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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Wexford => Topic started by: HODGKISS77 on Sunday 13 June 10 11:57 BST (UK)
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Hello,
Can anybody help me.
I am looking for any information on the following people....
Thomas Sutherland- Age 53 on '1911 Census'
Margaret Sutherland (His Wife)-Age 53 on '1911 Census'
Katie Sutherland (Their daughter)-Age 16 on '1911 Census'
According to the 1911 Census they where all living at The Harrow, Ballyhaddock, Co Wexford.
I am trying to find any info on them, such as Marriage, Birth, Death, their parents names, siblings, any family, anybody who think they may have descended from these people?
I know that the above also had a son William Sutherland/Sunderland and he was born c1890s. They could have also had othe children.
Anybody who think they can help then please reply here or send a private message, all replies will be answered.
Thank you for your time :)
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The place to start is a birth cert for Katie to establish Margaret's maiden name.
Is this the family on the census - Sutherland family (http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wexford/The_Harrow/Ballyhaddock/678229/) ?
see : Introduction to Irish Records (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html)
Have you found them on the 1901 census ? the other children may still be living at home at that time..
updated : this appears to be the same family in the same townland on the 1901 census : Sutherland Family (http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wexford/The_Harrow/Ballyhaddock/1789201/)
Thomas 41
Margret 40
William 12
Kate 6
Shane
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I've had a search through the BMD index, but cannot see any promising matches for either the births of Katie/Catherine or William in the area of Ballyhaddock or anywhere in Co. Wexford... also nothing that I see in the index for the marriage of Thomas in Wexford (assuming that's where they married).
Seeing neither Thomas nor Margaret could write I assume the marriage and possibly the births are recorded under some variation of the surname..
Shane
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Hiya,
Thank you for your reply to my post. I really aprreciate your help. I think the other variation of the name is ''Sunderland'', as my Grandmother was the child to Thomas & Margret Sutherlands only son William, and on her Birth cert it states her surname as Sunderland? Maybe the name ws mis-prenounced somwhere along the lines?
Any further help would be most appreciated. I would glady like to know more about this Sutherland/Sunderland side...
Ps: I am useless at trying to find Births, Marriages, Deaths, etc :(
Thanks Again.
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Was Just thinking, perhaps they didn't come from Co.Wexford? Perhaps they moved there at some point?
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The census records all give their place of birth as Wexford so that's likely were they were born.
Ballyhaddock is in Enniscorthy Poor Law Union and that would also be the name of the civil registration district.
Possible birth for William-
William SUNDERLAND April/June 1888 Enniscorth registration district volume 4 page 548.
Possible birth for Katie-
Kate Sunderland Jan./Mar.1895 Enniscorthy registration district volume 4 page 583
Two Thomas Sunderland marriages in same district- 1884 and 1886.
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(I see aghadowey has just posted most of the same details ... but I'll add the details I found )
Are those census returns I mentioned the correct ones ?
If so they state the were all born Co. Wexford.
Searching the BMD index for Sunderland instead of Sutherland does give a few possible matches in the right registration district for Ballyhaddock :
Name: Kate Sunderland
Registration District: Enniscorthy
Event Type: Birth
Quarter and Year: Jan - Mar 1895
Volume : 4 / Page : 583
Kate's year of birth works out as 1895 on both the 1901 and 1911 census. There are a couple of other Catherine Sunderlands birth in the area in 1892 , 1897.. but the 1895 one above is the best fit.
Based on the 1901 census William's year of birth works out at 1889, and there's a close match in the right area :
Name: William Sunderland
Registration District: Enniscorthy
Event Type: Birth
Quarter and Year: Apr - Jun 1888
Volume : 4 / page : 548
Birth certs would show parents names etc for these to confirm if in fact they are part of the Sutherland family listed on the census returns.
The marriage for Thomas and Margaret works out as about 1888 (based on 23 years married on the 1911 census) and there is a possible match that's quite close :
Name: Thomas Sunderland
Registration District: Enniscorthy
Event Type: Marriage
Quarter and Year: Jul - Sep 1886
Volume : 4 / Page : 266
The next closest by date is in 1884.
I cannot find a cross-match to a marriage for a Margaret with the same details to confirm this and give a possible maiden name (if indeed it's the correct marriage)..
Shane
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Hi all, the above messages caught my attention. I have Sunderland's in my family tree. All my Sunderlands originated from outside Gorey, Co. Wexford in a townland called Ballyscarton. However an ancestor Sunderland married into a family (and got the land !!) in Boolavogue, which is near the Harrow; in Co. Wexford. The Harrow would only be 2 miles from Boolavogue. They appear in the 1901 and 1911 census.
Gerard
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Hi
Are you still researching ?
Hi all, the above messages caught my attention. I have Sunderland's in my family tree. All my Sunderlands originated from outside Gorey, Co. Wexford in a townland called Ballyscarton. However an ancestor Sunderland married into a family (and got the land !!) in Boolavogue, which is near the Harrow; in Co. Wexford. The Harrow would only be 2 miles from Boolavogue. They appear in the 1901 and 1911 census.
