RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => United States of America => Topic started by: coombs on Tuesday 01 June 10 21:57 BST (UK)
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Hi
My 3xgreat grandfather Thomas Musgrave emigrated from Durham, England to America in September 1886 after his wife died the previous year. He left with his daughter Margaret Musgrave. Before I found he had emigrated I searched for years for a death in England to no avail and ruled out all possible ones of his age group. I then found out he was in America in 1900.
Thomas is on the 1900 US census living with son in law Robert Sutherland and his wife Elizabeth in North Fayette, Allegheny, Pennsylvania aged 72, born December 1827, England. Thomas was baptised 23rd December 1827 in Darlington, Durham, England son of Thomas and Jane Musgrave. This is the last I see of him. Elizabeth Sutherland was Thomas's daughter born April 1852 as Elizabeth Musgrave.
He is not on the 1910 census and his daughter is living with her married daughter Mary Saix in Washington, PA, whom she was with in 1900. I assume Thomas was dead by the 1910 US census.
It is his death that I am now after. If anyone could help me find it I would be very grateful.
Ben
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I have sent a message to a fellow Rootschatter for you, asking for a look up in Allegheny County. Hopefully he will reply on this thread. Meanwhile, I wish you the best of luck with this last piece of your jig-saw.
Regards.
;D
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Thanks for that.
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Hi Ben.
This was roughly the reply I received with regard to the enquiry on Thomas Musgrave:-
His death is registered at the Courthouse in Allegheny County. The contact had not been there for a while however the pagenweb project tells where to send for records after 1906 - Dept of Vital Statistics and before 1906 a request can be sent to the Registrar of Wills with as much info as you have. If Thomas died before 1906 it will just be a journal entry date and place of death.
Sorry, this was'nt more positive news for you but still gives a glimmer of hope to you finding that final piece of the jig-saw.
Regards
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Hi
Thanks.
What if he didn't leave a will though? Will his death still be mentioned? Also what about newspaper obituaries and burial records? I am sure they will give info if he died before January 1906.
Thomas, please reveal your date of death. ??? ??? I know you have been dead about 105 years but I am a genealogy addict. :D
Ben
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Frustrating because we have no idea which side of 1906 Thomas Musgrave died.
Some information is here - up to 1905:
You could write to the Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh at the address given. Looks like $5 for one search and 2/3 weeks for a reply.
http://www.clpgh.org/locations/pennsylvania/BirthDeathRecords.html
and here after 1906:
http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/genealogy_requests/14125
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Hi Dettori.
Yes I may have to write to them to get the ball rolling. I know his daughter Elizabeth Sutherland died in August 1911 aged 59 and she is buried alongside her second husband Robert Sutherland at Robinson Run Cemetery. Some of their MI's are online on an Allegheny cemeteries website but I cannot seem to find an entry for Thomas but the list is not complete and he may been in an unmarked grave. I have a suspicion he was buried at that cemetery but that is only a suspicion due to the fact his daughter was buried there with her husband who died in 1906. Again it doesn't lead me any closer to finding his actual date of death.
Ben
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I was going to suggest RAOGK (Allegheny) who take pictures of tombstones and look up obituaries but I have just found what I think is the daughter Elizabeth and there is only a metal marker. So what are the chances of having no headstone on her fathers grave ???
Would it be possible to contact the Cemetery and see if it was a family plot and perhaps Thomas is buried with daughter and her husband or even next to them. ???
SUTHERLAND, Elizabeth, 1850-1911, no headstone, only a metal marker, (Photo)
(There was no photo.)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/09g9/
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Hi
Yes it might be a good idea to contact the cemetery holders to see if there is a plot or something. I would think Thomas is buried there. If he did in an Allegheny hospital or workhouse then I would still think his family had him buried near them.
Ben
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I think I need to find an address for Robinsons Run Cemetery and ask if they could look up their burial registers.
Thomas arrived in America in September 1886 and his daughter Margaret married in September 1889 in Carnegie, Pittsburgh. I am assuming that when Thomas first arrived in the States that he lived in the Pittsburgh area before later moving in with his daughter Elizabeth in the North Fayette area.
