK, their Tommy Pals (your grandfather and his mates). The Australian Government had rejected the business of the firing squad for trivial offences after the shonkey business in the Boer War with Breaker Morant. We now regard shell shock as a real and significant mental and physical complaint and thankfully the Australian Army didn't execute its suffers.
Albert didn't put up any defence and wasn't questioned regarding any of his alledged crimes, it's quite obvious that there is something occurring here that is outside our contemporary understanding. He didn't put any of his previous Military experience in his pre-trial prosecution notes nor any defence notes. He would not disclose the nature of his urgent business in London nor any of his reasons for the actions that he took.
Albert wasn't a shirker, yes I agree, that for a while he had a nice little number, a long way from the front, but that was at an end.
The Court asked for mercy in sentencing, given the solid nature of his previous service. The sentence was confirmed by General Sclator who chose to show no mercy scrawling on the court documents "In view of the seriousness of the offence, and the prevalence of these offences among Australian Officers, I do not recommend that the recommendation for mercy be favourably considered, but that this sentence be confirmed."
There are some who believe that Sclators comments could be interpreted as bias against the Australians, perhaps a sign of frustration in dealing with the wild colonials who arrived in their thousands to the camps in his command causing him and his staff no end of trouble, his objective was plain, lets make an example of this Harrison chap "pour encourager les autres"
Summery:
I hope this puts some perspective into this issue, Albert made some big mistakes, potentially ending his military career. I do believe that he deserves a chance to be found, even if he was killed in action or some other permutation, he deserves some sort of hearing, he may have been promoted in the British Army and received a Knight hood or decorated for bravery. Yep! it could be under another name and this was very easy to do in those times. There were a thousand names available every new dawn in France. War isn't a nice thing, men do crazy things under crazy circumstances, while the men who initiate and control the wars sit in their hidey holes and issue insane rules.
Hope all this doesn't offend
Ian
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I don't think we have any right to judge our ancestors, and neither should we be made to feel that we have to explain their behaviour. I am sure we all have people in our family trees whose behaviour could be called into question; certainly, in some of the scavenger hunts on these boards we have come across numerous people whose actions have been utterly disgraceful. However, I have to grudgingly admit that it certainly makes for more interesting research and then, as now, it takes all sorts, etc.
Whilst Albert's lifestyle and actions may have been questionable, it is easy for us to condemn him a century later. However, we should never forget what these men suffered in the field, and who can say how it affected them? Nowadays such post-traumatic stress is well-documented and treated, but in those days a man who had been under fire and who thereafter lost his nerve was treated as a coward. Neither of course was there anything akin to debt- or relationship-counselling so anyone experiencing difficulties was left to sink or swim. Harsh days indeed.
Whatever the truth of the matter, I do agree that Albert's history is worth discovering and recording if possible. Sounds like the making for a future scavenger hunt, if nothing is found in the meatime!
Regards,
Greensleeves
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That is 'hard' reading... and does make you realise that there is more to every tale that is told.. It is so easy to 'Judge'... even with the full facts. The connotations as to what happened are many. I feel that it is your right to 'feel as strongly' as you do regarding your relation. I hope you find what you are looking for and can accept what you find - 'just cos its written don't mean its true' -- I had a friend at Uni tell me to 'move on', 'get over it' if I had a problem or moan... It is far from easy to do that - as we can see by the research and the knowledge you have of all this - I do sincerely hope you find a satisfactory 'personal' resolution.
Good luck
xin
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You say part of his records have mysteriously disappeared. I too have an ancestor whose records are very extensive (well over 100 pages, and still incomplete!!) but I have been told that in the 1960's many records were 'culled' and only the most interesting parts of these larger records kept.
There is also the possiblilty that some of his records were amongst the 'burnt' records which are around 70% of all WW1 records.
We must never judge our ancestors actions by todays standards. We have no idea what they were thinking or going through. We can read many books, look at lots of documentaries but this all pales into insignificance with reality.
Your ancestor was very lucky he was not sentenced to death, many men were shot for far less.
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Ian, I didn't mean to sound hard on Albert, but reading his record you do have to conclude he didn't have a really bad time in the war, so on the face of it his behaviour is a bit inexplicable. I've read a lot of Australian records and my first sympathy is with Nora, four children to look after, a husband who has been court marshalled and who is supposed to be coming home but then never appears.
Sydney Blamey's record is very interesting - he had a hell of a war right from Gallipoli through Egypt to France and he wasn't discharged until June 1919. It's safe to say that he was probably suffering a good deal of stress (I noticed also that he was gassed) and his behaviour isn't that surprising. You can't blame him for answering back and saying something he shouldn't, he must have been right at the end of his tether a lot of the time. When Albert went AWOL in June 1917 was Sydney still in France? The dates on Sydney's record are a bit confusing - so Sydney was punished for 3 pretty minor misdemeanours by having his pay stopped when he was back in England?
It is very odd that both their "crimes" are recorded on the same piece of paper - it wasn't as if they were brothers and had the same name - there's no obvious connection between them.
Something else might be a bit odd about Sydney's record. There are no medical notes. I suppose they may have been lost but most medical notes seem to have survived and are included in the records, and the poor chap was in and out of hospital often enough to have collected one or two.
I can't help thinking that if Albert took on a new life in either the British Army or in England as a civilian he would have done it under an assumed name.
Carole
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Hi there Plummergirl, Xin and Greensleeves,
thanks for your combined perspective and thoughts regarding Albert's misadventures, the philosophical aspects of historical mis-doings of our ancestors and this subsequent research regarding Albert and the Military.
I expect plenty of criticism over his deeds and I'm up for that and much more if necessary. If Albert is anything like his brother Arthur (my grandfather) there will be lots more to this story before it ends and possibly a wild ride along the way.
The outcome of the explanation regarding Albert's Court Martial and his alledged crimes is a really positive process and outcome. Everybody gets another perspective and also more detail to aid in the research. Good or bad information is what it is "information" it jogs my memory and assists me to get my head straight about the facts and the possible fiction. I like the devils advocate approach to shock me into action, in this case a defence of sorts.
I'm not happy about him not returning to his family, what he did to get Court Martialled is quite trivial in comparison to his no-show at home. I believe he felt that he couldn't return home to his children and keep his head held up!!!
Mysteriously missing records: (Xin's question)
The records that I speak off are his Australian records. I believe his normal military records are complete as are his Court Martial Records. However there are other files that are completely empty and yet the outer file cover does exist suggesting that there actually was something inside.
His DVA file is an example here, he shouldn't have one as he forfeited his right to any pension when he was dismissed, but he has a file cover in the Department of Veteran Affairs in Australia. I have often thought that given he apparently joined the British Military there may have been some exchange of information from Australia to the UK DVA in support of a claim for a pension later on.??
I have searched the British Medal Cards and Military records without success at this stage and am aware of the numerous types including the burnt series and the culling, yep it's quite possible that his British Officer history is burnt or destroyed but the London Gazette will have his entry into the British Army without question. The question is under what name!!
Ian
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G'day Carole,
no apologies are necessary, as previously identified I love a devils advocate approach and now we all know a lot more about the man, based on your criticism which is well founded given the info we have to hand.
I have to disagree with you about him having an easy time in WW1, He fought at Posiers and Ypres, enough said. Check out how may Australian's died in those battels, there are some Australian records that were set in these two areas.
There is a book currently in production that will account for the battle history of the 19th battalion at these two towns, I will drop the stats onto this site when it is published
Yes, the business of Syd's history having Albert's info included is a first for many military researchers and I have also wondered about his missing medical history, perhaps it was drawn for some sort of enquiry after his suicide which was apparently related to his Military and AEH related issues.
I actually thought that Syd was in England when Albert was Court martialled, I'm not sure how I know this, perhaps something his family has told me previously.
I have to agree with you about Albert's name, If he had Joined the British Military in his real name I would have found him by now. This is my stumbling block, what name and how do I locate this?
I'd better get off to sleep, it's 03:30Am in Oz
Ian
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I'm trying to sort out the chronology of what happened in 1917:
29/01/1917 Syd was AWOL for a day and forefitted 4 days pay while he was at Perham Downs. Albert is in Rouen at this date
03/05/1917 Albert "advances" himself £15. He is at Perham Down now as well.
12/05/1917 Albert advances himself £25
23/05/1917 Syd used obscene language. (Perham Down)
29/05/1917 Syd is sent to France
03/06/1917-13/06/1917 Albert is AWOL
23/06/1917 Syd is fined £3-10s for the obscene language. By this date he is back in Perham Downs.
26/06/1917-29/06/1917 Albert is court marshalled. Dismissed that day and fined 87 days pay.
14/10/1917 Syd is awarded the Military Medal - do you know what for as this is the next entry to his fine and he still appears to be at Perham Down? Was he at Perham Down since the June?
I'm sure there must be some connection going on there but I just don't know what. It's all a bit of a mystery.
Carole
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As odd as it may sound, is it worthwhile researching some people who may have had access to the missing files? Perhaps he had a friend in a military records office who was willing to dispose of any embarassing information?
The clue about who might not be immediately useful, but added to the other information you've accumulated, it might suggest a direction.
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I find Trillium's suggestion very interesting, and had considered making a similar contribution as I know from personal experience on both sides of the fence so to speak that records can and do get lost either accidentally or accidentally on purpose so to speak. I agree this line of approach is worth pursuing also any connections with the General who spoke on his behalf. Were they both in the same Lodge perhaps? I believe some of these records exist and may throw light.
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Is it at all possible that Albert returned to Australia but not to his family?
An article extracted from the Pacific Island Monthly, Aug 1940 records that numerous members of the Nrw Guinea Volunteer Force, established by Australia, were commended. These included NGX71 HARRISON, Albert Edward.
The problem, of course, is that he would have been in his sixties by then.
Keith
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Hi Carole,
thanks for sorting out the Albert/Syd cronology, it's something I hadn't thought to do and it certainly does rule out Albert's urgent trip London as one where Syd could have been directly involved as he was apparently in France keeping the War going
So we still have Albert going to London for either Personal, Legal, Moral or Business.
If you were going to put your whole career or life on the line, it would have to be Personal, most business, legal, moral, arrangements can be made in writing or by proxy, men loose their heads sometimes in personal matters of the heart and I can't help thinking there was a love interest in London. again there is no actual evedance but the family had heard something of this nature was existing.
As for Syd and Albert, the business of the combined legal crimes on Syd's record speaks for itself, they were interrelated, so maybe the money was for Syd's mischief and the trip to London wasn't related to Syd at all
ian
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G'day Trilliam62 and Redroger,
A conspiracy or at the least a record conspiracy. Well, I certainly had considered this angle once or twice previously. When I cam up with file holders at the Australian Archives that had no contents, other than a number that was meaningless to the staff and me, is when I started to think I was researching a UFO.
He did embarrass the Government and the Australian Army when he was dismissed, was an Officer and didn't return to his homeland or more importantly his family and not just his wife and children, but a large extended family.
There remains in the Archives correspondence between the Prime Ministers Office, The Premier's Office and the Aus Army, regarding the lack of sense in Court Martialling men in England and then letting them loose, they should have been kept in custody and then returned. They hadn't considered that a man, having lost his self-respect might not want to return to the considerable scorn of his Country, family and friends. It would be a lonely voyage back home, and being an Officer would be a whole lot worse again
Notwithstanding all of this, there was a War raging and these seemingly trivial matters were just a nuisance.
Meanwhile back in Australia his wife was making noises, "where is my husband"? apart from what we see in his records, I'm guessing there were lots of questions being asked in Oz and in England.
I do believe that he joined the British Military after 1917. I can't help thinking that at some point down the line, he would have made a call on the Military for help, either medical or financial perhaps a pension. Therefore, the absence of these documents in his Australian files might be explained by a transfer to the British Military?
I have worked for the Aus and Vic Government for 30 years now, and I couldn't believe that files could just go missing or be purposefully removed to change an outcome or to remove some degree of scrutiny, no, no, no, !!!!! ..............................LOL
I do believe one thing, once gone never recovered!!!!
I also believe that there will be some records that will throw some light on these matters that are peripheral to the primary issues here but will note or refer to some motives and hitherto unknown facts. Perhaps the Provo Martial case files are a start.
The trick is to ascertain what they are? I probably know where they are.
The major General who spoke for Albert was killed soon after the GCM reference was given so a dead-end there. As for the common Lodge, I'm sure he was "taught to be cautious" and so this will be sealed by time and square process!!!
One of the biggest issues here is that his old mates and family are all dead now. Therefore this research becomes an intellectual pursuit through the records. I am about to investigate the Australian Legacy aspect as I'm sure his wife would have accessed this organisation in her quest for sustenance
Thanks for idea, I'm not at all sure where to start on this aspect, but deserves some consideration
Cheers
ian
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Hi Carole,
something that I forgot in may last reply to you, I am tracking down the note left by Syd upon his demise by Suicide via the Coroners Inquest notes which I believe will exist
Thanks for the clue there
Ian
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G'day Keith,
My father was in New Guinea in WW2 not part of the group you speak off though. He was 40 and said it was pretty hard for a bloke his age with the heat and humidity. Albert was 38 when he was in WW1 and an old bloke by general war standards then. I acknowledge that Officers were generally older.
One of problems here is that the name Albert Edward was very common for the period and so there are bloody hundreds of Albert Edward Harrison's around the place. I'm not sure what that says about the Harrison's who kept naming their sons Albert Edward. Good if you wanted to confuse the Tax office I guess!!
So, although this is tantalizing that he may have been in WW2 and in New Guinea, I'm thinking not possible at this stage, I'm nearly 60 and couldn't fight my way out of a wet paper bag, let alone a few hundred/thousand Japanese
The proposition that he may have returned to Australia has consumed me for years. There have been Albert Edward Harrison's who have traveled from the UK to Australia since 1917. I have searched all the BDM archives for Death/Age/Birthdates etc and come up with virtually nothing, so have to conclude that he didn't. Every Australian BDM angle has been researched, BUT he could have changed his name..........................................???
Thanks for the alternate angle,
Regards
Ian in Oz
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Hi carole,
I forgot to address this question,
14/10/1917 Syd is awarded the Military Medal -
Q: "do you know what for as this is the next entry to his fine and he still appears to be at Perham Down? Was he at Perham Down since the June"?
I will investigate this and get back to you
Rgds, Ian
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I'm sure if anyone would have known what happened to Albert it would have been Syd.
I assume you have read through Syd's brothers war records? William Blamey who was KIA 04/07/1918 and Norman Blamey KIA 30/04/1915. There are some interesting letters there especially in Norman's file (page 27) a letter from the eldest brother Richard Blamey explaining something about the family's situation. I noted that in 1920 Syd was living with his sister Nora Harrison.
The Australian newspaper site is down at the moment (typical!) but I remember reports on Syd going missing in 1931(?) and his family being worried about him and then him having a gold watch stolen. I didn't take much notice of this, but if he was in financial difficulties why did he have a gold watch? He shouldn't have been allowed to die as he did, so there must have been an inquest/inquiry. I'm also sure I remember reading a solicitors notice in the paper about Syd's estate - did he leave a will and were there any clues in that?
I really don't see any reason if Albert wanted to go missing why he would have kept his own name. There are other Albert Edward Harrisons but by keeping it it would have been possible for him to be traced after the war.
Carole
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Newspapers back - the watch was new and apparently worth £50, a lot of money in 1933.
The legal notice was fromThe Sydney Morning Herald of 27 June 1934 asking anyone who had a claim on Sydney Blamey's estate to come forwards as probate was going to be granted to his executor David Popplewell of Ashley Court Doncaster Avenue, Kensington. Contractor.
Carole
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Regarding the empty files; from my knowledge of (British) railway personnel procedures which were quite obviously based on military procedures (I feel quite at home reading military files, it's like being back at work) I am as certain as I can be that the missing papers were not removed officially, if they had been then there would have been a receipt for them saying where they had been transferred to and on whose authority.
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Ian,
It is conceivable that you are not the only one looking for this man. A quick Google search revealed
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=141504
which refers to an Albert Edward Harrison in the British Army in the later stages of WW1. There have been no postings to this forum since February. The discussion was started by someone calling himself Black.
Good luck with the hunt.
Keith
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Hi Carole,
I have not seen Syd's brother's files and these certainly do sound interesting, I will get hold of these documents in the next couple of days and we can then discuss the contents.
I must admit that looking at sydney and his brother's files hadn't occured to me as a source of info regarding Albert and as usual I could be wrong.....!
I have placed the info you have found in the hands of Albert's family "grandchildren", some of them lived with Nora when she was an older woman and may hold some key knowledge without knowing , some of this info about Syd and his brothers could jog their memories.
Yes, you are right on the money regarding Syd's knowledge of Albert's circumstances, its quite possible that he kept them secret, naturally Nora could have known everything and not told the family, she obviously knew about the GCM and yet her grandchildren knew nothing of Albert's circumstances and you would think that their parents would have told them when they got to an age of understanding.....? "they knew he never returned home from WW1"
As for Albert keeping his name, or not, there are competing interests here.
I'm sure he would need his original Commission documents to get another Commission in the British Army. Perhaps someone could confirm this??
A lot of his official documents (AIF) are described as AE Harrison if this is consistant he could be anything that was starting with an "A" and an "E" or just an "A" or perhaps as simple as a Harrison with an extra S or a single R it certainly makes a difference looking on today's E-Resources, the incorrect spelling take you all over the place
BUT, 90 years ago I believe that you could retain your real name and still not be located, I imagine that the war would have put Europe and England into a spin and looking for a bloke with a name that was fairly common would be difficult, no computers, the odd telephone, Police who had really important things going on let alone identifying thousands of dead soldiers on all side of the fence.......?
The following is a great example of spelling Harrisson/Harrison and you never know it could be my man........?
THE LONDON GAZETTE, 20 JUNE, 1924. 4809
INFANTRY.
1th Bn. Midd'x. R.—The surname of 2nd Lt.
A. E. Harrisson is as now described and not
as in Gaz. dated 3rd June 1924.
THE LONDON GAZETTE, 3 JUNE, 1924. 4439
INFANTRY.
1th Bn. Midd'x R.—Alfred Ernest Harrison.
4th June 1924.
Ian
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Redroger,
You said:
Regarding the empty files; from my knowledge of (British) railway personnel procedures which were quite obviously based on military procedures (I feel quite at home reading military files, it's like being back at work) I am as certain as I can be that the missing papers were not removed officially, if they had been then there would have been a receipt for them saying where they had been transferred to and on whose authority
I read your text several times.....! maybe, I should check with the person who physically saw the empty file folder, he said there was a number inside the file folder, maybe this means something to somebody. It certainly meant nothing to the staff at the Archives. These people wern't Military people, maybe this should be taken up with the Military people in Melbourne amazingly my Auntie was in the records Dept at Victoria Barracks In Melbourne and I had never considered her help previously...??
More noise about this aspect, maybe it isn't a conspiricy after all...?
thanks
Ian
Ps: I think I have a photo of this number I will locate it and broadcast it here in two days, perhaps someone knows what it means..!!
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G'day keith,
you said:
It is conceivable that you are not the only one looking for this man. A quick Google search revealed
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=141504
which refers to an Albert Edward Harrison in the British Army in the later stages of WW1. There have been no postings to this forum since February. The discussion was started by someone calling himself Black
I am aware of this thread, its origins are known to me, Black was doing some research for another project where AE Harrison was a very small part of a bigger picture, there are numerous other threads elswhere on the NET, none of them have come to anything. Most, if not all were started several years ago, by me.
As the years have elapsed more on-line data has emerged and Military and general research knowledge has matured. This latest quest on RootsChat is showing the greatest promise.
Black, his researchers and historians are still searching for AE Harrison, the more the better. We ultimately have the same agenda, ascertain AEH's fate for the sake of closure, and hopefully to see a happy ending for anybody involved, perhaps his grandchildren...!
Cheers
Ian
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I'm not a military historian, so I have to ask. As he had been court marshalled and dismissed by the AIF could he obtain a commision in the British Army under his real identity?
I still think Syd holds the key. I would definately want to read his will - sometimes people will confess things in their wills that they would otherwise not like to be made known. I'm sure he knew what happened to Alfred. I wonder if Alfred secretly contacted Syd after the war ? He may even have sent money him to give to Nora. Syd seems to have been a broken man after the war. I can't see that he married. After he died he was described as a shearer, something I don't suppose would fund a £50 watch (if it really was that valuable)
This is the letter Richard Blamey wrote to the army on 11 August 1920 which is in Norman's file:
I am the eldest of the family. Mother dead 30 years ago. Father, I believe alive but he left his family about 27 years ago and he was alive a month or so ago and I expect he will be applying for the gratuity grant. My brother unfortunately made no will as I would have liked my sister to have received this as she has lost her husband through the war but not killed. He went away in ‘15 an was discharged in England in ‘17 for some trouble and has not returned here. I reckon its up to the country to do something for her and her 4 children . Two other brothers wanted to return from France to look after her but the Dep. said no. One was killed July ‘18 and the other smashed and is living with her at Katoomba on 21/- a week pension. Fortunately Will made a will in her favour and my sister was able to get his back pay and I hope there will be no trouble about getting the gratuity.
Carole
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Carole,
your have stumbled onto some very interesting information hitherto unknown to me and I believe the family. I will forward it on for comment, I expect an answer within 2 days time
The ripple effect of Albert and the War really hit the Blamey family didn't it.....!
Your question regarding the GCM is a good one and quite valid but the note in his AIF file sais it all, he joined the British Permanent Army. I guess we have to see it the way it would be viewed in 1917-19 his crime was being caught and being an officer and he had to be made an example of, lesser ranks knew about this. Officers went away and made financial arrangements all the time the benefit of rank. It looks to me like he was stitched up, albeit he was guilty...!!!
Oh, and they needed Officers particulary experienced soldiers, so if I was a commanding officer I would definately put him on, just not let him near the cash and keep an eye on his movements for a while, I'm guessing that he wouldn't make the same mistake again....?
Maybe the British Army didn't have to know about the GCM, why tell them....??? I'll ask the question elswhere, or would anybody watching care to give an opinion, would the British military care??, would they employ him if they knew???
Ian
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Have been following this thread with great interest...but can offer no help, sorry... ::)does anyone know if Scrimnet is around? He is brilliant at Army info...perhaps a post on the army board linking to this thread? (Scrimnet is the Mod of the Armed Forces board)
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Ian, I think that number in the file might well be of some importance. Hopefully it will have more than just a number, like a number on an official receipt issued by whoever. Good luck. I still think the Masons come into this, and understand that there are older Masonic Records for the UK at any rate available, whether there are any Australian records I don't know, but it is worth a Googl;e I would think.
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Redroger and Trilliam62,
after some frantic searching back to 2003 I found the picture of the card that was left in the file folder I had thought that it was just a number) but I was wrong and you were right, there was a reference.......?.
I went over the correspondance from the Australian NAA and they had no idea what the card was for nor what the numbers represented
The records should have contained his pension details the department controllong this in Australia is the Department of Veteran Affairs these files had been transferred to the National Archives form that Department
The card reads:
Harrison AE
Captain 19th Batallion
EX AIF Soldier registered Sydney
R98673 and G2/20470
registered in Sydney Australia
Does anybody have a clue what this means? could it be a British Officer's Long Number or perhaps a number of a British DVA file ???
Regards
Ian
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I may be imagining things, but something about the way that the card has been written suggests to me that it was written in England and not Australia. I think your surmise may well be correct in that this is his service number as an officer in the British Army.
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You might find this information page from the National Archives of interest:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=6&j=1#2
I'm pretty sure that officers did not have regimental numbers, so whatever those numbers are I don't think either of them are that. I suspect that they are more likely to be file reference numbers - whether those files still exist is, of course, the $64,000 question.
jds1949
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I thought at this point that the inclusion of the now infamous GCM should be included for discussion, maybe there is something in here that suggests a clue to his future??
http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/Imagine.asp?B=12017141&I=1&SE=0
Ian
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Hi Jds1949,
thanks for the comments regarding the file numbers or reference numbers, I'm still checking all the National Archives references trying to se if any numbers appar to be a similar form, but not much luck at this stage
Ian
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G'day Redroger,
written in the UK....? maybe, I'm searching for smilar forms but no luck yet
Ian
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all,
regarding the Australian DVA reference card found in the empty file holder:
The card reads:
Harrison AE
Captain 19th Batallion
EX AIF Soldier registered Sydney
R98673 and G2/20470
registered in Sydney Australia
What is the UK organisation that runs the Returned Service Personnel Pension Scheme called and any relevant details?
I'm thinking that if I present the card to them they might have some idea of its use/origin/owner/
And while I'm at it I might just present it to the Australian DVA organisation
Ian
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I've been enthralled by this thread and followed it with interest, but am no means an expert.
The statement that struck me as being relevant was that he was " dismissed from the King's Service". Wouldn't that preclude him from being accepted into any regiment in the British Empire? Especially if he was accepted as an officer, where his previous service must have been known?
Just a thought,
Colin
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G'day Colin,
its enthralled me for years also, but without an ending it’s getting "%^&$#@"
your comment on: " dismissed from the King's Service".
1: I am 90% sure that he joined the British Permanent Army given the documents found in his AIF records
2: I could never understand how he would just walk up to another Army establishment and say here I am employ me.
3: The new job would want to see his AIF Commission, Wouldn't they..... ?
4: They would then say why aren’t you fighting with your own mob......? wouldn't they.....?
But, maybe as someone else has said previously, maybe he was a Mason, maybe he had mates in the British Army, who would turn a blind eye, Officers were in demand, especially experienced ones. They might have said who cares!!! Grab the bastard and use him up as cannon fodder
And lastly, maybe he just lied a little, made a new name up, fronted up with some contrived evidence that we don't know about and bluffed his way through He'd been a Salesman, a Captain, and If I’m not mistaken had "the gift of the gab" like my grandfather his brother....!!
When I see the documents used as Official in 1917 and then know that he was in a position to get these original new documents and then say what he liked on them and or then go back to them and edit them to say or mean something quite different. (ie) change his name, or have friends that might do it for him, then it might be quite understandable and possible.
This situation for a basic soldier would be difficult, but all of us who have held senior positions in Organisations know ways around the normal or legal or proper methods..... If you know what I mean. So, a Captain with contacts could arrange almost anything if he was desperate enough.
Off course, this is all conjecture at this point and all of this might end up being a unsolvable mad riddle
This matter has been researched over and over again by me and others, in many different ways. The fact that I'm opening it up to RootsChat is an example of another way for me/us to find out new facts a different way. The normal methods haven't worked. Working through the Military Archives using the normal methods hasn't worked, the normal documents attribued to an Officer arn't where they should be and there is ample evidance that they should be available.
I dispatched aletter to the Historical Records section of the UK MOD last night, with enough rope to either hang me or pull Albert back up out of the French mud, lets hope they might find something
One last thing here: you have had the chance to read his GCM, yes he was Court Martialled, as the paymaster said other officers took sums of money advanced from their wages and as for AWOL, it appears this was a pretty normal practice. He didn't take a pot-shot at the King or run from a battle. I wouldn't have a problem with hireing him, but then I'm an Aussie and pretty easy going about rules and regulations, "a rule breaker and not a rule maker"
Cheers
ian
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Ill throw one into the pot...could he have joined Military Intelligence? and entered that murky world...wouldnt know where to begin looking for documents though??
This is a fascinating thread i hope you get a successful outcome
Ady :)
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I've read through the court marshal. It really does look as if their was either a woman involved or he had got into debt - and why he didn't just say that while adding 'but I will not name them' baffles me. He didn't do anything heinous and I can't help thinking if he'd owned up they might just have reduced him in rank and sent him elsewhere. The dates don't really tie in with his BIL Syd's misdemeanours so I am baffled as to why there is the note in Syd's file which mentions them both.
I couldn't help thinking reading it that he'd done just enough to get dismissed but nothing worse and I wonder he was actually hoping that his actions would get him dismissed?
Carole
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Reading Albert's Army records again.
On 10 October 1919 Nora received a letter
Dear Madam,
I forward herewith Form of commission covering the appointment of your husband ex-Captain A E Harrison 19th Battalion as a temporary 2nd Lieutenant in the Regular Forces of the British Army, for transmission to him. This refers to the first appointment to Commission and not to subsequent rank. Will you kindly let me know whether same comes safely to hand by signing and returning the attached receipt form.
She signed and returned the receipt on 24 October 1919. Why? If she didn't know where her husband was she couldn't send it to him, but there are no letters from her querying this letter in Albert's file. That makes no sense ???
I know this is only asking an old question, but if he was dismissed by his court marshal why did Nora receive a letter dated 13 June 1918 saying that Albert had applied for and was eligible for discharge from the services from 28 August 1918 which was over a year after the court marshal took place?
Carole
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G'day Ady, (MMM45)
The "murky world of Military Intelligence"? this had occurred to me more than once in the beginning of my research when many things didn't add up or lead anywhere.
The military researchers (professionals) just couldn't make head or tail of it all and kept coming up with red herrings.
Since then, some of those dead ends have been resolved or at least understood a little better..
So, although it all seems like a deliberate mess or contrived set of circumstances, I think it's a mess because either Albert made it this way to conceal his identity or the normal paper chase has been messed up due to time and actions by the Authorities in culling historical documents and I shouldn't leave ot the German bombing and subsequent burning of the London based records
The first thing I need to do is confirm his entry into the British Army then the unit or Batallion, then we'll see if it could be MI3, I'd be happy if it was, he's apparently good at keeping or creating a secret, he's got us second guessing his secrets 93 years later.................................LOL
Ian
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Dear Carole,
firstly, the response from Alberts's family is deafening in its silence! quite understandable given the info that you have unearthed has I'm sure been painful and previously unknown to them....... (but they want to know)
you said: It really does look as if their was either a woman involved or he had got into debt We know that another woman had been spoken about in the family and by Nora, again anything like my grandfather and it would be another woman
I believe that similar to my grandfather, Albert would have been a gambler, just an assertion no proof!! "I'm pretty certain that my grandfather was a professional punter he certainly was a bookie and BIG card player, I'm thinking that little brother might have learnt some tricks from him. He certainly had financial problems
Albert had been bankrupt in Victoria, An exert from the Melbourne Argus Newspaper : June 15th 1909
New Insolvents: Albert Harrison of Princess St Kew, Traveller, Causes of insolvency - loss of employment followed by sickness of wife and childand having to pay heavy interest on borrowed money Liabilities - 65 pounds Mr A S Baillieu Assignee. He sunsequently went to NSW with Nora and the kids in (c) 1912 with three children under four years of age then another child in 1913 and then two years later he joined WW1 in 1915
I agree that he wanted out, I don't think he wanted to stay in England initially given his tirade upon being caught whilst AWOL
I absolutely believe that both men were involved in some sort of mischief to have common or combined crime info on Syd's file
Ian
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Hi Carole,
You said: "On 10 October 1919 Nora received a letter"
"Dear Madam,
I forward herewith Form of commission covering the appointment of your husband ex-Captain A E Harrison 19th Battalion as a temporary 2nd Lieutenant in the Regular Forces of the British Army, for transmission to him. This refers to the first appointment to Commission and not to subsequent rank. Will you kindly let me know whether same comes safely to hand by signing and returning the attached receipt form.
She signed and returned the receipt on 24 October 1919"............ Why?
I am not an Expert!!! but several experts have concluded that this is an informal and unofficial way of alerting Nora of her husbands circumstances in England, by using a form of Commission document. The important phrase here is "for transmission to him" so Nora signs and returns the receipt back to base records, then they know that she knows what Albert is up to.
The Base records staff know that Albert has been dismissed but they no longer Have an AE Harrison on their books. because they have divorced themselves from him via Court Martial. This "form of commission" document never gets to Albert he never knows that she knows he's in the British Army, and Importantly, Nora would never in normal circumstances be required to be party to some document exchange regarding a Commission......?
Note:
it never sais where he is or what unit he is with, just enough to let her know that Albert is alive and well and getting on with his life in the UK, there were no queries from Nora because the letter that Nora got may have had more info than the one we see in the records and she would understand its hidden meaning, this was a good will gesture from a good heatred Major at base records
You said:
I know this is only asking an old question, but if he was dismissed by his court marshal why did Nora receive a letter dated 13 June 1918 saying that Albert had applied for and was eligible for discharge from the services from 28 August 1918 which was over a year after the court marshal took place?
I believe that this was the first stage of clearing up the mess. He was officially missing and not returned to Australia to be properly discharged.
By actually discharging in England he may have been then able to join the Permanent army, he would have needed his discharge papers........? "a bit like divorce papers" you can't get married again unless you have your divorce papers .
If he had returned to Australia via a troop ship, as he was supposed to, then he would have been required to be discharged properly at the end of that voyage. Army red tape and bureaucracy.
When discharge is completed normally, The file is sent back to Australia, all the wheels start turning such as medals, pensions, etc.
Meanwhile back in Australia Nora and her family were amping up the questions and trouble. By discharging in England it would sever Albert's connection and then perhaps allow Nora to initiate proceedings for War Gratuity, back pay etc etc...............!!!???
Getting Complicated !!!! If anybody else has some ideas please flame away!!!
