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Research in Other Countries => Other Countries => Topic started by: Annie65115 on Sunday 06 June 10 12:42 BST (UK)
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Kathleen Mary Byrne, born 1899 in Ireland m Francis Verner Wylie in Bombay in 1923, according to familysearch.
Kathleen was from Dublin and her family was well-to-do. She is shown in the 1911 Dublin census living with her parents but I cannot identify her on any shipping records for a journey to India after that time. No-one else in the family ended up in India and there is no suggestion that her parents lived in India during the 1911 - 1923 period. (Her father was Dublin's coroner so easily traceable through newspaper reports throughout the years).
So, my questions:
1. Can anyone spot her travelling to India before her marraige? I've found her in passenger lists after her marraige but that doesn't help!
2. Would it be normal or likely for other family members to make the journey to India for the wedding?
3. If she went alone -- why would a well-bred unmarried girl go to India alone in those days? I don't think she would have been employed as a governess or anything, she was from the employing class rather than the employed!
I realise that any answers to 2 and 3 will be conjecture but I'd be interested in any ideas!
Cheers :)
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Sir Francis Verner Wylie studied at Trinity College Dublin 1909-1915 http://www.upgovernor.nic.in/wyliebio.htm
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Their engagement was announced in The Times of February 6 1923, page 13
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Thankyou, Shaun - I don't currently have access to the newspapers archives without taking out another sub -- are you able to give any further detail about the engagement announcement?
thanks :)
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Engagement announced between Francis Verner Wylie ICS Indian Political Dept, younger son of late David Wylie and Mrs Wylie, Derryfubble, Moy, Co. Tyrone & Kathleen, younger daughter of Louis A Byrne FRCS and Mrs Byrne 40 Merrion Square
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A couple more interesting facts about Francis Verner Wylie :-
He received his Knighthood from the King on May 12 1938 and, on September 8 1948, was appointed Government Director of the Suez Canal Company.
Tony
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I've found potted histories of him, and a photo. He's my friend's great-uncle by marraige and she knew that he was something "big in India" and now we know how big!
With his and Kathleen's families both being Irish, I assumed they met in Ireland but having found the wedding registration in Bombay throws this theory into question. And we have no idea when Kathleen went to India for the first time.
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they were my grandparents
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Annie65115
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Annie65115
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Just wondered if you are still looking into the marriage of Kathleen and Francis Wylie - they were my grandparents! They were married in India as, I believe she was Protestant and he Catholic and they were therefore cut off from both sides of the family and that is why none from their families attended the wedding. As far as I am aware there was no further contact, ever.
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FYI
Kathleen was a Catholic
1901 census (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003725538/)
1911 census (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000216426/)
and Francis was a Protestant
1901 census (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001193967/)
1911 census (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003434987/) Francis not shown
and interestingly when Kathleen's father, Dr. Louis Aloysius Byrne, died in 1932 his estate probate went to Francis in 1935.
So there must have been some contact after they married!
I've attached reference, Louis's sister(?) also died that year; probate to Kathleen's sister Frances & her husband
edited to correct
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The extract doesn't tell you that the estate went to Francis; it tells you that probate was granted to Francis, as executor of the estate.
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apologies I'll correct but it implies contact between the families
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Hattie, I would v much like to make further contact with you by email
If you post 2 more messages, we can then use the pm service. Just post a quick yes or something twice on this thread, that will do the trick, and I will then message you(or you can message me when you've made 3 posts).
Myluck -- what do you know of Kathleen's sister (and which sister)?
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Yes
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ok
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If you look at the 1901 census (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Fitzwilliam/Harcourt_Street/1306577/)return for the BYRNE family, they are:
Louis A 42 Head b.Dublin City
Isabella F 31 Wife b.Dublin City
Frances M 9 Daughter b.Dublin City
Ellen 4 Daughter b.Dublin City
Kathleen 2 Daughter b.Dublin City
And staff
Frances BYRNE married in 1916 Dublin South Q4 V2 P654;
Oswald MURPHY(1911 census (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rathmines___Rathgar_West/Garville_Road/61304/))
Link to grave details (http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/dublin/photos/tombstones/1headstones/deansgrange-n02.txt)
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Hattie1966 and otisdiamond: very interested to find this discussion belatedly. I am not a genealogist but an archaeologist, and my interest is in quite a famous sculpture once owned by Francis Wylie and now in the British Museum. It's a Gandharan relief evidently acquired by Francis when a junior civil servant in what was the North-West Frontier. It's famous because, although Buddhist, it shows what Europeans would recognize as the myth of the Trojan Horse. The British Museum's information was partly derived from Francis's son, Verner, who would be your uncle? father? I would be very interested to hear if there is still any family memory about the sculpture. Here is the BM's information: http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=223566&partId=1&images=true
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Verner was my father, he died in 2012 - i will find out if my uncle knows anything and come back to you.
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Thank you so much. I would be fascinated to know if you find out anything. Feel free to reply offline if you prefer. My email and details are on my webpage:
http://www.carc.ox.ac.uk/people/stewart.htm
Peter
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I am related on my Mother's side to the Wylie, Hyde, and Verner families. Thomas Verner (c1795-1875) was my great great grandfather, as was Francis Hyde (1780-1834). David Wylie (c1853-1893) was the husband of my great aunt Margaret Hyde (1857-1925).
Does anyone have information on the parents of Sir Francis Wylie. I believe his Father to have been a David Wylie of Derryfubble in County Tyrone but have been unable to establish if this is the same David Wylie.
Also, there is obviously a strong connection between Sir Francis and the Verner family as one of his sons bore that name. Does anyone have any information on that connection?
Any details will be much appreciated.
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If you go to this website and scroll down to 14th Sept 1849 you will fine a Wylie-Verner marriage which I assume to be the origin of the connection between the families -- but I have no specific knowledge of the family tree and actual descendants might know better...
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PS sorry - the website I mentioned is:
http://www.cotyroneireland.com/marriages/clonfeacle.html
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Tintern, many thanks for that. I found that I did have that record but it then led me to the actual record of the birth of Sir Francis Verner Wylie on 9th August 1891 which reveals that his Mother was Margaret Hyde whose sister Lydia was my grandmother. This record can be seen at https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk/search/birth.
It seems that the Verners were not in Sir Francis's direct ancestry but were a little more distantly connected. As the Wylie and Verner families lived in the same small area of County Tyrone where the Verners were major landowners I wonder if the latter perhaps were benefactors of the Wylies, who were small farmers, and maybe aided them with the cost of the education of their son which led him to positions of distinction in later life. This might be the reason that the Verner name appears so often in the Wylie family.