RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: greyingrey on Monday 07 June 10 19:41 BST (UK)
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I know that certain parts of Liverpool attracted a lot of immigrants of German origin in the nineteenth century, but I was wondering if anyone knows if those communities also attracted people of German origin who had been living in Britain for a while. I've got a family who had been living in Leicester since 1800 (can't trace back before them) & a member of the family moved to Toxteth in the 1870s (he did return after a few years) I have suspected that the family had German origins,.....they have the same name as other families in the Leicester area with definite German origins....although I haven't found proof of a connection....but it may just be that he went up there for another reason.
Is there any literature on this topic ?
Thanks
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Hi Greyingrey,
My Zimmer ancestors came to Liverpool from Germany in the late 1840's, like many others to work in the sugar refining trade.
They seem to have spent the next 50 yrs living in the St Anne Street/Richmond Row area.
Associated surname Lottig.
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Hello, Finbar
Thanks for your reply....yes, my Dreher (anglicised to Dryer) ancestors came over in the late 1860s/beginning of the 1870s. My Christian Dreher/Dryer was a cabinet maker, but they were living in the area associated with the sugar refining plant, so I suspect some of the family were working there.....I know it relied heavily on German immigrant labour (it was a kind of spin off of the German dominated sugar baking trade in London) & I also have a friend whose husband's German ancestors worked there.
But, what I'm wondering is whether the fact that there was a German community there attracted people with German roots whose families had been living in Britain for a little while. This is really for a friend....she can trace her family in Leicester back to 1800 but no further. They have the same surname as other families in the area who we know came from Germany., but she has no other indication that they could have German roots. A member of her family (a carpenter) moved to Toxteth in the 1870s....he took his wife & family with him. It could have been for any reason, of course.....I was just wondering if there was any evidence that there could be a connection
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Hi Greyingrey.
Although the nucleus of my family remained in Liverpool (my gt gt grandparents), many of their children moved further afield - all to either the Bury area of Lancashire, or the Leeds area of Yorkshire, which does seem to suggest movement in between communities.
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Yes.....I don't know what's happened to the bulk of my family who were there (I know it was a "whole" family....not just a a couple of young men), but I know one branch moved down to Nottingham....I don't know why because my mother remembers family visits, so there wasn't a big argument & the Dreher/Dryer concerned married someone who had been living in London (she & her parents moved up to Liverpool), so that wasn't the reason). Because Dryer is a common British Lancashire name (more especially in Manchester) it would be hard to sort them out now
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My German ancestor was Maria Katharina Albach born Burkhardsfelden, Germany on 7/1/1848. The family settled in Grimsby in 1853. She married Charles Atkinson in Oldham in 1873 under the name Mary Albridge and eventually settled in Everton, Liverpool in the 1880s. She died on the 26th May 1910.
C
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Hiya....my gg grandfather was from Heligoland which was British from 1807 until 1896 and then became German..I have found this link very interesting
http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/merseysidealiens/
although it only covers 1878 to 1912 it may give some info for you....allan ;)
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Hi
My gg Grandfather John Frederick Behn came from foreign parts according to 1841 census I think Germany maybe Hanover area and he worked as a sugar refiner in Liverpool and married Alice Pattison.
I haven't been able to obtain further information regarding his german past although have joined a German forum.
Judy
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Judy/tilly
I know another British person who is trying to find out about a German ancestor from Hannover, though not with any connection to Liverpool & I'm meeting up with a British friend tonight whose husband's ancestors were from Hannover & worked in the sugar place at Liverpool & she's successfully traced his family....I'll ask her if she's got any particular tips. My lot were from Berlin.....haven't started looking at them yet. Probably stuff you've already done/thought of, but no harm asking. Have you tried the archives in Hannover ? Just asking, because my other friend may be doing this soon & , if you have, it would be interesting to know how you got on
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Hi
Are the archives for Hannover online? I haven't investigated this or is it a matter of visiting Germany
Judy
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Sometime in the next 2 or 3 weeks, I'm going to do the Ancestry free trial, so, if you give me all the details you've got (approx age etc), I'll have a look (will be looking for my friend's ancestor). From what I can gather, there's not much on the German Ancestry site...for example, they don't offer a year's subscription because there's not enough to keep you occupied for that long (!) & there's not much German stuff online in general. The way to do it (this is what I've gathered from people like Berlin Bob) is to apply to the relevant German archive.....helps if you can find them on a shipping list to Britain first, though, as you may get an idea of where they come from,,,or you could end up paying archives to do searches when they didn't come from that area at all. What makes you think he was from Hannover ?