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Hi Ben: I was wondering what happened with your search for Thomas Musgrave. I haven't been on Rootschat for a while, but today I thought I'd have a look and there was this new thread.
I located the telephone number for Robinson Run Cemetery and made a quick call. No answer, no voice mail. But I did send a message to a person who has done photos at Robinson Run--to see if she knows anything about office hours.
I also saw the interment listings for Robinson Run Cemetery on the Allegheny County Genweb page that you seem to have seen. Are you certain that this is your Elizabeth Sutherland. I know the dob is correct and the husband is Robert. (And is there a son James also buried there?) But where does your certainty come from.
You'll remember that I lived in Washington County, and I only ask because the city of Washington (where Elizabeth Sutherland was living late in life with her daughter) is not far away from North Fayette Township, Allegheny County, where they used to live. But there are dozens of cemeteries in between those two places.
Have you traced the son James Sutherland (1888-1952) in the 1920 and 1930 censuses? Given his birth date of 1888, there should be a copy of his registration for the World War II draft on Ancestry or FamilySearch Pilot. These records should help you find information that might lead you to descendants (who might be alive). Added: Just checked the WWII draft registrations on FamilySearch Pilot. No James Sutherland from Washington County or Allegheny County. But he still might be on Ancestry versions of the same records.
There also might be descendants of Mary Saix hiding somewhere.
As for Allegheny County and death records: The county website indicates that July 1874-1903 death records for Allegheny County (excluding the city of Pittsburgh and some municipalities that aren't relevant to your search) are now at the Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh. The records from 1906 forward are with the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Unfortunately, that leaves a gap of two years with no records (1904-1905). But at least you can scratch Allegheny County offices from your search list.
I'll let you know if I hear anything back about Robinson Run Cemetery.
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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Hi Johnny
In 1910 Elizabeth was living with her married daughter Mary Saix and an obituary on that very website says that she died at the home of her daughter Mary Saix in August 1911. I am certain she is the right one. Also their son is buried there, James born 1888.
Ben
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Hi Ben: Let me go read the obit...
John :o :o :o
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Hi Johnny
Yes I established that she was the right Elizabeth pretty much when I first found out about her. I found out about her when I found out that my 3xgreat grandfather had emigrated and was living with her in 1900. The 1900 US census gives month and year of birth and that helped me establish I had the right people beyond doubt.
Ben
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Hello Ben,
John mentioned the WW2 draft for James Sutherland, I am not sure if you have it but these are the details if you have'nt:
Name: James Sutherland
Birth Date: 15 Dec 1888
Birth Place: Allegheny Looks like McBonald ??
Residence: Ohio, West Virginia
Wife:- Mary Sutherland.
Employers Name:- Robert Littlehales. Elm Grove. ......
Place of Employment:- No 3 Mine. Triopdelphia. Ohio
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Hi Dettori
Thanks for that. The birthplace of James Sutherland might help me narrow down where in PA Thomas Musgrave settled once he arrived there in 1886. His youngest daughter born in 1st March 1871 in Durham, England married in September 1889 in Carnegie, Allegheny to Thomas Prosser. She went with her father when he emigrated as all his other children were married by then and she was only 15.
He was with his daughter Elizabeth in 1900 but I do not know if he went to live with her when he first arrived in America.
Ben
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Hi Ben: I found the obits of Elizabeth Sutherland and Robert Sutherland.
Elizabeth's obit mentions her place of death as the East End. That is part of the city of Washington, I believe.
You also have four families to search for in the U.S. censuses: sons James Sutherland and Thomas Wilson and daughters Mrs. Joseph THOMAS (her first name?), and Mrs. John SAIX (Mary).
The town of Bulger, where Thomas Wilson or both Thomas and James Sutherland were living in 1911, when Elizabeth died, is north of the city of Washington and several miles west of North Fayette Township, Allegheny County, where the Sutherlands and Thomas Musgrave formerly lived.