Gerard
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Margaret Lacey and Thomas Sunderland 1886 ?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1886/10845/5959738.pdf
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Hi, sorry to gatecrash but does anyone on here know the Sunderlands from Ballinagrann, Ardamine? In the 1901 census they were listed as William and Margaret with 5 kids but I think its the generation before them that I'm looking for, more specifically my GG Grandmother, Mary Sunderland who married a James Murphy (probably in Gorey, 20th Nov 1864). Well, at least I think she is!! So far I've found 8 children but I was wondering if anyone could confirm this as one of them was my Great Granny Sarah Murphy (1869). There's just one problem, on Sarah's birthcert it says 'Michl' Murphy as the father but later, on Sarah's marriage certificate it says 'James' Murphy! They could of course be 2 or even 3 different families but I cant find a marriage cert for a Michael Murphy and Mary Sunderland/Sutherland anywhere. Any help on clearing this little mystery up would be very welcome! The other children's names were: Bridget (1865), Mary (1867), Michael (1875), Ellen (1877), James (1881), Margaret (1883) and Esther (1888) Murphy.
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P.S.
There was a Sarah Sunderland present at both Bridget and Mary's births and an aunt Mary Murphy at James'. Also, Michael Sunderland was listed as Mary Sunderland's father at the wedding to James.
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It might help us to help you if we knew who Sarah Murphy married
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Are these Baptisims you found?
I can see birth Certs for
Bridget 1865
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03554/2308664.pdf
And
Mary 1867
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1867/03499/2286297.pdf
Registered in Gorey but I can't see the rest.
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they moved to Dublin
Sarah 1869
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1869/03397/2246169.pdf
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So 2 children born in Wexford to James and Mary
1 in Dublin to Michael and Mary
I see Michael to James and Mary.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1875/03081/2129671.pdf
Is Sarah's baptisim online I wonder
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http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Whitechurch/Kilmashogue/1291378/
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There is a Mary Sunderland and a James Murphy on the same page in Gorey marriages in 1864, I can't check Family Search at the moment to see if they are a couple.
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Sinann It says Riverchapel Wexford but i cant find it on N L I reels
20th Nov 1864
both their father's are Michael
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1864 appears to be missing from the church register
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634011#page/1/mode/1up
Don't have time to scroll through it at the moment.
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Thanks everyone, so this is what I do know:
Mary Sunderland married James Murphy 1864
Name James Murphy
Event Type Marriage
Event Date 20 Nov 1864
Event Place Gorey, Gorey, County Wexford, Ireland
Event Place Gorey, Gorey, Ireland
Age 27
Birth Year (Estimated) 1837
Father's Name Michael Murphy
Spouse's Name Mary Sunderland
Spouse's Age 19
Spouse's Birth Year (Estimated) 1845
Spouse's Father's Name Michael Sunderland
Sarah Murphy (1869-1925) married Thomas Donnelly (1872-1946) in 1893 in Rathdfarnham and had 7 children, Joseph, Mary Emily, Marcella, Peter, James, Michael and Bridget. They lived in House 3 Kilmashogue, Whitechurch, Dublin. Sarah's parents were listed as James and Mary Murphy from Kilmashogue. Thomas's parents were Timothy and Mary Donnelly from Hollypark (but originally Wexford).
It says on the 1901 census that Sarah was born in Co. Wicklow which threw me off for a long time but I have since found on her birth cert it says Rathdown was in Co. Wicklow and not Co. Dublin so Im going with that one!
The Murphy children:
Bridget: Oct 2nd 1865 - James Murphy and Mary Sunderland from Ballinagrann, Gorey, Co. Wexford with Sarah Sunderland present at birth
Mary: March 29th 1867 - James Murphy and Mary Sunderland from (Glyn?), Gorey Co. Wexford with Sarah Sunderland (from Ballinagrann) present at birth.
Sarah: Jan 20th 1869 - Michl Murphy and Mary Sutherland* (notice name change) from Fiaserae? Rathdown, Co. Wicklow with Eliza Fuigan? from Bray Common present at birth
Michael: 17th Oct 1875 - James Murphy and Mary Sunderland from 'The Blind Lane', Kilmashogue bridge, Whitechurch, Rathfarnham
Ellen: 26th Nov - James Murphy and Mary Sutherland* (name change again) from Kilmashogue.
James: 11th April 1881 - James Murphy and Mary Sunderland from Kilmashogue with Aunt Mary Murphy present at birth
Margaret: 24th June 1883 - James Murphy and Mary Sunderland from Kilmashogue with Mary Murphy present
Esther: 28th March 1888 - James Murphy and Mary Southern* (they didn't even bother to finish her name this time!) from Kilmashogue
Sinann and Daithi: They are the birth certs that I found and yes it does like they moved around a bit but finally ended up in Kilmashogue. I guess they went where the work was, if it is indeed the same family?
I'll just post this before my computer crashes!
tbc!
