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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: bombog on Friday 11 June 10 22:39 BST (UK)
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Good afternoon,
I'm looking for any info on my great-great grandparents, William Haines and Maria (or Mary Ann) Mansfield.
The only lead-in information I have on them is that their son William Robert Haines was born Dec. 29, 1851 and christened Feb. 29, 1852 at St Mary Whitechapel, Stepney, London. So I would imagine that that might narrow down the search a tad.
I would also like to know if William Robert Haines had any siblings.
Thanks much,
Jack Haines
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This entry does not show him as William Robert nor does it show his mother as Maria
WILLIAM HAINES Birth: 29 DEC 1851
Christening: 29 FEB 1852 St Mary Whitechapel, Stepney
Father: WILLIAM HAINES Mother: MARY ANN
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There is no Haines/Mansfield marriage on freebmd or the IGI
I know from your previous post that William was 25 when he married in Scotland in 1877 but there is no birth reg on freebmd
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Jack
Are you sure Mary Ann's maiden name was Mansfield?
St Mary Whitechapel
1852 Feb 29, William, s/o William & Mary Ann HAINES, Brick Lane, Pastry Cook, born 1851 Dec 29
There is this marriage
St Mark's Whitechapel
1850 Dec 9
William HAINES, full age, bachelor, Confectioner, abode 8 Brick Lane, father James Haines, Hay salesman
Mary Ann CLARK, minor, spinster, -, abode 77 Leman St, father Thomas Clark, Painter
Married after Banns
Both signed in presence of Charles Roach, Susannah Cook (her mark)
1861
5 Era Place, Bromley, Tower Hamlets
William HAINES, head mar 36, Fruiterer, born Middlesex, Shoreditch
Mary A HAINES, wife mar 29, born ditto
William HAINES, son 9, Scholar, born Middlesex, Whitechapel
Frederick G HAINES, son 3, Scholar, born Middlesex, Bromley
Edward HAINES, son 7, Scholar, born ditto
Anna STAMP, servant unbm 15, General servant, born Durham, Sunderland
RG9/300/44/10
St Anne Limehouse
1854 Apr 9, Edward, s/o William & Mary Ann HAINES, Bromley Terrace, Confectioner, born 1853 Dec 11
1858 Apr 25, Frederick George, s/o William & Mary Ann HAINES, St Leonards Road, Pastry Cook, born 1858 Apr 1
1862 Feb 9, James, s/o William & Mary Ann HAINES, St Leonards Road, Green grocer, born 1861 Dec 13
1864 Aug 22, Annie, d/o William & Mary Ann HAINES, 5 Era Place St Leonards Road, Green grocer, born 1864 Jun 30
Ian C
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Hi Eyesee
The info re: his parents came from his Scottish 1977 marriage cert
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,461391.msg3223809.html#msg3223809
I very much doubt that the IGI entry is the same one
Looking at the Marriage Registration and I note that the marriage took place
St. James Church (Episcopal - Anglican) but in 1877.
Both the groom and bride were 25
He was a labourer and she a Laundress
His parents were William Haines, Joiner/ Maria Mansfield
Her parents were John McKenzie, Flour Miller (deceased)/Mary Doull
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From FreeBMD
William HAINES, Mar qtr 1852, Whitechapel, 1c 364
Ian C
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The 1852 baptism entry shows father as a pastry cook - the 1877 marriage entry shows him as a joiner
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Thanks so much, Ian and Carole, for your quick replies.
I have no reason to doubt that my great-great grandmother's last name was Mansfield, but I will verify this with my aunt.
Regards,
Jack Haines
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Hi
I'm sure she was nee Mansfield but there is no evidence in England to support that as we cannot find a marriage between William Haines and Maria Mansfield
There is no William Robert Haines birth in England that matches to his age when he married
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Hi, Carole,
How do I send you a personal message? I believe you sent one to me in error.
Jack
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I have more information on my great-grandparents and their parents from documents received today from the Anglican Diocese of Montreal, Quebec, and I was wondering if someone might be able to clear up any discrepancies.
From parish records, WILLIAM ROBERT HAINES, my great-grandfather, was born on Aug. 2, 1852—not Dec. 29, 1851, as previously posted, so he couldn't have been christened on Feb. 29, 1852, at St. Mary Whitechapel, Stepney, London.
WILLIAM ROBERT HAINES' father and mother were WILLIAM HOPKINS HAINES and MARIA ANN MANSFIELD, and, according to the extract, WILLIAM ROBERT HAINES was from Blakeney, Norfolk, England.