According to Robert's obit, they lived in McDonald in North Fayette Township.
My topographical atlas of Pennsylvania shows McDonald straddling the border of Washington County and Allegheny County, with most of it in Washington County. Robinson Run Cemetery is a mile or so east of McDonald.
Robert Sutherland was a member of the Knights of Pythias, a fraternal organization.
More may come later.
John :o :o :o
My bet would be that Thomas Musgrave is buried in Robinson Run.
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I found this on a website about McDonald, Pa. This is the marriage of Mary Ellen Wilson, Elizabeth's daughter
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Hi Johny
Thanks for the info. I agree with you on betting Thomas is at Robinson Run.
Ben
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Hi Ben,
If you would like copies of WW1 & 2 Drafts etc please send me a personal message with your e-mail address and I will forward copies for you. No problem.
James Sutherland was on the 1900 Census with Robert, Elizabeth Sutherland & Thomas Musgave but this is James & his wife Mary with son in 1910 Census for Smith, Washington, Pennsylvania James had been married for 2 years.
James Sutherland 22 Married 2 years. Miner in local mine.
Mary V Sutherland 22 Had 1 child and 1 survives.
James G Sutherland 1 and 1 mth old.
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Thanks both for the help. I await the response to Johnny's query to Robinson Run.
Johnny when in 1901 did that marriage take place?
This is getting exciting now into finding out more on Thomas.
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Hello Ben,
John mentioned the WW2 draft for James Sutherland, I am not sure if you have it but these are the details if you have'nt:
Name: James Sutherland
Birth Date: 15 Dec 1888
Birth Place: Allegheny Looks like McBonald ??
Residence: Ohio, West Virginia
Wife:- Mary Sutherland.
Employers Name:- Robert Littlehales. Elm Grove. ......
Place of Employment:- No 3 Mine. Triopdelphia. Ohio
Added: I was interrupted for almost two hours!
Great find, Dettori.
James Sutherland was born in McDonald. To clarify the draft information, because it is garbled and misspelled: James Sutherland in 1942 was living in Ohio County, West Virginia. Sounds kind of crazy. But Ohio County, West Virginia borders Washington County, Pennsylvania. Probably only 20 miles from the City of Washington to Triadelphia, West Virginia, where James was employed as a coal miner.
Ben: The marriage between Ellen Wilson and John Saix took place March 7, 1901.
If you want to go to the website where I found the marriage, go here: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~florian/index.htm
Scroll down to find links to McDonald newspapers.
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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Hello John.
Hope it was a nice interruption ;)
Hello Ben.
I am a little unsure if you have all you need on your families. Do you need the Saix Census or have you got them in 1920 and 1930 ?
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Hi Dettori: Could you post the Saix census details. Maybe I'll see something helpful.
Ben: Here is a quote about the church in McDonald whose pastor married Ellen Wilson and John Saix.
"The First United Presbyterian congregation was organized February 26. 1876. It built a frame church which was used until 1896, when the present edifice was erected at a cost of $23,000 and the old building sold to the Colored Baptist congregation. Rev. W. D. Irons is the present pastor." (from about 1926).
If you Google "W.D. Irons", you'll find a lot about McDonald. It makes looking for these folks a little easier.
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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Hi
I have the Saix censuses but could anyone post me the full details of Elizabeth Sutherland in the 1910 census with her daughter Mary Saix?
Ben
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Mary was born in October 1884 according to the 1900 census meaning she married in March 1901 aged 16 and a half. A young age.
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Hi Ben.
1910 Smith, Washington, Pennsylvania
John Saix 33 Born France. Parents Born France. Brakeman on railroad. Immigrate 1881
Mary E Saix 25
Elizabeth B Saix 6
Thelma M Saix 4
Berdina D Saix 2
Elizabeth Sutherland 57
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Hi
Thanks for that. Does it state a year of immigration for Elizabeth Sutherland or is it just for the head in that census? I know it was about 1880 but it would be good to see what that census states for her year of immigration.
