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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Kent => Topic started by: Susierose on Tuesday 08 June 10 20:24 BST (UK)
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I'm having trouble locating Emma Larkins Norris, born 13 July 1856 in Deal, Kent, to parents William George Norris and Sarah Norris, formerly Marsh.
I have her in the 1861 and 1871 Census, living with parents and siblings. I have found an "Emma Morris" living as a domestic servant with George & Jane Morris and their sons in the 1881 Census. I believe the surname is a mis-transcription - William George Norris had a brother George Norris and dates/places of birth fit (but I may be wrong!).
I can't find Emma Larkins Norris in the 1891 Census. There is a marriage for an Emma Larking (mis-spelt?) Norris and James Willie Greenwood on 19 September 1891, but where was she before the marriage? My family knows "my" Emma Larkins Norris was married to James William Greenwood, but the marriage certificate says he was a Labourer, whereas my family say he was in the Grenadier Guards, so I'm not 100% sure this is the right person.
Any help anyone can offer would be much appreciated!
Thank you
Sue
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You say when the 1891 marriage was, yet not where, nor than names of the witnesses?
Pauline
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Sorry - I'm quite new to this!
The marriage was in Armley Church, Parish of Leeds, County of York. Groom was living in Armley, bride at Kingston-on-Soar (Leicestershire?)
Witnesses were Thomas Eccleshall and Eliz. Hansford (neither of who appear in my tree at the moment).
Groom's father was George Greenwood, wheelwright and bride's father William George Norris, also a wheelwright.
Sue
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Hi
I wondered if anyone could help me with this earlier question?
Thank you
Sue
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Sue
After digging around, I think I can help you.
First, on your comment "My family knows "my" Emma Larkins Norris was married to James William Greenwood, but the marriage certificate says he was a Labourer, whereas my family say he was in the Grenadier Guards, so I'm not 100% sure this is the right person."
In such cases ALWAYS look at the facts first, and family memories second. In my experience such recollections are wonderful starting points, but all too often a little "inaccurate" for all sorts of reasons! In this case you have "Larking" vs "Larkins"; "Willie" vs "William" and "Labourer" vs "Guardsman". The first two are just straightforward spelling differences. Remember that literacy was incredibly low in those times. The last tells you very little. Its entirely possible James was both. Why assume he had the same career for his whole life?
Interestingly, on the 1901 census, Emma is in Loughborough (with 5 children), but no James. She is described as "Wife" (Not "Head"), and married. Perhaps thats when James was away in the Guards? But I am guessing , of course.
I then checked the 1911 census, to find where James was born in case thta helped find Emma in 1891. It gives his place of birth as Lincoln.
Then I started looking again at 1891. Found her (95% sure) on Ref RG12; Piece: 2719; Folio 143; Page 1.
She is names as Emma NORRIS, a "visitor" at Station House, Kingstone, Nottinghamshire. Four things convince me it is the right person:
1 - the name (it is irrelevant that her middle name is missing)
2 - her age (31) indicates the right approximate date of birth
3 - Place of birth is Deal
4 - most interesting. Another "visitor' in that house is an Elizabeth GREENWOOD, widow, age 90, born Loughborough, Lincolnshire - James' mother perhaps???
Nigel
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Nigel
I would really like this to be the right person. Strangely, it is only about 2 miles up the road from where I live! My only doubt is the date of birth - Emma Larkins Norris was born in 1856 (I have her birth certificate) and she has been truthful on other census returns.
Certainly the fact that Elizabeth Greenwood lives in the house sounds good, doesn't it? Loughborough is in Leicestershire, and I'm wondering if the place of birth for Elizabeth has been mis-transcribed, but I'm not too worried about that at the moment.
I will now see if I can find James William/Willie Greenwood as a younger man living with his parents.
I appreciate what you say about taking the facts above family memories, and I do try to do this, I know stories can get altered as they are passed down (Chinese whispers!). I have been swayed a bit by the fact that the person who said JWG was in the Grenadier Guards (and then joined Birmingham Police Force, where he was known as "Long Tom" can you believe!) is their grandaughter and knew them whilst they were alive.