This is in agreement with the information long thought, but never confirmed (because one of our relatives absconded with the family bible), that (1) our family name HAINES was Anglicized, (2) our origin was either Dutch or German—our name might have been HAINS, instead, (3) we immigrated to England sometime in the 16th century, and (4) the churchyard/cemetery of Saint Nicholas Church in Blakeney may be the resting place of our ancestors.
Have a good day, dear people,
Jack
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On Free BMD there is a marriage in Sept Quarter 1851 Walsingham 13 - 493 of a Maria Ann Mansfield. The only groom's name given is a William Hines.
Hopefully this is what you are looking for, with a simple mistake in the surname.
Regards,
Lesley
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Following on - a birth of a William Robert Hines Sept Quarter 1852 Walsingham 4b - 279
Lesley
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Thank you, Lesley,
but I have no way of confirming if that is correct or not.
I'm not familiar with the term "Sept Quarter." Could you explain it, please.
Thanks,
Jack
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Hi Jack
I'm not familiar with the term "Sept Quarter." Could you explain it, please.
English and Welsh births are registered in the 4 quarters of the year - March/June/September/December
Births registered 1st Jan - 31st March = March qtr
1st April - 30th June = June qtr
1st July - 30th September = September qtr
1st October - 31st December = December qtr
That does not necessarily mean that the actual birth was between those dates (eg) if a child was born on the 28th December 1870, the parents had approx 6wks in which to register the birth. Given the Christmas period etc - the birth would only be registered in January 1871 so would be found in the March qtr 1871
Your William was born 2.8.1852 so his birth would be registered in the September qtr of 1852
but I have no way of confirming if that is correct or not.
Haines and Hines - what has to be taken into account is that the levels of illiteracy in those days were very high so quite often names were written by officials as they were pronounced.
There would have been a Norfolk accent involved in all probability and depending on the strength of the dialect - that would account for the slightly different spelling
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The 1851 census has a Maria Mansfield aged 18 b Blakeney Norfolk who were living in the Walsingham registration district of Norfolk.
All b Blakeney
Sarah Mansfield 43 mariners wife
Maria 18
Betsy 16
William 9
Sarah Ann 3
HO107 Piece 1826 Folio 539 Page 28
This is the family in 1841 - all shown as born in county (ie) Norfolk
Robert Mansfield 40 mariner
Sarah 33
Robert 11
Maria 9
Betsy 6
William Bishop 19
HO107 Piece 776/21 Folio 15 Page 24
If you purchase a copy of the 1851 marriage cert - it will give you the name of Maria's father. If it's Robert - occ mariner then the above entries are the right family. If not - back to the drawing board.
However - as William & Maria named their son William Robert - I think it's probably the right entry
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WILLIAM ROBERT HAINES' father and mother were WILLIAM HOPKINS HAINES
You need to bear this IGI entry in mind when you get that 1851 marriage cert
WILLIAM HOPSON HAYNES Birth: 04 DEC 1831
Christening: 18 AUG 1834 Saint Phillips, Birmingham, Warwick
Father: HOPSON HAYNES Mother: BETSEY
EDIT - 1851 marriage cert shows father as William
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Hi, Carole,
Good to hear from you . . . and thanks for the explanation. It makes a lot of sense.
Thank you both,
Jack
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If you go to the Pilotsearch part of the Familysearch website and look for the Norfolk PRs that are available there, you will find the marriage of William HINES and Maria Ann MANSFIELD at Blakeney 23 Sep 1851 - Blakeney marriages 1837-1901 image 65
http://pilot.familysearch.org/
These are actual scans of the original registers not transcripts. You might find William Robert's baptism as well.
Ian C
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Thank you very much, Ian . . .
but I feel so klutzy: I tried typing in Haines, Hines, Mansfield, Maria, etc. and did the refined searches—but came up with nothing.
I'm amazed how you and others can find this info so easily.
If it wouldn't be too much trouble, would you mind telling me what stats you typed in to get this info you've given me.
Thanks much,
Jack
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You will not find anything from searching as the images are browse only.
When you are on the opening page do not put any names in the search box, but click on the Search or browse our record collections link under the search box. That will bring up a map of the world, with links to the various areas. Select Europe.
You should then have a list of the various collections they have from Europe. Scroll down to the bottom to United Kingdom, and there will be an option for England, Norfolk Parish registers. Click on that.