Ben
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Sorry Ben, I was surprised that it did'nt give that information for Elizabeth. Widow. Had 11 children and 4 survive was the only other info. :(
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Thanks anyway. The number of children she had and what survive tally with the 1900 census and I know she had a few children in England before she emigrated. It would be good to find out which daughter was married to Joseph Thomas.
I may have found her son Thomas Wilson's marriage to a Sarah Sutherland in 1897.
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Oops - missed your last post John but here are the other Census. No reference to Immigration date for John
1920 Census Carnegie Ward 1, Allegheny, Pennsylvania
John Saix 44 Birthplace Pennsylvania. Parents France. Conductor on railroad
Mary Saix 35
Thelma Saix 14
Berdina Saix 12
Lillie Saix 9
John Saix 5 yrs 7 mths.
1930 Census Carnegie, Allegheny, Pennsylvania
John Saix 56 Born Penn. Age at first marriage 27 yrs. Conductor on Steam railroad
Mary Saix 44 Age at first marriage 25
Lillian M Saix 18 No Occupation
John Saix 16 No Occupation
Hi Ben. I need to go back and read through again to understand who Joseph Thomas was.
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Thanks.
It all helps in the search for Thomas Musgrave's death and burial. And of his life when he first arrived in America in 1886. I may have to find out more about American voter registrations to find that out.
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Hi Ben.
SSDI Record for John T Saix
Name: John T. Saix Birth: 14 May 1914
Death: 1 Sep 1993 - Austin, Potter, Pennsylvania.
Civil: Pennsylvania
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Thanks.
Thomas Musgrave's youngest daughter married in September 1889 in Carnegie, PA aged 18 to Thomas Prosser. Her 1900 census entry has her born March 1871 which ties in with her birth on 1 March 1871 in Durham, England.
Ben
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So Thomas died somewhere between 1906 - 1910. The youngest child is 4 years old on the
1910 census Carnegie Ward 2, Allegheny, Pennsylvania and Margaret is widowed.
Margaret Prosser 39 Immigrated 1880. Had 8 children and 8 survive.
Kate Prosser 20 Servant - Private Family
Lilly Prosser 18 Servant - Private Family
Jennie Prosser 16 Servant - Private Family
Thomas Prosser 14
Edna Prosser 12
George Prosser 10
Clyde Prosser 7
Mary Prosser 4
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Hi
That immigration year is wrong for her though as in 1900 it is stated as 1887. As said immigration years can be years out. She came with her father to the States in 1886.
Ben
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Yes, I realised that but I had to put what the census was telling me. I cannot instantly see them at the moment in 1920 unless they are mis-transcribed. ???
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Hi
Its OK I understand. You have to put what the census tells. I tried once finding them on 1920 to no avail. Apparently a lot of people have problems locating ancestors on the 1920 US census for some reason.
Ben
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So you have'nt found Margaret or any of the children after 1910 ? Do you know where Thomas Prosser is buried or is that still a mystery ?
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This looks like a son - the 1900 Census said Born Jan 1896
WW1 Draft Dated 5 th June 1917.
Thomas William Prosser.
Born 28 Jan 1896
310 Academy. Carneige PA
Single.
R R Brakeman. Penna Lines …..
Mother partly dependant
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I am not sure when Thomas Prosser died nor do I know his burial.
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We have to presume it was between 1905 - 1910 with Mary born 1906.
WW2 Draft No Date
Thomas William Prosser. 108 Dunbar Street. Allgeheny. PA
Person who will always know you:- Clyde Prosser, 505 Library Ave. Carnegie. PA
Employer:- Penna R R. Pittsburg. PA. (Trainman)
At the moment we do not know who Clyde Prosser can be. I am sure it would have said if it was a son, so maybe he is a nephew ???? Another mystery for now.
Silly me. Clyde is the Brother of Thomas ;D
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If only more PA death records were online for that period, it would clear many mysteries up.
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Looks as if the Prosser family stayed in Carnegie - this is brother George E Prosser.
SSDI Record
Name: George E. Prosser
Born: 11 Apr 1900
Died: 2 Jul 1974
Last Residence: 15106 Carnegie, Allegheny, Pennsylvania.