Ian
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Nothing new unfortunately, however just an observation; presumably an Australian is going to have a recognizable accent, so he will show up as different in his new unit. I am certain in my own mind that his commission into the British Army was engineered by the General previously referred to.
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I have only seen a limited number of officers' files, but I'm pretty sure that in all of them there was information on at least one referee, someone of substance and standing who vouched for and recommended the man concerned for a commission. Perhaps the General previously mentioned stood as referee, and this might be useful in identifying your man, if he did make changes to his name. It's not going to help you find him, but it might be a piece of evidence that you have got the right man, should you get as far as an actual file.
jds1949
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G'day JDS1949,
Thanks for this little pearl. I recall having seen some Officers commission documents previously and you are quite right about references, some of them had Ministers and School Teachers as referees.
If you were intent on changing your name you would have to go to some degree of trouble, ie write your own references and Commission documents I guess?
The fellow that Albert used as a character witness in his GCM was subsequently killed in action, but he did have his written reference and quite usable if he didn't change his name.
As of today I am starting a project that I should have started a few years ago.
Previously, I've been locating UK Medal Index Cards that contained names that met my search criteria, (ie), initially every Officer of any rank under Major with the naming convention of A E Harrison, then the A Harrison's, then names that could have the A changed easily to perhaps an R or an H or an E etc, then I would locate and download the respective Officers Records. I would then check the information for such things as his parent’s names, date of birth, references, Commission date, date of entry to the service etc.
It’s been pretty easy to establish that the records that I have historically recovered and checked have not belonged to my AE Harrison unless he was an amazing liar, above and beyond the call of duty, perhaps a politician etc ......LOL
Needless to say, this comparison and acquisition program has been pretty ad hock, without order or without subsequent tracking records. I have recently learnt that I am backtracking and or duplicating records. (stupid and costly)
So, I'm about to get organised and build some sort of a record matrix, tying all the existing record pairs together and other related documents into one huge comparative index system. I'm not sure how I will do this. Certainly in the first instance the physical files together in groups and pairs then some sort of IT or paper based solution is needed.
Any good ideas will be gratefully accepted
Ian
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G'day Redroger,
Albert was the son of a Yorkshire father and a Scottish mother who had both come to Oz in 1849 and 1850. Interestingly most of the kids at the schools in Richmond during the 1880 and 90's had either 1st generation Aussie/British accents with British parents or were directly from the UK. Apparently he had a bit of an English accent, and it wouldn't be too hard to add the extra bit, would it?
OK, I admit there is a difference between a Londoner and a Yorkshire accent.
At the end of the day, all he needed to do was get his foot in the door and given that Australian and British forces were together in Battle, Camps, Hospitals, pubs and the streets of England, France and Belgium, the secret of his identity wouldn't be a secret for too long
Again, maybe he didn't try to conceal his identity and this whole problem is down to destroyed or missing records........???
One thing is for sure, if he joined the British Army he is mentioned somewhere in the London Gazette
Ian
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One thought does occur to me, if your man was intent on disappearing it would make far more sense to re-enlist as a rank and file soldier; much less likelihood of ever encountering anyone who had known him previously and a lot easier to manage. The most famous example being T E Lawrence who enlisted as Aircraftsman Shaw. If, on the other hand, his intention was to somehow "redeem his honour" or put the record straight in some way, then re-enlisting as an officer, under his own name, would start to make a lot more sense. That said, you still have the problem of why he then did not return.
jds1949
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I'm still enthralled with this thread. What a fascinating hunt.
Is there any possibility that he went to Canada or the United States after the war? It would be relatively simple for a British subject to slip into Canada, especially if he had a useful skill. Lots of British subjects also ended up in the U.S.
Carol
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Though I doubt it, I think it should be checked for the sake of completeness. If all otherwise OK intend visiting the National Archive next week. Will keep you posted.
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Hi Carole,
I've been going over all my AEH documents for the last couple of days, interestingly, I came across a couple of older Email messages that refer to the correspondence to Nora regarding the "Form of Commission" and I've also taken to oppertunity to re-read many of his documents again after several years.
The two Emails that relate to the Commission document suggest that Nora returned the Commission document to Albert, and I think that this is your feeling also, I can't get my head around this although its possible I guess. I've read and read the original text numerous times and I think there may be an Actual Commission Document that isn't in this file and that is what Nora has received
I believe this is what she received:
1: The covering letter with the attached text referring to the "Form of Commission"
2: The Receipt card , which she returns to Base records
3: The Form of Commission, which is I believe a separate document that an Officer Receives a copy of when he is Commissioned as an Officer into a service and I believe that she would have kept this copy which will have contained all his details
Therefore if this is true, I believe that Nora will have known where he was and under what circumstances...........................................................and after this correspondence there were no further requests by Nora as to his fate or location!!!!!!!
Take two:
"I forward herewith Form of commission covering the appointment of your husband ex-Captain A E Harrison 19th Battalion as a temporary 2nd Lieutenant in the Regular Forces of the British Army, for transmission to him. This refers to the first appointment to Commission and not to subsequent rank. Will you kindly let me know whether same comes safely to hand by signing and returning the attached receipt form"
For those that haven't seen Albert's service Records here is the link below, I should have attached it previously, sorry about that, it has the above documents in it (less the Form of Commission) a British Document......!
http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/imagine.asp?B=4741402&I=1&SE=1
Cheers
ian
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G'day, JDS1949,
You said:
"if your man was intent on disappearing it would make far more sense to re-enlist as a rank and file soldier"
you are absolutely right it would be far simpler to be a soldier, there were dozens of A and AE Harrison soldiers, so just by name alone you could disappear amongst the mob anonymously. The previous post here regarding the Commission documents will I believe confirm that he joined the British Army as an T2Lt Officer. The next question will be wether it was for survival, money of to "redeem his honour"and maybe return to OZ, but after a year or two I seriously doubt it
You said:
"then re-enlisting as an officer, under his own name, would start to make a lot more sense"
Again I agree with you again, everything points to him Joining the British Military but the on-line records don't confirm this at this stage. Each AE Harrison Officer who I have checked out to date is not my man. Now I am still going through numerous options, but all the found AE Harrison and A Harrison Officers have proven to be someone else by comparing the numerous aspects of the real AEH against the details of the potential candidates from MIC's and records
As I mentioned a few posts ago, I sent off a request for information regarding Officers who joined late in the War into the Permanent British Army. These records are not kept amongst the normal archives. The Permanent Army staff joined for 12 years and went on after the war, so, I understand that if they were in the Military after 1920 their records could be elsewhere and also not mentioned in the on-line indexes which would explain many things
Cheers
Ian
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Dear Trillium62, Carol
You said:
"Is there any possibility that he went to Canada or the United States after the war? "
Yes absolutely and this also would explain lots of things,
I have checked all the US, Canadian and British A E Harrison BDM's created all sorts of sophisticated matrix's for selection of suitable candidates regarding age of death against birth date etc etc, but using the example of the British Death Certificates there is no place of birth described so if Australia was his birth-land you'd never find out via the death Certificate. The Australian Certificate shows your place of birth, so it's easy to establishing Country of origin.
The only way to find this fellow is to track each lead until it's exhausted and the only lead we have is that he joined the British Permanent Army between September 1917 and October 1919 based on the letter Nora received regarding the Form Of Commission from Base records Victoria Barricks in Melbourne Australia, this can be seen on his records, the link is on the previous post -2
But Yes, I agree to disappear the US or Canada would have been really good, but so was Western Australia and the Northern Territory great places to disappear in those days, "even now is pretty good"
Hope this helps
Ian
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Regarding the ease of an enlisted man disappearing compared to the disappearance of an officer is I think probably unlikely , on account of his likely age compared to the other enlisted men, plus he would almost certainly have had an Australian accent which would make him stand out. Though he was obviously very street wise there would be times when as an enlisted man his previous career as an officer would show through, and cause questions to be asked at best.Records of service for officers for officers in the service after 1920 are still with the MOD, no doubt someone on this site will be kind enough to provide the link. I believe you have to be next of kin to get sight of them.
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Redroger,
You said:
"Though I doubt it, I think it should be checked for the sake of completeness. If all otherwise OK intend visiting the National Archive next week. Will keep you posted."
our combined doubts amount to many, many!!! one of the reasons that I have opened this problem publically is that I have lost the plot "I can't see the woods for the trees" I need some alternate ideas and you all are getting me to start thinking of alternate ideas and to focus on new and my old research in different ways
I'd be thrilled if you get to the Archives and if you find something that would be amazing, I'd love to come with you, but I'm a bit far away
good hunting
Ian
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Redroger,
Yep, I see your point regarding accent, although he probably didn't care about British Soldiers picking he was an Aussie, as long as the Aussies didn't come and get him and take him back home......... I guess!?
Yep I'm Ok about the MOD and its contact info, I've sent off an enquiry this week, it's my second but this time I'm more prepared with information and I have a specially prepared Stat-Deck, which is adequate for my circumstances and a covering letter from his descendants also
Cheers
ian
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Redroger
I'd be thrilled if you get to the Archives and if you find something that would be amazing, I'd love to come with you, but I'm a bit far away
I know that feeling Ian, the brother of my great grandfather was transported to NSW in 1833 for highway robbery, don't take fright the family has since reformed apart from one who was murdered by his wife, too recently to be on here unfortunately, it's a fascinating case, I was lucky with the ancestor in that my nephew went to Sydney archive a few years ago while visiting his wife's sister, and was able to clandestinely photograph the entire file, so I got over the distance factor in that case. I have a similar though older brick wall regarding the parents of my 2XGGFwho I think was beamed in from the Klingon empire c1776, in
that case a scavenger hunt helped but did not resolve the problem, suggest you might do similar if this thread fails.
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Carole,
herwith a respones from the Albert's family, based on your amazing discoveries and a couple of questions that I asked them are answered here also.
"Re Syd's death, I have Not accessed the N.S.W. Coroners records to date but will attempt to do so.
I think Sydney lived with Nora "on and off"after his return from the War.both in Katoomba and after 1932 at Randwick.Nora never lived at Darlinghurst as far as I know
I must have missed something/somewhere because I was not aware that Sydney went missing in 1931 or that he had a gold watch stolen.
Where did this info come from???
However I do know where the money might have come from viz.
His eldest brother Richard died in Feb 1932 and Sydney received a 1/8th. share of the estate as follows:
Sept 1932 1770 Pounds
Apl. 1933 153 Pounds
Aug. 1933 123 Pounds....dated are approx.
I guess it is also possible that the gold watch was also Richards.
Sydney's Will....I have not researched this.
About the D.V.A. I did not visit them but I did write to them without any success.
The file you are referring to was at the National Archives and it was empty.Again you referred this to the D.V.A.without any positive response.They proved to be a dead end
I do have some infomation in a Solicitors letter sent to My Dad in June 1933 that Sydney was attempting to purchase the Goodwill and furniture in flats in Darlinghurst the letter states...." we did not like the transaction neither the neighbourhood nor the woman who was evidently going to look after the flats nor anything in connection with it and we told Mr. Blamey that we could not countenance him entering into such a deal and that we could not act for him in this matter and he went away saying that,although we would not act for him in this matter we were still his Solicitors
Apparently at this time the Solicitors were still holding 113Pounds in Trust for Sydney.
He was obviously having a tough time .
The note also says "There is no need to let your mother know about him.I have written to you privately as I think the matter is hardly an official one"
Obviously there were several people who were trying their best to help/protect poor Sydney
Hope you find some of this of value"""
Carole, could you drop me the links for the newspapers articles tou have found please, if its not too much trouble
Thanks ;)
Ian
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Ian, Just to help me in my search when I go to the archive please, though I have looked through the posts I cannot find the name of the Major General who you believe gave AEH the reference to enable him to join the British Army. I suspect he may well have enlisted AEH in his own or an associated unit.
Roger
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Redroger,
http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/Imagine.asp?B=12017141&I=1&SE=0
above is his GCM documents page 46/68 will give you the actual reference document , his name is William Holmes Major General
Its just possible that Albert used this reference for his entry to the UK Military, but not sure as we don't have the Commission documents. It's only a copy, signed by a Major, I'm guessing that Albert wanted the original for his future purposes, which might be as we believe entry into the UK Military....!
Note: the original was returned to the accused at his request ,see NAA page 16 (or page 11 actual)
Ian
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The newspaper reports can be found here http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/search?adv=y - I did an exact phrase search for Sydney Blamey and also Sidney Blamey. The newspaper entry about probate simply came up on a Google search for Sydney Blamey hopefully it will still be here http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/1144589?zoomLevel=1, but I don't know if the search will be timed out or not. If not Google should find it - EXCEPT that the notice isn't on page 2 of the Sydney Herald which was what appeared with the Google search but on the next page, page 3, column 4 about halfway down the page.
Carole
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I had some spare time at Kew today - so I did a little digging - not much found and all negative I'm afraid.
1. As suspected the divorce for Albert Edward Harrison previously mentioned had nothing to do with your man - this Albert Edward was an electrician living in Norwich who had married in 1903.
2. I found the Army List for April 1918 - this particular one was the "Gradation List of Officers in the British Army" - so it listed all officers by rank and not, as is usually the case, by Regiment. Eleven men named Harrison were serving as 2nd Lieutenants as of 31st March 1918; none of them had the forenames Albert Edward in any combination. From the other details in their listings it was also clear that none of them had any connection with Australia.
If he did enter the British Army as a 2nd Lieutenant under his own name in the autumn of 1917 he was no longer serving as that by April 1918.
I did not have time to go through the list of Lieutenants, he may have been promoted by April 1918, on my to do list for next time.
jds1949
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If Nora received a letter in October 1919 about Albert joining the British Regular Army, wouldn't that mean he joined up after the war ended?
Carole
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I assumed that as he was discharged from the AIF in the autumn of 1917 following his court martial that he went into the British Army sooner rather than later. If he didn't then there is the additional problem of what he was doing for over a year kicking his heels in the UK at the height of a war, not in uniform and of military age. Yes, he had an explanation, but not one that he would care to give.
jds1949
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Carole,
"The fighting ended with the signing of an armistice (cease fire) which went into effect at 11:00 a.m. on November 11, 1918"
1:..... July 29th 1917 Court Martialled Tidworth
2:......August 28th 1917 Dismissed from the service
2:......March 22nd 1918 Base records requests information from London on Ex Capt Harrison's location etc
4:......May 1st 1918 Nora Harrison requesting help and information on her husband
5:......May 3rd 1918 Base records responds to Nora's request for information with no knowledge of AEH's fate or location
6:......June 13th 1917 AIF headquarters Westminister London reports to base records that EX Capt Harrison has applied for Discharge in England
7:......August 28th 1918 Ex Capt Harrison discharged in England
8:......November 11th 1918 War ends
9:......October 10th 1919 (almost a year after War end) Nora receives a message from base Records Australia (not AIF headquarters Westminister England) undercover of "form of Commission and receipt etc" that Ex Capt Harrison had joined the British Regular Forces as a T2Lt
Because we know nothing of the period between 2: and 7: and again 7: and 9: it's possible that he could have joined at any stage in these two periods. The fact that Nora was informed in Oct 1919 only tells us that the AIF had ascertained his fate and wherebouts on that date. Interestingly he wasn't discharged in England until August 28th 1918 and as I have said previously I don't believe he could rejoin a service until he was Discharged.....? But nothing confirmed here?????
If he joined after August 28th he would be joining the service (the War) for a couple of months, but he joined the Regular Forces, I think he would have to join for several years war or no war?
Whatever!!! he joined the regular forces quite late in the War and quite possibly his records aren't with the rest in the normal manner particularly if he was in the service after 1920
Ian
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G'day JDS1949,
Thanks for the Kew work yesterday, (wish I could reciprocate somehow)
I will comment on your findings later on tonight, I'll have to get some sleep, it's 05:30 Am in Oz and I've shut down (brain dead up all night) .... LOL
Ian
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Dear Ian,
don't worry about reciprocating - this is a fascinating story and I'm enjoying helping to find anything more. Have a good night's kip,
jds1949
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I think I've spotted something, and I apologise if it has already been covered.
Ian's list of events (assume No 6 should be 1918)
1:..... July 29th 1917 Court Martialled Tidworth
2:......August 28th 1917 Dismissed from the service
2:......March 22nd 1918 Base records requests information from London on Ex Capt Harrison's location etc
4:......May 1st 1918 Nora Harrison requesting help and information on her husband
5:......May 3rd 1918 Base records responds to Nora's request for information with no knowledge of AEH's fate or location
6:......June 13th 1917 AIF headquarters Westminister London reports to base records that EX Capt Harrison has applied for Discharge in England
7:......August 28th 1918 Ex Capt Harrison discharged in England
8:......November 11th 1918 War ends
Items 2 and 7 are exactly 12 months apart, so could this mean he was Dismissed from service and then Discharged (from prison?), but remained in England at his own request, rather than being repatriated?
(Added - his records contained, I believe, a doctor's certificate confirming he was fit to serve a prison sentence, with hard labour)
Colin
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G'day Colin,
firstly you are absolutely right about item 6, it's a typo, herewith, the list again, corrected..
1:..... July 29th 1917 Court Martialled Tidworth
2:......August 28th 1917 Dismissed from the service
2:......March 22nd 1918 Base records requests information from London on Ex Capt Harrison's location etc
4:......May 1st 1918 Nora Harrison requesting help and information on her husband
5:......May 3rd 1918 Base records responds to Nora's request for information with no knowledge of AEH's fate or location
6:......June 13th 1918 AIF headquarters Westminister London reports to base records that EX Capt Harrison has applied for Discharge in England
7:......August 28th 1918 Ex Capt Harrison discharged in England
8:......November 11th 1918 War ends
9:......October 10th 1919 (almost a year after War end) Nora receives a message from base Records Australia (not AIF headquarters Westminister England) undercover of "form of Commission and receipt etc" that Ex Capt Harrison had joined the British Regular Forces as a T2Lt
Interesting comment, "exactly 12 months apart" had me scrambling back to the Service Records to confirm that this issue wasn't a mistake by the Military or one made by me, but it turned out to be correct, on NAA page 34/86 of his Service Record it says in two places 1918, ie, 13th June 1918 and 28th Aug 1918. So, yes he was dismissed in 1917 and then subsequently discharged in England in 1918 on his birthday, he was also Married on the same day ::)
Col, where does it say on his records anything about Prison? I can't see anything like this??
Cheers
Ian
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Hi JDS1949,
1: Ok on The Norwich fellow and his divorce, I had discounted him based on dates, etc, but now I can definitely cross him off as a contender
2: Were any of the Officer graduates going by the name of A or Albert or Bert? I haven't stuck on the original rank, the letter to Nora describes that his rank was his joining rank and not his eventual rank. I therefore look at all Lt's and Capt'ns.
I wouldn't expect a connection to Australia if he was keeping that part secret. There is another thing that is possible here and your research today has made me think of another angle
He was a smarty and he could have just done a walk up start at the British Military and said let me sit the Officers Exam. I'm not sure if he would have needed to undertake training but it's possible and then he wouldn't have to use any of his history, he gets in at the lowest rank without any history.......!!! its just a thought...? :-\
I must try and get hold of the Army lists, I understand that they exist on CD, is this correct???
Thanks Ian
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Hi JDS1949,
you said:
"assumed that as he was discharged from the AIF in the autumn of 1917"
Perhaps he started getting white feathers from old ladies and some conscience kicked in....?
For some reason its looking more likely that he joined later than sooner, but at this stage unknown, I've got a picture in my head that he would turn up at another AIF camp and just start fighting and joining in , at least they had food and toilets. Where do you go in a strange land when you've been thrown out of home.....?? Ok if you've got a girl friend then you might have a home...? but for how long without any money or job...?
Australian Officers had a pretty good existence in London, Albert used to stay at Worleys ? Hotel in Trafalgar Square London, I'm guessing that he would want to continue the high life as man about town, Will-O'-the-Wisp. So, no job, no food, no hotel, no life........... get a job, what is offering? "Permanent Army"
You said: "Yes, he had an explanation, but not one that he would care to give."
and that is why he wasn't put on the stand at his GCM, whatever the explanation it wouldn't get him off the hook, only into more trouble, the excuse was either some mischief, another woman, gambling or other???
Ian
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G'day Colin,
Yes you were right about the doctors certificate, I'd never read it in any detail previously, my take on this is that if the court had sentenced him to jail and hard labour they would need to have a doctors certificate to carry out this sentance.
As we know this didn't happen, he was dismissed from the service, subsequently then didn't leave England by meeting his troop transport ship and didn't return home to Australia
You had me going for a moment.....LOL!!
Ian
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Dear Ian,
Some Army Lists are available on cd - here's the link to the one for August 1918[added benefit over the original - searchable!]:
http://www.armylists.org.uk/wherecanibuy.php?id=3880
None of the Harrisons had an initial letter A for their forenames - nor any possible variation for Albert or Edward. Seven of the eleven had service in the ranks, dating back several years - so clearly not possibles for your man. One had a commission dated in 1914, again impossible for your man, another dated from 1916 - ditto - and the last two were born in 1899, so unless your man looked incredibly young - also impossible.
I'm not totally sure how one became an officer in 1917-18, but, as usual, the GWF has some basic info - see:
http://www.1914-1918.net/training_officers.htm
I don't think that he was sent to prison - there's no mention of it in his papers, as there surely would have been, and any prison sentence would, I strongly suspect, have made it impossible for him to gain a commission in the British Army.
Another possibility has just occurred to me - triggered by your idea of a "picture in my head that he would turn up at another AIF camp and just start fighting and joining in." - Perhaps he did just that. Enlisted in either a British or Australian unit as a private and, because of his knowledge and ability, got himself put forward for officer training? I reckon that would take him about a year, gets him from the Autumn of 1917 to the Autumn of 1918 - or am I just being too fanciful?
It would, perhaps, be useful to know what the AIF were actually doing about him from the court-martial onwards. Did they really just turn men loose? Was there a procedure? Do we know what happened in other cases of a similar type? - I doubt if your man was the only man dismissed the service by the AIF in Europe. Why was there a year's gap between the dismissal from the service and the official discharge? If a man had been dismissed the service, but not discharged, what was his status? As he had been dismissed, why then did he have to ask to be discharged? Armies tend to do things by the book - so what did the book say?
Given that there were two occasions after he was dismissed when the AIF had some form of official contact with your man - once when he applied to be discharged and again when somebody knew that he had entered the British Army, then presumably there was still some kind of official AIF process going on - they had not cut him loose completely. It also occurs to me that Harrison himself would have been unlikely to tell the AIF that he was now a commissioned officer in the British Army - so that information would have to had come from the British Army, which, if correct, means he was using his real name.
All that having been said, I'm not sure that it gets us very far. I shall be back at Kew at some point next week and I shall have another go at trying to find something. I'll start with the same list as last time - this time looking at the Lieutenants, and then see where we go from there.
jds1949
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Hi Ian,
I am no specialist in Military affairs but think my suggestion could well be worth exploring further. It all fits together so neatly.
As I understand it, a Court Martial would only deal with serious offences and pass an appropriate sentence, but what if there were also less serious charges to be tried. Would they not be dealt with by the CO and possibly end up with a period in the Glass-House?
It seemed to me a very harsh sentence for twice overdrawing his pay-book and being AWOL for less than 2 weeks, especially for an Officer during Wartime.
What if there was much more going on and most had been dealt with by the CO resulting in a 12 month sentence, but he had also submitted these 3 offences for a CM judgement. We know he was dismissed but what would happen about the 12 months sentence? Surely he would still be required to serve it. Can anyone clarify this please?
The Doctor's Certificate of fitness is page 52 of 68 of the GCM file that Ian provided a link for in Reply #43.
This certificate is dated 26.7.17, just 3 days before the CM hearing!!
Colin
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Dear Colin,
Just to explain a little more fully why I wrote that I didn't think that Captain Harrison had been sent to prison. If he had been sentenced to prison it would surely have been recorded on his service papers and it isn't. Indeed there is a letter from his wife dated 28th April 1918 [page 25 of the service record] asking for news of her husband; if the AIF had had him locked up at that time then then I think they would have told her so. It also states that in dismissing him the court also exercised clemency - which I take to mean that that was all they did - they did not lock him up as well.
Clearly there is something unusual going on here, that's why this is such a fascinating story. I doubt if Captain Harrison was the first officer to overdraw his pay - or to overstay his leave and had he chosen to explain then, I suspect, matters might have turned out differently. But for an army, any army, an officer who breaks the rules and refuses to explain is asking for trouble.
jds1949
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Thanks jds1949,
I haven't got round to checking his service records yet, but I agree that any jail or similar would be noted somewhere. What is nagging away is why AEH requested discharge in England on June 13, but it wasn't granted until Aug 28, which happens to be the 1st anniversary of his dismissal. It seems too much of a coincidence to me, so now I'm off to browse his service records 8)
As you say, it is indeed a fascinating story.
Colin
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I still think Sydney Blamey's will would be worth hunting down http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/1144589?zoomLevel=1 I have no experience of the NSW probate system - the online indexes seen to be for 1928-1932 and 1941-1942 so they miss Sydney's death, but I assume there must be a way of getting a copy.
Carole
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JDS1949
Thanks for all your ideas and comments and the Army list CD info
You asked:
1: “What the AIF were actually doing about him from the court-martial?”
He was transported from Perham Down to London AIF headquarters three days after the CM, where he was to be billeted until his transport ship arrived from Australia to then transport him home, he must of just walked away. I’m guessing that he wasn’t under guard
2: “Did they really just turn men loose?
No I don’t believe that they did but there is nothing to suggest that these men were in custodial circumstances during the time between the CM and return home
3: “Was there a procedure?
I’m betting there should have been. There is correspondence that I will mount that will explain the circumstances of both AE Harrison and TM Robson, soldiers that both remained in England after a CM and had families in Australia that became dependant on the State. I don’t believe that the Military cared what happened after the CM but back in Australia a storm was brewing in high places. Robson got back into Australia a few months later and was taken into custody but escaped and is still at large in Australia
4: Do we know what happened in other cases of a similar type?
The info about Harrison and Robson is all that is known by me
5: Why was there a year's gap between the dismissal from the service and the official discharge?
There would have been a period of waiting for the troop ship, the voyage back to Australia and the walk from the warf to the NSW Military headquarters to sign the discharge papers, all up a couple of months. Notwithstanding we don’t know what exactly he was up to, It took 12 months because he obviously decided he was going to stay, needed the formal discharge so he could initiate some other formality, (ie) proof of service document (maybe used for his next commission)
6: If a man had been dismissed the service, but not discharged, what was his status?
Dismissed!!!! And not discharged, no more job no more connection if he had returned to Australia. It is a cockup because he didn’t do the expected thing and return like he was supposed to to be properly discharged so they could close his file. His file remained open because Nora was making people keep it open and the Australian Government were being pressed for his back pay and a war gratuity by Nora, her family and the RSL. Until he came home he was in limbo, while not at home Nora would have a genuine claim on the Australian Government
7: As he had been dismissed, why then did he have to ask to be discharged?
I believe that this would send a message to Nora, the Military and the Government that he wasn’t coming home. This act was important for him as he needed the discharge document and its probable that Nora needed the same final conclusion, the line in the sand
8: Armies tend to do things by the book - so what did the book say?
I don’t think there was ruling on this and the documents that I will mount will probably reinforce this, they were caught off guard by the two we know about and what Australia and the DVA didn’t want was families of disgraced soldiers being dependant on the State after their husbands had been dismissed or no longer required in the service under dishonorable circumstances. The public would not be happy…..!!!
You Said:
Given that there were two occasions after he was dismissed when the AIF had some form of official contact with your man - once when he applied to be discharged and again when somebody knew that he had entered the British Army, then presumably there was still some kind of official AIF process going on - they had not cut him loose completely. It also occurs to me that Harrison himself would have been unlikely to tell the AIF that he was now a commissioned officer in the British Army - so that information would have to had come from the British Army, which, if correct, means he was using his real name.
Note: End part 1: my response was greater than 5500 charactors,
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Part 2: continued
Yes, I agree that on two occasions his circumstances were identified to all. The official process raging in the background was Nora trying to locate him and in-turn embarrassing the Military and the Government into action. I will mount his pay cards, He would only be cut-off completely when he returned to Australia or discharged officially in any country that could process his discharge. I absolutely agree with you that he wouldn’t want the British to tell the AIF of his new arrangements….Yes, I think that I agree with the proposition that the information on his new Military arrangement came from the British and if this is the case then he would be using his real name and through this they were able to reconcile his identity and the British Commission back to EX Captain AE Harrison of the AIF. It seems really probable and sensible…………and logical???????? Unless someone just saw him with his new Uniform working for the British and decided to be really nice and let Nora know about what he was up to in a pseudo formal manner via the official AIF communiqué channels, using a Form of Commission which is not in his AIF records, if it ever existed at all.
Meanwhile, I have always considered he had a name change as his records have been elusive and as yet, unfound. Soooooooooh, where are his records and his commission info???
One more question: Assuming the Australian’s knew where he was, why wouldn’t they send the Provo’s to pick him up and take him back to Australia for some “husband and father responsibility supervision”????!!
Ian
PS: I have to find the documents and will attach ASAP
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G’day Colin,
Col there might have been other stuff going on and if we use the connection between Syd Blamey and AEH there was a good possibility but it wasn’t part of the GCM and so wasn’t part of any sentencing, if there had been a custodial sentence handed down his records would have shown it. And the Australian government didn’t know about his location during this period between the GCM and the Correspondence to Nora. If AEH had been a British Officer he might have been executed so in the scheme of things he got off pretty well. The biggest thing to an Aussie was returning home in shame. The Government made quite sure that all men returned to Australia through GCM and VD etc were published in the papers upon their return.
The medical certificate is a formality and required in all cases that may end up in a custodial sentence. If the subject is not fit for jail a mis-trial or appeal could be mounted as the man wasn’t capable for confinement due to infection, Psychological problems, unable to see, unable to walk or a dozen other things. The jail wants fit blokes to work not sick people to sit in a sick bed.
There is nothing said on the medical Certificate that describes explicitly a custodial sentence, only that he was fit for one.
Cheers Ian
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G’day, JDS 1949
You said:
“What is nagging away is why AEH requested discharge in England on June 13, but it wasn't granted until Aug 28, which happens to be the 1st anniversary of his dismissal. It seems too much of a coincidence to me”
Born: August 28th 1879
Married August 28th 1903 ©
GCM August 28th 1917
Discharged August 28th 1918
Probably more that I don’t know about, perhaps he was an Obsessive Compulsive nutter!!! He may have requested this date……!!
Ian
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Hi Carole
you said:
"I still think Sydney Blamey's will would be worth hunting down"
I agree, his grandson is undertaking the task of the Will and the Coroners Inquest, it means going to the PROV to view it in hard-copy.He'll let us know the outcome, I'm particulary interested in the note he left after his death
Cheers
Ian
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Dear all,
I will try to attach the following:
1: Correspondence regarding AE Harrison and TJ Robson
2: AE Harrison pay cards
Ian
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Dear all,
attached:
1: picture of AE Harrison's British MIC card that requires some discussion later on.
This card is unusually without normal information and has been thought to be not his actual British Permanent Army Medal Card, but after this last week of discussion I am thinking it just might be.
I had thought it might be some sort of secondment or perhaps something to do with Perham Down, but I am changing my mind after some of the discussion in the last week
2: A list of Harrison Officers from sources unknown, if anybody knows the source please let me know. The AE Harrison listed is confirmed as not my man
Ian
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Another idea doesn't seem to have worked, though I am going to Kew on Wednesday and will see what I can find. I had hoped Holmes was a British General, but unfortunately he was also Australian, so clearly AEH did not enlist in his regiment, or did he? The whole thing might be a giant red herring! As i say, I will look on Wednesday, to see whether I can find a likely candidate, and report back afterwards.
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G'ay Redroger,
You said:
I had hoped Holmes was a British General, but unfortunately he was also Australian, so clearly AEH did not enlist in his regiment, or did he?
I think I get what you are meaning, Harrison was a member of Holmes's unit but the unit wasn't an English one, so there would be no British record of this connection
You said: The whole thing might be a giant red herring!
Yep, it could be , but I don't believe intentionally by the services, it is certainly perplexing, the documents are confusing, but if we are to believe what we are seeing on them, then he did join the British permanent army at some stage between 1917 and 1919. If we are unable to confirm this there will be a valid explanation, and I then believe this will be intentional on Harrison's behalf, in that he has concealed his name intentionally to lead us all on a wild goose chase
Maybe Nora knew his circumstances all along and never told the family because of her emotional pain and embarrisment, apart from her own feelings she had the lives and minds of her 4 children to protect. Not too good to hear that your dad was actually alive in England, had been Court Martialled for theft and replaced you for another woman (perhaps)
The children never sighted him nor heard from him. I am 30 years divorced myself and just can't imagine being without my dear children who I love more than life itself. How he did that is quite beyond me? and I had always thought that he would have returned to Australia at some point to communicate with them and see how they turned, out at least. "Getting a bit misty here"
He would have been very proud for numerous reasons, Nora did a good job, from a military perspective, in WW2 another Captain, a Sergent and a young Private in the family, apart from just being great kids, smart, loving, respectful and responsible.