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The image of James and Mary's marriage cert should be online soon which will say where they were living at the time, hopefully that will help get you back further.
Ideally finding Sarah's baptism would hopefully show her father as James.
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Number 629
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633397#page/44/mode/1up
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Sarah: Jan 20th 1869 - Michl Murphy and Mary Sutherland* (notice name change) from Fiaserae? Rathdown, Co. Wicklow with Eliza Fuigan? from Bray Common present at birth
From Sarah's baptism, the townland is Fassaroe.
https://www.townlands.ie/wicklow/rathdown/kilmacanoge/kilmacanoge/fassaroe/
KG
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yes, I see that now, thanks Sinann, that makes sense with Sarah saying she was from Co. Wicklow on the 1901 census. Im still confused though about the name 'Michl', do you think it might have been a clerical error and is 'Jacobi' latin for James? Also can anyone read who the witnesses were, I think I see, Patricia Timmons and Margaret Nolan??
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yes, I see that now, thanks Sinann, that makes sense with Sarah saying she was from Co. Wicklow on the 1901 census. Im still confused though about the name 'Michl', do you think it might have been a clerical error and is 'Jacobi' latin for James? Also can anyone read who the witnesses were, I think I see, Patricia Timmons and Margaret Nolan??
Mary Sunderland married James Murphy 1864
Name James Murphy
Event Type Marriage
Event Date 20 Nov 1864
Event Place Gorey, Gorey, County Wexford, Ireland
Event Place Gorey, Gorey, Ireland
Age 27
Birth Year (Estimated) 1837
Father's Name Michael Murphy
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The informant on Sarah's birth cert most likely got his name wrong, she was probably a mid wife as her address is Bray Common so may not have known them well, also she didn't register the birth until April so lots of time to mess it up.
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Patrick not Patricia, Latin for first names.
It very much depends on the priest what version of a name in Latin will be found.
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Well you can see the glaring mistake in her sister Catherine's marriage to Christopher Keane/Kane 1899
The priest has recorded Christopher Kane's father as Laurence Donnelly and Anne Higgins on both the church record and the civil cert
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1899/10371/5775973.pdf
Laurence Kane married Anne Higgins in 1860
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01nne/
Christopher was born 1865
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03586/2322162.pdf
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oops that should say Michael Keane/Kane
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The informant Eliza Finnigan on another birth
William Byrne
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1869/03397/2246171.pdf
so maybe a woman known for delivering babies rather that an official mid wife, I think they usually register a few together.
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Catherine also says Wicklow circa 1874
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rathfarnham/Rathfarnham/47711/
son James 1910
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1910/01561/1630405.pdf
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1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Tallagh/Ballyroan/1312191/
marriage number 926
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633454#page/74/mode/1up
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I was getting mixed up with this Christopher Morgan
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Whitechurch/Edmondstown/1291466/
1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Whitechurch/Edmondstown/50528/
marriage 1894 number 26
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1894/10562/5847714.pdf
marriage number 793
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633454#page/63/mode/1up
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looks like Mary Sunderland may have had her brother John Sunderland living with them in 1898 he was the son of Michael Sunderland and Sarah Brien from Ballinagran,Co Wexford
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1898/10418/5793289.pdf
marriage 910
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633454#page/72/mode/1up
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Ooh, you've beaten me to it and just solved another mystery (see below)!!
Thanks Sinann and Daithi, I guess there could have been a little bit too much red wine on the day but they certainly dont make it easy for us! That's interesting about Cathrine Murphy, I cant seem to find a birth cert for her but I'll have a proper look later. The funny thing is when I looked back again at the birth cert for James Keane I noticed that my Great Uncle, Peter Kelly was above them! Which is brilliant, because, I was just about to throw a spanner into the works, i.e. there is another Sunderland in the family tree! I wasn't sure if they were connected but I'm pretty certain now, thanks to you guys, you are wizards!! I'll try and explain,
Peter Kelly's parents were Peter Kelly and Mary Murray from Marlay, but Peter Kelly Snr was Mary Murray's second husband because she was previously married to a John Sunderland (1898) but John died a year later. Mary Murray (or Sunderland as the marriage cert says) then married Peter Kelly in 1903 in Rathfarnham.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1910/01561/1630405.pdf
I also noticed a Bridget Byrne from Ballyboden on the Catherine and Michael Keane marriage cert who may have previously been a Kelly as that's where some of them lived at that time.
Finally, it's all starting to come together! Thanks so much for all your help, this one was tricky! :)
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Ahh i was wondering why i could not find them 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Dalkey/Nerano_Road/1317193/
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yes, there's been quite a few ahh! moments on this particular side of the family, I hope the other side's a bit easier! Also I just realised the Bridget Byrne was probably Catherine's sister, Bridget.
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I presume you have Ellen
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Clondalkin/Romanstown/1283202/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rathfarnham/Rathfarnham/47649/
married 1899
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1899/10399/5786460.pdf
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No I hadn’t actually, thanks so much for all your help. I’ll sleep better tonight! :)