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That is good. Thomas Musgrave's son in law Robert Sutherland's mother Margaret joined them in October 1893 according to the passenger lists but in 1900 her year of immigration is 1890. See how easy it was to get it wrong?
I am still sooooo pleased that I have a direct ancestor who emigrated. I always wanted one for some reason and now I have found one.
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Might find a few more yet (hopefully)
Brother Clyde 1903 -
1930 Census Carnegie, Allegheny, Pennsylvania
5th Avenue
Clyde W Prosser 27 Married age 20 yrs (so 1923) Draftsman at steel works
Barbara E Prosser 21
2 children. 1 male (same name as father and 1 female - better not name incase still living)
Alice Mccaffrey 22 Born Pennsylvania. Cousin
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The next thing is to find the wife of Joseph Thomas, the daughter of Elizabeth Sutherland/Wilson nee Musgrave. I did say I think I found her son Thomas Wilson and his marriage to Sarah Sutherland in 1897 the sister of Robert.
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I will have a look at that for you when I finish the Prosser family.
I can name the son Clyde W Prosser.
SSDI Record
Name: Clyde W. Prosser
Born: 5 May 1930
Died: 17 May 2003
Announcement of Clyde's death - sorry this is pay per view - $2.95 - Observer-Reporter - NewsBank - May 23, 2003
CLYDE W PROSSER JR 73 formerly of Carnegie died Saturday May 17 2003
Perhaps John may have access to that one ?
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This is certainly a lot more info I will be adding to my GEDCOms.
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GEORGE E PROSSER - Born April 11, 1900 Died July 2, 1974 74 years PA 15106 (Carnegie, Allegheny County)
Read more: http://www.faqs.org/people-search/george-prosser/#ixzz0qTgbNDU5
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Hi Ben.
Don't go away, think I've found something very interesting - might need John's help as well.
1930 Census Carnegie, Allegheny, Pennsylvania
George E Prosser 30 Signalman on railroad. Married at 24 years. THINK OF HIM AS GEORGE EDWARD PROSSER I
Margarett Prosser 29
George Prosser 4 THIS IS GEORGE EDWARD PROSSER II
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This is GEORGE EDWARD PROSSER I
SSDI Record
Name: George E. Prosser
Last Residence: 15106 Carnegie, Allegheny, Pennsylvania, United States of America
Born: 11 Apr 1900
Died: 2 Jul 1974
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This is GEORGE EDWARD PROSSER II (the son on the 1930 Census)
SSDI Record
Name: George E. Prosser
Born: 7 Nov 1925
Died: 26 Aug 1980
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This is GEORGE EDWARD PROSSER III
SSDI Record
Name: George E. Prosser
Born: 3 Nov 1950
Died: 26 Jul 2007
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This is GEORGE EDWARD (SKIP) PROSSER III
http://www.rootschat.com/links/08vm/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skip_Prosser
http://www.rootschat.com/links/08vn/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/08vo/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/08vp/
http://hoopedia.nba.com/index.php?title=Skip_Prosser
Cannot put the whole obituary for you becausee of living relatives but he is a section:-
George Edward Prosser - Cincinnati Enquirer, The - (Aug/2/2007)
Greater Cincinnatians will be able to pay their respects and say goodbye Saturday to Skip Prosser at a memorial Mass at Xavier University.
Mr. Prosser, former head basketball coach at XU, died July 26 of a heart attack in his office at Wake Forest University in Winston-Salem, N.C., where he was the head coach.
Mr. Prosser, 56, coached the Xavier Musketeers from 1994 until 2001. He had been assistant to Coach Pete Gillen for eight seasons before that.
George Edward Prosser was born Nov. 3, 1950 in Pittsburgh. He played football and basketball at Carnegie High School - in a suburb of Pittsburgh - and went on to receive a degree in nautical science from the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy in 1972. He received a master's degree in secondary education from West Virginia University in 1980.
Mr. Prosser is the only coach to take three schools to the NCAA Tournament in his first year on the job.