Good hunting
Thanks
Ian
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Ian, My thoughts were to the effect that Harrison's enlistment in the British Army might have been the red herring. If there was Masonic influence from the Major General, then I think it is possible that he re-enlisted in the Australian Army as a 2nd Lt. likely under an assumed name. Despite the problem with his court martial then this would at least have the advantage that his accent wouldn't show. I believe a Major General outranks a Lt. General, so had there been any comebacks, then Holmes could have pulled rank. Anyway, Kew on Wednesday, so I shall see what |I can find.
Roger
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Redroger,
You said,
If there was Masonic influence from the Major General, then I think it is possible that he re-enlisted in the Australian Army as a 2nd Lt. likely under an assumed name:
Then, why all the subterfuge with the reference to the British Permanent Army?
You said,
I believe a Major General outranks a Lt. General, so had there been any comebacks, then Holmes could have pulled rank.
I'm a bit confused, Holmes died in battle between the time he wrote the reference and when the CM was undertaken, it was only his reference that was of future value to Harrison. Harrison used a replacement (duplicate copy) of the original in his CM, keeping the original for future use. This is why the prosecutor or someone mentioned that they were familiar with the signature. So who is the Lt General?
You’ve really got me thinking now!!!
Cheers
Ian
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Dear all,
Just a few notes for understanding the content of the previously attached documents:
1: MIC: Medal Index Card:
the MIC has been the subject of numerous threads on numerous military forums and as yet still not completely understood by the experts and certainly not me!!
Campaign: BEF 1914 – I had always thought this to be an error or another lie and it could be!!! According to his records he joined the British Expeditionary Force in Alexandria March 18th 1916 however recent research suggests that this could be when he joined the AIF which was 12/12/1914 another aspect is that he was apparently with the Militia in Australia prior to the AIF and it is possible that this is considered the BEF?????
ORG: apparently means original and I have seen this on other MIC’s but I still don’t have an explanation of what Organisation means. ?????
Australian Imperial Force: what is this doing on a British MIC. ?????
Rank: Capt, yes he was a captain in the AIF but he was initially a T 2L/t in the Regular forces of the British Army, so why is this saying a Captain and no mention of initial rank which all other MIC’s have initial rank described.. ???
Suspense list /17: I understand this to mean he was to have no medals, suggesting that this MIC was definitely made after his GCM and that the list related to 1917, the word suspense (suspension ?) is not quite as bad as Forfeited, so maybe there is some way for him to get the medals later. ???
Forfeited /17 (crossed out) : I’m guessing this means the same as above but superceded by the above Suspense list/17 (no medals) and I’m also guessing that the word is actually forfeited, if anybody else can see what it says please let me know
Disembarkation Date: I’ve seen this elsewhere on other MIC’s obviously there isn’t an entry.
There is nothing on the rear of the card so there was no medal exchange or correspondence regarding medals or applications for medals, no forwarding addresses which would occur if there was exchange or dialogue
So I have considered this card to be a record of an Australian Officer maybe seconded to the British Army, noting, there is no mention of a British unit, or for that matter, an AIF unit. What is this card and what is its meaning? It is really just saying if a man called AE Harrison a Captain in the AIF turns up wanting medals don’t give him any because he is on the Suspence list of 1917.
More questions and no answers??? Any ideas are welcome (very, very welcome)…….?
2: Harrison Pay Card:
well obviously a messy document, lots of reference to Nora who should have been getting an Allotment (AL) interesting that there is a mention of Discharge in 1917 when as we know it wasn’t until 1918, so I guess this is really dismissed 1917….?.
You can see the business of the War Gratuity and lots of indecision and confusion surrounding whether to give it or not, Calculations regarding remaining pay etc for Nora’s purposes and if you check the dates it went on for years after the war
Ian
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Ian, Thanks for pointing out that Holmes had been killed between writing the reference and the court martial. Obviously he cannot have pulled rank unless the Masons have powers beyond our understanding. Regarding the medal car, I would suggest that the suspended entry was made around the time of the GCM, but before the outcome was formalized. Will keep you posted of anything I find tomorrow.
Roger
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Ian, Unless I'm totally confused the Lt. General was the Officer who confirmed the sentance.Think I have a solution to the reference to the BEF, i.e. the campaign against the Central powers in 1914 was run by the British Expeditionary Force, of which the AIF became a part.
Roger
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G'day Redroger,
I thought that the G'riders did have powers beyond our understanding...LOL
OK understood, on the definition and description of the BEF, I had made an assumption that the BEF hadn't started until the allies went into France and I had assumed this from an impression I got from reading lots of MIC's, therefore about 1916.. "I'm wrong again"
Regarding the Kew visit to check some records, I'm pretty keen for you and anybody else that might have a go at this to not waste their time and effort, due to the nature of this matter, possible dishonesty, possible red-herrings and the complexity. I am naturally extremely grateful for any assistance both in this IT medium and the harsh reality of physical research at Kew etc. Mindful of this, I'm trying as hard as I can to publish what I've already done, so these men can be discounted or regurgitated and possibly reinterpreted. "My dear wife for some reason says that I've been wrong before??!!
I'm in the background at the present building a couple of tables which I hope will morph into some type of matrix containing all the Records, London Gazette and Medal Index cards that I possess,
I have downloaded quite a few over the last couple of years and as I received them discounted them because of conflicting information. I have since decided that this wasn't a robust method of comparison due to the nature of Harrison's behaviors and possible motives "read- honesty" and so nothing could be as it seems.
I'm beginning to believe that there are serious anomalies between the three important record groups, and as my list improves and increases this impression grows. I'm beginning to see that the MIC's just don't have enough information to make a suitable judgment about identification and only aids to build a case for or against a suitable candidate.
At this stage it's looking like the service record with the man's personal history is the only way to properly determine his past, notwithstanding Harrison's possible interest to throw us off the track
So, back to Kew and searching for AE Harrison's there a couple of these as Officers and a large quantity of Privates. I haven't done much of the enlisted men and I've done about 20 Officers without success. The AE's have been an Alfred Ernest with the Beds and Herts who went on to the Army of Occupation in Germany who has impeccable English history and also another who was with the RMAC and I believe a doctor, although I'm not sure why a doctor was a L/t and I'm still working on him without success, but I did find a mention of him in the LG as a man having a MD
There is an A Harrison DSO who was a possible but I have discounted him also and another in the 130 Bulchas, I found a fellow last night, a JAE Harrison and thought this would be an ideal way to change your name. Just add a "J" to all your original documents and hey-presto you're in the door and a new man with an entire history, so I will do this fellow for sure
There is another Harrison on an MIC who doesn't have any Christian names and I'll do him as well and it goes on and on.
I'll have these lists done ASAP and publish the lists and outcomes here when I have a sensible appearance and result........LOL
Good hunting, thanks again
Ian
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Hi Ian,
The crossed through entry on the MIC looks to be something like Special List/ 17, but the Special doesn't quite look right.
I suppose you have noticed that on his Paycard1 there was reference to the initials being A L in Sept 17. Could this be a clue to a name change or just another Red Herring?
Regards,
Colin
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G'day Col,
I've had many thoughts on the crossed out word in his MIC also, I reckon you might be right, special meaning in big trouble does anybody know what a special list means on an Medal Index card?
I also chased the "A L" thing for a while thinking it was a clue and I now believe it to be a code of sorts for Allotment which is consistant with the subject of pays and Nora's quest to get hold of the remaining allotment, at least that is my take at the moment.
I wish I had more clues on both issues, I've thought of looking for A L Harrison's but haven't done so yet!
Ian
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Dear Ian,
went to Kew today - not much to report and all negative I'm afraid.
There were twelve Harrisons listed as Lieutenants in the Army List [Gradation List] published in April 1918. None of them had the first names Albert Edward in any combination; most had come through the ranks of the British Army or were commissioned before your man was court martialed.
I then looked at the Army List for January 1920 - which actually has a name index - and there is no officer listed with the right initials at any rank that I could see.
I think it is unlikely that A E Harrison was serving in the British Army as a Lieutenant of any kind in the spring of 1918 - at least not under his own name.
I think that it is equally unlikely that he was serving in January of 1920 - again under his own name.
There are, as you know, a number of officers' files under A Harrison, some of which I understand you have seen. As I go to Kew on a fairly regular basis I'm quite happy to have a look at some of those, but as I don't know which ones you've looked at I'm unsure where to start. If you have the references for those you have looked at and can let me have that, then I can try and look at some of those that you have not yet seen.
Regards,
jds1949
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Colin: I read the card as "Suspense list" Ii.e. the award was suspended dependent on the outcome of the GCM.
Ian: I went to Kew yesterday and found the following from the army list, don't know whether you already have it, or whether it's another red herring or useful, but here goes:The Army list for August 1917 shows Capt. A.E.Harrison (AIF) ( date of promotion to rank 4.9.16)as supernumery, not allocated to a unit, similar entry for September, I assume the list was always in arrears. Then the Octoberf list shows AEH as Captain (4.9.16) with the 19th batt NSW whose CO was CRA Pye DSO (19.3.17)
Then it got interesting: There is an A.Harrison 2nd Lt (29.8.17) the day following the GCM shown in the Aug 1918 List in the East Kent Regiment "The Buffs" Significantly I felt he is NOT mentioned in the list for either Aug or Sept 1917, so far as I could see this was his first appearance. On the noticeboard at Kew there is a researcher's website which might be worth checking out, address:mick@the-buffs.com Hope that lot is some use.
Roger
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Roger and Ian
There is a Medal Index Card for this man [A Harrison - East Kents] on the NA website:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=2754160&queryType=1&resultcount=5
unfortunately it gives his initials as W. A. - so not so promising as first thought.
jds1949
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Maybe, maybe not! Remember this is a change of identity. Of course there could always be an error either on the medal card or on the army list. I think this officer ought to be checked out thoroughly if only for the process of elimination. That allocation date to the rank must be a big coincidence!
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Ian & Roger
I've just tracked down the Mick@the buffs connection on the GWF and posted a request to him for any information on the Harrison in the East Kents. I agree this has to be checked and if there is nothing conclusive back from the GWF then I'll have a go myself next week back at Kew.
jds1949
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What day are you going? Perhaps we could co-operate?
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Roger,
Not sure yet - possibly Tuesday - would that suit you?
jds1949
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unfortunately not available Tuesday. After further consulting the calendar find I am not available next week. Managed again to confuse myself.
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I can't do Friday, I'm meeting some old mates for lunch. Let's see what the next couple of days brings then confer again.
jds1949
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Good idea, this topic is bound to move on.
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G'day jds1949,
firstly, many thanks for having a dip at this problem.
You said:
Went to Kew today - 12 L/t Harrison's on the graduation list of 1918, no Al/Ed's, most risen through the ranks of B/Army, or coms'd before AEH GCM & Dismissal August 1917,
Not looking good for 1918....!
1:/ Is there a graduation list for 1919?
2:/ Given the discussions that we've have on this thred, might it be possible that AEH did a stint as a non Officer in the British Army prior to Commission, then appearing to be a soldier rising through the ranks........?
3:/ If you are saying that most were Coms'nd before AEH was CMtl'd, does this mean they were Coms'nd in 1917 and the List was created in 1918?
The Army List for January 1920 -
I can't understand why there aren’t any AE Harrison's in the 1920 list, I believe there should be at least one according to the Lond Gaz and other sources (see attached list) This man I am referring to is Alfred Ernest Harrison who has an impeccable English record and history, so not my man, but begs the question why isn't he on the 1920 Army List??? he was definitely in the Army in 1918 and 1920 and infact 1922 in the Army of Occupation Germany, he was also in Beds and Herts and 4th Bn Norf Reg.
It's difficult to know if we are seeing anomalies in the records or as we suspect AEH isn't really there as AEH. There appears to be some differences between the various resources. I am trying to reconcile the different resources as we speak.
As you say, there aren’t any reasonable AEH's but there are plenty of A's that will require investigation. If we ascribe to the KISS principal then A's must be first to investigate if there no AE's or reasonable alternatives to be found
Regarding the provision of previously researched personnel. Initially, I didn't want to pre-empt or stifle any thoughts or ideas. My original work has turned up nothing, my existing research and documents would appear to be worthless except to remove them as future and potential possibilities. I agree that double work is not a sensible process, I will attach what I have with me today (references and indexes). I intend to re-visit these old records again as my original search criteria is no longer valid. If you want the actual documents I can email these directly to you.
This attachment is an old chronological list of events and includes most of the researched soldiers that I have looked at, I hope it's of some use, the larger lists and work will be sent ASAP
Thanks again
Ian
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Redroger,
You Said, Then it got interesting:
There is an A. Harrison 2nd Lt (29.8.17) the day following the GCM shown in the Aug 1918 List in the East Kent Regiment "The Buffs" Significantly I felt he is NOT mentioned in the list for either Aug or Sept 1917, so far as I could see this was his first appearance.
Yep! I think I have this bloke, I have thought him to be interesting also!!
London Gazette: 11642 10th November 1917
War Office: 10th November 1917: REGULAR FORCES INFANTRY N Lan E
Temp 2nd L/t A Harrison from (Gen list) to be temp 2nd L/t (attd) 29 Sept 1917 with seniority 17 Sept 1914
"From General list": does this mean that A Harrison was already an Officer and was drawn from a pool of men? and what does (attd) mean?
Here is another wild possibility, if you get down to the British Army quickly enough and join up, you're GCM outcome might not be known. Or, you might have pre-arranged your defection some time earlier, so the next day is just a formality
I might have 2nd Lt A Harrison's MIC, I'll let you know, I'll go through what I've got. I'll try and search for this fellow from here and if no good, I'll give Mick of the Buff's a call. Is the unit "N Lan E", North Lancashire Engineers and if so, is this the Buffs?
Thanks
Ian
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And another contender for the 29 August 1917
11412 Suppliment to the London Gazette: 26 september 1918
the undermentioned Temp 2L/t's on appt as probrs to Indian Army
A Harrison from Ches R (attd) 14 Aug 1918
with seniority 29th Aug 1917
Or is it the same fellow that Roger found yesterday but in another unit ?
Ian
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Dear Ian,
To try and deal with your questions in order:
There should be a gradation List for 1919, I shall try and look at it when I next go to Kew [probably Tuesday of next week]
If AEH did enlist as a private soldier finding any record of it is going to be difficult- if he didn't go overseas as an enlisted man then there will be no MIC for him and the odds are that any records will have perished in the 1940 Blitz.
The number of years and days that each Harrison had served in the ranks is listed, the shortest time was over two years, the longest over twenty. For the men who were straight in as commissioned officers, the latest date for commission was June 1917, which pre-dates the court martial.
I agree it is strange that there is no A E Harrison in the 1920 list - I shall look again and recheck this just in case I missed it.
Thanks for the record you attached - that should come in very useful on my next visit to Kew.
Regards,
jds1949
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No Ian, The Buffs is the East Kent Regiment, would be interesting to see whether Units of the Buffs were at Tidworth at the time of the Court Martial. Probably it was pre arranged, and I do wonder whether the Australian Unit that Captain Harrison was apparently transferred to was a real unit, or whether it was a phantom unit existing only on paper to confuse the enemy as no doubt they avidly looked at the army list as soon as they could get their hands on it. Personally I think we are close to an answerre perhaps jds will find out next tuesday. I shall be going to Kew again soon, and will do some more research if the issue is not resolved by then.
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jds1949 and Redroger,
thanks for the update, feedback and the Buffs details, the kew finds etc.
As for the possibility that the joining of the British Army might be a phantom unit on paper only, to confuse the enemy, well its worked well for whoever created it, because its confused everybody for 90 odd years, .................. LOL
The explanation regarding the ranks Commissions etc, well this sort of knowledge explains why I haven't been able to progress all that well previously.
I should mention that there appears to be nearly a month between when AEH was GCM'd and then subsequently dismissed when his sentence was confirmed later the next month. He would have known that his "brief was up" I'm guessing that he would have had the opportunity to make preparations for a new arrangement!!
Looks like the two LG extracts I sent really aren’t anything to do with your man, so I'll keep looking
I'm working feverishly in the background building firstly an MIC holding and explanation spreadsheet, and then I'll try and reconcile the LG extracts to the MIC list, I hope to have it too you ASAP but it's getting complicated
Cheers
Ian
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Remember Ian, he was on the Army List for two months afterwards as a captain in the AIF without a unit before he was transferred (allegedly) to this NSW unit, which I think you should confirm did exist.
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G'day Redroger,
You said:
"he was on the Army List for two months afterwards as a captain in the AIF without a unit before he was transferred (allegedly) to this NSW unit"
When you say the Army list, I gather you mean the British Army list and then the two months afterwards, do you mean two months after the GCM?
And if this is so?, then are you saying that two months after the GCM he was transferred form the Perham Down Hardening and Drafting unit back to his native unit, the 19th Battalion AIF raised in NSW 1915?
Sorry I'm not around much, I'm feverously building my list of holdings and names that I’ve already researched, I'll have some of it finished for broadcast very soon……I hope!
Cheers
Ian
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I've had an epiphany of sorts!!,
Although this lead isn't strictly in concert with the primary quest, which is to establish the movements and dynamics of AEH during the period between his GCM and his apparent establishment into the British Regular Forces, it is, I believe related in some way....... I hope.
While going through all my previously acquired MIC's and Service Records I remembered and identified several other Australians who also had British MIC's similar to AEH's.
I'm keen to understand why this is so? maybe they were just attached or seconded to British Units and this may be why AEH had one. If Perham Down was actually a British Establishment as it was on British soil and not an AIF establishment. However, I would expect to see all the other AIF Officers that were AEH's colleagues to have similar British MIC's and I believe this isn’t so,…….. at this stage!
I'm going to check all the Australian men who had British MIC’s from the Australian perspective (The National Archives of Australia) and then depending on this outcome, I'll then look at any possible British records that may have been created for these men
The upshot...... To establish why Australian Officers and men have British MIC's and to reconcile any possible generic links between these men and Ex Capt AEH
Perhaps, all were discharged in England and this was a way to keep track of them in England, possibly if they were to make some future call upon the British Government for Pensions, Medals, Honors or Awards.
So, when I’ve finished and published my previous research and holdings, I’ll likely be doing this AIF/B-MIC thing in tangent with the primary quest, being currently pursued at Kew
Cheers
Ian
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Ian, I looked at the British Army list for Aug, Sept and Oct 1917. The list includes a section for Officers of Units from the then Empire, Australia, Canada, New Zealand South Africa etc. Harrison appears on each of these lists under the Australian section and is shown without a unit until October 1917 when he is moved to the NSW unit previously mentioned. I haave nothing further to add at present, but wait until our friend returns from Kew after today's visit.On the subject of MICs I suspect that for this purpose the units of the BEF regardless of home or Empire origin were treated as a single entity.
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Dear Ian and Roger,
Not a lot to report I'm afraid.
I have now been through the Gradation lists which cover the period from August 1917 until 31st December 1919 and there was no officer with the name of A E Harrison commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant in the British Army between those dates. The A Harrison that Roger found was listed as follows:
"Harrison Andrew MC dob: 29th July 1889 - In Ranks for 8 years 37 days; Warrant Officer 2nd Class: 1 year 176 days; East Kent Regiment - commissioned 29th August 1917"
The W A Harrison that I found previously has a medal card showing continuous service from August 1915 through to the end of the war [firstly as a lieutenant then as a captain].
So, I think that we can be sure that neither of those gentlemen fit the bill.
I then looked at the records of the first 5 Harrisons listed in WO 374 - pieces 31331 - 31335. All of them had at least the initial "A" in their names - but none of them were our man. They all had service which pre-dated the August 1917 court-martial, either in the ranks or the Territorials or as regular officers.
I did not have time to do any more I'm afraid - but I shall be available next week for another go - perhaps Roger can suggest a day?
I did have a quick chat with one of the desk staff about our man's medal card, she couldn't really shed much light on it, though she was interested in the story. The main expert wasn't on duty today, so perhaps next time he might be.
Now this is a complete stab in the dark, but as I looked at my downloaded copy of the medal card it seemed as if on the box marked "Corps" there had been at some point something else written underneath. Underneath the "Imp Force" there seems to be an irregular slightly curved wavy line which seems to be picked up with a mark between the the final "a" and "n" of Australian above. This is almost certainly me being fanciful - and I have no idea what significance, if any, it might have - just clutching at straws.
Over to you Roger,
jds1949
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Dear Roger,
the business of AEH being reunited with his old unit is explainable (I think)
He gets dismissed in late September, transported to AIF headquarters Westminster London in unknown circumstances 3 days later. Perham Down probably don't want any backlash in the official stats and Australia definitely wants him to be very embarrassed when he returns to Australia
This was the way of Australia, when a man returned to Australia in disgrace he was identified in the media for his deeds. (probably, not too good for a father and husband) so why come back to that???
I'm sure that returning to the 19th Battalion was just a formality and done to just dot the I's and get the stats right and the reputations right.
It's possible that The Hardening and Drafting Camp was partially English, the Commanding Officer was apparently English, so they would have wanted to cleanse this particular incident from their records.
The business of the MIC's and AIF entries isn't clear and the fact that only a handful of AIF soldiers are present on the indexes suggests some sort of arrangement, perhaps secondment. One thing is certain, the AEH MIC that we have, was constructed around the time of his court martial
Cheers
Ian
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Dear JDS1949,
you said:
checked 1917-1919 grad lists and no 2L/t Officer with AEH initials was present:
1: we might have addressed this previously, not sure, if he already had the education to be an Officer and had already earned a Commission in the AIF then why would he need to graduate or be on a graduation list?
2: Shouldn’t he just be absorbed or attached into a unit as a fully fledged Officer and avoid the formality of a graduation list?
3: The London Gazette does not agree with the Graduation lists, it would seem, I will have the entire LG Harrison list up on here soon
Ok on the Andrew Harrison of East Kent Rgmt, it was a chance given the dates as Roger said
Ok on the W A Harrison and continuous service from August 1915 through to the end of the war [firstly as a lieutenant then as a captain].
I agree, neither of these men will be contenders
You said:
I looked at WO 374 - pieces 31331 - 31335. All had the initial "A" - but none of them were our man. They all had service which pre-dated the August 1917 court-martial, either in the ranks or the Territorials or as regular officers.
Yep, I had seen or heard of these files previously and you have confirmed the original thoughts, AEH's grandson Brian was in England a couple of years ago and checked these few records, he came to the same conclusion as you.
Lets hope the main expert is present upon your next visit to Kew, perhaps he might shine some light on the AEH MIC
Yes, there is something written under the "Imp Force" words, in fact the whole box has had something rubbed out and the new words added over it. I've had this card for several years and never seen this before, do we know any forensic scientists?
Amazing!!!!!!!!?
After some time trying all sorts of graphics tricks, I can't make head or tail of the original words underneath. But I'll try and get an expert on it.
Regarding the WO 374 files, would I be right in saying that these files are for Territorial forces and Temporary Commissions?
Given that we believe that AEH entered the Permanent Army would this type of Officer's files be found in WO 339 and not the WO 374 ......?
I'll have a draft list of WO 275 MIC holdings, references, and some of the outcomes in PDF format up in the next couple of days. If you want the XL file to sort and manipulate then just drop me a line and I'll send it to you directly.
Cheers for now
Ian
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Dear Ian,
It's a Gradation list - not graduation - I think it lists all officers by date of commission - from whatever source - so that the seniority is clearly established and published. My understanding is that dates of commission are of importance to the military as they establish who is the senior officer should the situation arise when two officers of the same rank face a problem in the face of the enemy - the earlier commission date takes precedence. If you ever saw the film "Zulu" there was a scene between the Michael Caine and Stanley Baker characters on exactly that point.
As you say WO 374 deals with officers with temporary commissions - but my understanding was that AEH had a temporary commission - on page 4 of your document [Research Details] you quote the form of Commission sent to Nora "as a Temporary 2nd Lieutenant in the Regular Forces of the British Army"
Now you may well be right in thinking that there may be a record in WO 339 and I shall have a look there next time.
I've taken note of your direct email address - which I suspect the mods will erase in the very near future
jds1949
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jds1949, Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday? any one of those three is suitable to me next week. Please pm me. I missed the direct email, but will send Ian a pm.
Roger
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Dear Mod,
Apologies for the o/sight, a senior moment..!!
Cheers
Ian
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G'day jds1949,
"Gradation list - not graduation", well there's a subtlety that I hadn't spotted, I've broken out the flagellator and given myself 10, your right again!!.....!!! LOL
I've never heard of this list, I'm sure if AEH doesn't exist in this list then it's unlikely that he's using his real name. I understand the reason that a Gradation list should exist and if AEH does exist he should be on it. Lets hope "A" for Albert might result in a better outcome
Regarding the note to Nora and particularly the comment, "as a Temporary 2nd Lieutenant in the Regular Forces of the British Army".
There is one other comment worth considering following on from the former comment "this refers to his first appointment to Commission and not to his subsequent rank"
I'm trying to read between the lines here, did they predict or expect that he was promoted from a T2L/t by the time the letter was received by Nora?? or did they really know more than the letter revealed? I've always looked for any rank as he could be anything I guess, and importantly in any TNA series.
I've attached the Nora "Form of Commission" covering letter
Cheers
Ian
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Given that we are searching for a fellow that is allusive at best, I thought I should explain a little more of his past and to what extent he was apparently prepared to confuse his prosecutors or elude his finders.
I have attached two documents that will show that he wasn't too bothered about accuracy, fact or detail during his Court Martial. The first document is from his GCM and was one of several pages describing his service in WW1 and other pertinent details. This page describes his education and military training and is nothing like the truth
The second is a letter written by AEH to a friend Captain Maloney about an incident that occurred at Wilmansrust South Africa during the Boer War. The letter was subsequently published in an Australian newspaper describing a first hand account by Albert
The two documents are linked in a mutually exclusive sort of way.
At the top of GCM document Qualifications, you will notice Question No 9
“Entered the Army from”?
AEH answers this question “No previous Military experience except in Cadets”
This is an absolute fabrication, he had been in the Boer War and Militia prior to joining the AIF on 12/12/1914
Why would he lie about his service?
His Boer War unit the 5th Victorian Mounted Rifles were a formidable mob of fighters but came in for some serious criticism from the British Commanding Officers following a night time raid on their camp by the Boers which was quite successful for the Boers.
I can only surmise that Albert didn’t want the court to know of his Boer War history because his old unit had been given such a bad reputation and he wasn’t up for the explanation or the attached stigma, perhaps some of the panel had been in the Boer War and knew of the incident. Albert was not in the camp on the night of the raid
I have taken the liberty of extracting some of the details of that incident from "Defending Victoria website"
The largest Boer-War Monument in Australia commemorates the service
---the Victorian 5th Contingent, Victorian Mounted Rifles.
The unit suffered the worst casualties of any Australian Contingent. Most
of these occurred in the disastrous action at Wilmansrust, Central Transvaal.
Falsely and foolishly accused of cowardice, three members of the unit later
were court-martialled and sentenced to death for refusing to serve under their
principal accuser British Major-General S. B. Beatson. Lord Kitchener had to intervene and commute the death sentences.
On the evening of 12 June 1901, the Left Wing of the 5th Victorian Mounted Rifles, E F G and H Squadrons, camped at Wilmansrust in South Africa's central Transvaal.
The encampment was surprised when rushed in the dark by the Boers at about 7.30 pm. Their first volley stampeded the horses in H Squadron lines through the camp. The Boers were dressed in captured khaki uniforms and turned up hats. It was impossible to tell friend from foe by the light of dying campfires.
Victorian casualties were heavy. Killed was regimental surgeon Herbert Palmer of Ballarat, and 18 NCOs and men. Five officers and 36 NCOs and men were wounded.
The Victorians were part of a combined column commanded by British Major-General S. B. Beatson, a stern disciplinarian. In the week after the Wilmansrust engagement, the column remained in the vicinity.
For some reason General Beatson was deeply, but unfairly, disturbed about the Wilmansrust action. Until then he had seemed keenly impressed with the Victorians. Now, all that had changed. The facts were very different, with Victorian mounted troops being generally acknowledged as formidable opponents to the Boer 'Commandos', and terrifying to them in some engagements.
The column returned to Middelburg depot later that week. There was by then a state of mutual contempt between the General and the Victorians.
A court of enquiry earlier had begun sittings three days after the disaster, at Uitgedacht. The Wilmansrust camp had been under the overall command of a British officer, Major CJN Morris, Royal Field Artillery. He had personally chosen the position of the picquets. In another extraordinary outburst British General Sir Bindon Blood mentioned the 'chicken-hearted behaviour of the officers and men generally of the Victorian Mounted Rifles on this occasion. We must remember that they were all a lot of recruits together, and that their behaviour was only what was to be expected in the circumstances'.
Since it was acknowledged that the picquets were insufficent and wrongly placed (the responsibility of Major Morris who had personally selected their positions), the comments of Sir Bindon Blood and General Beatson before him were grave slurs on the Victorians. Major William McKnight, the CO of the 5VMR Left Wing at Wilmansrust, called General Beatson to account for his 'gross insults'. A belated apology by the General was curtly refused by McKnight. The Court of Enquiry, meanwhile, had censured British Artillery Major Morris.
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Dear Ian,
I think flagellation was a tad excessive - two days confined to barracks would have been sufficient.
Thanks for all the new documentation. I've got the decorators in for the next few days, but should be free towards the end of this coming week to meet up with Roger at Kew. I suspect that we will have to try and enlist one of the National Archive's specialists in WW1 for help with this one as I am fast running out of ideas.
Will get back to you as soon as we have something to report,
jds1949
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Dear all,
I have attached a draft list of MIC cards that I hold and have previously researched
1: This is a draft version and requires a lot more work, but is Ok for basing additional research work, or using to reject or confirm possible candidates.
2: Some of the Christian names appear to be a long way from A E or Albert Edward, a good example is Sydney Albert, this is the name given to AEH's first son and there are other similar excursions that I have taken over the years. There are some name excursions that haven't made the list, for example the surname Miller, AEH's mother's maiden name. The experts suggest that many men who change their names use their mother's maiden names.
3: The TNA MIC card downloadable records come as a set-of-six. Some of the names in this spread-sheet are part of those sets-of-six, the additional names have sometimes become of interest because of numerous factors
4: Some of the names will appear to be the same and arn't. Some actually are the same people who have multiple TNA files with different file numbers, obviously, multiple MIC's??
As I built the list, which was from several sources, there were obvious similarities between some men, I have removed as many as I could without wrecking the integrity of the data
5: Some of the men on this list have issues with the spelling of their Harrison surname and this is borne out in the London Gazette also. I will make some more of this issue later on with spelling permutations such as Harrinson, Harrisson, Harris etc
5: Most importantly, I don't believe that the MIC cards are enough on their own to determine a man's identity, this list certainly does show what I hold and to some degree some of the men's details, if any of them appear interesting I can send them on.
I have started a list of London Gazette entries which are quite interesting and will have these finished ASAP
Cheers
Ian
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Ian, If this has not already been done I think it important to establish whether there is a birth record for the A Harrison whose date of entry into the rank of 2nd Lt. is the day following the GCM. If there is then he can be eliminated, if not, then I think he may well be our man. His past record could readily have been cobbled together by the military, but I very much doubt if they would be able to insert a birth record.
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Roger,
I understand your drift, if he's in the BDM's with a birthdate of 1889 then he is a real A Harrison born and bred in the UK, however if there isn't an A Harrison then he's an imposter, my AEH
I agree, we should consult the BDM's for this fellow
Ian
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Ian and Roger,
Just had a quick look on Freebmd [which is not complete] and there is no Andrew Harrison with a birth registered in the last two quarters of 1889. There is one at Prescott for the June quarter, but that can not be this man if he was not born until 29th July. There are several others in the five year period either side of 1889. Part of the problem will be that Andrew Harrison could be a real person but his date of birth was wrong. In my experience there were a significant number of men serving in the army who, for one reason or another, had birth dates which were suspect. This actually reflected society at large at the time where significant numbers of people were hazy about their birth dates.
Roger, it looks like I shall be OK for Kew on Thursday of this week - does that suit you? I usually get there about 11 am.
jds1949
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So, with the usual caveats we may be on to something with the guy from the Buffs. My father enlisted in 1915 aged 16, having put his age up three years to do so, but though there are other reasons that wouldn't apply to a man still of military age.
jds thursday will do nicely,please pm me details, I can make it for 11am approx, subject to train punctuality.
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I haven't anything to add to this as I know nothing about military records at Kew, but I'm still following the story with interest.
Is there any sign of Syd's will? I'm still hoping he might have said something about Albert in it.
Carole
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Hi Carole,
I'm still waiting for Brian AEH's grandson, to make contact, I think he's still shell shocked with what you found out about Syd.
I'll give him a ring and ask how he's going and get back to you ASAP
Cheers
Ian
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Just a thought about Andrew Harrison - I don't want to throw a spanner in the works but there is an Andrew Harrisson (two Ss) birth registered Hollingbourne Dec 1889. He's in the 1891 census living with his parents Albert and Sarah at Otterden in Kent. Exactly the right place to live to join the Buffs.