On the left of the screen will appear the list of the Norfolk Parishes, just scroll down those until you get to Blakeney, and click on that. Then in the centre there will be a list of what is available, baptisms, burials, marriages, etc. Click on the Marriages option at the bottom.
On the right side will appear a list of the years available. Select 1837-1901, which will open up a line under it that says View Images. Clicking on that will open up a black viewing window under with image 1 eventually loading in it, which is the register cover.
At the top right of that it will have Image 1 of 178. Select the 1 in the box and type in 65, then hit Enter and your image will appear. You can save it to your computer then if you want to as well.
Hope that helps. As I said earlier the Norfolk PRs are not indexed and you can only browse through the images.
Ian C
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23.9.1851 - Parish Church Blakeney
William Hines full age bachelor occ carpenter father William occ Carpenter
Maria Ann Mansfield 19 spinster father Robert occ sailor
Both signed register with full signatures
Witnesses Betsy Mansfield and John Robinson
Both signed register with full signatures
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Thank you, Ian and Carole . . .
for all your help. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.
Ian, I browsed, as you instructed, and found Maria's family. I also looked to see if William Hines (Haines) and son William Robert Haines were both born in Blakeney, and didn't find anything. So that leads me to believe that William Hines and his son were born elsewhere.
Although I've not checked all the birth records in the Blakeye-Norfolk section, from what I've seen so far, no Haines are on written on the pages.
I've just re-read the burial registry for William Robert Haines from the Anglican Diocese of Montreal, and I see that it's only his mother who's from Blakeney, as it is written: "William Robert, son of William Hopkins Haines and of Maria Ann Mansfield of Blakeney, Norfolk ...." There is no comma after Mansfield.
Carole, I'll look into trying to get a copy of the marriage certificate.
Until then, the search continues . . .
Good day to you both,
Jack
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Jack
If you were able to see the image, then you should not need to get a copy of the marriage cert from the GRO, as the info will be exactly the same. The image is the actual signed church register, whereas the cert from the GRO is a copy.
Ian C
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Oh, I see, Ian. Thank you. You've just saved me some money.
Have a GREAT day!
Jack
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Good morning, Everyone,
From the enclosed certificate, below, would anyone know offhand the name of the Blakeney church shown: No. 127—William Hines and Maria Ann Mansfield. The church in doesn't appear to be Anglican.
Thank you,
Jack
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Following my previous post, here's a closeup of the name of the church:
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Someone else may correct me, but it is an Anglican Church. The Established Church is the Church of England, or Anglican.
If you have a look here, about two thirds the way down the page, there are some photos.
http://www.tournorfolk.co.uk/blakeney.html
Ian C
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Thank you, Ian,
You're correct.
When I went to the Church of England's Web site and typed in Blakeney "To find a church near you," only two came up: All Saints' and St Nicholas.
I mistook the name of the church, thinking it may be another one, but now I see it reads "Established."
Jack
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Good day,
I'm wondering if anyone can help me find a date of birth and place for WILLIAM HOPKINS HAINES, who might've also been called WILLIAM HINES, of Walsingham, who married Maria Ann Mansfield, of Blakeney, on Sept 23, 1851.
I've exhausted all resources and now defer to people more experienced in genealogical research than I.
Thank you in advance,
Jack Haines
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Good afternoon, Leslie and Carole,
Yes, Leslie, it appears that William Robert Hines and William Robert Haines are one in the same, for William Hines married Maria Ann Mansfield.
Now, I'm wondering if you could help me with a small snag I've run into: is it possible to verify if William Robert Hines (Haines)'s father was also called William Hines, who was baptrized/christened on Nov. 15, 1824.
If so, then William Hines's father would be William Hopkin Hines, who was baptized christened on Nov 10, 1791; and his father would be Joseph Hinds (note the change in spelling: Hinds, not Hines), who married Frances Hopkin on May 22, 1788.
Here's what I've been able to piece together from my searches:
Joseph Hinds and Frances Hopkin's children and their baptismal/christening dates:
Mary Hinds—June 28, 1789
William Hopkin Hines—Nov. 10, 1791
John Hines— April 9, 1794
Thomas Hines—April 7, 1796
Joseph Hines—Oct. 6, 1799
Robert Hines—March 1802
Betty Hines—Oct. 12, 1803
Emma Hines—Oct. 3, 1824
John Hines—July 2, 1826
Susan Hines—March 2, 1828
Joel Hines—Sept. 20, 1829
All the family came from Outwell, Norfolk.
Thank you.
Season's Greetings!
Jack