His first head-coaching job was at Loyola College in Baltimore, where he coached the team to a 17-13 record and its only NCAA Tournament berth in the year he was there.
He was named Atlantic Coast Conference Coach of the Year in 2003.
Mr. Prosser kept a home in Mount Lookout after leaving XU for Wake Forest in 2001.
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Wow thanks for these results. They are amazing.
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No problem Ben. I expect you will find loads more to read on "Skip" that will keep you busy for a while. I fully expect John will be able to find loads as well ;)
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Yes John is helping me find Thomas Musgrave's death. Plus he will no doubt find other things out on his American descendants.
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Just re-reading and filling in the gaps I can see.
This is James Sutherland and Mary on:-
1920 Census Smith, Washington, Pennsylvania
James Southerland 31 Born Pennsylvania. Rents home. Coal-Miner
Mary Southerland 29
James Southerland 10
Margret Southerland 9
Viola Southerland 8
Lillian Southerland 6
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I am updating my gedcoms as I speak.
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Multi-tasking Ben. I will have another look tomorrow. Can you explain the Thomas Wilson/Sutherland and the Wilson children. I was'nt quite sure who John mean't in his earlier post. ;D
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In 1897 a Thomas William Wilson married a Sarah Sutherland. I think Thomas was the son of Elizabeth nee Musgrave born 1852 daughter of Thomas Musgrave. In the 1900 census he says he was born in England.
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This must be them:-
1900 Census Fayette, Pennsylvania
Thomas W Wilson 25 May 1875 England. Immigrated 1879. Married 1896.
Sarah J Wilson 24 Aug 1875 England. Had 2 children. 2 survive.
Lily M Wilson 4
Thomas W Wilson 5 mths
Margaret Sutherland 64 Mother-In-Law. Widowed.
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So in 1910 he has been widowed and married again. Sarah Wilson must have died 1904/5. No wonder you want to see more Pennsylvania Deaths on the Index.
1910 Smith, Washington, Pennsylvania
Thomas W Wilson 37 Marriage 2. Married 5 years. Coal Mine Machinist
Mary A Wilson 37 Had 3 children and 3 survive + Thomas's 2 from 1st marriage.
Lilly M Wilson 14
Thomas W Wilson 12
Elizabeth S Wilson 3
John R Wilson 2
William Wilson 22 months.
Thomas J Munroe 39 Boarder
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1920 Census South Fayette, Allegheny, Pennsylvania
Thomas W Wilson 47 Immigrated 1881 Naturalized 1900. Electrician Manufacturing Co.
Mary Wilson 47
Elizabeth S Wilson 18
Thomas Jr Wilson 23 Labourer on Railroad.
John R Wilson 11
William Wilson 9
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1930 Census Smith, Washington, Pennsylvania
Thomas Wilson 57 Owns Own Home $3500. Married at 23 yrs. Travelling Salesman for mine supplies
Mary A Wilson 55 Married at 31 years.
Elizabeth Wilson 23 Teacher at Public School
John Wilson 22 Labourer Machine Shop
William Wilson 20
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Thanks. Would Thomas have been on a WW1 Draft registration card?
I think he was born in May 1873 in Coundon, Durham.
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WW1 Draft
Thomas William Wilson. Born 22 Dec 1899. Bidger/Bulger ??? Washington. PA
Labourer for PCC & St LRR Co ??? Carnegie. Allegheny. PA
Nearest relative:- Mrs. Mary A Wilson
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Hi
That must be his son Thomas Jnr.
I think Elizabeth Musgrave later Wilson emigrated in late 1880 or early 1881. I have tried passenger lists but as yet no luck. Thomas W Wilson was about 5 and her first husband was Robert Wilson.
Ben
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Hi Ben and Dettori: I see much has been added to this thread that I didn't get notified from Rootschat to read. I think if you miss viewing one reply, you get cut out of the loop, as they say at the White House and in other places where it is important to be in the loop.
To cut to the chase. I believe I have located Thomas Musgrave's place of burial. Unfortunately, there is no gravestone and some of this is deduction, but...read on.