Carole
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Hi Carole,
Bingo!!
Looks like the fellow Roger has been chasing, and further evidence of the spurious spelling issues associated with this matter.
I am always being asked if I spell my name with one S or two S's, the interesting thing is there are very few Harrison's with two S's and probably the problem started with a transcription error in a Parish register anyway.
However this is exactly the sort of smoke screen that could allow AEH to use his old Commission qualifications and yet be invisible to enquiry from the AIF, one simple "S" would do it
Thanks Carole,
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Roger and JDS1949,
I'm guessing that Andrew is no 41 in my list could you confirm this?
a Sgt No L/8798
Ian
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So now we know there was a 2Xs Harrisson born in Kent in 1889, indicative, but not yet conclusive, the A. Harrison I found in the army list had only one S. As I say, a strong indication, but I would like to eliminate a Harrison with one S b Kent 1889 before I was sure, and do further research on this guy. If he had died in 1913 say, I would think that would be suggestive in itself.Correct Ian!
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Roger,
if you say so, as I have said there is ample evidance that the Army got it wrong many times, so Carole's Andrew could be the same fellow as yours with a simple spelling mistake at the army end
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Ian, I was confirming that this Harris(s)on was No 41 on your list. There are always at least 2 types of mistake,accidental and deliberate.It could and likely was, a spelling mistake by some army clerk, or it could be part of a slightly deeper cover up.See what we find Thursday.
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Roger and Carole,
OK, regarding item 41 thanks, thought it might be, and spelt with one S, I'll see if I have his MIC and send it on if I have it
I mounted this particular note in message 87 and here it is again just to press the point, that this spelling issue occurs quite often
THE LONDON GAZETTE, 20 JUNE, 1924. 4809
INFANTRY.
1th Bn. Midd'x. R.—The surname of 2nd Lt.
A. E. Harrisson is as now described and not
as in Gaz. dated 3rd June 1924.
THE LONDON GAZETTE, 3 JUNE, 1924. 4439
INFANTRY.
1th Bn. Midd'x R.—Alfred Ernest Harrison.
4th June 1924.
Take a look at No 85 on my MIC list, there is info on the card referring to AE Harrison. I have earmarked this soldier for further research. albeit he was a private, but as we have said earlier he could have turned up in 1917-18 and just started fighting for a feed
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Continuing on from the previous message regarding Alfred Harrison AKA
A.E Harrisson, I have attached his MIC for analysis
Although this man is a private he is definitely a person of interest because of the reference to AE Harrisson on the top of the card and also in the body of the card
There appears to be some confusion as to his real name, his unit is in question and refers to T/1071 ASC as a reference to look elsewhere for information on the same man, also the text in the R/H bottom corner is difficult to read and understand but definitely refers to AE Harrison
Can anybody decipher the text on this card, it looks like "
Parties for ?????????/ TFM # & correct name AE Harrisson Auth # C 5.A."
I presume that ASC is Army Services Core, what would this unit actually do?
It also looks like the 14th London Reg, Middlesex Reg and ASC ? what might be going on here?
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Dear Ian,
re: the medal card for Alfred Harrison/Harrisson
From my reading of the card he served with both the ASC and the Middlesex Regiment. I suspect that most of his service was with the Middlesex Regiment as the asterisk next to that entry denotes what would have been inscribed on his medals. He was also awarded the Territorial Forces Medal for his pre-war service with 14th London Regiment. The following from the Long Long Trail explains a little of this:
The Territorial Force War Medal, 1914-1920
This is the least commonly issued medal. It was insituted in 1920 and only applicable to men or women who had served in a unit of the Territorial Force. To qualify, the soldier must have completed four years or more service prior to 4 August 1914, and if not still serving must have rejoined by 30 September 1914; they must have agreed to serve overseas by the same date; they must have served overseas at some point up to and including 11 November 1918; and they must not have otherwise qualified for a 1914 or 1914-15 Star.
Only 33,944 of this medal was issued, to members of the TF and the TF Nursing Service.
As you write, there had clearly been a misrecording of this man's name, but the note at the bottom right states:
"Parties for stamping [i.e. stamping his correct name on the rim of the medal] T.F.M. # & correct name A. E. Harrisson [second "s"" underlined for emphasis] - Authorised * C 5 A"
The written note on the top of the card states:
"See T/1071 ASC A E Harrisson#"
I would suggest that this card refers to an Alfred E Harrisson [mistakenly recorded at some point as Harrison] who was a pre-war territorial soldier with the London Regiment - recalled at the beginning of the was - did some time with the ASC before being transferred to the Middlesex Regiment and then served abroad some time after 1916.
Tempting though it might be to think there is a connection - I suspect that it is highly unlikely that this has anything to do with our man. It would be truly bizarre to think that anyone would go to such elaborate lengths to fake an identity - there were much simpler ways to do it - if it was done at all.
I shall be meeting up with Roger on Thursday and we shall see what we can find.
jds1949
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For what it's worth Ian, I agree with JDS on all aspects of this card.
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Dear Jds1949 and Redroger,
thanks for your insightful comments here!
In context with our ever-present issues of accidental or intentional misspelling, this fellow was of interest given the reference to AE Harrison, the confusion with his entire name and the way his circumstances were broadcast in the London Gazette. I agree absolutely that for this man to be AEH was very improbable. You have confirmed absolutely that he isn’t in contention
Notwithstanding this fellow’s unsuitability on this occasion, the issue of an error in spelling and the possibility that it could be intentional always begins the process of doubt in my mind. I absolutely agree with you that in this case to go to so much trouble in the creation of an entire history is much too complicated considering how easy it would have been to achieve the same end with simpler methods.
I have adopted a credo or overarching and governing methodology in the hunt for AEH which is “ never overlook or discount a coincidence”
Interestingly, I have never considered a Private previously. This change of philosophy has its origins in this forum thread, it may have some long term merit in the future, if all other leads are exhausted researching through the more conventional and logical processes.
Specifically, the technical issues associated with the unraveling of the MIC vagaries are fantastic, things such as “stamping” were unknown to me and quite perplexing albeit simple explanation. Unresolvable words like this in context with the obvious interests in this card do begin to take on a whole new mysterious character until broken down into logical sentences and meanings, as you so clearly, have done here.
At great expense to the management I've joined Ancestry tonight and took a look at the MIC that was referred to in the upper border on the original card, being A E Harrisson, ASC & 14 Lond Reg T/1071 - On the new card, a reverse reference to the original card in the top border was written (ie) Alfred Harrison 208291 referencing the first card to be viewed, So, quite obviously two cards, one man and an Army spelling mistake.
Following my MIC enquiries in Ancestry tonight, I located some other similar misspellings of Harrison, which I will investigate. I also researched a significant number of A Harrison's (non Officers) without any success at all.
It's a pity that Ancestry doesn't have the Officer's records.
Of significant interest, I entered the search phrase AIF into the Ancestry search engine and received 520 AIF Men and Officers who hold British Medal Index Cards. - Initially it appears that there are men and Officer’s who have almost identical MIC’s to AEH, complete with phrases such as “Suspense list” and “Disembarkation date” - I’m not sure what this means yet and I will continue to view the cards and try to ascertain some clue as to why AIF men have these cards and importantly any connection with a continuance of service into the British Army.
Thanks again
Ian
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Ian, In an attempt to widen the search it might be worthwhile to see whether one or preferably more of these men referred to as having entries regarding suspense list etc. have any record of GCM against them. The thought of possibly an unofficial penal battalion springs to mind. If a pattern emerges then it might be worthwhile looking for a man with an uncommon surname in this context, to see where it takes us.
Roger
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Roger,
I agree that the issue of the similar MIC's must be resolved in concert with the conventional research that is evolving at Kew with yourself and jds1949
I'm wishing I could meet up with you both at the TNA and at least make a nuisance of myself. These abstract and peripheral research sidelines that I am undertaking are to some extent, all I can offer, given the tyranny of distance between Oz and the UK. Specifically, the location of the records, your mutual expert knowledge of the British military matters and the belief that AEH's fate and history lies in England, make this quest a UK based matter. And here I am, trapped in the Colonies!!...... LOL
As I said last week, (prior to the discovery of 520 MIC's) I will extract about 10 suitable UK-AIF MIC's and determine if these men returned to Australia, this is a fairly simple task as there is an Australian Nominal Roll describing what happened to each man at the end of the war, KIA, RTA, Dismissed etc
Depending on this outcome, I propose to take a look at some of their Australian Service Records and then depending on this outcome, check if they have a British Military connection and importantly a Service Record
If you or anybody else has a better idea, please let me know?, perhaps the TNA have some specific knowledge of this aberration??
You said:
"possibly an unofficial penal battalion springs to mind. If a pattern emerges then it might be worthwhile looking for a man with an uncommon surname in this context, to see where it takes us"
Sounds plausible, sounds like the place for all the Lawyers and Pollies to congregate and swap secrets, The Arthur Daley types, AEH would really fit in...LOL
Notwithstanding the humor, if men were in short supply and as we know from history, being a crook doesn't limit heroism. Men with nothing to loose and a lateral and devious way of thinking could be your most valued soldiers. It’s possible, they probably wouldn't be your most soldierly men, just handy to have around when times get tough, just ask the Yanks who give their jail destined young men two options, Iraq or jail.
If it happens now? why couldn't it happen then? good idea!!
Ian
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Ian, it has certainly happened throughout fairly recent British Military History, some men were given a choice, the army/navy or the hangman, particularly after the end of transportation.
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Dear Ian,
Roger and I met up this morning at the NA and spent an enjoyable, but relatively fruitless few hours on the quest.
We first checked the London Gazette entries for A H Harrison between August 1917 and December 1925 - about 8 hits, of which only 2 were relevant. The first was the announcement of the court-martial - nothing new there. The second was potentially more interesting:
Dated 15th October 1919 Bedf. & Herts R. 51st Bn. - lt A E Harrison [4th Bn Norf. R. T. F.] to be acting Capt. while commanding a Co. 12th May 1919.
The Army List for September 1919 had an entry for Harrison A E Lt 4th Bn Norfolk Regiment - commissioned 19th June 1918.
A quick check on the relevant Gradation List gave no officer of that name commissioned on that date. A few moments of hope - dashed when we talked to one of the experts who informed us that the Gradation Lists only covered permanent commissions [not what I had been led to believe earlier] and that temporary officers would not be listed.
Ordered up the man's file and found that it could not possibly be our man - this man was Captain Alfred Ernest Harrison and had a service history which pre-dated our man's court-martial. Indeed, at about the same time as AEH went awol this man was at Ypres, receiving a gun shot wound to his right knee on 31st July 1917.
In between finding the London Gazette entries and getting the file, we spoke at some length to another of the experts about the search. She seemed to think that we had covered pretty much all of the obvious possibilities. She made two suggestions:
1. to look at the Army Lists in the early 1920s - just to make sure that somehow our man hadn't slipped passed unnoticed
2. seriously consider the possibility that our man served on into the 1920s and that if that was the case then any records of him would not be at the National Archives, but still with the Ministry of Defence.
Thoughts and Reflections on the above:
The information about the Gradation Lists means that now we can only say with certainty that no man named AEH was commissioned as a Permanent [as opposed to Temporary] officer between August 1917 and 1920. That leaves the obvious possibility - covered - I think - by the searches in the WO 374 files for temporary officers.
Roger and I are pretty much agreed that the next step would be for you to contact the MoD to see if they are holding any papers for an officer named AEH.
The address/details are as follows:
Historical Disclosures MP 555
Army Personnel Centre
Kentigern House
65, Brown Street
Glasgow G2 8EX
email: disc4@apc.army.mod.uk
Website: www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/service_records.html
My understanding is that these guys will want money and you have to wait for months [literally] before you hear from them again. I suspect they have a mass of enquiries and only a few staff.
I'm sorry that we haven't come up with more. I shall have a look at the later Army Lists [NOT the Gradation Lists] from the 1920-1924 period next time, but I don't hold out much hope.
Regards,
jds1949
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Ian, When John wrote his reply last evening (BST) I was still travelling home, it was one of those days when Londondon Underground, London Overground and the main line railways had conspired to make it virtually impossible to keep to schedule.However, after a night's rest etc. I can now confirm John's findings. Regarding the MOD enquiry my understanding is that not only will they require money,they will need confirmation that you are or represent AEH's next of kin before they will even talk to you. It is correct that you are looking at months rather than weeks before you get a response other than an acknowledgement.An illustration when I applied for my father's homeguard medal they needed a copy of his death certificate, even though they knew he was over 110 years old. Good luck, and if I can help further please let me know.
Roger
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Dear JDS1949,
firstly, thank you for your interest and time in attempting to unravel this mystery:
The AE Harrison you found who was attached the Bed's and Hert's Reg and the 4th Norf Reg is Alfred Ernest Harrison, I have spent some time on this fellow previously and have quite a lot of info on him in addition to his Service Record. Interestingly there was at one point some concern that his name was actually AE Harris and not Harrison at one stage, another reason to suspect his authenticity.
However further research revealed an impeccable history with significant personal references, and family connections consistent with a ridgy-didge British AE Harrison, I have attached a page from his service record, could you please confirm this is the man you found
The non listing of Temporary Officers in the Gradation list is both good and bad, not having them in the list is a serious shortcoming, but the fact that have this knowledge is better than being misled by the false understanding that he should be in the list and isn't.
In relation to the conversation with the NA expert and her subsequent suggestions, I tend to agree that we are amidst a research process that has covered most of the obvious possibilities, that are either logical or consistent with accepted procedures and methods.
However, this doesn't account for the possibility of information DISTORTION !!!!
I had made an informal approach to the MOD a couple of weeks ago, they haven't got back to me yet, and I didn't expect an answer any time soon. I know of the requirements made of record requestors and these are quite onerous particularly if you are unable to provide such things as the unit or regiment or other relevant particulars. I'll now make a formal enquirery complete with all the unsuccessful background research to date and his personal and AIF military records.
I'm not all that confident about a successful outcome at the MOD. Contemporary privacy rules are good for us all and are usually applied equally across the board for good reason in most circumstances. On this occasion, I would like to inspect quite a few records assuming there might be several men of interest as in the NA records. Never the less, I will ask?!!
It is interesting that you mention that as a result of the limitations of the Gradation Lists not having Temporary Officers listed, that we now know that there were no Permanent Officers with the name AEH commissioned between August 1917 and 1920.
I would love to be 100% sure of any resource, I am beginning to believe that there are so many aberrations in these records, files and indexes that there is some doubt in my mind as to their accuracy. Notwithstanding that we are lucky to heve them at all!! I make the example of the A E Harrison listed in the WO338 written index, extracted and posted here two weeks ago, this is a long number (210475) in the WO338 series and when you go to that record it doesn't exist???? Interestingly this Albert Edward Harrison has his unit smudged out by an ink blot, Alfred Ernest Harrison is the next entry of 218661
A couple of questions:
I understood that Temporary Officers had their commissions withdrawn when the war finished in 1918, Why would a Temporary Officer go on after the war had finished and his records be located in the yet unreleased records at the MOD. Weren’t Temporary Commissions only operational during the War?
If there were no AEH permanent Officers Commissioned in the Gradation list up until 1920 then logically why and how would his records be in the unreleased MOD files. As usual I could be missing something here?.....LOL
As you say, maybe some future luck in the Army lists 1920-1924
I have attached two documents, the one I attached a couple of weeks ago the W)338 index describing A E Harrison long number 210475 with the ink smudge and also Alfred Ernest Harrison 218661 and also Alfred Ernest Harrison's Commission application document for confirmation
Interestingly, with Alfred Ernest Harrison he is given a Temporary Commission in February 1920 after the War has ended, and his records are with the National Archives, how does this work?
Many thanks
Ian
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Roger,
As with, JDS, thanks for your interest and time in attempting to unravel this mystery:
Ok ,with the prerequisite information that I will require at the MOD, this isn't the first time that I have arrived at this same point in researching AEH and I am prepared for any request that the MOD might make of me.
Were you able to take a look at any of the A Harrison's in the WO339 series and if so which ones?
Cheers
Ian
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After attaching the above Alfred Ernest Harrison document, I thought I should read and understand it.
Interestingly, it turned out to be the advice to quit his Temporary Commission as a Captain
Ian
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What would be very beneficial is A.E. Harrison on the Electoral Rolls for 22 Goring Road, Bowes Park, especially the 1918 Absent Voters Rolls, then 1919, 1920, and onwards until a Woman's name appears with his or alternately who lives at 22 Goring Road if AEH is never listed. As a British Subject he should be allowed to vote regardless of where he was born.
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G'day Barry,
this fellow Alfred Ernest Harrison is not our man 99.9 % and has risen to the surface in this discussion as his initials "AE" are a match, as are some of his other Military attributes. His British references are perfect and just too good to be a fabrication.
However, the voter’s rolls are certainly an aspect that I hadn't considered at this point. The problem with leaving the Military search process is that the links in the chain go missing. We could end up with a dozen AE Harrison's and all with identical attributes using the voters rolls, (or am I wrong) ?
I have a list of possible AEH's in the British Death Certificates, but because there is no place on the British certificates for place of birth, it's impossible to determine the right fellow. I built a logical matrix of age verses date of birth verses date of death and then created a short list of age at death possibles. I'm guessing that if my AEH kept his name he is one of them, but without the Place of birth it's all just academic
I could be wrong about the death certificates and this could also apply equally to the voter's rolls? this begs the question, what is written on the Voters rolls entries?
Thanks
Ian
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JDS1949 and Redroger,
have you taken a look at the London Gazette entries on this thread in reply 7, 8 and 9
Were these indicative of those seen at the NA yesterday? - I have found the LG to be very particular of spelling, punctuation, case and sequence, subsequently I have squeezed out many more entries that I'm putting into a sequential date order list, could this new ordered list or the lists on 7, 8 and 9 be helpful? or just a distraction?
Another issue is that the indexing and search engine operate on OCR IT technology and it doesn't always get things right on the first pass, (or second sometimes)
Ian
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Any news on the will?
Carole
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Dear Ian,
I can confirm that the record I looked at for A E Harrison was indeed the one from which you posted the extract and which we all agree can not be your man.
I shall try to chase down the long number reference for the AEH on your handwritten list when I am next at Kew.
I am not an expert on the detailed procedures of the British Army, but I don't think that temporary commissions ceased on the day the war ended. My great uncle was an officer [temporary] in the Lancashire Fusiliers and he remained in the army until he was invalided out on health grounds early in 1920. He was still holding his temporary commission at that date.
At some point over the next couple of days I shall go back and look in detail at the London Gazette extracts that posted earlier and I shall let you know my thoughts when I've had a chance to do that.
On a more general point, all of these records that we have been looking at form a tiny fraction of the millions of pieces of paper that were generated during and immediately after the First World War. The British Army went from being a small [by European standards] organisation of a few hundred thousand to several millions almost overnight. The existing administration procedures were totally swamped and new ways of doing things had to be invented in a very short space of time. In the intervening 90+ years those same records have been "blitzed" weeded and moved on more that one occasion - it is hardly surprising that we are having problems finding exactly what we want. I strongly suspect that our failure to find our man is more to do with the chaos of history than to any conspiracy to deceive - at least as far as the authorities are concerned. If AEH served in the British Army under his own name after his court-martial, then there was a record of that service. If it has not survived - then we have a problem. If he, for whatever reason, served under any other name - then our chances of finding anything more are virtually non-existent. The document dated October 1919 and sent to his wife concerning AEH's temporary commission in the British Army would, to my mind, strongly suggest that he served under his own name.
I should add that I have had at least two and possibly three examples in my own researches of men who were said to be officers in one document and for whom no further proof seems to exist; that includes one who had a long number for which there was no file. These things happen.
jds1949
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Ian, Nothing further to add at present. On my next visit to Kew (don't know when) I am willing to undertake to find any documents you need by reference.
Roger
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Dear all,
before I comment and answer all the latest events and emerging research outcomes. I thought that I might digress to a story of another AIF soldier who became a National interest upon his State Funeral in 2004. I thought this story might strike a cord, given that we are searching for a fellow of similar characteristics, The two women who eventually unravelled his past, did so without his records using deduction and some good luck
Who is the mysterious Harold Katte, AKA Marcel Caux?
The mystery of Marcel Caux was so complex that the Australian Government had his body examined after he died to confirm his identity. Doubts were raised about the identity of the 105 year old soldier when Australian newspapers found there was no record of a soldier named Caux fighting for the AIF in WW1. The Australian Government was beginning to get worried that Mr Caux might not be who he said he was and given they were about to give him a State funeral in Sydney on Friday August 27th 2004, it might not look good if he actually wasn’t who he said he was. Never the less the Australian DVA were emphatic that he had served in the AIF. Meanwhile his service records were secured and not to be opened, suggesting some sort of strange conspiracy, becoming national news in Australia!
His family knew nothing of his war service until 1989 when the French made contact offering him the Legion of Honour for his WW1 service, which he accepted. He had become Marcel Caux by the time he married Irma Davis in 1929, she believed him to be French. Their Marriage Certificate records him as being born in Brest France. She was Belgian born and was convinced he was French. Although there is no record of a divorce, he then married Doris Young in 1949, this time claiming he was born in Quebec, he is then known as Marcel Cause aged 44.
The first deception in Caux’s story came in 1915 when he enlisted at 16 saying, he was 18 with his father’s signature on his enlistment papers. His father, Percy Katte, effectively sending his 16 year old son to War in Egypt and then France, to grow up in a very big hurry.
He was wounded three times firstly in France at Pozieres 1916, then Villers Bretonneux in 1918 and then at Amiens where his knee was shattered and subsequently locked solid for life. His unit lost 6848 men, killed, wounded or missing in 12 days around Pozieres, the total Australian casualties in six weeks was 23,300. Caux or Private Katte as he was then known was apparently AWL twice, firstly during 1917 at Le Harvre and again in 1918 in Brest apparently posing as a Frenchman.
After the war he returned to Australia with a rigid right leg and was subsequently refused an invalid pension, the physician insisted that if he could stand up he didn’t need one, Disillusioned with the Army he tore up his Army history and photographs and moved into the Australian bush where he became a Carpenter and an absolute opponent of War. He claimed for the next 80 years that his injuries were from WW2 and he was too young for service in WW1
He had not spoken of his WW1 history for 80 years, until 2001, he had never attended Remembrance day or Anzac day services. When he began to speak of his exploits his own narratives were riddled with inconsistencies and evasions. There were secrets in his service records that would threaten to undermine the hero-making machinery that ultimately ended in his State funeral. At different times he had laid claim to at least five different names, six birth places, three nationalities and five occupations.
The Katte/Caux story demonstrates what war can do to ordinary people. It also shows how one deception can lead to another and nearly a century later can embarrass the present. Caux was one of the last five Australian survivors of WW1. The French Government had honoured him as the last Australian survivor of the Battle of Pozieres
Just so there is no possible confusion here, this is definately not AE Harrison. This story is now the subject of a book "Marcel Caux A life Unrevelled" the Author and historian : Lynette Ramsey Sliver and Military Researcher Di Elliott and there is much about Marcel Caux, the book and the State Funeral on the NET.
You might well ask, how did Lyn and Di establish that Marcel and Harold were one and the same soldier without his service records? (his name change was in his records) but they were secured.
After some serious research they determined that Harold Katte was not repriated back to Australia on his designated troop ship the HMAT Runic. However, there was a soldier who was repriated to Australia aboard the HMAT Runic, with no record of him leaving Australia or for that matter fighting for Australia, his name was Marcel Caux, sounds pretty simple in this context...... !
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Hi Carole,
No answer from Albert's grandson Brian at this stage, I don't want to push too hard at this stage as he's pretty busy with his Salvation Army responsibilities.
If I haven't heard from him by next week I'll harass him a bit and possibly take the reins
Ian
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Dear JDS1949,
Ok, regarding the confirmation on the Alfred Ernest file
The man on the long number reference isn’t my Albert Edward Harrison given the year of birth identified in the RH column is 1888. His long number goes nowhere unless you can find it. The list is part of a huge on-line resource from the NA and is the WO338 index. The page extract that I mounted here is one of a huge bundle of Harrison’s Harris’s, Harrisson’s, Harrinson’s etc that I downloaded last week about 250meg of them. A very valuable resource for anybody researching UK Military Officers in the UK
Ok, on your info regarding temporary Commissions and the cessation of those commissions after the war etc
Your comments regarding the records are also understood and I agree totally with you about all your comments and sentiments. We are so lucky to be an organized and thorough race and culture, we wouldn’t be doing this nor would we have this interest, or this website without our organized archives or enquiring minds.
As for the possibility to locate AEH’s records or fate if he changed his name, I agree that it does appear to be an impossible task, but I will continue to investigate all the logical possibilities and maybe some illogical ones until they are all exhausted and then access what is left. The economies of scale, how much life left and how many records and clues left……… LOL
Yep, I agree, these things do happen, all the leads might have dried up and I guess that we could be doing something else with our time, but actually, I like brick walls they make you think a bit
Cheers
Ian
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Dear Roger,
thanks for the offer or further research, once I have my lists organised and sensible there could be a couple of chaps that are worth investigating, naturally this is in tandem to the more formal MOD enquiries that I intend to initiate in the next couple of weeks.
I want to complete all the LG entries, matrix’s and lists prior to any communication with the MOD.
In context with what JDS has said regarding AEH retaining his original name, I tend to agree with him, but I do believe that AEH might have become a simple "A" or Albert which would be enough to make him meld into the many other A's
I believe that Albert would have all the hallmarks of a narcissist who was given an arm chair ride by all his older siblings, originally 17 and eventually 9, this is the bloke who got married on his birthday and had many other important events attached to his birth date. I believe that he was proud of his family name, education personal and military history and like many successful men with rank in the military driven by ego. Therefore, I agree that he will retain his name and somehow evade his family by simple means not any created by the military
He was the youngest, smart and got the best education, his mum died when he was 16 prematurely after having and bringing up 16 children some of whom died in infancy and youth. Albert was then looked after by his big brothers and sisters and each of the three youngest children including my grandfather Arthur, were quite self indulgent if not narcissistic.
Albert’s dad had two wives which account for an additional two children in the mix, his first wife died giving birth to the second child.
Cheers
Ian
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Ian, When you are ready please contact me either by email or pm. I was interested in the Caux/Katte story, and read it thoroughly.When I started and saw the Katte name I was convinced that he had possibly fought on both sides, and was reminded of an incident when the late French President Francois Mitterand awarded the Legion d'honneur to all the surviving men of Strasbourg who fought in WW1. The award was accepted and worn proudly alongside the Iron Crosses they were awarded earlier when Strasbourg was again part of Germany!My father and his 2(possibly 3) brothers in law all fought in WW1, one uncle ex RHA regular never talked about it, though he once let slip something that made me think he had commanded a firing squad near the end of the war, the other uncle was secretary of the regimental OCA, and talked about the war incessently, he also had nightmares every night for 50 years! Dad didn't say much, but had a copy of the regimental history, when I read it and piecing parts he had highlighted along with a letter from his CO that has survived it seems he was on duty as a HQ signaller when it was struck by a shell and most present including the Lt. Col of the regiment were killed or seriously wounded. Not surprising Caux/Katte didn't want to remember the war.
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G'day Roger,
yes, the Katte/Caux story is unusual, the book is a good read and really just tells a sad story about a young fellow with a pretty wild imagination and some bad decisions at a young age.
Interesting the aspects of your family and their WW1 involvement, here we are still spending our time nearly 100 years after trying to unravel the circumstances. All wars are terrible, WW1 was just unbelievably terrible.
I'm still working on the lists, sorry for the delay
Ian
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No problem Ian, I shall not get much done before thursday now, have to take grand daughter on a steam train tomorrow!!
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Dear Ian and Roger,
Managed another quick visit to Kew today - not much to report.
The handwritten Harrison Albert Edward reference [210475] was indeed part of WO 338 and referred to a file that definitely no longer exists. There is a gap from 210474 - 210480 inclusive. The introduction to the Long Numbers file states that some records were weeded in the 1930s as they contained little or nothing which was "of administrative value." I don't think that this is suggestive of anything sinister. One of my great uncles has an officer long number reference with no surviving file. He served in the RFA and part of his service papers survived - he was a gunner, but he was sent on a number of courses which may have been the prelude to a posting for officer training. There was certainly a rumour in the family that he had been an officer at some point. I suspect that he may well have begun the course - hence the file - but the end of the war intervened and that was that. Come the 1930s' weeding exercise and his file gets trashed as being of no "administrative value."
If the above reference was indeed for "our" AEH - then I think that's as far as we shall get. It may well be that AEH's career in the British Army was a very short one. Perhaps the authorities were not immediately aware of his status as a dismissed officer from the AIF - once that became known his British Army career was quickly terminated, leaving a very thin file which was subsequently weeded. That might also explain why he is not showing up in the Army Lists -he wasn't around long enough to make an impression.
I did also look at the Army Lists for July 1920, January and July 1921 - the only A E Harrison was our old friend Alfred Ernest from the 4th Battalion, Norfolk Regiment.
I managed to look at 6 further files from WO 374 - temporary officers. All of them had initial letter "A" in their names - numbers 31336 - 31341 - none of them could have been AEH; all had plenty of documentation from various sources which made it abundantly clear that they were not him. There is one more file with an initial "A" in WO 374 and 6 more that are just "E" - I shall try and look at them next time.
The resident expert on the Great War was not on the desk, but the very helpful person who was did phone him for me. I got the impression that he did not recognise the phrase "Form of Commission" - his answer suggested that he thought it might have something to do with the posting in the London Gazette. He was - as far as I can tell - fairly confident that we had got just about as far as we were going to get and that the reason we are not finding anything is because there is nothing to find. He did say that the Commission Books for the First World War - giving details of officers who were commissioned - are missing and have been missing as far as anyone can remember. That's all of them - not just the volume that might have had something on AEH.
Fast running out of ideas at this end!
jds1949
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A quick question regarding British Death Certificates:
Do the certificates carry the date of birth of the deceased on them?
Does the Ancestry BDM resource, provide date of birth searches?
Thanks
Ian
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Britain has an Air Force, Army and Navy but the main three BMD certificate issuers since 1922 have always been separate that is England/Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland. Only England/Wales gives birth dates on death certificates and this started on 1st April 1969.
I suppose you could Google a birth date however most indexes run by the year but some like Ancestry when seeking English/Welsh Certificates do break them down to quarter/year - likewise Free BMD.
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Just a thought on the WW1 Commission Books. I wonder if a set survive at either the National Army Musueum, or the Imperial War Museum? I have a reader's ticket for the NAM and will check this out next time I go.
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G'day JDS1949,
thanks for having a look at the long number issues and the AEH long number fellow. I knew he wasn't our man as his DOB was 1888, this was just too far away from our fellow and I think I know who he is, more checking required. It would be interesting if this WO338 listing is drawn from another source that is in date order (ie) the numbers were created when an Officer was Commissioned, this could be an interesting solution to one of our problems. How were the NCO's and others Soldiers numbers created?
Ok on the 1920-21 army lists and no sign of our man only Alfred Ernest who keeps popping up everywhere
Ok, on WO374 numbers 31336 - 31341 records, I'll cross these off the list of possibles
The Officers Commission books missing in action is bad news, I understand your sentiments regarding running out of ideas, and I can assure you I often feel the same way.
I am now absolutely sure that the term used in the correspondance to Nora (Form of Commission) is infact a Commission Form, why it isn't in his records, or known to the family is unknown..........................?
Cheers
Ian
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G'day Barry,
Thanks for the info, up until now I had no idea that the British Military issued their own death certificates, are these held in the same place as the Civilian BDM's?
I was hoping that if birth dates were on the death certificates then I might be able to distinguish between several men of interest's death certificates. (I don't have their actual certificates yet, only the indexes)
Thanks
Ian
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G'day Roger,
Ok on the Imperial War Museum? and the NAM, I guess it wouldn't hurt to try
I recently had the need to see a British marriage certificate to compare a signature. After buying the certificate, I subsequenly realised that the certificate wasn't actually signed by the husband and wife but rather the Registrar had written the entire certificate.
When I made contact with the British archives (I can't actually remember the Office's name) they said that is all they had. Everything else had been destroyed.
Two weeks of further research revealed that the original registry book did in fact exist in the in the basement.
of local Civic Buildings, in this case Southend on Sea.
This took about 10 letters to arive at this destination. A very nice lady photocopied the actual book entry and there was the signatures that I required.
Everybody involved learn't something from this issue, The experts can be wrong.....!
Cheers
Ian
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Roger,
Sorry, this is a bit off topic!
regarding the steam train ride, Im looking forward to some grandchildren, so I can take them on a similar ride. Its a hot topic with me today as last night I watched Top Gear and the boys were racing a steam train against my second most favourite car a Jaguar XK120, I have an Austin Healey and I was pondering how I could race a steam train with my Healey with the grandchild in either the train or the Healey
I'm trapped in a time-warp, old cars, WW1, FH and steam trains, Oh, and painting the house....!