My friend thinks her ancestor came over to Britain as part of the household of Caroline of Brunswick, so she was told that the relevant archive in Germany was the one holding the records of that royal family....however, nothing has turned up there (I think they charged her 17/19 Euros to do the search), so they've advised her to try the normal Hannover archive. They like you to send an email, but I've phoned for her first to find out the best address to send it too etc etc.....I'm quite happy to phone for people....I live in Germany & have a telephone flat rate ....or I can translate either the emails you get or write the ones you send, if you like. The archives usually have people who speak English, but, if it's in German, they can't say there have been any misunderstandings. We have certain reservations about the way she's been treated by Caroline's family archive.....we may be wrong, but it seemed a bit slapdash....I chased them on the phone & we got the impression it had been lying in a corner & she thinks they may have been looking at the wrong household. An email has been sent, putting her points to them, but the chap who dealt with it is on holiday...so we'll see what happens.
This is the only foray into German archives that I've been involved with...so I don't know what the general standard is like (you could ask on the relevant board) ....I've only had direct dealings with one archive in Britain & experienced people have said to me that they get the impression they've been messing me around....I guess there are good & bad archives....I've got to try Somerset archives next & I've been told by 2 people that they're very good (if there are going to be any archives left after the Budget)
Anyway, if you'd like me to make any enquiries in Germany for you, just ask here or via a private message
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Having said there's not much online, you can strike lucky, but it's very difficult if you don't know the area they came from (also helps to know the religion). Sorry,....if you're on a German forum, your German is probably very good....maybe you could tell me what the forum is, as it might help me....I've also got a line where I only have "born in Germany"
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Hello tilly/judy & anyone else who might be interested in this.......Google Sugar Refiners & Sugarbakers & you should get a link to a database with a list of refiners/bakers split alphabetically....your John Frederick is there in Liverpool on the 1841 census & that might be his daughter's birth there, too (he's just listed as John there) There are also a Jürgen & a JJ there, listed as resident in Hamburg......so maybe your John Frederick's origins lie there rather than Hannover ?.
My friend was a member of the Anglo German Family History Society for a short while & they sent her a copy of work done by someone (she thinks the name was Len Metzner) A German church was established serving this German community in Liverpool (you can google to get further information) & Metzner transcribed all the records. She suggests you email the Anglo German Family History Society & tell them what you're after & see what they come back with.
Hope this helps....can't take credit for any of this...it has just been passed on to me
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As I've said, my German born g grandfather in Liverpool was a Dreyer (a cabinet maker)....loads of them on this list, but they seem to come from Hannover, whereas his place of birth on the census records is Berlin. Berlin seems probable because he was an inveterate gambler & used to ask his wife for money. (his English was very poor all his life)...so much so, that his daughter (my grandmother's) only knowledge of German was the equivalent of "Have you got any money ?" As my husband is German, my grandmother used to repeat this story very often & he said she said it in a very strong Berlin accent
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Hi
I found out that John Frederick Behn born approx 1795 (from 1841 census) came from Hanover as a distant relative said that her mother told her that the family originated from Hanover. He married Alice Pattison in Feb 1825 in Liverpool
I went on the european part of rootschat and Berlinbob put me in touch with a german forum that he then translated for me. (forum sur Ahnenforschung)
To date I haven't had any response
I don't know what religion John Frederick was as the family were baptised in St Peters, Liverpool and there is an anglican and RC Church of this name, but the next generation were baptised in st Michael Aughton which was anglican but of course this could come from the wifes side of the family
I did see the sugar refiners list but that hasn't really helped me progress, I have really hit a brick wall trying to delve further into the german side, I look at the lists of people coming into the country at Kew and unfortunately they are all after the date of the marriage and few have the full name recorded, mainly just Behn
Judy
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Well, my ancestor has put place of birth as Berlin on some records & Hannover on others.....