Telephoned Robinson's Run Cemetery this morning. On Oct. 29, 1886 Mrs. E. Wilson purchased a burial lot (Section OP, Lot 134) containing eight graves. That would be Elizabeth Musgrave Wilson. All of the graves are filled.
I believe that one of the plots might have been for Elizabeth Musgrave's first husband, Thomas Wilson, who may have died in 1886. The cemetery has no record of Thomas Wilson being buried in 1886, but who else would Elizabeth have bought the grave plot for? Perhaps a child?
Another grave was for Robert Sutherland, Elizabeth's second husband, buried 1906, according to an obituary posted on the Robinson's Run Cemetery page of the Allegheny County, Pennsylvania PAGENWEB website.
A third grave was for Elizabeth Musgrave Wilson Sutherland herself, buried in 1911, according to an obit on the same web page.
None of these graves have tombstones on them.
Since Thomas Wilson (and/or another relative, poss. a child) may have been buried in 1886 and Robert and Elizabeth Sutherland were buried 1906 and 1911, it stands to reason that a close relative dying between 1886 and 1911 would also be buried in one of graves. That would include Thomas Musgrave, father of Elizabeth and father-in-law of both Thomas Wilson and Robert Sutherland.
The cemetery does not have an entry for a burial for Thomas Musgrave, but the records in the early 1900s are spotty, according to the cemetery office.
Another grave lot (Section 8, Lot 115) has more relatives. There are six graves, but only three burials. All of these graves have stones.
Mary Ellen Wilson Saix, Elizabeth's daughter from her first marriage, was buried there in 1962. Her husband John Saix is buried there (date of burial not mentioned) and James Sutherland (died in the city of Elkins, West Virginia) was buried in 1952. He is the son of Elizabeth Musgrave Wilson Sutherland.
So I think we have answered the question of where Thomas Musgrave is buried. Probably as well as it is going to be answered, unless new information emerges.
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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Hi again: The widow of John T. Saix, born 1914, died Austin, PA. 1993, was Rita Saix, nee Heim, born 1916. She died in 2008 in Pittsburgh, and there is an obit online in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. However, one must pay for it.
John T. Saix must have moved to Potter County for work. Possibly his father got him a job with a railroad.
As for the Prossers: They might be a line to pursue. Carnegie, which I know well and is the town where they resided, is only about ten miles from McDonald, where I think the Sutherlands lived when Robert was a coal miner.
In 1890 to 1940, there was rail service from Washington, Pa. to Pittsburgh that would have passed through McDonald and Carnegie. There was also trolley service until the 1950s(?) or so.
I remember reading about the death of Skip Prosser in 1907, but I had no idea that he was from Carnegie.
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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Hi John
Wow. Although out of the 8 graves filled we only know about 6 names dont we? I do know that Robert Sutherland's mother Margaret went out to America in 1893 and remained there. So there are two or 3 more unknown relatives buried in that grave plot?
When they said the burials are spotty, do they mean the records of burials themselves? If so then I wonder what years do survive?
Ben
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Wait a minute Thomas Musgrave emigrated in September 1886 to America. His wife Ann died in December 1885 in England so his daughter's first husband must have died about the time Thomas emigrated.
So Thomas Wilson, Robert and Elizabeth Sutherland are 3 people buried in 3 of the 8 graves? If her daughter Mary Saix was buried in another plot, then we have to say that 5 more people are buried in the plot Elizabeth bought in 1886 right?
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Hi Ben: By spotty, I think the woman I spoke with meant not very informative. Not much information was written about some individual burials in the early years. Perhaps she also meant that some information did not survive time--lost, discarded, etc. She was checking through two books. One seemed to be lot sales and the other was burial registrations.
Also, to clarify and separate. We areally know of only five burials.
There were two burial lots. One had eight graves (bought by Elizabeth Musgrave Wilson Sutherland). Of those eight, only two--for Elizabeth and her second husband, Robert Sutherland--are recorded as burials. I believe Elizabeth bought the lot when her first husband died (or possibly a child).