Ian
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Dear Ian,
just a quick query - how do you know the birth year of the AEH on the WO338 document? On my copy there is no birth year given - not for him or any of the others on the same page.
jds1949
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Hi
what an interesting and intriguing problem. This is probably way off centre but are you aware of the Albert George Harrison in the migration records to Tasmania in September 1923?
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/default.aspx?detail=1&type=I&id=SWD4/1/366
Unfortunatley you will need to request copies for a fee to see what it contains unless of course you can get to the Hobart Archives.
Nothing to say it is him but the dates corelate. Perhaps he did return but as as an English migrant to another state?
Would be interesting to knw what his birth date was.
regards
RObyn
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Hi Jds1949.
on the far right hand column his DOB is identified as are some others
Ian
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Hi Robyn,
thanks for the tip, I haven't discounted the possibility that he returned to Australia or Tassie under his own name or another and is one of the alternate trails that I will follow after i've exhausted all the Military options if it comes to that
I have done some initial research on similar A Harrison's who ended up in Western Austraila which was a absolute backwater in the 20 and 30's so was the Northeren Territory and probably also Queensland in that order. You could be anybody and never be questioned, I betting even the Coppers were hiding their true identity in the NT and the WA coast.
I have a J A Harrison who applied for repatriation to Australia in (c) 1925 his request was denied by the Australian Government under unusual circumstances, there is 3 documents that I have aquired from the Aus national Archives and they don't shine any light on the circumstances, one reason is the bad quality of the copies it's quite hard to descipher. This matter has got my attention, why have a special issue in the National Archives for just an ordinary bloke, he must have been an ex-serviceman to request repatriation
I have previously tracked two other Albert Harrison's of similar ages from London to Australia and then the trail goes cold and importantly I haven't been able to align any death certificates with these men (or have I)? I've certainly done all AEHarrison's in Australia, maybe I haven't done the A's yet and certainly haven't done the AE and A's in Tassie. I should say at this point that Tassie in the 20 and 30's would also have been an ideal pleace to disappear.
Robyn, I will certainly add this fellow to the list of possibles
Thanks very much
Ian
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Ian, The train ride was unfortunately diesel not steam, that is weekend and bank holidays only, so we'll be back. To get a real train race you need an open stretch of road by the side of a preserved railway that runs steam, you will know better than I where to go in Australia.A bit limited and cautious at present with the computers as I am having strange problems which seem to be caused by Virgin Security suite. The English migrant to Tasmania does look a possibility, certainly needs to be eliminated. I believe that archival problems largely originate from the fact that many items were deposited pre computer era, and as a result they have not yet been properly catalogued; however I will take a look at the NAM next time I go, well done with Southend.
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Hi Again Robyn,
when I follow the link it comes up with an Albert Edward Harrison, I'm pretty happy with this fellow, but where is Albert George hiding?
As I said, AE Harrison is quite Ok with me!! am I not doing this correctly? and is this AEHarrison just the beginning of a list of A * Harrison's?
Ian
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Will have a trawl looking for albert George later when I have time as I have to be out all day today.
It might also do to remember that the dpression hit in the 1930's and many men particularly the unfortunate returned servicemen who had found it difficult to adjust to life after their experiences often hit the road looking for work or subsistence hadouts right across Australia.
Many will have died un remarked and often even unidentified or knpown purely by a nickname. I am not sure of wht things were like in England at that time but I am sure many were living rough and again may have perished without their true identities being known.
You are right is saying how easy it was to just vanish in the more undeveloped parts of Australia even more so if you were a swaggie!!!!
regards
Robyn
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G'day Robyn,
I agree with all your comments and sentiments regarding the 30's and the Ex Servicemen who were basically castaways in their own country, many who just took to the roads into the bush.
The Government tried to employ as many as they could on big projects such as the Great Ocean Road (which I live on) lots of the blokes were just as happy to continue working in camps with their mates. Normal society could not possibly understand the horrors they had endured and expected these men to just reintegrate back into society.
Yes, so lots just disappeared.
Swaggie!! you must be an Aussie!!
Ian
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I've made a mistake:
I mentioned a J A Harrison who was rejected in a special application to be repatriated back to Australia, in fact upon rechecking the details last night after my message to Robyn, his name was Albert J Harrison. I do have a JAE Harrison who emerged in the latter stages of WW1 without any known military history, and he's another person of interest due for exposure in the near future.
However, I should at this point elaborate on AJ Harrison in more detail, given that his circumstances have emerged prematurley and require clarification.
As I have said, his documents are a bit blurry so quite difficult to read, I haven't copied them, as the next generation will be worse, so I will transcribe what I can.
“27/06/1920
To: The Comptroller The Department of Repatriation Market St Melbourne
The attached papers regarding the repatriation from England of an Australian named Albert J Harrison are forwarded for your information and for favor of advice as to whether your department is prepared to grant an indulgence passage to him
Kindly treat this matter as urgent and return the attached papers with your reply
Secretary
Home and Territories Department”
"The Response"
“24 June 1920
The Secretary Home and Territories Department, Melbourne
RE: Albert J Harrison (Passage from England)
I desire to acknowledge receipt of your minute of the 17th June, relative to the abovementioned.
In reply, I would advise that Mr Harrison is not an Australian Soldier within the meaning of the Australian Soldier Repatriation Act 1917-1918 it is not possible for this department to render the assistance desired. Papers are returned herewith
D Gilbert Comptroller”
This is my take on this:
1; A good chance it is my AE Harrison
2: This man has been an Australian Soldier at one time
3: He has sent on his papers to a Civilian Department and they have sent them on to a Military Department, meaning he was originally a soldier
4: The response that "not an Australian Soldier within the meaning of the Australian Soldier Repatriation Act 1917-1918 " again confirming that if he had been dismissed/discharged he has no further call on the Australian Government.
5: It’s the right period perhaps after some more service with the British Army
There is no Australian Officer of this name and only one Private who subsequently returned to Australia in 1919, the Australian records are irrefutable.
The personal documents that were originally involved in this correspondance are not part of these Records and were subsequently returned to thr originator AJH, according to the records and do not exist in the Archives
I will investigate this man as a person of significant interest in a matter of course, naturally, he didn't get passage on this occasion, and if it is my AEH then this suggests that he is keen to be returned to OZ, and therefore the Civilian Shipping lists must be considered with a man using the initials Albert J Harrison, Robyn’s idea to look at post war shipping !
Sorry to keep moving laterally, as I have said, I do believe that to persue any type of future career as a professional soldier or civillian he would need his previous history, education, military record and personal references. To remain outside the confines of his Australian responsibilities, he would perhaps change his name only a little, just a smudge on a document would be enough to make a J out of an E
Ian
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Yes,
An Aussie and lived on the Great Ocean road for many years too.
I think that the way he stuck to his birthdate for significant event would not change.
The day and month would stay constant the year may vary depending on what he was trying to achieve.
Post war shipping is a must but he may also have arrived as crew and jumped ship, my grandmother shipped out i 1924 and we assume just stayed here.
I will do some digging there.
Then there is the weird possibility that he returned as Albert George!!! No one in the family wouwld have said anything!!!
regards
Robyn
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from the NAA site list of 606 individual Harrisons 1921-1930
HARRISON, A Col MOLDAVIA
Port of embarkation London
Port of disembarkation Fremantle
Date of arrival 14 Apr 1925
Barcode no 12260782
HARRISON, Lt Col ORMONDE
Port of embarkation Toulon
Port of disembarkation Sydney
Date of arrival 26 Jan 1922
Barcode no 30151346
HARRISON, A E Mr BARRABOOL
Port of embarkation London
Port of disembarkation Melbourne
Date of arrival 30 Jan 1925
Barcode no 1223415
HARRISON, A J Mr Moreton Bay
Port of embarkation London
Port of disembarkation Melbourne
Date of arrival 18 Nov 1926
Barcode no 11552986
HARRISON, A J Mr OSTERLEY
Port of embarkation Toulon
Port of disembarkation Auckland
Date of arrival 08 Jan 1924
Barcode no 1213672
(4 Albert Harrisons this is one)
HARRISON, Albert Mr Benalla
Port of embarkation London
Port of disembarkation Fremantle
Date of arrival 15 Mar 1927
Barcode no 11551895
2 George Harrisons and only 1 Edward
and an aside there are 3 Albert Edward Harrisons in NZ deaths
this one is close in age:
1936 Harrison Albert Edward 59Y rego#26167
lots to choose from but the first two as army personel are interesting!!
Robyn
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G'day Robyn,
I agree that he would have kept his original day and month in his birth-date, I'm not sure why he would want to continue his illusion going on his year of birth after leaving Nora and the Military.
Although I've seen a couple of the chaps in the shipping lists previously, some I haven't seen and they are really tantalizing.
Where to from here, I'm having enough trouble keeping up with the thread Q&A's let alone the background incidentals and impromptu research, I've got some outstanding lists almost completed for JDS1949 and Redroger and I need to peruse the Military research as far as it goes for continuity and to leave no stone unturned. I will follow these clues up as soon as I can. If you have the opportunity to look at these men in more detail that would be fantastic and they certainly do look promising
As for the A G and A J men, I agree they are really good probabilities, let alone the AE Harrison's that have emerged
And again? where to from here? how do we proceed to check these men, the shipping lists have some ages don't they? but from that where do we go and what do we do when we get there? are there additional details other than in the indexes at the Archives, aside from the indexes I've not previously done much with these resources. Except the original immigration lists at the PROV
I did track the fellow who went to Fremantle and then he went to Sydney and then I lost him ………..(bugger)
Thanks V/Much for the clues and help here
Ian
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Will?
I assume Sydney Blamey left a will as it is mentioned in the newspaper notice of 1934. I don't think 1934 is a year covered by the online probate index, but it's difficult to follow what is/isn't.
I think chasing this up, if it does exist, is important. Sydney was THERE, and if anyone knew what happened to Albert it was him. The will may say nothing, or it might have been a confessional for him. Sydney was clearly a very troubled man with a lot of things going on in his head due to the war. He didn't seem to have had much, so why did he feel the need to make a will?
I just think pursuing the military record line is fine, but you don't really know what you are looking for so looking sideways might provide the answer and the will is something tangible.
Carole
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Hi Carole,
I agree with your call for Syd's will, his grandson Brian has agreed to undertake the search for the Will and the Coroners Inquest
I have just emailed him as I promised last week, I'll wait for his reply and alert you of the outcome when he responds, which I expect will be in the next couple of days, Brian actually lives in the city where these documents will be kept so he is an obvious choice to undertake this process
If he has been unsuccessful or unable to make any progress, I will have a go myself.
I agree that it is a tangible piece of research and I haven't discarded this important element in the overall process, in the end it could be the most intangible or conversely the most obvious piece of information that’s leads us to the answer we require
I'll be back to you ASAP
Ian
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At least I believe that any ship he did enlist on as crew would almost certainly be British in that era, so merchant navy records would be a good place to start.
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G'day jds1949,
were you able to confirm the DOB's on the WO338 pages, only some men had them and on the page I mounted here, Albert Edward Harrison had his on the right hand column. I was thinking that maybe your viewer didn't get the RH column in the picture or I could scan another version
Cheers
Ian
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and an aside there are 3 Albert Edward Harrisons in NZ deaths
this one is close in age:
1936 Harrison Albert Edward 59Y rego#26167
lots to choose from but the first two as army personel are interesting!!
Robyn
Can discount that NZ death as that Albert Edward married in NZ 1900, he and his wife buried at Fielding
Annie
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Dear Ian,
Yes, I went back and looked at the image that you had posted earlier which, unlike the one I had, had the extreme right hand column with the birth year written in.
My plans for the next couple of weeks are a little fluid at the moment, my wife has some time off work so my time is no longer completely my own - I aim to get to Kew at least once in the next two weeks and I shall report my findings as and when.
jds1949
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Here is the London Gazette list that I've been promising over the last couple of weeks, its a work in progress and I'm still checking the Gazette for more entries
1:/ There are some OCR spelling mistakes, these list entries are lifted directly from the source
2:/ I have removed all but a couple of alternate names, my original listing had many other Christian names that were of interest, this is nearly all AE's or A's
3:/ The list has its first entry from 1914 through to 1924, although we particularly need from 1917 or 1918 the preceding entries are worth having to link the same identities together, (the same man may have several entries as his career changes from Commission to Promotion and then onto ceasing his Commission)
4:/ Some of these entries have been investigated such as Alfred Ernest and Alfred Everson Harrisson
Hope this helps
Ian
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Got that Ian, Hope to get to the NAM later this week.
Roger
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Ian,
Thanks from me too - don't think I'll get to Kew this week - we'll have to see how it goes.
jds1949
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Dear AlbE Hunters,
I spent yesterday researching JAE Harrison who is in my LG list, he has some Christian name initials that are of interest. As I've said previously, adding an initial in the front of your original initials would be an easy way of dealing with an alternate identity.
There would appear to be no Officer records at the NA for a "JAE Harrison", I'm guessing that 1922 is too late for the NA, his records will probably be with the MOD.
1:/ There was a medal card for a Private John Arthur Edward Harrison who left the service 26/11/17 due to ill health and joined in 1915.
2:/ The WO338 index describes a L/t JAE Harrison as John Arthur Edward Harrison matching the 1922 LG entry perfectly
I am convinced that these two references are the one man, so as far as I'm concerned L/t JAE Harrison is who he sais he is and not AE Harrison in disguise. My thoughts are that Private JAE Harrison rejoined the Military following recuperation and with a Commission to be a T2L/t and then a L/t
In the process I also stumbled across a John Stone AKA George Arthur Harrison, and it does beg the question, the business of using aliases must have been a popular past time in the 20's?
I’ve also commenced some initial research on two of the men in Robyn’s list who arrived by ship in the 20’s to Oz and I’m progressing on these as we speak. I’ve discounted the two Military men as I believe their rank is in excess of what AEH would be able to attain with ease, particularly as he had been previously dismissed.
As a rule of thumb (and I could be wrong) A Doctor or a Solicitor would generally enter the service as a Major and could make a L/t Colonel or Colonel . A Business Manager, Engineer, etc could enter as a Captain and possibly make a Major, A School Teacher, or diploma of some sort, might allow you to enter as a L/t. These are men without previous formal military experience. I know there are exceptions to these gereralisations, but it's a rule of thumb that I've used for a while.
Although as I’m writing this, I’m thinking that given he was in the Permanent Army after the War and he possibly did the "hard yards" there could be promotions? but it's a long way from a T2L/t to be a Colonel....!
One down, hundreds to go!
Cheers
Ian
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Dr Noel Chavasse, VC and Bar, (awarded VC twice) only made Captain.
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G'day Barry,
looks like there might be a difference between Australian and British Officer Entry Criteria. Our most famous and first WW1 VC winner Albert Jacka was promted from Private to Captain, and was originally an Electrician prior to the War. Importantly he wasn't alone in rising from a private to a senior Officer
Apparantly He should have been awarded another VC and promoted again but the war ended too early for him, his citations just go on and on.....!
I have lifted some info about him and posted it here as an example
he received the Victoria Cross, the first to be awarded to the A.I.F. in WW1.
Instantly Jacka became a national hero. He received the £5,00 and gold watch that the prominent Melbourne business and sporting identity John Wren had promised to the first VC winner. His image was used on recruiting posters and magazine covers.
On 28 August 1915 he was promoted corporal, then rose quickly, becoming a company sergeant major in mid-November, a few weeks before Anzac was evacuated. Back in Egypt he passed through officer training school with high marks and on 29 April 1916 was commissioned second lieutenant.
The 14th Battalion was shipped to France early in June. Jacka's platoon moved into the line near Pozieres on the night of 6-7 August and, as dawn broke, German troops overran a part of the line. Jacka had just completed a reconnaissance and had gone to his dug-out when two Germans appeared at its entrance and rolled a bomb down the doorway, killing two men. Jacka charged up the dug-out steps, firing as he moved, and came upon a large number of the enemy rounding up some 40 Australians as prisoners.
He rallied his platoon and charged at the enemy, some of whom immediately threw down their rifles. Furious hand-to-hand fighting erupted as the prisoners turned on their captors. Fifty Germans were captured and the line was retaken. Jacka was awarded a Military Cross for his gallantry.
C.E. W. Bean described the counter-attack 'as the most dramatic and effective act of individual audacity in the history of the A.I.F.' The entire platoon was wounded, Jacka seriously in the neck and shoulder; he was sent to a London hospital. On 8 September London newspapers carried reports of his death but Bert Jacka was far from done for. He had been promoted lieutenant on 18 August, rejoined his unit in November and was promoted captain on 15 March 1917 and appointed the 14th Battalion's intelligence officer.
Early in 1917 the Germans had retired to the Hindenburg Line and on 8 April Jacka led a night reconnaissance party into no man's land near Bullecourt to inspect enemy defences before an allied attack against the new German line. He penetrated the wire at two places, reported back, then went out again to supervise the laying of tapes to guide the infantry. The work was virtually finished when two Germans loomed up. Realizing that they would see the tapes, Jacka knew that they must be captured. He pulled his pistol; it misfired, so he rushed on and captured them by hand. Jacka's quick thinking had saved the Anzac units from discovery and probable disastrous bombardment; for this action he was awarded a Bar to his Military Cross.
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From memory, and I am open to correction, Major General Farrar-Hockley is the only man ever to have enlisted in the British Army, and gone right up to the top of the tree.
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I've spent the day checking British Medal Index Cards and this experience including some outside help in understanding the vagaries of the differences and similarities, particularly the existence of AIF cards has brought me to the following conclusions:
I had originally thought there were 250 AIF cards, there are actually 2188 Australian cards. Canada 4439, New Zealand 830, South Africa 134
The cards are produced for the following reasons: (and probably more)
The medal Office received a request for, or correspondence regarding the issue of medals
The card holder may have been born in the UK and wished to remain in the UK after the war and receive his medals from the UK
The holder transferred to the British Military, (this was identified on the card)
A delay of some sort in the Australian returning to Australia
The medals were issued to the card holder in the UK
The issue of a card to an Australian in British system is not necessarily evidence that he has joined the British Military, but certainly is related to him residing in the UK or staying longer in the UK. There are many other cards describing AIF men transferring to the British Military. AEH does not have one of these cards
As we know, there is no evidence that AEH made any attempt to communicate with the British Medal Authority regarding acquisition of Medals as there is nothing on his card regarding communication. It is possible that the card was created so that if he did apply there was information in the UK to reject his request. Perhaps the card was created in 1918 when he was Discharged in the UK.
I would therefore expect that even if AEH had joined the British Permanent Army after 1918 that a British MIC should still exist in his name AEH, and there isn't one, unfortunately adding more weight to the possibility that he has changed his name in some way.
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Just a quick thought - if AEH joined the British Army after November 11th 1918 would he have a medal card at all? Why create a medal card for a man who could not possibly be eligible for a war medal because he joined after the war had ended?
The medal card that we have for AEH relates to his service with the AIF and the fact of his court-martial is acknowledged by the reference to the Suspense List - presumably to ensure that he could not get hold of his Australian medal entitlement [denied after his court-martial] by application to the British authorities.
The letter referring to AEH's enlistment in the British Army is dated October 1919, almost a full year after the end of the war. We have nothing that I am aware of to suggest that his temporary commission pre-dated the end of the war. We have been looking earlier because it would be foolish not to try all avenues and possibilities - but the likelihood is that any stint in the British regular forces came after the end of the war. He was not [technically] finally discharged from the AIF until 28th August 1918 - only two and a half months before the war ended.
jds1949
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With the slight caveat concerning the operations in Russia which lasted into 1919, I concur with jds. The NAM visit tomorrow regarding the Commission Books, will keep you posted on what, (if anything) I find out.
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Dear, jds1949 & Redroger,
It's really interesting how this mystery is resolving and how much your thoughts and insights are guiding the directions that we are taking.
The medal card outcome has spawned some new ideas and possibly taken us to another position. JDS, as usual you’ve summarised our present position perfectly by listing why we are in this position and how we got here.
Redroger, you have seen through the only loophole of our present position and created an alternate and possible new position.
This new position could be a milestone, I'm trying not to get ahead of myself, but the revelation of the North Russian campaign has my attention
Chronology - North Russian Expeditionary Force: (a very abbreviated version)
24 May 1918 Major General Poole is in Murmansk to organise the North Russia expeditionary Force (NREF)
3rd July, 1918 Allied Supreme Council approves reinforcements for MREF of 1200 British Troops and a French Colonial Battalion
26 July 1918 French troops join British at Murmansk
24 May 1918 British War Cabinet decides to send 560-man military mission to Archangel to train ‘Whites’ and 600 troops to Murmansk. Notes large scale intervention inevitable.24 May 1918 Major General Poole in Murmansk to organise North Russia Expeditionary Force (NREF)
4 June 1918 150 Royal Marines. landed at Pechenga
7 May 1918 Further 250 Royal Marines landed at Kem
23 June 1918 ‘Syren’ and ‘Elope’ –600 men commanded by Major General Maynard join NREF at Murmansk. Maynard and 30 men proceed south by railway control to Soroka sending back 3 Red troop trains.
3 July 1918 Allied Supreme War Council approves reinforcements for NREF of 1200 British troops and a French colonial battalion.
26 July 1918 French troops join British at Murmansk.
27 August 1918. Russia promises Germans to fight Allies in North Russia freeing German troops to move elsewhere.
28 August 1918 AEH is Discharged in England, all men wising to join the NREF force from any service must be discharged prior to joining2 September 1918 Italian battalion landed at Murmansk to join NREF.
4 September 1918 500 US troops landed at Archangel commanded by Colonel Stewart 339th Regiment.
18 Sept 1918 Karelians under British command repulse German led force and drive it back into Finland.
1 October 1918 Major General Ironside lands at Archangel as new Allied C-in-C.
27 October 1918 RScots surprise attack at Topsa fails.
Armistice signed on Western Front
26 November 1918 Three British battalions landed at Murmansk.
25 December 1918 British officer murdered near Murmansk, murderer executed 5 Feb 1919.
30 Dec. 1918 Captain R.C Dyer DCM, MM and Bar 8th Btn Manitoba Regt Canadian Infantry. Died of influenza. Captain Dyer and Captain Burke were ordered by General Ironside to form and train two battalions of Russians for wharf labous then as combat soldiers.
16 February 1919 Lloyd George tells Churchill Whites not Allies must oust Reds in two telegrams from Paris. Churchill continues to agitate for full British intervention to remove Reds.
1 March 1919 Allies retreat 1 mile at Vistavka 140 miles SE of Archangel.
4 March 1919 British Cabinet decide to evacuate NREF as soon as possible.
17 March 1919 Reds overwhelm French garrison at Bolshe-Ozerki and repel British counter-attack.
19 April 1919 400 British troops land at Murmansk
15 May 1919 Battalion of British 60th Battalion Royal Rifle Regt. storm and take village renamed
27 May 1919 British 238th Relief Brigade (NRRF) landed at Archangel reaches front 6 June
7 July Slavo-British-Legion mutinies and kills several British officers including Lieut C.F.R. Bland MC 3rd Btn Royal Berkshire Regt., Lieut. G.N.Gosling M.C. 1st Btn Gloucester Regt., Capt.D.B.Barr M.C. East Lancs Regt. Injured 7 July died of wounds 13 July. Captain Patrick Burke was reported killed but no record of death listed on CGRC database.
20-22 July 1919 4000 Whites mutiny in Murmansk, 2nd Battalion Hampshire Regt. sent to put down mutiny. Captain Alan Brown 49th Btn AIF Infantry murdered by mutineers.
30 July 1919 Major General Rawlinson appointed to direct North Russia evacuation.
1 September 1919 N.Russia 16,000 British, 1,400 French and Serb, & 26,000 ‘White’ troops in area.
9 September 1919 British begin withdrawal from Archangel covered by rearguard actions.
27 September 1919 Last British troops leave Archangel.
1 October 1919 British commence evacuation from Murmansk.
10 October 1919 Last Allied troops, 5000 British and 1400 French and Serb troops leave Murmansk HMS Glory last RN ship to leave N. Russia
20 October 1919, A Commission form sent to Nora Harrison in Australia informing her that AEH had joined the British Regular Forces as a T2L/t, however, this intra-army correspondence could have been reporting a Commission status that may have occurred some months earlier.21 February 1920 Red Army occupies Archangel.
13 March 1920 Red Army occupies Murmansk
An Australian was present in the above force:- (excerpt from a web source)
War Diary includes ‘Narrative 2012 Battalion. Operations
Officers named: Maj RStG Mayne, Lt Harrison, U CD Armstrong, Lt EU Fricker, Lt Powell, LI
Morrison. Capt Webb, Li Harvey. Capt RV Bayliss MC & Bar. Maj Tippetts and Capt Panin
What do you think???
Ian
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Dear Ian,
My grandfather, who served in the RFA, was part of the Elope Force - so I know a little of the background of this operation. When I was working on his history I did consult some files at the National Archives, so I know that there is a fair bit of documentation on both forces to be consulted. It is certainly something that should be looked at. As I have posted previously, I'm not sure when I'll be next at Kew, but it should be at some point in the next ten days. I shall see what I can find.
jds1949
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Ian, Hope this comes to something, thinking on it has a lot of the ingredients of a "punishment unit" that I mentioned in an earlier post, and from what you have posted above, all the dates and known facts seem to fit. Hopefully we may have found him. Ironically when you made your last post I was at the National Army Museum, unfortunately they don't have a set of the WW1 Commission Books. That leaves the Imperial War Museum Tel No. (for JDS) 02074165320 or 5321. Another possibil;ity has occurred, would it be a book within the meaning of those that the British Library is legally required to keep a copy? Like JDS I don't know when I shall be in London again, but it is now most unlikely before September. Roger
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Dear Redroger and jds1949,
regarding your grandfather's service in the Elope forces, I'd be interested to hear of his exploits as it appears that this little war was quite eventful albeit short lived. It appears to have every possible intrigue, murders, mutiny, exacutions, traitors, spies, defections, politics and really difficult old style fighting with horses and bayonets etc.
I was interested to see that they were paid an amazing amount of money, the usual 25s per week was dropped in favor for 15s per day or something like that as this was very dangerous work and very, very, well paid, perhaps not so much a “punishment unit” LOL
I have ordered a book written in Australia on the North Russia subject and it apparently has all the ex AIF soldiers names in the back of the book, so, if AEH didn't change his name and did go into this force he should be there, this also assumes that he was considered an ex AIF Soldier....!
I've been trawling the MIC's trying to ascertain the origins of soldiers that were in these forces, I’ve been using search words such as Russia, Elope, 45th and 46th Btn Royal Fus, NREF and numerous others and yes there are some in the records, but not as many as I would like, there is more to do on this aspect. Most of the men who were in the NREF, ELOPE etc that have MIC’s appear to be British. Pointing at this stage to the possibility of another medal roll repository for these men...?
Ok, on the documentation at the TNA and your previous research for your G’dad and the possibility of having a look when you go next, that would be great, thanks. Are there any on-line resources dealing specifically with this North Russian affair...?
The Russia affair certainly does have some of the ingredients particularly some of the dates look appealing not to mention the big money and the fact that Albert was not just an infantry Officer but an experienced Cavalry Officer.
Roger, Ok, on the TNA and September, and the hunt for the Commission Books, many thanks for your work to date, its really appreciated
Ian
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Hope this works out Ian, While I was waiting at the NAM for them to establish whether they had the WW1 commission books, I was drawn to another possible source, the Enlistment and Discharge Books for the Buffs and the Middlesex Regiments which they hold. I explained to the clerk what I was looking for, he was most helpful, and made a thorough search of these books. Afraid the result was Nil, posting this so that no one else now searches these publications.The level of pay given to the volunteers @15/- per day was 15 times that my father got as a private when he volunteered in 1915, but not surprising they had to pay these high wages to get a force together to go there. Further thoughts on where to look in the future, there were several other immediate post war military interventions, I think John and I looked at the Army of Occupation in Germany, but there were other places where the British Army went immediately post war, Mesopotamia for one, the League of Nations Mandate in Palestine, and I believe British troops went to the former German colonies in Africa, i.e. Cameroon, Tanganyika, and South West Africa, though that may have been South African Forces.
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Roger,
thanks for thinking of the Enlistment and Discharge Books for the Buffs and the Middlesex Regiments, it's lucky that you are within reach of these resources unfortunately for me to do any paper research in Australia I have to go to Camberra and Sydney, which is 1000Km away
WW1 commission books, I'm surprised that there isn't some knowledge of these books their existance or not and possible location, should we post this issue on a military forum?
I had also thought of the Army of Occupation in Germany as there was an AEH that was there, how did you go?, did you find the AEH that was mentioned in the on-line archive search?
Looks like lots more work if AEH isn't part of the Russian force, Mesopotamia, the League of Nations Mandate in Palestine, Africa, Cameroon, Tanganyika, and South West Africa. Looks like I might have something to do in future retirement....LOL
I again mention that I keep comming across men with alternate names, in todays world I guess we think this to be impossible given all the mechanisms in place to stop the possibility. I would really like to understand the reasons why so many men were doing this...!?
Ian
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Ian, I thought we had told you, but John will confirm, the AEH who was in the Army of Occupation in Germany was the guy who was in the North Norfolk Rgt. if my memory serves me.
Regarding the Russian campaign, after thought it seems that since legally Britain was interfering in the internal affairs of another country, had the campaign been officially recognised then Britain would have committed an act of war against Russia, whichever government was the legal one at the time, so there could be no members of the British Forces there, the whole thing had to be unofficial. This gives me a strong feeling that this Harrison is the right one.Think we should ask about the WW1 Commission Books on the military thread, I have tried a few Googles to no avail. A further thought occurs, I wonder whether a group photo survives of the Officers of the Russian Campaign. After all, the numbers involved? would have been no bigger than a regimental photo
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Just to confirm Roger's point - the AEH in the Army of Occupation was the man from the Norfolk Regiment.
According to the National Archives catalogue there is a list of the officers of the Elope and Syren Forces in Piece WO 106/1151 - that is where I will start next week on my next visit.
jds1949
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Will make a post about Commission Books on the military thread.Thanks, Hopefully next week will show whether the man in Russia can be eliminated, or whether he needs further investigation.
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Dear jds1959,
regarding the Army of Occupation fellow, thanks for confirmning him to be the Norfolk AEH man.
The Elope and Syren Forces in Piece WO 106/1151, I'll take a look and see if its an on-line resource and if so, do some preparitory long distance searching, are there any resources on-line or other, on the NREF force that you know off?
I'm waiting patiently for a newly purchased book "ANZACS in Arkhangel" which apparenlty has all the Australian Officers and men listed in the back of the book, I'm hoping this could help my/our understading, I'll let you know the outcome as soon as I receive it, hopefully tomorrow.
Ian
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G'day Roger,
On the posting of a request for information on the Military forums regarding the possibility of surviving Commission Books, thanks for that, it might remove some valuable research time and hard work. Good luck and good hunting..!
Ok, on next week and the Russian trail. I was searching the LG last night specifically looking for Harrison and Russia, and came across a Lt (Hon Captain) Bert E Harrison whilst employed as a Capt 8th/14th June 1918, it was interesting that this person arose with a search including Russia, but there doesn't seem to be any connection to Russia, looks like Flying Core, But I haven't seen this fellow previously and have previously looked at lot of Bert's without success.
Note: Bert is one of the numerous AKA's that I have searched previously and is a preferred name in my alternate name list. Nothing illegal or mysterious in shortening your name from Albert to Bert and serves the dual purpose of enabling the use of your previous Military history and yet muddies the waters for the bounty-hunters on your trail.
Cheers
Ian
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Dear Roger,
I somehow missed your "216 post" ok on your thoughts of the Russian Intervention the unofficial nature of the force. Yes, I agree that the type of service would have appealed to Albert. He shares my Haplo Q DNA and I'm guessing a type "A" and alpha male personality, If I was Albert, I would join on day one, without hesitation.
Type A's are always up for risk, challenge and something new, coupled with big money and the opportunity to disappear for a while with some degree of anonymity, there are some real advantages for AEH to join this force. A photo, now that might cut through some serious research years.........!!
Cheers
Ian
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Just took a look at the NA site regarding the Elope and Syren Forces in Piece WO 106/1151 and it's not on-line and only viewable at Kew, good hunting..!
Ian
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Mulling over the military attributes of Syren and Elope forces against what we know about AEH who apparently joins the "British Regular Forces" as a T2L/t sometime during 1919.
Could the Syren and Elope forces entering Russia be considered British Regular Forces?
Are the preceding two forces all part of the latter NREF force?
and therefore could this force, the NREF be considered the British Regular Forces?
I believe we agree that these volenteer forces were apparently constructed by individuals derived from numerous Dominion and Colonial Armies, who had intentionally discharged in England from their former units, as a prerequsite for joining the new force, seperated from the British Army for Political reasons.