Thank you very much for your help.
Sue
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Sue, I'd be amazed if it wasn't the same people. But try following it back from known facts.
You have good details of their grand-daughter, obviously. Who were her parents? Does one of them fit these census details:
On the 1911 census you have:
James Greenwood, 48, born Lincoln. Occupation "Caretaker, church substitute"
Emma Greenwood, 52, born Deal, Kent. Married 20 years, 5 children, all living
James Greenwood, 17, born Leeds
Emma Greenwood, 14, born Loughborough
Dolly Greenwood, 11, born Loughborough
On the 1901 you have:
Emma Greenwood 44, born Deal, Kent
Lily Greenwood 8, born Leeds
James Greenwood 6, born Leeds
Leonard Greenwood 5, born Loughborough
Victoria Greenwood 4, born Loughborough
Dorothy Greenwood 1, born Loughborough
I would guess that "Dolly" and "Dorothy" are the same person, and I see a birth registration in 1897, Loughborough, for "Victoria Emma GREENWOOD, so thats the same person as well.
Already you have two different birth dates here for Emma - 1857 and 1859. It just seems likely that she was a bit 'vague' about her age. I know a lot of women like that :-)))
Its actually a VERY common problem with census records.
Nigel
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Hello,
As I see it the 1891, Elizabeth Greenwood isn't a visitor in the house. The couple are Cross (transcribed as Coors) and Robert Cross married Elizabeth Greenwood in 1881. They are both 60 yrs so perhaps Elizabeth, 90yrs is mother in law?
They are living around Kingston upon Soar which fits with your marriage.
I'd say Nigel is on the right track there.
best wishes
heywood
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1871 RG10; Piece: 3377; Folio: 34; Page: 7
Village Owmby Lincoln
George Greenwood 80 yrs Late Farm Labourer b Kirkby
Elizabeth Greenwood 68 yrs b Thorsby (?)
James Wille Greenwood grandson 8 yrs b Lincoln
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James Willie GREENWOOD - birth Jun 1862 GREENWOOD James Willie Lincoln 7a 458
1881 census - RG11; Piece: 3149; Folio: 57; Page: 7 (probably). name is William James GREENWOOD, but place and date of birth are correct. He is a groom in a Manor House in Normanton-on-Soar, which I suspect is close to Kingstone-on-Soar.
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There is a George Greenwood b 1835 Owmby in 1851 and 1861 who is a Waggoner and Carter.
He then is possibly in 1871 and later censuses married to Nancy and living in Rochdale. I haven't posted the references as I think you have access to check all this Sue and it is still a bit tenuous.
The birth certificate will tell you the parents details anyway.
best wishes
heywood
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Heywood
I think its better than tenuous. That same George is 6 in 1841, in Owmby, with parents George and Elizabeth - the same two that James William is living with in 1871.
Nigel
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That's the one I didn't checkbut I came to that conclusion :D
Just not sure if he is the father or James Willie :-\
If he's the right chap, Nancy wouldn't be the mother- she has a young son of her own... so... ???
Anyway I'm off to bed - beauty sleep needed ;D
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Nigel and Heywood
Well, what can I say?! Thank you so much for all this information! I had ony gone back on Emma Larkins Norris's side of the family, as I kept finding so many Greenwoods, with all the males sharing a total of about 3 first names - very confusing. I'm ashamed to say I gave up.
Nigel - your information about the 1891 was really enlightening as I hadn't found Emma anywhere on FindMyPast, despite trying various spelling permutations. I have the 1901 and 1911 and you are spot on with your comments (Dolly was Dorothy and Emma on the 1911 was in fact Victoria Emma, my paternal grandmother).
I've got lots more now to follow up on FindMyPast when England play their next match!
Many, many thanks for your help.
Sue
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that's great :D
good luck
heywood