The only thing I can suggest is to pay for a search at either the Hannover or Hamburg archive.....whichever you think is the most likely.....& see if they have anything. Let me know if you'd like me to phone them to get an idea of how much it would cost
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Hi
If its not to much trouble could you find out the cost of searching in the archive
Many thanks
Judy
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No problem tilly/judy.....I'll give them a ring.....if the cost sounds OK to you, though, I'll formulate (if you like) an email for you to send about it, so that they can then confirm it in writing....wouldn't want there to be any misunderstandings
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Hi , i am trying to find details of ancestor of John Kuck ( which later changed to Cooke and then Cook) sugar baker I have a birthdate of 1810 Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany then moved to London then Lancashire his father is listed as Gerdt Kuck farmer - germany - have found John on Sugar data base he married Jane Howard and then a Harriet Trower also a sugar baker and his daughter a sugar baker who married a Henry Cook a sugar baker born 1839 Hanover - can anyone give me any tips as were to look for this next generation as I have had no luck for either Henry or Gerdt and my German is rubbish - though I have a friend who will translate any paperwork once I have found it :) ---- all help appreciated - got quite interested in the sugar bakers now :)
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Hello topsy,
Wish I could give you great, encouraging news, but I'm afraid I can't. I'm in the same position with my Dreher (later Dryer) family. I'm in Germany & I have a British friend who's in the same position with her husband's family, although she has managed to trace them on the shipping lists. Both our families were from Hanover (which then covered a very big area...not just today's city) & NRW is very big too. That means you could ask their archives to search their church records for you, but there are several thousands of churches involved. If you're very lucky, they might find your family quickly, but it could cost you a fortune & you still might not be able to find them (you can say to them, for example, "Do me 50 Euros worth of searching")
I think the first thing to do is to try to find them on the shipping lists. You might be lucky....there might be a bit more detail. I'll be tied up for the next fortnight, but, soon afterwards, I hope to meet up with my friend who has a record of all the useful sites, so please give me a kick then & I'll pass them on to you.
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The thing to remember is that Liverpool was the Principal port of embarkation for emigrants to the USA.
People from all over Europe converged on Liverpool with the aim of getting a ship to take them to the USA.
Many of those people decided that Liverpool was such a pleasant place that they remained in Liverpool or Lancashire.
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Many of those people decided that Liverpool was such a pleasant place .
And they would be right :) - from a truly un-biased lancashire lass ;)
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My information about my German ancestors came from another descendent of the same line I met on the Internet. He visited the village where they came from and looked at the local records. A lot of Germans can speak English so speaking to locals about a surname can sometimes be helpful. You might even meet a distant cousin.
C
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. You might even meet a distant cousin.
C
I have infact found a number of cousin who are also searching but we are all in the uk and decendents of John - one of them hopes to get over to germany next year but until we make a connection and find any siblings of John, as yet we have not found a single one , it sure would help us make the leap to german records as at the moment we are bit stuck -
Topsy
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hi,
my g/grandfather henry laray came from germany not on census 1881 but married in waterloo/lpool 1882 then worked bootle fire brigade were he changed his name to waterman must be connection there. died attending a fire on the ss st ronaus in langton dock sept 30th 1893. i have spent hours trying to find german connection passenger lists or emigration from germany but if you dont know district/village impossible.
cannot find records from bootle fire brigade possible he put morethan just germany there.
crosboy36
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This reply is very late, it being 2019 nearly 2020 now but I have some things to contribute. I have German ancestry on both sides, both my mother and fathers ancestors being Prussian but we’ll call it German eh? I’m from West Derby but my maternal great-great grandfather, Heinrich Nickolaus Ehlen emigrated to Liverpool, where my family have lived ever since thanks to them, and settled in Kirkdale I believe - well that was where he lived later in life, if he lived there all his life I do not know. My 4th great grandfather, Francis Schomberg was a Lithuanian/Prussian/German Jewish immigrant (I presume he was Jewish because of his surname) and he too was in the Kirkdale area I believe. When I looked at the people who lived in Heinrich’s house (it was the Victorian Era so people obviously were that poor that they had to share houses) they all had german surnames, which just adds to the presumption that Kirdale was a key place for a German diaspora). The conclusion I have drew is that Kirkdale was a community for them, almost a safe haven from the anti-German attitudes at the time. All the best, fellow German-Britons.