I have checked today some of AEH's Service Records regarding his Discharge in England in 1918 and I have to report that on the document that describes his request to be Discharged it clearly states that he was dismissed from the AIF in 1917. I'm not sure that I had clearly described this document and made the distrinction of Dismissed in 1917 and Discharged in 1918. The complicating issue in my mind has been the exact date match, 12 months apart, his birthday August 28th
Ian
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As I understand it the British Forces which made up the Elope and Syren Forces to Northern Russia were regular Army units and no different in their modus operandi to any other British Expeditionary Force. The majority of men would have had no choice about where they were sent, whether France, Flanders, Italian Front, Palestine, etc. etc. There was also an American contingent alongside the British and there for the same reason - to prevent the Germans exploiting the chaotic situation in Russia following the Revolution and the Peace of Brest-Litovsk. I presume that the Australian presence was there for the same reason.
jds1949
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jds1949,
my understanding regarding the Australians was they were waiting for return to Australia and doing absolutely nothing but waiting for their ships, they were asked if they were interested and told of the risks and the money and many of them jumped at the chance.. They formed the majority of the 45th and 46th Royal Fusiliers.
They absolutely had to be discharged fron the AIF prior to joining
Ian
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Ian,
thanks for that - new to me - I shall bear it in mind when I check the records at Kew, which I hope will be later this week,
jds1949
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Not had my DNA done yet, but suspect I may have the same haplotype! I've always been keen on sticking my neck out, just for the hell of it!Though Albert could have well shortened his name to Bert, there is another common possibility, I had an uncle Bert who was in the RHA as a regular in WW1, it took me a long while to figure out that his name was a shortened version of Herbert, and these are before we get into more exotic waters with Egbert etc.
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jds1949,
I've done some more reading on the Aussies and the original forces in N/Russia and know a bit more. The Australians reached Russia in June 1919 assisting the British in evacuating and were there until September. They were not there with the other forces Syrne and Elope. The Australian force was called the British North Russian Relief Force NRRF and these men joined this force as individuals and volunteers and got the big money. There were 200-300 of them. Apart from the 45th and 46 Royal Fusiliers they also were in the 201st Batt Machine Gun Corps
They were commanded by Brig Gen LW de V Sadleir-Jackson. I'm thinking that because of the dates that if AEH did join the Russian War, he would have joined the original British Syren or Elope units, but I'm not dismissing the NRRF Australian unit either
Hope this helps
Ian
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Dear Roger,
Ok on the DNA and your thoughts on a similar Haplogroup Q, My British Harrison ancestors came from the Craven area of West Yorkshire for as far back as the records can go. The Q DNA is unusual for Britian (very unusual) it comes from Scandinavian origins, given that Yorkshire was inhabited by Scandinavian Vikings, it's more than likely that these folk are responsible for the origins of my family.
The Bert issue is interesting and I hadn't thought about the Herbert's and Egbert's etc. Too many options and too many possibilities....!
I was searching the Australian Archives last night, I haven't done this for a year or so. In that time there has been some changes to the way they present their information and it appears that some more data has emerged. I have located another DVA file for an AE Harrison located in Western Australia, this document has never been seen or identified previously. I have historically trawled these records for years without success. We certainly know that Nora had significant dealings with the DVA, Australian Government and Military, so there should be more, I'm hoping this might be the missing files
I will order this to be digitised today and see where it takes us.
Ian
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I've been checking the Australian archives today, amongst other searches, I spent some time looking at the history of a Soldier TJ Robson who was cut loose from the AIF in England, the same way as AEH and at about the same time.
The Australian Government lost him in England and subsequently discharged him in England as a consequence of being illegally absent. He had been dismissed from the AIF prior to this. He had also been at Perham Down, and been AWL many times.
He subsequently got back to Australia by his own means, but didn't return to his wife. He was apprehended and then escaped custody again. Lost somewhere in Australia
Importantly again, there is a distinction between Dismissed and Discharged, I am now aware that there were two important registers located at AIF headquarters London, an "Illegal Absentee List" and a "Discharge Register." The trick will be to establish their existence and location now.
Regarding the AEH DVA Pension file mentioned previously and located at the Australian National Archives today. This file is not open and will take some time to be released, previous experience tells me a couple of months before an outcome of any sort. I ordered it to be digitised today
Ian
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I mentioned that I had located some new records at the Australian National Archives, specifically a Western Australian DVA file referring to an AE Harrison.
I have ordered this record and whilst waiting I thought that I should check all my Civilian BDM's and Military personnel regarding the existence of an AE Harrison in Western Australia.
Western Australia in the 1920's was a great place to disappear if you wanted to live a life of anonymity, I had previously looked at this state in some depth for this reason . These recent WA military files located at the NAA weren’t available when I did this original research.
A quick check of my original work against this new DVA file revealed two WW1 Soldiers from WA -
- 1458 Spr Albert Edward Harrison 51st Batt 21 years of age a Groom, from Perth KIA 30/03/1918
- 2999 Pte, Alfred Ernest Harrison 10th Light-Horse, WA Prospector, 37 years of age RTA 29/04/1919
Given that Albert Edward was killed in 1918, there is a good chance that the file that I have ordered belongs to Alfred Ernest Harrison the Prospector from WA
A good chance of another dead end , albeit it looked pretty good initially
Ian
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Waiting with anticipation for JDS findings at Kew regarding Russia. I would not be surprised either if AEH found his way back to Australia, and is the guy who fought the Japenese in the early 1940s, with or without a trip to Russia in between.
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Hi Roger,
I'm also interested to hear of Js's findings at the NA, my book on the same subject hasn't arrived as yet, the suppliers website gobbled up my order, a few more days to go now.
Who is the fellow who fought the Japanese in 1940's? Have you turned up something new? AEH would be (c) 60 years of age.....? he had plenty of nephew's and sons fighting in WW2.
I'm going over and over UK medal cards again, using searches such as 201 machine gun, Russia, birth dates, 45th and 46th Fusiliers and many more alternate names, unfortunately without any tangible result at this stage.
I'll make a formal application to the MOD in the next couple of days, I've been building the material necessary for the application, including identification etc
I established that there was a "British Mission To Russia Roll" which contained all the Officers and Soldiers names who fought in Russia. I have tried to Google it and also find it at the NA without result at this stage.
I've been pondering what would be required for a non British Citizen to establish credentials necessary to live and work in Britain. I can remember that even as late the 1980's in Australia you could open a bank account under any name, without ID and work without formal employee income reporting very easily.
I'd be very interested to establish what would be required to establish a life in the UK in the 1920 -30's such as Naturalization, Taxation, Voting rights, Drivers License, and the possibility of Deedpol use and any other ideas.
Cheers
Ian
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Dear Ian and Roger,
Disappointing news I'm afraid. From WO 106/1151 The List of British Army Officers of both Syren and Elope Forces:
"Hospital
Medical officer - Captain H Harrison RAMC"
He was the only Harrison listed - so unless our man managed a medical degree in 1917-18 he's not him.
Prompted by Ian - I remembered that I have a book on the Russian Campaign "Churchill's Crusade" by Clifford Kinvig. In the index it lists a Captain Harrison - the reference is not to the above man:
"Captain Harrison, a Canadian commanding the 24th Armenian battalion, found that his unit ceased to exist on occasions through the predisposition of his men to scamper off at the first appearance of the enemy."
So, two Captain Harrisons but neither seem to be our AEH.
I'm afraid that I was very pushed for time today and so was not able to do any more, quite apart from anything else as it's the first week of the summer holidays the place was heaving with people! I'm not going to be able to get back to Kew for a couple of weeks - my wife has other plans for me.
Just a few thoughts on your last questions Ian - AEH was, as an Australian, a subject of the British Crown I doubt if he would need to become a naturalised British subject as he effectively already was one. Neither would he need to resort to a deed poll to change his name. Even today changing one's name is perfectly legal and requires no particular legal sanction - as long as the intention is not criminal deception. I should imagine that back in 1919 he could have called himself whatever he wanted, as long as he was not seeking to continue using his Army record. There was no National Insurance scheme then - so he would not have needed a National Insurance number. All he had to do in order to effectively disappear was to go somewhere that he would not be recognised, call himself Joe Bloggs, get a job, a place to live and begin a new life. If that is what he did then we have no chance of finding him.
jds1949
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Ian, The guy I referred was the one mentioned in reply No.23 posted by Keitht many days ago, while I agree that he would have been in his 60s by then and would have found the climate exhausting, I wonder whether he could have returned to Australia and settled in the Northern Territories which I believe have a tropical rainforest climate, not too disimilar to New Guinea, there is of course always the possibility that he did settle in New Guinea itself, and would have become aclimatised by 1941.
Regarding the points you made, and to which John has responded regarding rights of residence, he was as an Australian citizen and in that era was considered a British subject for all purposes. Though there are some entry restrictions now, I believe essentially once you are in you are British. Indeed two former MPs of recent times spring to mind, Brian Gould from New Zealand left Parliament in 1992 to return to New Zealand, and Patricia Hewitt who was Social Services and Health Secretary in the last government and is Australian by birth.
Though it is staggering I don't believe the Russian campaign lead is quite dead yet, but from what John says, the document he quoted from seems very much like the roll of the expeditionary force to Russia. Taking stock, we have exhausted the Army of Occupation, and virtually Russia, that leaves the League of Nations Mandates etc. to be searched.
Personally I think this New Guinea thing is worth a further look.
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Dear Jds,
firstly the apparently disappointing news from the NA regarding the Elope/Syrene records.
My immediate response was similarly disappointing until I considered the bigger picture, why couldn't the Canadian Harrison be AEH? we haven't looked at the NRRF force yet and this force is the one that the Aussies were in. And the book "ANZACS in Archangel" is on the way after a few problems with the suppliers website, I'm hopeful for some additional info on the NRRF.
So, "no news is bad news" just more info to check, I'll do the Harrison of the Canadian Army and see where it takes me and as for the H Harrison and his MD or BS, well I guess it's a long bow to draw.
Ok on the short supply of time, I'm in the same boat and my wife has plans for me also, I'm supposed to be painting the house but it's below 12 deg every day or raining, so I just have to do some computer work every day, interspersed with actual work for the Aus/Gov which pays the bills
Thanks for your info regarding the issues of changing a name in England, I remember a philosophical discussion at a dinner party many years ago regarding the issues of changing ones name to avoid taxes (any tax auditors reading this, I didn't do it!!) we went through all the possabilities and ended by deciding that a look at the telephone book at names such as Smith, Jones. It was interesting that some of the group thought that this was an opportunity to show a bit of flair and choose a name that was interesting or nice to say, perhaps a nice hyphenated name or a slightly altered name such as Hilton-wood or Harbison, surfaced. We had to get back on track, we were wanting to blend in not stand out. After a few hours we all decided that we would use the telephone book or the Voting rolls and choose a common surname name then look for the most occurrences of a christian name. So if there were 250 Ron Smith's then it would be Ron Smith "251" no middle names, just blend into the many other Smith's
The reason I'm concentrating on the Military research is that there is a distinct possibility that AEH did change his name. The Military records are pretty good and often mention AKA's alternate names etc, so there is more chance to find him through this medium. You are however quite right, that if he did change his name, then using the Civilian research we would never find him unless a family member of his English family knew something of his past and it gravitated to the surface somehow. Perhaps, I should advertise on the TV "find my family" or "who do you think you are"
So, once again, many thanks for your time, an MID is due to you for your services in this matter
Cheers
Ian
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Dear Roger,
yes you are possibly right, he may have returned to OZ, If he did, he wasn't living as AEH as I have spent a lot of time doing the OZ research and he doesn't seem to have come back as AEH
Ok, on the No23 post and the PNG bloke, I hadn't forgotten him and did do some initial work on him, here is what I found and certainly puts him out of the question, there are a couple of others also, B883 is the bloke in question, his DOB is 1906
341. HARRISON, Albert Edward, NGX 71; Cpl; 2/25 Infantry Battalion; Enlisted - 12 July 1940; Embarked for M/E - 7 Apr 1941; Returned ex M/E - 28 Feb 1943; Discharged - 29 Jan 1944; Enlisted - RABAUL, NEW BRITAIN, NEW GUINEA; Date of Birth - 31 Aug 1906; BORN - LIVERPOOL, UK; NOK - LITTLE, Ada, Sister.
B883 NGX71 HARRISON ALBERT EDWARD : Service Number - NGX71 : Date of birth - 31 Aug 1906 : Place of birth - LIVERPOOL ENGLAND : Place of enlistment - RABAUL NEW GUINEA : Next of Kin - LITTLE A
Access status:OPEN
Location: Canberra 1939 - 1948 5889458
B884 V53730 HARRISON ARTHUR EDWARD : Service Number - V53730 : Date of birth - 12 Mar 1921 : Place of birth - CAMBERWELL : Place of enlistment - ALBERT PARK : Next of Kin - HARRISON A
Access status:NYE
Location: Canberra 1939 - 1948 6253867
B884 V74202 HARRISON ALBERT EDWARD : Service Number - V74202 : Date of birth - 16 Jun 1916 : Place of birth - PORT AGUSTA SA : Place of enlistment - FOOTSCRAY VIC : Next of Kin - HARRISON ELIZABETH
Access status:NYE
Location: Canberra 1939 - 1948 6281986
As for living up north, well this is good for those that can handle it, Us Harro's that carry this Q DNA from Scandinavia and have lived in Yorkshire for centuries drip all day, My father in PNG during the war was drenched all day, my son in Darwin for two years with the Aus Army dripped all day, me in Queensland dripped all day and not just perspiration, actually dripping continuously. My two sons have just left an hour ago for the snow and that's where we are at home. The colder the better, it must be the Viking stuff. If AEH was in the tropics he'd go troppo. Far north Australia and PNG are impossible to live in unless you have an airconditioner and a lot of beer. (a lot of beer) (a lot of beer)..........ALOB
I agree, there is much more life in this matter yet, I'm up for it if you guys are?
And thanks for the info on the undercover or clandestine life in the UK, its pretty much what I thought was happening, If a POM had turned up in OZ in 1920 he could just disappear over here for ever also, see how computers and data bases have wrecked our lives??
The rot set in when Henry the 8th decided to give men surnames so he could extract more taxes more successfully, then came computer data bases and the rest is history
Ian
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Dear Carole,
just received word from AEH's grandson that he's been unsuccessful looking for the Will and Coroners Inquest, I will go to the local Historical society next week and find the index to the NSW Coroner's Inquests and order the Inquest
Cheers
Ian
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On Thursday last week I made contact with Legacy Australia regarding their capacity to hold archives and records dating back to 1917
Legacy cares for the widows and dependents of deceased servicemen and might have been contacted by Nora regarding her circumstances. They have sent on my request to the branch that was close to where Nora lived in 1917 near Katoomba near the Blue Mountains behind Sydney.
Ian
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I'm a bit mystifyed by the lack of a will - although I have to say I have no experience of finding wills in NSW so I've no idea how the system works ;D
Sydney did make a will didn't he - or am I reading ths wrongly? From the Sydney Morning Herald of 27 July 1934:
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a206/hoddworld/SydneyBlameyProbate.jpg)
Do you know who David Popplewell was?
Carole
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Hi Carole,
there is a Will if your attachment is as good as it seems, I will do the Will after the Coroners Inquest, each will require a bit of manovering.
The fact that Brian hasn't turned up with it, isn't an indication that it doesn't exist
I'm not sure who the Poppelwell fellow is and I will see what I can find out about him
Cheers
Ian
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I thought Mr Popplewell might have been family - if he wasn't and he wasn't a solicitor I wonder why he was named as executor?
You know - I shall be SO disappointed if the will eventually does surface and there's nothing of interest in it ;D
Carole
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Another small diversion:
This relates to a fellow who was in the AIF and then joined the NRRF. He is not related in any way to AEH and is identified here as an example of a fellow who did what we believe AEH might have done
Private William Alfred Harmon Wilson originally from OZ a nineteen year old who joined the AIF without his parents consent in 1918 and was part of the very last contingent who left Australia for England and WW1, when he arrived the war was over so he was Discharged in England as AEH did and joined the NRRF heading for Russia
I firstly got his British Service Record and MIC from Ancestry, then obtained his Australian record. I did this to try and understand the dates, the units and the general circumstances of Discharge and re-joining another service etc
Here is the link to the Australian files, Interestingly his AIF service number is also identified on his British MIC. He embarked for Russia 15/06/1919, he left OZ for the UK 19/06/1918 and was discharged from the AIF in England 26/08/1918
http://naa12.naa.gov.au/NameSearch/Interface/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=2016136
If this link doesn't work, or links to the NAA, TNA, Ancestry or Australian War Museum are required to support this little journey please drop me a line and I'll supply all the required links.
It is interesting to see the the mother's need for word of her son and how she can't get answers, as he is now in the British Military, the trail of documents regarding the NRRF, joining the AIF, Demobilisation, Discharge documents (what AEH would need) and the British records of his service
Just click on "view digital copy" when you get to the AWM Record Search page, and the entire Australian record will be available to view
Ian
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Ian, Now I know why I don't like hot weather! There is a point about the missing will which occurs to me. I believe he was in the services, where it is compulsory to make a will. If this is correct, then even though he died after leaving the services, is it possible there is a copy of the will with the military? Just a thought, after all we have plenty to go at still,but all the other p[ostings are in tropical climates, so if he did go on service after the war he would have been pretty swearty in Mesopotamia and the former German colonies.
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Ian, I have just seen a lead on another thread which I think has to be checked for elimination purposes. Apparently there is a separate Army List for the Indian Army, held at the British Library. Even though he, AEH, is reported to have joined the British Army I think this should be checked.Will do so next time I'm in London, probably next month.
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G'day Roger,
lots of laughs regarding the geographical hot spots and perspiration, as we know if we are sent somewhere hot we just put up with it, keep up the liquids and stay in the shade. Most of us Victorian's would love to live up north in our winter and come back down for our summer, (not theirs). The point I'm making is holidaying in these tropical places is fantastic. If you like the cold and don't likecontinious extreme hot temperatures you wouldn't LIVE there, mind you, plenty do make the change and acclimatise quite well. You probably heard about the big fires in OZ last year, there were lots of deaths, that day was 47degC and that was Victoria where I live, the colder and dry State, compared to up north. You could have cooked an egg on the roof of the car.
Regarding the Wills of servicemen, I have only seen one in a soldiers service records, If I am to use the experience of my son who was in the OZ military, his Will was sent to me via registered post and not kept in his records. The construction of the Will and the dispatch was undertaken on Military time and turf, but not held by the Army. I'm guessing that this was the case in WW1 also, there doesn't appear to be a special repository for them in the archives and if there was, we would know about it, I'm sure.
Roger, I do have some details on Indian Army men:
Lt A Harrison, January 1922, research found him to be Alec Harrison who served in the 130 Bulchas from 26th November 1918, a good fit for time , I'll do some more on him, the fact his name is Alec is not enough to discount him, given that I'm happy not to discount a HC Harrison from Canada, anything is possible?
Also, Albert Edward Lloyd Harrison Commissioned October 1920 served with the Great Indian Railway Reg, Promoted to Lt, Jan 1923 and discharged mid year 1927, his Commission is a bit too late I believe.
I did a stage two pass on all Ancestry MIC's for Harrison and Harris yesterday and Saturday, checking everything that was remotely possible, crossed checked about 20 likely candidates with no success.
1: If AEH had joined the British Military as AE or Albert Edward Harrison, he should have a MIC that refers to that joining and details of medals for service.
2: Even if he joined after the end of WW1 he still should have an MIC
3: Even if his records are with the MOD (not at the TNA) he still should have an MIC
4: The British MIC that we have is not for any service in the British Army, it is there because he was Discharged and Dismissed in England and is, for the use of the British Military in the event that he requested medals from them after dismissal from the AIF
5: There are men who were with the NRRF, Elope and Syrene forces that have MIC's in the archives, why hasn't AEH??, I acknowledge that he might not have been there. I am certain that he was in the British Military at that time, so where is his MIC?, they haven't been culled or damaged by WW2 fire and bombing.....?
6: There is the WO 338 index (handwritten book entry) Lt Albert Edward Harrison, the as yet not found long number fellow, this could be my AEH, apparently the records do not exist, he still should have an MIC
More inertia regarding a change of name? I also started to go over the Harrison's in the LG between Jan 1918 and Dec 1919 again, and I intend to concentrate more attention to this line of research using the LG
I spent a fair bit of time doing an Alfred Edward Harris, 2Lt of the MGC, interestingly he joined 6/6/18 and was dead 2/7/18 on his MIC there is apparently no trace of his service or rank, its things like this that make you think of possibilities and if it wasn't for his apparent father's address on the MIC , I would seriously consider him as a good match
"Too Many Secrets.........!"
Cheers
Ian
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Ian, When next I go to London I'll look at the British Library to see what if anything I can find on this Alec Harrison. Can't do both National Archive and British Library on the same day for travel reasons.
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Carole,
My Cousin went to the Aus/State Archives, and unfortunately has had no luck, I enclose here his comments>>>
""It was SOOOO WET AND MISERABLE in Sydney today that I decided to do that little task at the State Archives .
Not much luck unfortunately
All I could find on the Inquest was the Folio No-1153 for 3/8/1934 and the "one
line" entry viz;"Haemorrhage due to wound in the throat.Self inflicted whilst of
unsound mind"
There is no further infomation available.The file has been cleaned out.
Less luck with the Will I could NOT locate a record of granting of Probate for
Sydney Blamey from 1929 to 1970.
What date was the Notice you sent me from the newspaper.???
I note the Notice states"Probate may be granted"The person at the Archives told
me that Probate is not alwayes proceeded with.
Might be the case here if nobody made a claim and I guess he did not have much
money in the Estate.anyway.
Sorry not much help BUT we can probably put this chapter to bed.
Keep up the good work & keep faith in the future.
Brian""
Ian
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Roger,
regarding Lt Alec Harrison, he has a medal card which is unusually sparse, it sais that he is due a GS (general Service medal) South Persia with Clasp, he was attached to the 130/Bulchas. no forwarding details, likely it wasn't received, no starting date or the normal MIC accoutrement's.
I've been quite busy answering PM's and doing research on a couple of other Harrison's and a Millar, and I will detail these later on tonight when I have some more time
I spent an hour on the London Gazette yesterday and for the first time limited my search to July to October 1919 and found an A Harrison, I will check this entry against those I already have and if its a new fellow I'll dig a bit further.
I have received the NRRF book and there are no Harrison's in the list at the rear of the book as I had hoped. I am now reading the book and atleast my understanding of the history is improving. I haven't given up on this line as he might not have used his real name, so more to come on this subject
Regarding MIC, a point that I didn't know previously, (unsubstantiated) if you don't fight overseas you don't have a medal card
I'll be back on tonight and describe the last couple of days research
Cheers
Ian
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Well - I'm disappointed about the will.
I did a search for David Popplewell - it looks as if he was born in NSW in 1892 the son of Edward and Christina Maver (or Marers) other children were Charles E 1881, Peter M 1884, Iram 1886, Jessie M 1889, Christina 1895 and Andrew C 1898. David died in 1957. I thought he might have been in the war - he wasn't. Peter Popplewell was but he was in the 2nd Infantry (he got court martialed as well in 1918 but he was in France) Andrew tried to join up in 1918 but it was found out he was under age.
I did a search for David Popplewell on the newspaper site http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper and for some reason (because it didn't come up as a result when I searched previously for Sydney ??? ) I got this from The Sydney Herald of 21 December 1934.. Even odder in light of no will ...
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a206/hoddworld/SydneyHerald21December1934.jpg)
Carole
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OK Ian, My next trip to London is likely to be in September, when I will go to the British Library, and renew my acquaintence with King's Cross!
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This has been a fascinating thread. I cant help at all but wish you all the best and hope you track this young man down. All power to your elbows. I have learnt a lot just reading this!
Dee
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Dear all, Carole, Dee and Roger,
Roger, Ok on the September visit to London and the British Library, I'll talk to you more about this prior to going. Dee, welcome, I'm glad your are along for the ride and enjoying it, my elbows are OK, but I can't say the same for the brain. Carole, further checking and discussions with Brian reveals that he engaged all the necessary research acumens including the enlistment the the head archivist’s services. I've given him the subsequent date information that you provided (thanks) and he confirms that he covered this date in his research
Sorry I've been off the air for a couple of days, I've been tracking lots of clues. One that I followed that I should mention and had previously mentioned is an NAA reference to a Mrs. AE Millar, who on behalf of her husband William Harrison Millar was requesting transportation to Australia from England in the 1920's. To most, this is a long way from AE Harrison, but this fills all the criteria necessary for me to launch a search
AEH's Mothers name was Miller (near enough to Millar)
AEH's father was William Harrison
His middle name was Harrison and last name Millar
His Wife's Christian name initials were AE the same as AEH (might not have actually been his wife requesting help but some other false identity or gender)
The details of this couple were located and they were found to be who they said they were and not AEH in disguise. One of the strongly held thoughts regarding men who take up alternate names, is that they often use their mother's maiden name. So I have often looked at A and AE Miller's and the obvious permutations
There were some other names that I have tracked and researched in the last couple of days and these also turned up nothing.
I built a list of all the Harrison’s of all ranks that died in WW1 there were 619 Harrison deaths and of these 41 were Officers, none could have been AEH given date of birth and year of death. Most died prior to the end of the war and as we know AEH was Discharged in England after the war. The list does include men who died after the war.
A couple of new issues have arisen. As time goes on and discussions on the AEH subject evolve, memories are triggered and stories emerge that have previously been forgotten or lost. One of the grandchildren has reiterated strongly that his grandmother (Nora) was sure that AEH had created another family in England
The second issue was stimulated by the discussion of the North Russia forces and the mention of the 45th and 46th Royal Fusiliers, this triggered a memory of a previously insignificant Military badge in the possession of AEH's grandson Brian. This badge was originally owned by Syd Harrison AEH's eldest son, and there appears to be no logical reason that he should have this badge, given that he was an Australian. The badge is from the (RWF) Royal Welsh Fusiliers and I have been investigating this unit for the last 24 hours along with reading the ANZACS in Archangel book in an effort to proceed further with this line of research.
I have also found an Albert Edward Harris that has some of the necessary attributes to continue investigation albeit not in the RWF unit and not an Officer but a S/Sergent
I'll have to put the MOD application on the back burner for another month as my assembly of prerequisite application identification and references is in the hands of others who are currently travelling in Europe.
The major issue for me in the next couple of days is to broach issues of the RWF unit and see if I can align a suitable candidate against the unit
Cheers for now
Ian
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Thanks for update Ian.
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The story of the North Russian Forces continues, I'm halfway through the book and there is much more to this matter than I originally thought.
It was a mess like Vietnam and Iraq and as usual the Pollies egos were behind it, in this case Churchill's, he was obsessively against Communism and the Bolsheviks.
There appears to be another force involved apart from the three already mentioned previously.
Much of the records have been destroyed, either by the WW2 London bombings and also soon after the affair, there were some unsavory aspects that didn't warrant publicity, records were destroyed intentionally.
Not much hope in identifying AEH as the personnel records are probably destroyed and I believe that if he had joined, it would have been in Elope or Syrene forces and not the NRRF force. The general rule appeared to be that you would not automatically assume the rank that you originally had. For example, If you had been a Sergeant you might end up being a Corporal for some reason.
There appears to be lots of Aussies that had alternate names, the reasons were numerous, to evade parents who were trying to locate their sons who had joined up illegally, apparently there were thousands (for WW1) that did this by dropping their ages anything up to 3 years, you only had to identify your age not your date of birth. Some having been court-martialled previously, or had poor conduct in their own names, so a new name was necessary. And those dodging their wives and families, all these aspects are identified in the book.
I've had no luck on the Royal Welsh Fusiliers yet but will endeavor to do some more later on in the week
Ian
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Ian sounds like you are looking for a sharp needle in a haystack! I know from what you have said in your previous posts that you will probably have looked into the Royal Welsh Fusiliers websites.... I wonder if there are some millers/harrisons in Wales (if he ended up there). Is it worth contacting the local papers to see if anyone had an Aussie grandfather with a murky history?
Dee
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Ian, I am only too familiar with boys putting their age up to join the war, and it wasn't just Australians. My father's story was as follows, orphaned age 2, brought up by aunt and uncle, left school at 12 to go into farm service. 3 years later volunteered for war service, gave age as 15, told by recruiting sergeant too young to join, but the recruiting unit would return to the area in April 1915, if the war was still going; "Over by Christmas remember!", only don't be 16. The next april now aged 19 Dad joined up "Because he was bored by life on the farm.!All too common a story I'm afraid, patriotism rouses some high emotions as I remember at the start of the Falklands War, and we caused that conflict remember by withdrawing the antarctic survey ship the previous year to save a few £. What are we going to cause when we cut the defence budget by 40% I shudder to think.
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Hi Dee,
Funny you should coin the phrase "a sharp needle in a haystack" I have designed proton magnetometers and metal detection technology in a previous life, it would take me about a minute to find a needle in a haystack....LOL
AE Harrison is proving to be a bit more elusive. I spent 4 years working on my British family history. A co-researcher mentioned that there were some documents at your TNA apparently donated by a well known English historian Harry Speight, The documents related to a Harrison family from the Elslack and Broughton-in-Craven area of West Yorkshire. When I received these documents I realised that the family was mine and this one document covered all the research that I had done over the previous 4 years, almost a waste of time, albeit a great journey and wonderful learning curve.
The reason that I mention this story is really the genesis for this quest to find AEH and all our respective research quests. I believe that we all covet this one very important axiom.
"The Journey"
We know that the answer to our brick-wall is just around the corner, it exists and somebody knows about it, there will be evidence somewhere, and it could be tomorrow that a handwritten letter arrives in the mail, explaining the whole problem and there goes another 4 years.
I have often thought that a quick fix would be to put an Ad on "who do you think you are"? and ask all of the UK do you have a dodgy grandfather? I might get too may replies...LOL
After several years at this and doing the normal ad-hock research jumping from one clue to another, I'm now getting much more analytical and organised. If I could be sure that he kept his real name it would be a lot easier. Yesterday, I spent the whole day on Ancestry looking at NCO's, building more lists and matrixes to compare with other information that I hold. Nothing appears to be set in concrete. Just because a man was a Captain or there is a document that describes him as having a Commission and a T2L/t isn't necessarily the last word. At this point, I can't discount anything, so the economies of scale are huge.
Some may ask, why look at the NCO's? The records show, men loose their rank or are promoted, there are aspects in these records that describe previously unexplained military issues.
Notwithstanding the above, I think it's an excellent idea to pursue an Aussie Grandfather with a murky past in Wales, but I won't do this until I have some sort of confirmation that the recently found RWF badge has some relevance. I have just started to look at the relevant RWF websites and off course, I'm still doing the North Russian thing.
So, thanks Dee, for another idea, if the North Russia thing doesn't pan out then I will get to the Wales thing and see where it takes us
Cheers
Ian
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G'day Roger,
In my family and circle of friends there are numerous examples of age increase to join. (AEH kept his up to continue a previously created age fraud to marry an older woman) The army knew they were too young, but men were scarce in Oz, particularly in the latter stages of WW1
My uncle had a heart attack in WW2 was discharged and rejoined as a private a few weeks later, they worked him out and sacked him again. His military career was his whole life and never got over being discharged, was eventually run over by a car while drunk, still depressed after many years.
Another uncle was discharged medically unfit to join WW1 so he came across from WA to Victoria and joined here without a problem.
For many men the chance to make something of themselves is a seriously important thing. The chance to see the world, take some risks, be part of an important event and not receive a white feather was an important dynamic. King and Country was I'm sure important then.
As a lad, I wanted to Join the Military and undertake a Commission my father wouldn't allow me. I should have done a second tier entry later in life and didn't do that either..?? He didn't mind me being in an Emergency Service. I guess he didn't want me to go to Vietnam and most men who have fought wouldn't want their sons in the same trouble and that's quite understandable.
Cheers
Ian
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All agreed Ian,except putting the age up to marry an older woman. I have the reverse, grandfather was at least 66 on his second marriage, don't know exact age but was baptised 1828. He showed his age as 55, her's was 35, which was correct, she couldn't put her age up though as she was at least 6 months pregnant, so the gap was shown as 20 years when it should have been over 31!
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Dear all,
yesterday, a few hours were spent analysing numerous on-line resources:
I Spent some more time on the London Gazette. I restricted the search (again) to a small period of June to October 1919 where we believe that AEH was Commissioned as a Temp 2nd L/t. I Then used numerous permutations of Surnames and Christian names without any obvious success, apart from one man....!
One really salient point is that there was one A E Harrison mentioned within this date range. This Officer had a change made to his Rank on May 12th 1919, this change was published on October 14th 1919 in the LG. Subsequently, five days later, Nora Harrison in Australia was notified via a "Form of Commission" that her estranged husband Ex Capt A E Harrison had been Commissioned into a British Regular Force.
This man is well known to me and re-researched recently by Roger and JDS1959 at the British Archives. This fellow is Alfred Ernest Harrison who was to be an Acting Captain promoted from a L/t in the Beds and Herts. This man has impeccable credentials and history, he joined the military as a Private in 1915 was Commissioned in 19/12/1916 and Gazetted on the 31/01/1917. When AEH/AIF was in Perham Down in Custody, The above British AE Harrison was wounded in Ypres France. So definitely this fellow is who he says he is.
It does disturb me, that there is only a few days between the LG published details of AE Harrison of Beds and Herts and the subsequent correspondence to Nora Harrison in Australia, regarding her estranged husband AIF-AE Harrison. There is just one relatively subjective reason that I continue to pursue the military aspects of AEH/AIF who was apparently Commissioned into a British Regular Force.
The rank mentioned in the "Form of Commission" is described quite positively as a "T2ndL/t in the first instance" and the above British, Alfred Ernest Harrison was never a T2L/t and his Gazzette entry was not for a T2L/t. This can only mean it's another man, and that man whatever his name, must be described in the London Gazette as every Military Rank change was Gazetted in this publication.
The upshot of this new epiphany, is a new approach.
I am going to extract from the LG all the T2ndL/t's and 2ndL/t's of any name, that were Commissioned or joined any Regular British Service from January 1919 to October 1919. I am guessing, that there will not be very many men who meet this criteria. At this time in 1919 the war was well over and there were thousands if not millions of NCO's and Officers leaving the service. The LG describes this exodus in detail
Importantly, relatively few were joining or being Commissioned in 1919, In fact to be honest I can't believe that any men were receiving Commissions at this stage, given that so many well qualified and previously Commissioned men were being dismissed, discharged and demobilised back into Civilian life.
I again confirm, that in my opinion, Medal Index Cards can't be used reliably to determine a man's existence or not. I am consistently confronted with Service Records of Officers and NCO's not having MIC's, I initially thought that all men would naturally have a card, this is not the case.
Notwithstanding the above regarding MIC's, I checked the MIC's for Harrison's in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, there were 113 in total and 2 Officers, none of which could have been AEH, at this stage.
The engrossing of the book ANZACS in Archangel continues without any obvious result, save, an interesting story.
If anyone has any thoughts on this new theory, I'd be really interested to hear of them..!
Cheers
Ian
PS: In relation to the Welsh Fusiliers badge, speaking with my son yesterday regarding badges, he reports that it is not uncommon for soldiers to swap badges and he reports that he has many military badges from all over the world. He's now in the Royal Engineers AIF Reserve. Perhaps, this is an explanation for the appearence of the RWF badge.
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Yes I would agree gizzits and swapsies are common in all three services...
Impeccable credential and history-hmm given how history can be rewritten and credentials can be bought maybe a contradiction in terms? Your AEH was a "smart" cookie and probably knew people who could do these things for him.... Day of the Jackal comes to mind!
AEHs story if you ever get to the bottom of it and even now with the stuff you have done sounds like a good book. I look forward to hearing you have published it....
Dee
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Just a comment on your proposed new approach Ian, starting in January 1919 leaves a gap of some seventeen months that AEH could have slipped through. I think I understand your reasons, but if there is to be a successful conclusion then the search must be exhaustive.
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One for the Moderator please: I have been notified that this topic has been split into 2 sections, though I recived 2 emails, they both refer me to topic 462650! Where is the other part so I can cross reference please?
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G'day Roger,
Regarding the seventeen months:
I see your point and may I think out loud..!
He was GCM'd and dismissed at Tidworth August 28th 1917
He was discharged in London August 28th 1918
He can't rejoin a new British unit until he is properly discharged and then requires his discharge papers to use as evidence that he was originally a Captain with the 19th Battalion AIF.
The AIF has no knowledge of his whereabouts and is unable to tell his wife Nora of any movements up until October 1919
On the 10th October 1919 the AIF inform Nora that her estranged husband has been commissioned as a T2ndL/t in the British Permanent Army
My decision to restrict the search to 10 months is based on this letter to Nora in October describing his Commission. I would like to believe that this information is hot off the press "I could be wrong and you could be right" I've considered that it was probably within two months, let’s say between August and October.
To be certain of capture "the benefit of the doubt" I've given it another seven months to be quite sure of capturing all the possibilities.
I see your point about going back still further into 1918; however the economies of scale become huge, so big that it becomes an impossible task. This period encompasses the end of the War and possibly thousands of T2ndL/t and 2ndL/t's. It would be different if I was to look for only Harrison's or Harris’s etc, but the objective is to do all men of these two ranks, who are either joining units or receiving new Commissions.
However, I acknowledge that there are some shortcomings with the method, but given the scale of the initial searches perusing the alignment of the Rank vs Unit/Commission criteria and then to research each single man's record for anomalies will be an onerous task. I think to broaden the search period will blow out the scale of results enormously.
But, I will know in the next couple of days where this will take me. I'll go back into 1918 and ascertain the magnitude of the results and then make a decision based on these figures
Roger, thanks for the Jolt of perspective,
Cheers
Ian
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I've made a blue, Nora received the form of Commission on October 10th 1919 and the publication in the London Gazette was on October 15th
Impossible that the Commission information came from the Gazette.......mmmmmm
Ian
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Ian, Just looked at earlier posts regarding the letter that Nora received regarding AEH's commission. Do we know who signed the letter? Or is it a per pro and an illegible squiggle? If it's a signature it might just might cross refgerence with something else in this thread.
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Dear Roger,
In relation to the covering letter of Oct 1919 to Nora Harrison, pertaining to the existence of a Commission, I submit the following:
Including the above document, there are about three other documents in AEH's service records that are from the same origin.
These records originate at Base Records and apparently from the same Officer in Charge, this would be Victoria Barracks, St Kilda Rd Melbourne Australia.
In each case the following text is observed:
Major
Officer I/C Base Records
In each case the correspondence relates to Nora's RFI regarding her estranged husband AEH
In each case the signature is created by "Mr Squiggle"
In each case I can't be sure if it's the same signature
In each case I can't be sure if its is actually the Officer in charge signing or someone acting on his behalf, "a staff member"
I'm happy to extract these signatures and post them here if you need to view them
Hope this is of some use.
Cheers
Ian
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Dear Roger and JDS1949,
I have a question regarding one of the Service Records that you located and engrossed at the Archives.
Specifically the one regarding Lt Acting Captain Alfred Ernest Harrison of the Beds and Herts.
Were the records that you found his Attestation and general records or his pension records?
If they were his pension records did you notice a page regarding an RFI pertaining to an L/t AE Harrison not appearing on the Army list and where could it be found?
And then a response regarding this same issue of Lt AE Harrison not visible in the list but in-fact identified under the name of AE Harris in the Army list?
I also have initially discovered an anomaly regarding his first Commission date, I have a different date from the one that Dave identifies and this could be nothing but a mistake in my research or something more significant.
I think I only have his pension documents, are there Attestation papers??
Thanks
Ian
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Ian, My recollection is that John (JDS) did this work. Hope he spots the posting, but if not perhaps a PM might be helpful.
Roger
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Roger, thanks
I've got some more on this issue and will post soon
cheers
Ian
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Will wait for it Ian.
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Dear Ian & Roger,
Back after a short break...As far as I can recall Alfred Ernest Harrison's file did not include his original attestation - but I shall check it when I go to Kew sometime next week. I shall endeavour to answer your other queries at that time as well.
jds1949
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Dear Jds1949,
Welcome back, could I please ask your advice?
I've attached a couple of documents that relate to Alfred Ernest Harrison of the Beds and Herts for your diagnosis please
The first one is a listing of vitals for who I believe Alfred Ernest is. The list defines his history and references cited for his Commission. Could you please confirm that info generally aligns with the details that you saw at the Archives for this man.
The second document is from the same record set of AEH-Bed-Herts and is either there because it relates to Alfred or is there by accident. It relates to an AE Harris who was originally thought to be a Harrison and then direction to transfer from KRRC to MGC infantry. Then his name doesn't appear in the Army List and also that his name is incorrectly formed
can you please confirm that you have or haven't seen this particular document in the Alfred E Harrison file at the Archives. If not, we might be talking about different records and possibly a different men??
I also have some concerns about the date you identified for Alfred's Commission being June 19th 1918 I have him Commissioned on 19/12/1916, its quite possible that I have something confused
What's your take on this?
Thanks
Ian
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Ian,
The document setting out the history of Alfred Ernest of the Norfolk & Beds / Herts Regiments would seem to relate pretty much to the file that I saw at the NA. I will do a more detailed check when I go back next week and list any discrepancies that I can find. I shall also try to confirm the date of his commission.
I do not recall seeing the second document relating to Harris/Harrison - but again I will check next week.
It's a tempting possibility that AEH simply dropped the last two letters of his surname - we'll know more when I've had a chance to chase it up next week - until then I'm not going to commit myself one way or the other.
Regards,
jds1949
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Yes; it would almost be too easy, but could well be what actually happened. Keep us all posted please.
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Dear Roger and JDS1949,
I've been researching the latest man and it appears that although his hallmarks look a bit dodgie with several issues attracting attention, it appears that he is, who he say's he is, albeit that his records are missing and what remains is combined accidentally into another man's file. It turns out that I mentioned him a couple of weeks ago and he has previously surfaced twice from different sources, His Medal card and the Gazzette.
Not surprising I guess...!
I've included his vitals, they might be required in a later investigation to dismiss another anomaly. If you see something that I've missed please give me a prodding...!
Medal Index card:
Harris Alfred Edward
KRRC L/Cpl Tr/13/G21G
MGC 2ndL/t
Victory and British medals issued Off/227/55e 1.VX/1117d/6.7.22NW/6/20875
No Trace of Rank or Service
Deceased 02/07/1918
Theatre of war first served in France
Date of Entry 06/06/1918
Father appliedfor medals 06/03/1922
Father WB Harris Esq 254 Wellingborough Rd Northhampton
London Gazette:
Supplement to the London Gazette: 2015
Date of Entry: 13/02/1918
T2ndL/t AE Harris From Serv Batt to KRRif
To be 2ndL/t with seniority 26/04/1917
Date of occurrence: 20/12/1917
Details from the Minute sheet: Contained within the Alfred Ernest Harrison of Beds & Herts fame.
• (To NSK): Please transfer to MGC (infantry) 20/12/1917
• T2ndL/t AE Harris KRRC (From AG9) 12/01/17 (might be meant to be 12/01/18)
• (To AG9) can you say where this Officers name is to be found in the Army list please? (from Aus19) 22/01/1918
• (To NSK) We regret name was wrongly described in list 1. It should be T2ndL/t AE Harris KRRC (From AG) 23/01/1918
• Submitted 02/02/1918 (fromMMB)
Commonwealth war Graves Commission:
HARRIS, ALFRED EDWARD
Initials: A E
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Second Lieutenant
Regiment/Service: Machine Gun Corps (Infantry)
Unit Text: 12th Bn.
Age: 21
Date of Death: 02/07/1918
Additional information: Son of William B. Harris, of Abington Works, Wellingborough Rd., Northampton.
He was only 21 years of age and lasted only a month in France......!!
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Ian,
thanks for the update - that saves me from duplicating your effort next week
jds1949
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Dear JDS1949,
now that we have confirmed who 2L/t AE Harris is, I think we can also conclude that Alfred Ernest Harrison Beds and Herts is also who he say's he is. The document in the file was there in error, no wonder there was some questions about his past service and rank, these pages could have been missing during the war let alone now. This isn't the first time I've found combined documents, even in the NCO's files and they have regimental numbers that makes identification easier.
The Officers records are a mess when it comes to similar names and ranks, their system wasn't really foolproof, I guess they had to get it going quickly and didn't have enough time to set up proper rules, although the "long Numbers"were available but I'm just not too sure if they work either
Now, refocus, where am I going?, these intrim issues seriously do side track me...!
Ian
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My trip to the British Library is likely to be around 24th September Ian, so unless we have everything resolved in the meantime I shall make sure I am briefed regarding what we need from the Indian Army records. Regarding misfiled documents, I saw this during my railways employment several times. Though usually accidental or careless work, it was also a very good way of losing papers from contentious cases! I wonder if that happened to AEH? Computerised records weren't much better co-ordinated either, I remember dealing with a service matter for one of my staff at Birmingham, only to find he had in fact been dismissed 7 years earlier.He had of course been reinstated on appeal, but the records had never been updated, took me three weeks to unravel that one. Nearly as bad as AEH!
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Dear Ian,
I take it then that there is no need to re-visit Alfred Ernest's file. I shall be going to the NA next week - do let me know [by Tuesday if possible] if you want me to chase anything for you then.
jds1949
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Dear Roger and JDS1949,
yes the misfiling is a bother and sounds like it happens everywhere, it certainly happens here as I have lost my WO338 index (the printed version) and it has to be in a file somewhere in this house......! Grrrrrrr
As for Alfred Ernest's file, I've had second thoughts, if you have a chance please confirm that the information that I have is the same as you have seen at the TNA.
Its been a torrid couple of days, I've been beavering away at home and elsewhere going over some aspects of AEH's Service Records again. I had said previously that I would mount a question regarding the "form of Commission" this aspect has always had me puzzled
I now have a more logical explanation of what happened regarding the receipt of a Commission document by Nora. (and I didn't work this out myself)
We believe that AEH was Commissioned and entered into the British Permanent Army. He was due a Commission Certificate or as we know it a "Form of Commission" AEH didn't give a forwarding address of perhaps an address that he was no-longer residing a Hotel or boarding house. The British Military sent this document to this address by Registered mail and it bounced. The British Military knew that he was originally with the AIF. They sent it to the AIF to be sent on to his NOK. The AIF then sent it off to her.
They send it along with two other documents, the covering letter explaining that this is a Commission Form for her husband that has joined the British Army, they wish her to sign the receipt card and return it to Victoria Barracks in Melbourne and wish her to forward the Commission form on to AEH
At this point we now know that she is aware that he has joined the British Military, we don't know if she knows his location in the UK. At this point she either sends it on if she knows where he lives (unlikely) or bins it or keeps it.
The important thing here is that the British Army know how to get back to Nora via the AIF, so this confirms that he was using his correct name or none of this would be possible. The term "for transmission to him" resonates in my head because I have never understood the meaning of this term in context with the other information, now it makes perfect sense (to me)
We believe that he was actually out of the Army in October 1919 and the receipt of the Commission document was a housekeeping exercise after the war. It is therefore possible that he joined using his name (A or Albert Harrison) around the time of his Discharge from the AIF in August 1918. So we believe that we should consider reviewing the Army lists between the period August 1918 to say June 1919
The next part is even more fanciful and salacious....!!
There are three documents in his service file that relate to correspondence between the AIF and the Department of Repatriation. These are a request on behalf of the Department Doctor requesting information regarding AEH via a B103 sheet in relation to a living allowance. I had historically thought this to be for Nora, however it is reasonable to conclude that it might be for AEH given that Nora's name isn't mentioned and the Department was for soldiers and not dependants, these documents were written on November 1922, the third item in the group is a DVA file card made out to | Capt Harrison A E | Repat | 22/11/22 | 0/205 | ??? only| suggesting that there was a Repatriation file. We have hit this angle hard previously without success, the files have been raided and there only remains an empty folder......!
The B103 form is a listing of all significant issues regarding his career, inc. medical, promotions, crimes and postings
What do you think, plausible....??
Ian
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The next question....!
who is Albert Edward Harrison in the WO338 Index with the long number that relates to a missing file in W0339 and was born in 1888 it can't be Alfred Ernest he was born in 1887 and is underneath the AEH entry
The one I'm speaking about is the man with the perfectly formed ink smudge on Regiment
I'm only speaking of this fellow again as he keeps invading my thoughts. I see no other Albert Edward Harrison's who are Officers, and yet this fellow appears to be the real deal albeit apparently born in 1888 according to the right hand DOB column
JDS1949, any work on WO338 index or WO339 files would be really appreciated if you have any time at the TNA, particulary A and Alberts.
Cheers
Ian
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The Western Australian National Archives have just made contact regarding a research request that I issued several weeks ago. They report that they have opened the file for viewing. Subsequently, upon inspection the man was identified as an NCO of the name Alfred Ernest Harrison born 1880 in Western Australia
I had previously confirmd that this file was of this fellow a couple of weeks ago and determined that I didn't require it after all. I confirm that it isn't Ex Capt AE Harrison AIF
Another fasle alarm
Ian
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Ian, Reply No.282 makes complete logical sense to me. There is still the problem over the dates of receipt though. If as you seem to have very reasonably conjectured (I can't quite say proved) he had re enlisted under his own name then you must go back to the period shortly after his dismissal from the service, I would guess that an accurate date of birth is the first thing he would discard in the circumstances.
Alfred Ernest b1880 is not a false alarm, he is a false trail eliminated, and need not concern researchers ffurther.
Roger
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Congratulations 20 pages of a truly fascinating thread! ;D
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I just wanted to add that I'm another following this thread avidly. A truly intriguing investigation.
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Ian and Roger,
I went to Kew today - but as I had a mass of my own stuff to do I was not able to spare much time on AEH. However, I did look again at the officer file for Alfred Ernest H - and I am now convinced that he was who he said he was and had nothing to do with AEH. Amongst other things in his file was his birth certificate and his original attestation in the ranks, as well as masses of other evidence. I shall email you both with one or two photos which will give you chapter and verse.
I'm beginning to become more and more convinced that the AEH with the ink blot from WO 338 is our man - despite the wrong birth year. If he was only in the British Army for a short period, which is looking increasingly likely, then it would have been a thin file and very likely to have been weeded out of existence - especially if the British Authorities thought that AEH had returned to Australia, which is what I am also beginning to believe.
jds1949
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Dear Roger,
I'm glad you agree with the recently held theories regarding the "form of Commission" , "for transmission to him" and the "return of receipt" issues. They have plagued me for years and more recently you guys have harangued me about it, particularly JDS who rightfully challenged the logic of the whole thing in "PM"
It does seem to be a more logical outcome. When this alternate view arose, I had just worked two night shifts and was quite "jet lagged" I closed down the computer and went outside to continue painting the house. My son quipped "whats up dad? you don't seem to be with it"...! I was absolutely away with the fairies.
Not having a logical reason for any of this Commission business was always a bugging me and to have something logical was a real shift and I had to really get my head around it. It's interesting how your mind can make something illogical become almost plausible.
This new approach to the Commission business is plausible (I agree, not prooven).
I understand your insistence on the dates, I will go back to the Discharge date on all future research. I began the task of transcribing all the London Gazette "Harrison's form August 28th 1918 until Dec 31 1919. I'm at 30 so far and have left out a few that just couldn't be AEH.
I was so wrong about doing all the "LG" 2L/t and T2L/t's within the above dates, there are "bl#%dy" thousands, its enough to do the Harrison's. In light of our recent assertion that he has kept his name, it would seem to be useless to do this task, however the LG searches are at the mercy of the OCR scanning software and subsequent accuracy or not. So for all the sensible reasons of diligent research and leaving no stone unturned, I will continue as I had previously agreed to do. It is amazing what turns up with the LG searches, when you think you have everything another result surfaces. It's a really padantic search engine...!
Regarding birth dates, I hold the belief of AEH changing his birth year as a confirmed yes, very strongly. However, his day and month will remain accurate I believe. If you had buggered up everything in your life and all semblance of honesty and integrity was up for grabs, I just think that you would hold onto some childhood memories of a birthday party on August 28th. His service records confirm this pattern of changing his age and or the year but not the day and month.
Thanks
Ian
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I did try to follow this thread in its early stages.... but I lost track.. so when you do have it sorted .. can you send me a pm with a short synopsis.. its so intriquing..
Who is going to write the book?? ;)
Xin
ps I am not trying to make light of all the hard work that is going in to discovering the truth about all this...
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Dear Dee and Scintilla,
thanks to all you folk this story and search continues. Without this Forum the process would be at the mercy of my research shortcomings, the tyranny of distance and the limitations of a single or myopic approach to some difficult research issues.
Bouncing ideas off others is invaluable, this mechanism provides the means to put together like-minded people's thoughts together and we can see the effects of that here.
I'm glad you're along on the journey with me, I hope AEH is worth the trouble.
There a couple of blokes doing the lion's share of the real work and I am indebted to them for this work.
"I'm just the Digger in the trench"
Cheers
Ian
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I'm sorry if this is a stupid suggestion but the thought just keeps niggling away at me.
It concerns the mention of a Suspense List on his MIC. Is this a physical list, and has it been archived? If so, it might have much more than just his name and rank.
Regards,
Colin
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Dear Xin,
When I go back into the thread for reference it does amaze me how anybody can follow all of this. It's on my mind all the time, so its relatively easy for me , albeit I am forgetting things that I've said and have to return to the thread archives to remind me where I'm at
So your comment "I did try to follow this thread in its early stages.... but I lost track" is absolutely understandable, this about thoughts and clues, not really very much concrete evidence yet..!
As for "Who is going to write the book?? " well at the moment it would be about Casper the Ghost. Without the prime witness we have nothing to write about but a really good hunt for a bloke that didn't want anybody to find him.
Interestingly the more I research this man the more I realise that there were so many men doing similar things. They were strange times. In today's world "big brother" knows every move we make, our tax file number is linked to everything, not officially, but all the Government data-bases link together now.
Rest assured whatever happens in the hunt for AEH will be placed onto this thread
Thanks
Ian
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G'day Colin,
No at all stupid, I've had the same thoughts about this list..!
I'm guessing it's a list of men who weren't supposed to receive Medals due to numerous reasons
What is on the list and whether it still exists is a good question.
I'll have a go at getting an answer and if anybody else knows here please let us all know.
I have seen it on other MIC's so it isn't unique to AEH. I should have taken down where else I've seen it, so we could draw some conclusions as to what sort of issues were associated with the people who were on the list.
I'm guessing bad and nasty stuff. Bad boys don't get gold stars on their school work. The kid who sat next to me in 5th grade got them all the time. He became a Police Inspector...!
Thanks Col, I'll do some searching and get back..!
Cheers
Ian
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Phew! That was a relief, Ian.
As I said before, I am no expert, but getting a flavour of how things worked, I have the impression that if such a list exists, it will be something like Name, Rank, Service Number and Unit and a reference to some file or other that contains official records. This could explain missing records in AEH's files (if I remember rightly).
Fingers crossed for your search.
G'Night ;D
Colin
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As for "Who is going to write the book?? " well at the moment it would be about Casper the Ghost. Without the prime witness we have nothing to write about but a really good hunt for a bloke that didn't want anybody to find him.
Ian
I think you are wrong I think people would be interested in the hunt... Do they do an Australian version of the BBCs Who Do You Think You Are? It would be great to get the full power Australian Broadcasting Company and its money behind your search. As you say there are many people who are on the same sort of hunt and it would be good for them to see where and what research people have looked into..
Perhaps a pamphlet if you dont think a book? I am sure the Aussie Archive people would stock it!!!
Dee
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Thanks Ian, When I next visit the National Army Museum, I will ask if they have any knowledge of such a list. It could save a great deal of further leg work. Most of this game is knowing where to look, which is why it is sometimes necessary to set on a professional researcher. A short anecdote from the early days of railways: A company bought a steam locomotive from Geo. Stephenson which developed a fault, their mechanics could not fix it, so they sent for Stephenson himself, he took one look, asked for a sledge hammer hit the motion of the engine, and submitted a bill for £5. The company directors were horrified and asked him for a breakdown. This was his reply "To hitting motion of locomotive 6d; to knowing where to hit it £4/19/6d"
JDS has done most of the really hard graft.
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G'day Colin,
I've been looking into your question regarding the "Suspence list" issue, and again I have sought superior knowledge to answer the question. "herewith the result of my RFI on your question, verbatim"
"My understanding is that the 'suspence list' reference simply means that he was to be investigated on some disciplinary matter and that the issue of his medals was to be suspended until the investigation was concluded. It could then be that the authorities would lift the suspension, and that his medals would then be issued. Reasons for being placed on this list could be that he was taken POW and there was a question-mark as to the circumstances of his capture, or that he was considered to have transgressed in some way (I've seen it in the case of officers who were courts-matialled and dismissed for being 'unsuitable'), etc. I've only ever found it on officer's MIC's, and in every case the suspension was lifted and the medals were issued. So it wasn't a formal 'List' such as the army list, it was a list of people who were being investigated at various times during the period during which the WW1 campaign medals were being issued.
I have no reason to believe that there ever was a formal list of those exonerated or those who remained on 'suspence', and the 'list' does still exist in the form of the MIC's. You will commonly see 'suspence list' and 'exonerated list' on the MIC's. Like I said earlier, I have come across cards for men whose medals were definately issued but whose MIC's still state 'suspence list'. And the reasons for suspension can easily be surmised (from my experience) by checking his service file" (The HeadGardener- Great War Forum)
So, it appears that there isn't a formal list and our genereal thoughts are confirmed that AEH was initially not to receive any medals due to GCM
Hope this helps, It has certainly helped my understanding, thanks for initiating the query
Ian
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G'day JDS,
Once again many thanks for your time and trouble in persuit of AEH.
Thanks for checking Alfred Ernest again, I was pretty sure he was ridgy-dig, but with other service Records within his and a couple of other issues it really needed to be checked again.
Regarding the WO338 AEH man. I do agree with your sentiments regarding this fellow as always there are reasons for and against.
The issues:
1: The name match is perfect
2: The ink blot over the unit name is another example of really bad luck or perfect placement, I'm trying to resolve this by locating the original index
3: The DOB is quite wrong but this could be as simple as Alfred Ernest's DOB in the wrong place/cell. he was born in 1887 near enough to 1888, if it had been deduced by a clerk for some differentiation reason"...?
4: As yet, there is no other Officer reference found with the name Albert Edward Harrison in any other repository or record, or, should I say, he is the only Albert Edward Harrison Officer found in any record or registry.
I agree that hypothetically a thin file particularly without significant issues such as medical, pay, crimes, promotion or valour might be subject to culling.
However, there are approximately six service records missing in a sequential group including the ink-smudge AEH's, suggesting that its exclusion isn't peculiar to AEH.
I'd like to think it is nothing more than a clerical mistake during the TNA archive creation phase many years ago. I keep finding mis-files everywhere.
The consideration that AEH might have returned back to Australia is certainly tantalising but this would render my original research an abject failure. I originally researched all Australian BMD's to find AEH and never found a Death Certificate. I am not rejecting a return to my original civilian research. Logically the Military issues need to be resolved prior to a return.
The family have recently opened up some discussion on this subject, some of the grandchildren lived with Nora in her later years and what came from this connection and discussion was that AEH did build a family in England after the war, naturally there is no evidence of this.
Albeit, that it appears that Temporary Officers aren't listed in the Army Lists , I have purchased the 1918 Army List and will have this by next week, I'm not sure what I will see there but will let you know.
I have found some interesting issues with Royal W Fusilier NCO's and I'm tracking these
I'm building another list of all the A and AE Harrison London Gazette entries, initially from August 1918 until October 1919 and because of Roger's concerns I'll broaden this search to include a wider date range if I don't find anything. It is looking interesting at this stage.
"Too many secrets"
Ian
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Hello Ian,
I'm sorry I gave you an extra burden because you have enough on your plate, but I still have a feeling that the Suspense List exists somewhere, or did exist!
The reply you got was quite logical - a dodgy soldier gets investigated, and until the matter is resolved his medal entitlement is suspended, but my concern is why would they note it as "Suspense List" as opposed to Suspended or Referred or Withheld. Beurocracy was fairly precise with terminology in those days, so that it could be understood across the board, without misinterpretation. In my books, a List is a List.
Regards,
Colin
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Next visit to the NAM I will make enquiries as to whether this list has ever existed. Like you Colin, I believe that a list is a list.
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Dear all,
at this stage we believe that AEH was actually using his real name, a large percentage of of time and energy has been spent looking for a possible alternate name.
Sylvia has found a list of AIF men who were using aliases and for many reasons it's amazing to see them.
So many men?, why did they do it?, aliases nothing like the real name?, etc, etc..!!!
AEH isn't present, I've attached the list for interest sake, it's interesting to see the variations from the original names
Ian
REF: "ADF project"
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Roger and Colin,
probably not such a bad idea to ask the experts at the NA for some help on this subject, but I'm guessing that if a list did exist, it's probably well and truly gone, but let's hope..!
I'm also looking at why a half a dozen records in the sequential list of W0339 records are missing. JDS has requested an answer on a previous occasion and apparently it isn't known, so this is another unknown issue requiring resolution
Ian
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Ian,
Not strictly true to say that it isn't known. A lot of the files were weeded in the 1930s if they contained little or nothing of administrative value. I suspect that files on officers who were commissioned for a short period immediately after the end of the war would have had files with very little in them and would therefore be prime candidates for weeding. If the file in WO 338 was our man [and I believe it was] and if he was in the army for only a short while, then his file could easily have been weeded as having no administrative value.
I agree that we don't know for certain that is what happened, but it is a logical scenario which fits the known facts. As I have also said previously there was nothing unusual in this, scores of files were treated in the same way, including one relating to one of my great uncles. However, I shall ask the question again next time I am at Kew.
jds1949
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Agree with JDS on this oneThe empty file in WO338 does fit the known fact. However, Ian will lokk at the National Archive, I willl ask at the NAM. Regarding the list of aliases there seem to be two main categories at a brief glance, i.e definite name changes, and spelling variants. There may of course be other possibilities.
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Roger and JDS,
I might be missing something here?
the index that we are referring to here is WO338 and this is the official long number reference originally a book digitised and for free download at your NA, I have previously attached an extract of this book in the form of a page of Harrison's specifically, the Albert Edward Harrison with the smudge over the Unit cell
The WO338 index describes official Officer Long Numbers and these are converted directly to NA files in the WO339 series
I can understand that the odd file was culled under some administrative weeding criteria. However in this case, there appears to be a group of files missing without reason. These files are sequential suggesting either some sort of intentional pattern or accidental error
Are we talking about the same issue here? I guess what I am talking about is that the long numbers survive and there was a corresponding WO339 number reference created, why bother creating this link reference and why are there several in this WO339 group just not there as a group.
The way I understand it is, the WO339 long number file isn't created in the first place if the administrative criteria isn't met
I think I have the list of missing sequential files somewhere, would this help??
I haven't spoken to the experts at the NA so I am probably wrong I guess???
Ian
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Ian,
As I understand it a number of files were weeded in the 1930s as they no longer contained any material that was of use to the authorities. I don't know [which is why I will check when I'm next at Kew] but I strongly suspect that these were files of men who had been commissioned for only a short period at or after the end of the war. These men would have left the army between 1918 and 1920 and have no pension entitlement or call on the authorities - which is why the files were weeded [as having no "administrative value"]. As numbers in the Army tended to get issued in batches I have little doubt that the run of numbers you refer to were numbers issued to men who all fell into this category.
I also suspect that the long numbers were generated when there were files - i.e. prior to the weeding exercise, which is why they survived although the files didn't.
I shall however try to confirm this next week.
jds1949
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Thanks JDS,
I'll try and establish how I know there is a seqential group together that are missing
It's AEH's birthday today, another year passed.!!
Ian
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Ian, There is every chance I shall be in London towards next weekend. Can you please pm me the details that you want me to look for at the British Library?
Roger
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Ian,
as I recall it was I who told you that it was one of a sequence - see post 174
jds1949
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I watched an adaption of Somerset Maughnans Sword of Honor last night. In it one of the characters who gets chucked out of the Halberdiers then turns up as a Scottish Anti Aircraft Captain! When tasked about it Crouchback the main character he says "The Army is a big place". He had changed his name to his mothers maiden name! Nothing to do with AEH but fascinating that it was obviously still going on in WW2 for it to be used in a book!
Dee
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Dear Roger, Dee and JDS,
Roger, what resources are actually at the British Library? or is this just another way of saying the National Archives?
Dee, I'll have to get that movie, its interesting that so many men seem to choose their mother's maiden name as their alias name, I guess they want to still have some sort of family identity or association?
I always link AEH with the movie "Hanover St", I was interested in the story-line well before the emergence of AEH, I'm not sure what that can mean, maybe I liked Leslie-Anne Down...! or maybe it was Harrison Ford, perhaps the Harrison part got me going.....LOL.
Needless to say, there are some who think that if there was another woman, it was quite possible that it was a nurse, given the amount of time he spent in hospital and sick in London, Leslie-Anne Down played the part of a Nurse and Harrison Ford the part of an American Pilot in London WW2.
JDS, yes, you are quite right you did tell me off the sequential file group that was missing and that AEH's file was part of this group, I had previously looked at the missing WO338/WO339 long number service record connection and you confirmed this
Thanks for all the info
Ian
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Hi all,
looks like we've been sent off to the front for some Military specific manoeuvres.
At this point I should say thankyou to all those that have helped in this quest to date.
It was a good decision to begin this thread in the "common Room" it's quite possible that the major part of this story was carried out in the Civilian world but as we've found it was born in the Military world and this is where we have been spending our time, trying to unravel the Genesis of this story.
I've had lots of PM's regarding civilian based research and this material will I'm sure have its time in the near future after we have established what happened to AEH between 1917 to 1919 and thereafter, to all those lovely folk, thankyou for your unseen help
Off we go again, the day after his Birthday, his Wedding day, his Court Martial and his Discharge from the AIF
Thanks
Ian
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Ian, No, the Brritish Library is separate from the National Archive. I believe that what you needed to be investigated was an officer in the Indian Army, but can't remember exactly what it was that was needed.
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Hi Ian
Heres the link to the DVD of the programme I was talking about courtesy of Amazon:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sword-Honour-DVD-Daniel-Craig/dp/B00158FK1U/ref=sr_tr_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1283182530&sr=8-1
By the way Daniel Craig played Crouchback and made a very good fist of it!
Will have to look up Hanover Street... I like Harrison Ford! Dont remember seeing that one..
Dee
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The Sword of Honour trilogy was, I believe, written by Evelyn Waugh - not Somerset Maugham
jds1949
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G'day Roger,
what FH and Military resources does the British Library have?
I remember, we were to have a look at A Harrison (Alec I think) of the 130 Bulchas.
I have a list of possibles that I will post in a couple of days, that might help the cause, before I post I'm trying to gather the list of blokes that have been done.
I was doing the list of LG entries, but I've had a really hard week at work and absolutely nil time for AEH, I'm hoping for a better week
Cheers
Ian
Ian
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Dear Dee,
thanks for the link to the Sword of Honour movie.
Hanover St is pretty much "I believe" AEH's story without the Courts Martial and the estranged family back home, it's an illicit love story set in WW2, The nurse being married already and the US Pilot Captain not knowing this and the rest makes the story
Cheers
Ian
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The Sword of Honour trilogy was, I believe, written by Evelyn Waugh - not Somerset Maugham
jds1949
Apologies yes you are right jds. I was doing it off the top of my head...
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Dear all,
I've just received the August 1818 Army list CD in the mail, it's quite interesting and I'm still learning how to use it. It actually may have AEH in it, I'm not sure but it does have a mention of
Harrison A - Aust Contgt and AE Harrison Reserve of Officers and I have no clue what "New Army" means.
I'll keep going and let you know what the outcome is
Here "below" is what's in the Index
Ian
Harrison A -----New Armies 1327f
Harrison A Aust Contgt 1899c
R- Harrison A 659g
R- Harrison A 655h, 659g
Harrison A Ches Rg 1101c
T Harrison A R Scots 901c 1562j
T Harrison A 1615b
Harrison A Suff Rg 1016d
Harrison A North’d Fus 942d
Harrison A E Kent Rg 920
Harrison A ASC 1656
Harrison A RFA 598b
Harrison A A 1401, 1404c
T Harrison A E 990
Harrison A E Res of Off 2320 & 2639
T = Territorial Service
R = Special Reserve Of Officers
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Ian,
the New Armies were the ones raised by Kitchener ["Your Country Needs You!"] - the first of them saw service from 1915 onwards.
jds1949
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Ian, I believe the British Library is particularly useful for the records of the East India Company and of India when it was taken over in the late 1850s and ruled as a colony. I am going likely Thursday, if you do not have all the information ready by then I will just look for the guy in the 130 Baluchas, no problem as I have some information to search for myself, and have had to bring the visit forwards by three weeks due to other committments. I shall probably be going again later in the month. That Harrison in the Australian Contingent looks very promising, specially as it is August 1918.
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Hi, this has been fascinating reading.
I rasied it with my mother who is 83.
She raised the possibility that some of the "special" contingents once enlisted were given new identities prior to their specialised training or to their leaving for the field of service.
This way there would be nothing in the official records to link any of the personel killed on one of the missions to the force they served with.
My mother worked on aircraft enginess at a RAAF training base in Australia during ww2 and knew that most of those coming to do special trianing (parachuting etc) were already using completely new identities whilst undergoing their training.
No one on the base knew their true identities.
There is no reason that this practice did not happen during and after WW1 it might explain the mising records etc.
Just another thought to add to this intriguing story.
Robyn
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Dear all,
I thought I'd report on the first pass of the August 1918 Army list, I'm beginning to understand the workings of this text and the viewer, there are some technical anomalies, the usual OCR digitising and Viewer search engine difficulties, but we are lucky to have it
Below is my first impressions and some comments on some of the men, I'll keep going over the next few days and post again when there is some more concrete info
Some of these blokes require some more research, but as I haven't actually seen that many British Service Records It's difficult to dismiss them without more info, but I'm onto it
~~~~~~~~-----------------
>>
Harrison A -----New Armies 1327f
This fellow is A Harrison DSO and is mentioned widely in the LG for several actions of valor. He was attached to the Loyal Nth Lancashire Reg, Commissioned July 1st 1917
Harrison A - Aust Contgt 1899c
This fellow is probably AEH, he is mentioned in the index but he is not mentioned in the detail section on page 1899c, however residing at this location is the West and South Australian 11th and 12th Btn (Australian Overseas Forces) Then at page 1900cc is the 19th Btn which is AEH’s Australian unit only a couple of pages away from 1899.
I believe that the detail was removed possibly at Dismissal around August 28th 1917 or possibly at Discharge in England on August 28th 1918 and the index has remained in-situ and remained in error describing him and pointing to the wrong page, this seems to add up to me. Interestingly if it is AEH he is described here as A Harrison, without the E. Importantly, this is one year after Dismissal from the AIF and obviously not a British unit…!
R- Harrison A 659g
R- Harrison A 655h, 659g
Harrison A Ches Rg 1101c
T- Harrison A R Scots 901c 1562j
This is A Harrison of the Royal Scots Lothian Reg MG Commissioned June 1st 1916
T- Harrison A 1615b
Harrison A Suff Rg 1016d
This is A Harrison of The Suffolk Reg Commissioned June 19th 1918 (2)
Harrison A North’d Fus 942d
Harrison A E Kent Rg 920
This is the East Kent fellow that we researched some time ago (I think)
Harrison A ASC 1656
A Harrison T2L/t of the Army Service Corps Commissioned Aug 26th 1917
Harrison A RFA 598b
I think this fellow is A Harrison of the Royal Field Artillery a 2L/t Commissioned Feb 25th 1918 in the Special Reserve
Harrison A A 1401, 1404c
This is AA Harrison of Allied Reg of Dominion of NZ 8th Southern Reg Capt 4th Batt
T Harrison A E 990 :-
This is Alfred Ernest Harrison of Bed & Herts and Norfolk fame at this point a Major 19th June 1918 4th Btn Territorial, not my man
Harrison A E Res of Off 2320 & 2639
This is Major AE Harrison who was commissioned in 15 Dec 1908 and was in the Reserve of Officers, this fellow is known and not our fellow. He is the first fellow in my LG sequential list. Page 2639 is not in the List it refers to Officers Graduations and apparently in some versions of the Army list these are omitted intentionally
T = Territorial Service
R = Special Reserve Of Officers
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G'day JDS,
thanks for the New Army explanation, Crikey..! the old Army was only a couple of years old.....LOL
Roger, I haven't got anything else to go on for you apart from the 130 Bulchas fellow. I keep getting sidetracked, not that I mind doing that but other things fall off the list as the memory gets strained, even my daily notes are getting complicated. I started being organised and now I've got research everywhere, Mr's H isn't happy...LOL
The stuff I was trying to get posted was the entire A Harrison WO lists, and they are nearly ready but not quite, but there wasn't anything there that I could see that was relating to India anyway....(I think)..?
I think there is another A Harrison from the Indian Railway (something or other), I saw him years ago, If you come across this bloke I'd be interested also
Thanks
Guys
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Dear Robyn,
Talk about fascinating, your story certainly puts another perspective on alternate names. I must admit that I hadn't considered a name created by the Military, but I guess if you were going behind lines or potentially caught as a spy, you wouldn't want your family back home in some danger and there is probably another dozen interesting reasons for alternate names.
I would hope that eventually there would be correct naming if they were killed in action, perhaps that's why we have lots of missing blokes, they are buried or lost under another name .
Interesting to hear of your mum working on engines with the RAAF, where was she stationed?
Please thank your mum for this interesting story, once again another direction to follow. Although I think that having him Court Martialed and sacked form the AIF was designed to remove him from possible further trouble. The chance that he was using an assumed name still exists but if he did the chances of finding him become increasingly more difficult.
Now here is a good question, where is the WW1 British Military Alias name list? Probably in the German archives...LOL
Thanks Robyn
Ian
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Dear Roger and JDS,
I've posted below the National Archives "WO" Harrison list, I think it all of them and between the three of us we have done about a dozen (I think) if you can remember which numbers you have done could you please cross them off the list in some way, I will do the same in the next few days
WO 374/31331
HARRISON, Lieut A
1914-1920
WO 374/31332
HARRISON, Capt A E
1915-1920
WO 374/31333
HARRISON, Lieut A F
1916-1920; 1923
WO 374/31334
HARRISON, Lieut A H
1915-1919; 1930
WO 374/31335
HARRISON, Capt A H
1916-1919
WO 374/31336
HARRISON, 2/Lieut A K
1915-1919
WO 374/31337
HARRISON, Lieut A L
1917-1920
WO 374/31338
HARRISON, Lieut A N
1914-1920
WO 374/31339
HARRISON, Lieut A R
1915-1919
WO 374/31340
HARRISON, 2/Lieut A R
1914-1920
WO 374/31341
HARRISON, 2/Lieut A S
1918-1919
WO 374/31342
HARRISON, Revd A S C
1914-1921
WO 374/31343
HARRISON, 2/Lieut A V
1915-
WO 339/51234
HARRISON A
[1914-1922]
WO 339/54918
HARRISON A
[1914-1922]
WO 339/83679
HARRISON A
[1914-1922]
WO 339/131387
HARRISON A
[1914-1922]
WO 339/132051
HARRISON A
[1914-1922]
WO 339/139173
HARRISON A
[1914-1922]
WO 339/6774
HARRISON J de C, Capt
1907-1916
WO 339/13223
HARRISON A, Capt
1914-1921
WO 339/25049
HARRISON A A, Capt
1914-1920
WO 339/41100
HARRISON A W, 2/Lieut
1915-1917
WO 339/61000
HARRISON A
[1914-1922]
WO 339/70076
HARRISON A
[1914-1922]
WO 339/70553
HARRISON A
[1914-1922]
WO 339/71139
HARRISON A
[1914-1922]
WO 339/77131
HARRISON A
[1914-1922]
WO 339/83679
HARRISON A
[1914-1922]
WO 339/98317
HARRISON A
[1914-1922
WO 339/109822
HARRISON A
[1914-1922]
WO 339/113906
HARRISON A
[1914-1922]
WO 339/128539
HARRISON A
[1914-1922]
WO 339/131387
HARRISON A
[1914-1922]
WO 339/132051
HARRISON A
[1914-1922]
WO 339/139173
HARRISON A
[1914-1922]
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Hi
We do tend to forget about the spy's and special forces etc. They were top secret and hush hush etc and these units obviously attracted men looking for excitement and danger. They still do.
Of course the army would deny their existance and the government would cover it up. It would be interesting to know if there are any accessible records on these special goups. I suspect that they would all have been destroyed during WW2 .
Ian my mother was based in Sale airforce base in Victoria
good hunting
Robyn
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Ian, Robyn's thoughts about special units do make sense in view of some of the things we though AEH might be involved in, Russia etc. Off to Baluchistan tomorrow, metaphorically not physically, will look out for the Indian Railway guy too.The guy in the index, but not the body of the Army list I feel confident is AEH.Just one slight caveat, this error is the commonest made in my experience; one I was always careful to avoid when covering my back at various times.
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Robyn and Roger,,,
my recently retired Brother in law was a Vietnam Vet conscript, in the process of arranging his pension with the Dept of Vet Affairs there was some discussion regarding his role in the War.
He was loosely attached to the US Army but still in the AIF. He had a hard time over there and needed to explain some post War Psyc issues with them, they flatly refused to admit these things had happend to him or that they had happened at all. He wrote to all and sundry and they called a meeting. He was left in no doubt that this meeting was about convincing him that these events never took place and he shouldn't ever mention them again.
He was expected to turn up to the meeting alone he took ten other Army mates with him, the Army wasn't happy at all. It sort of changed the way they understood the history was written. They requested that the men never speak of the issues again as they were secret. There were no changes made to their respective records.
Robyn, I thought it might be Sale, please ask your mum if she knew a Pilot Officer Eddy Humphris and a WAF Norma Kruska, my Parents in Law. They were both at Sale in WW2, Ed was seconded to the RAF in the UK and was a Pathfinder Pilot all over Europe.
Roger, good luck at the BL and yes I agree about the Index fellow being AEH, I will still research each British A Harrison officer listed for exclusion purposes.
Could I please ask you to jot down the Vitals of any man researched, so that I can use the info for exclusion purposes, just a half a dozen distinguishing facts, perhaps we should develop some rules or criteria....?
"Too many secrets"...!!
Cheers
Ian
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Ian,
I managed a chat with the expert at Kew today. He was sure that if there ever had been an actual list of men whose medals were withheld there was certainly no list still in existence at the National Archives. He also agreed that the officers' files that were weeded were almost certainly either men who were commissioned at the end of the war and who probably did not serve for very long or young men whose next of kin was their parents, and, again, did not have any great length of service. He also checked to see if anything relating to AEH's file [the WO338 long list one] had been kept. Apparently when the files were weeded a very small percentage had the correspondence relating to them retained - unfortunately his was not one of them.
I had a few moments at the end of the day and so I did a quick check on passenger lists from UK to Australia. [The expert suggested that just because a man left the UK as Joe Bloggs, he didn't necessarily arrive in Australia with the same name]. There were two that seemed possible:
Albert Edmund Harrison
Date of birth: 1888 [calculated from age]
Engineer
Sailed on P 7 O Ship "Barrabool"
Departed London 20th December 1924
Destination: Melbourne
[There were two other Harrisons on board - Frederick Leonard and Sidney]
More promising though was:
Mr Albert Harrison
Date of birth: 1887 [calculated from age]
Age 34
Apearist [sic]
Sailed on Aberdeen Line's Ship "Themistocles"
Departed 2nd July 1921 from London
Destination: Albany [King George Sound]
There was a Miss Marguerite Harrison on board,, but not seemingly travelling with him. He gave an address that looks like 26, Dalan Street, Nelson [that's in Lancashire] - In the column headed: "Country of Last Permanent Residence" he is ticked as "British Possessions"
I know that you've done some work on the passenger lists from your end - does the Albert above figure in you list?
Sorry I didn't have any more time - I'm working on a project which has a deadline - so time is at a premium.
jds1949
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I am pondering the reason why in his Australian War Record Albert Edward Harrison gives as his date of birth 28th of August 1876?
Also noted is that he served in South Africa for 2 years was this the Boer War? DO you have any records of this service?
His age is clearly 38 years and 6 months on the enlistment papers. Do you have other documntation which supports the 1888 year you are looking at as his year of birth? Certainly it would make him far too young to have served in South Africa.
The 86 page digital copy of his record is very clear and comprehensive and one symapthises with NOra's plight when he failed to return to Australia as expected.
It is possible that he instead of remaining in England he returned to South Africa and not to Australia.
just some thoughts
Robyn
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Robyn, Ian believes, and I and JDS concur, that it is more than likely AEH changed his year of birth when he went underground,so the age is likely to be inaccurate.Ian, Secrecy was the be all and end all of military life, and even beyond the military; when I worked on the railway, the timetables that we used for operational purposes were marked confidential, not for publication ( To an enemy working for the bus company I assume!)More seriously researching my late father's early life and military service of which I know very little, I discovered from a document in his possessions relating to the German's in WW2 that he may have been designated a "Stay behind", These were men who in the event of invasion had to stay where they were, go underground, and sabotage structures useful to the enemy, like in this case a rail bridge. I eventually contacted a man then aged 82 who as a boy had served with Dad in the same unit, and would have known. His answer to the question "I knew nothing about it, and it was all secret anyway". If he knew nothing how did he know it was secret?
Regarding the British Library, I had something of a failure. I was in London on some other business, and before that went to the Library. Showed my National Archives pass, which I found was invalid, so had to be photographed for a BL Pass luckily I had the required documents with me. Will try again when next in London, either 24th or 28th September, maybe both.
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hi
I agree that ther ages givine after his enlistment are most likley inaccurate s he was not young .
He does appear in the Boer War records as Albert Harrison from Victoria
Service number: 968
Rank: Corporal
Unit: 5 (MNTD RIFLES) CNTGNT
Conflict: South Africa, 1899-1902 (Boer War)
State: VIC
Source: Murray page number - 287
from http://www.awm.gov.au/research/people/nominal_rolls/pre_first_world_war/person.asp?p=455955
My mother looked at the WW1 attestation papers and commented that he must have had a wealthy background to have been at the South Melbourne College .
Her father attended Wesley College in that period and to recieve a matriculation was a great feat then.
She also commented that had he been inteligent and daring then he may well have been recruited into the secret serevice in Britian and the subsequent courtmarshall may well have been contrived by the powers that be to free him up for their purposes.
He was it seems quite an experienced and well educated soldier.
Robyn
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Wheels within wheels this is getting curiouser and curiouser!!!!
Dee
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With empty dossiers etc. etc. It just could be, or it could be another red herring.
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Please dont let this thread ever end as I am becoming addicted to it... Ian what have you started!!!
Dee
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Dear all,
on Friday at work I wrote a response to JDS, I kept being interupted by work (an imposition) so I was writing it in Word and saving in an off-site repository, whereupon to my suprise our IT folk shut down the remote site at Camberra. I will recover this file tonight after 20:00hrs...Grrrrr!
On Saturday I wrote to you both and again at work I was being interupted (another imposition) to such an extent that the Rootschat session ended taking my response with it.
I guess the rule should be don't work at work...!
I hope JDS's response is coming tonight, (at work) so, here is another regurgitation of the original to Roger and Robyn...sorry..!
Dear Robyn,
AEH was born to William and Catherine Harrison on the 28th August 1879,
at home in Brick St Richmond Victoria. He had nine siblings and another seven who had perished in infancy, childbirth or in their youth. He was one of the last kids and had siblings that were up to twenty years older than he. My grandfather who was born in 1875 and AEH were great mates and grew up together. His mum died at 56 years of age and left him without a mum at (c) 15 years. His dad was a lot older than Catherine and so a lot of his care went to his older sisters.
Yes, he definitely did serve in the Boer War and became a Sergent, he was the colour Sergent Major at South Melb Colledge in Cadets. He was in the 5th Victorian Mounted Rifles and I have previously mentioned his involvement during the Whilmshurst Affair on this Forum. Note: he says nothing of his previous service at his Courts Martial. I don't have his actual records, but have quite a lot of info about his service
The 1888 fellow in the WO338 index is possibly our AEH but there is the issue of his birthdate in the RH column being 1888, this is the average age of men who served in WW1 so there is lots in this area. Albert was old about 35 years of age I believe. The only reason we have taken a more intensive look at this fellow is that there doesn't appear to be another Albert Edward Harrison Officer in WW1 but the 1888 age is not correct, perhaps its a mistake. I do want to locate the original register of Officers book and view the ink spot and see if there is some way of uncovering what is beneath the smudge, to reveal this man's regiment.
Back to his age, Albert was very much like my Grandfather (I'm thinking Arthur Dailey the TV used car dealer) would describe them both pretty well, no flies on either of them, all the family was into the horses and perennial punters, all were very good at maths, my grandfather was a bookie and played cards and pool for money apart from his real job at JC Williamson the Australian Entrepreneur. Albert was many things but ultimately a Salesman and Traveller and I believe before he left for WW1 was Selling alcohol, we have recently discovered that he was bankrupt in Victoria and this is probably why he went to NSW in about 1908-1910. So the common thread for both my grandfather and AEH is women, money, horses, gambling. My grandfather had another woman on the side for 30 years she turned out to be my grandmother, two complete families. These two men were very fine looking fellows, were charismatic and bold, "Will-O-The-Wisp's" AEH 5'10'5" and my grandfather 6' both tall dark and handsome and both sportsmen.
The family is pretty sure he stayed in England and made another family, as for South Africa, I'm not sure I don't believe he would do that, he was a city boy living in Melbourne and then Sydney, he hankered for action on many fronts, so I'm thinking London would be his place of choice.
Sorry for the delay, hope this makes sense
Ian
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G'day Roger,
AEH changed his age when he married Nora, she was older than him by about three years and she didn't know this. He continued this into his Military career to continue the lie of age increase. This age increase with variants went into his GCM also. His right age is in his Boer war records and this is before Nora. When I was originally tracking AEH down these age differences kept putting me off the scent, but it is the same fellow all the way along
Interesting info regarding your dad and the "stay behinds" really interesting that these things are hidden behind the scenes. I'm an Amateur (Ham) Radio Operator, at the commencement of the last wars, all Hams would have to pack up their equipment and send it off to the Government, this happened in all countries, they were worried that the equipment could be used by spies or the station or operator used by spies, such as what also happened to Light house keepers and marine radio stations. However, there were some who kept their gear hidden with clandestine antenna systems, so, if everything Military and Government was taken or destroyed, word of it could be broadcast for help, these were also "stay behinds" albeit civilians but trusted specialists. Hams are still buried all over the world now and all of us are GOV licensed and know how to build and operate radio equipment. During the war years most of the Radio people searching for spies in England, or in the fighting fields were Hams or became Hams, these were the people who made the radio's in Concentration Camps and POW camps. And all already knew Morse Code, which was handy.
Bad luck at the BL, next time lets hope for less ID and more success...LOL, I'm sure its the same in the UK as it is in OZ, more ID is better than less according to the Gov. Everything is tracked, Event Recorders, Data-Bases on everything and all of them can intercommunicate together in the open systems approach to wide area networking "WAN" all the data-bases have common origins and if you haven't heard the term "data warehousing" then google it, all the government data bases can intercommunicate and be searched and interrogated in one location. Much of this is the result of 9/11. Since then I have to have a ASIO Secret ++ Clearance to do my job for the GOV. "Too Many Secrets".......!!!
I hope this all makes sense, it's the second version and I've lost the plot a bit..!!
Ian
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Dear Robyn again,
All the info you have regarding his Boer War Enlistment is correct, including his age at this stage.
He ended his time in the Boer War as a Sergent
He was being brought up by his siblings who did have money but he was a smarty and got a scholarship to South Melb Colledge, and then as we know Matriculated which was very unusual in those times in Australia, most kids left for work after year 8 and some year 10 if they were very lucky
Given that he had a history of money/women/gambling/grog, I think his Courts Martial was the real thing. Given that his estranged Australian family (Nora and Children) established that he had settled in the UK with another family, I believe that his disappearance was real and not contrived by the GOV or Military, but I could be wrong. Everywhere we go there is empty folders, ink smudges, missing record sequences...?
He was an experienced horseman, soldier and was a smartie, and probably a narcissist to boot. He'd been Militarised from year 6 at School in Cadets
Hope this helps
Ian
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Dear Dee, Robyn, Roger,
I've used the term "Curiouser and Curiouser" myself a few times, and ending it with an outcome would please me immensely. I'm enjoying the journey myself but the behind the scenes research work is becoming huge and complicated (not that I mind) I'm glad it's created so much interest, I hope he's worth it..!
Living in OZ and doing UK non on-line research in the UK is daunting and difficult and without the Forums and personal assistance this would die a natural death. The most interesting aspect is the acquisition of knowledge of these unusual aspects of spies, stay behinds, changed names, Government cover ups, unusual armies in Russia, men paid king's ransoms to fight hidden battles, missing records, and records intentionally destroyed, multiple families and mischief behind the scenes by men who should know better.
Things like all the records of WW1 Medical Officers missing, and all but a few of the really senior British Officers records missing, makes for really interesting discussion
Cheers
Ian
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I have to agree, it is making me really curioud.
Of course the real difficulty researching this is that by now almost certainly anyone who may have known about the events is dead.
There is also the fact that had he become involved in covert operations of any kind these would be under a 100 year closure and of course that time frame is yet to be met.
None of this speculation rules out the fact that he may have remained in England after the services and set up a second family.
I have an inherent mistrust of empty files in beaurocratic systems. The military are generally renowned for the meticulous nature of their record keeping. So empty folders are like a red flag , if the files were detroyed then one would expect that there should be no folder left. Perhaps the fact that the folder remains indicates that there is/was material to be reurned to it at some later date.
Robyn
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Robyn,
Regarding mising files:
I have some ripper correspondence from the Australian Archives and the Australian War Museum, The Sydney NSW PROV and the Australian Archives regarding the empty files, the file covers are there and apparently nothing in them or the GOV not releasing the contents to us....?
When we started doing this in OZ we did think that something was quite wrong, but there has always been a sensible explanation in the end.
It could just be bad luck and nothing clandestine at all.
And lets not talk about the British Files...!
I'll try to locate my DVA files tonight and post a summery ASAP
Cheers
Ian
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G'day JDS,
firstly, thank you for slotting in some AEH related enquiries at the NA today.
Regarding the existence (or not) of the Suspense List. It sounds like the NA Oracle has uttered the last word on this elusive document. As Colin has identified it's more than likely that at one time there probably was a list, but apparently it doesn't exist today...! thanks for confirming this.
Regarding the Officers files, which were weeded for the following reasons:-
1: They were commissioned at the end of the war
2: Who probably did not serve for very long
3: Young men whose next of kin was their parents, and, again, did not have any great length of service.
It doesn’t look too good does it? Based on your overview of the Oracle’s record weeding explanation, Its possible that we should drop any further research, it's apparently futile. Looking at things objectively I can see the logic in this perspective. Specifically all the researched AH's and AEH's have been rejected and we have recently deduced that he was using his real name and we presume that he was using all his initials or at least one of them
I've held the view for a while that although it appears in many ways to be a dead end there will be some evidence buried somewhere and it's possible that I have already seen it or it's just around the corner. Although quite a few records have been seen, there are equally as many A Harrison's yet to be reviewed for at least the aspect of rejection. It appears that In this case the normal order of research is not easily applied.
Regarding the WO338 AEH bloke, it does appear this fellow is a lost cause, particularly because his 1888 DOB is quite wrong. However, I will continue to look for the original Register and then seek to view the original page to perhaps interprate what is under the ink smudge.
The two ship travellers don't seem to fit the the known profile, both have significant age differences to AEH who was born in 1879 and their professions are quite different, AEH would normally put Traveller or Salesman in Civilian life. But I will add them to the list of possible returnees to Australia
Many thanks as usual for the time and trouble
Ian
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As promised I have reviewed the original research that I conducted in 2006 regarding records pertaining to pensions, Living Allowances, and have found some unresolved anomalies that I haven't addressed yet.
I am going over this info again, one of the serious issues that arose at the time was the Research Officer that was in charge of the investigation was mysteriously dismissed and another Officer was appointed
I'll have more info in the next few days
Ian
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Ian, Some years ago after my retirement I discovered that two of my last three jobs required a very high security clearance. I still wonder how I came to get them, specially the final job/
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Roger and All,
I understand your comments regarding the Security Clearance and Status bestowed upon you in your last job. It's a multi faceted issue and probably not for this thread, but certainly in a Civilian setting I often wonder about its efficacy and the true dynamics of the process. I note that the requirement for your's was unknown to you. Mine was very onerous, invasive and very, very, personal, It involved my entire family including the previous generation of mine my wife's and my previous wife's, including all our children and the lives of our entire extended families. My wife was born in Alexandria Egypt is part Italian and part French with grandparents from four different countries. I am a fifth generation Australian with English, Irish and Scottish heritage and this was researched with a fine toothed comb. My personal and family finances were investigated in detail. The enquiries didn't stop there.........
They just loved unearthing the fact that I had been convicted of contraveining the "Australian Wireless Telegraphy Act, Para 2 Sect 12 of 1957" in about 1971, I built a Radio Transmitter and it worked very well, but I was un-licensed, so considered a Pirate. A Commonwealth offence, the max penalty was 5 years hard labour. I was let off, but interestingly the record stuck for 30 years even though the Gov now uses the knowledge that I learn't during that period. I had better stop here.!...... Too Many Secrets....!
I've been building a list of Pension and DVA transmissions that has been really rewarding, it's old research now and yet in light of recent thoughts, born out of this thread, I have looked at it a bit differently than I had originally.
There is now, no doubt that Nora did receive a living allowance from the Australian Government. There had always been some doubt in my mind as AEH's pay cards contradicted some of the evidence and correspondence from the NAA, regarding the DVA's involvement.
I now believe that originally there was official resistance (in the normal Government way) to Nora receiving and War Gratuity or Living Allowance. But at some stage some very nice people at the DVA must have weakened and approved her request for help. Without the details (records) of her correspondence to the DVA, we might never know what was said or done
Conversely, I see no evidence that AEH ever made contact with the DVA regarding a pension for himself. (In Australia)
I do have a small index card that was found that definitely does say a "LA" Living Allowance for Nora Harrison, I will post this when I scan it
I will also post the list of correspondence when I scan it
Cheers
Ian
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So now another step forward,
It is indeed interesting that Nora received this allowance and of course the tangled thread now has at leat one end to tug that may help in winding the mystery.
(soory ab out the mixed metaphor)
Robyn
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I thought the Aussies love people who kick the trend... They probably loved bringing up your radio career because it amused them...
Keep going at teasing those loose ends. Whatever you find it will be worth it and he may have been a naughty lad but so is AEH...
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Interesting Ian, Still up for the Baluchistan unit toward the end of the month. Look for a pm.
Roger
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Dear all,
sorry to have been off the ball a bit, I've been pretty crook...! I have been doing some background co-tangent work on AEH without success, However.... the same can't be said of Roger.
Roger just went to the British Library searching for an Alec Harrison and he confirms that this isn't our man, however he has located a new contender- 2nd Lt A Harrison who enlisted in the 2nd Batt 21st Punjabis 29/08/1918 and was appointed on the 27/11/1918 Ex Cheshire RIA (provisional list)
The Enlistment date is the day after AEH was Discharged from the Australian Army in England, I'm thinking this is a coincidence.......!?
I think we're off on the hunt again
Cheers
Ian
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Next time I visit the British Library I will investigate further Ian. One of these co-incidences will be one too many. As I said in the p.m. there seem to have been a disproportionate number of ex AIF men enlisted in the Indian Army. Maybe this is AEH and he was one of them?
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Count me back in - I should make it to the NA in the next day or two and I'll see what I can find.
jds1949
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Fine John, But I found this fellow at the British Library.
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Roger,
just checked the NA website - and you are quite right - they don't have the Indian Army records. I shall await your findings with bated breath.
Good hunting,
jds1949
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Glad to see some more on this fascinating thread. Sorry to hear you have been unwell Ian. Hope it all goes away soon...
Dee
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The Indian Army list is to me at anyrate, weird; there is the normal Army List structure, and then a second and apparently subsidiary list comprised of people with Indian names only. They are surely officers or they wouldn't be in the Army List would they? I shall start a thread on the Military Thread.
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Thanks for the get well wishes, I'm a hell of a lot better NOW..! "Organic Solvent liver damage from 40 years back"
This new fellow does look promising, I know nothing of this Indian Campain, does anybody else know what, why, how, when,
Did this indian army fight in WW1 or was it an Army raised in India or Pakistan.....? was there a conflict in India or Pakistan?
What is the significance of Ex Cheshire RIA (Royal Indian Artillary) Provisional List? does this mean that he was oriinally in the Cheshire Batt...? how does the Cheshire name relate to the RIA, are they somehow interrelated?
What is the Provisional List?
Ian
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Ian,
see here for basics about Indian Army:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Army_(1895%E2%80%931947)
jds1949
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"Organic Solvent liver damage from 40 years back
Ian
I like it! Not heard that version before.
Dee
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I'm still lurking in the background :)
The link provided by jds1949 didn't work for me but I found this one which seems to fit in nicely with the timeframe, and the need to find extra men.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waziristan_campaign_1919%E2%80%931920
Colin
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Hi
I just came across this thread today. It has been interesting to see the 'other' side of the search. My grandfather and his cousin were Lithuanians who emigrated to Scotland the found they had either to join the British Forces during WW1 or be deported to Russia. They arrived in Archangel in 1917. Many men moved on and joined Russia 'white' units. Most failed to return to their families in Scotland. My grandfather and his cousin remained in the area and were recruited into the Slavo British Legion in the following spring when Maynard and his forces arrived. They were probably in the unit that mutinied although I believe only a small number of men, possibly Bolshevik prisoners who joined the group, but the legion was downgraded to a labour unit. The men returned home in the evacuation from Archangel.
It is a fascinating bit of history, information is had to find and I most certainly agree the fear of comunism was at the heart of it. I found the WhitePapers relating to the decision to deport the foreign men online at the National Archives website. They are described as Russian, regardless of origin.
I hope you find what you are looking for.
Frances
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Fascinating thread, I read all 37 pages of the story yesterday and then it went stone dead - I would love an ending! I wonder if Ian ever found his man? He doesn't seem to have been on since Aug last year.
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Fascinating thread, I read all 37 pages of the story yesterday and then it went stone dead - I would love an ending! I wonder if Ian ever found his man? He doesn't seem to have been on since Aug last year.
Glad this came back up. Was thinking bout it recently!
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Fascinating thread, I read all 37 pages of the story yesterday and then it went stone dead - I would love an ending! I wonder if Ian ever found his man? He doesn't seem to have been on since Aug last year.
Glad this came back up. Was thinking bout it recently!
Funnily enough so was I! Not heard from the initiator recently though wonder if he has anything else that we could possibly progress?
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Hi All
I have just finished reading this story absolutely fascinating as regards the originator he has not been on line since August last year, may be something to do with his illness
"sorry to have been off the ball a bit, I've been pretty crook"
"Organic Solvent liver damage from 40 years back"
Yours Aye
BruceL