I believe that her father Thomas Musgrave is buried in one of the eight graves. All of the graves have burials, so Margaret Sutherland could also be buried in one of the eight graves.
The second burial lot contains six graves but only three burials: (1) John Saix, (2) Elizabeth's daughter, Mary Ellen Wilson Saix, and (3) Elizabeth's son, Jame Sutherland. Three graves are unoccupied.
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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Wait a minute Thomas Musgrave emigrated in September 1886 to America. His wife Ann died in December 1885 in England so his daughter's first husband must have died about the time Thomas emigrated.
So Thomas Wilson, Robert and Elizabeth Sutherland are 3 people buried in 3 of the 8 graves? If her daughter Mary Saix was buried in another plot, then we have to say that 5 more people are buried in the plot Elizabeth bought in 1886 right?
Our last posts crossed in the mail. Yes, you are correct. Five more people are buried in that lot. One of them, I believe, is Thomas Musgrave.
John :o :o :o
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Hi John
So it does look like we know where Thomas is buried. I think we are a lot closer to his burial but his death is yet to be found. Obituaries, wills and others now need to be checked. At least we can be pretty certain of his burial place.
Ben
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Hi John
So it does look like we know where Thomas is buried. I think we are a lot closer to his burial but his death is yet to be found. Obituaries, wills and others now need to be checked. At least we can be pretty certain of his burial place.
Ben
If Thomas Musgrave died in Washington, Pa., a death record (and will, if any) would be at the Washington County courthouse, which is in the city of Washington. If he died in McDonald, it would depend on where in McDonald he died, since it straddles the border between Washington and Allegheny counties.
Unfortunately, in the early 1900s deaths were not always recorded by the county. They might have been recorded only by a church if he were buried through one. And wills were not always made out unless money or property was involved.
But that is a task for another day.
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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Hi Johnny
Thanks anyway. I am sure we will find a death for Thomas. Newspapers are a good source for obituaries. I think Allegheny has 1900-1903 deaths but with a gap of 2 years until registration began in January 1906. Lets hope that Thomas died after then. But if he didn't I will not rest until i find his death.
Ben
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Hi Ben,
Excellent information from John, that helps with a number of your mysteries.
I understood the name of Elizabeth's first husband was Robert but you both seem to be calling him Thomas - is that correct ?
I was looking to find them on a UK Census record today but did'nt have any luck, suspecting maybe they had gone earlier than you thought. So that could be correct. ;D
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I am so thankful to John. A step closer to finding Thomas's death.
Elizabeth Musgrave married Robert Wilson in January 1870. I cannot find them at all on the 1881 census for England so they must have just emigrated. Later US censuses say they emigrated about 1879-1881.
Dont forget that obituary is probably wrong. They must have mistaken Robert for Thomas.
Elizabeth Musgrave had 11 children in total and 7 died. The ones I know of are:-
Ann born 1871
Thomas William born 1873
Margaret born 1875
George born 1877
Robert born 1879
Mary Ellen born 1884. The 1900 census says she was born October 1884.
and with her second marriage:-
James Sutherland born 1888.
5 are still left to be found, including the wife of Joseph Thomas so that will be 8 found.
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Ann, Thomas, Margaret, George and Robert were all born in England. I think I may have found a death for Robert in 1880 aged 3 in the right district. And one for George about the same time. If so then they probably emigrated about late 1880-1881.
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Just a confirmation of Ruth Saix which John found for you.
SSDI Record
Name: Rita C. Saix
Born: 1 Jan 1916
Died: 31 Mar 2008
Last Residence: 15205 Pittsburgh, Allegheny, Pennsylvania
and John Saix
Name: John T. Saix
Born: 14 May 1914
Died: 1 Sep 1993
Last Residence: 16720 Austin, Potter, Pennsylvania, United States of America
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My PAF and GEDCOMs are swelling.
I have googled RRC Cemetery and have seen a few photos of the cemetery itself.
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You have gathered quite alot of info over the last few days that will have filled gaps but obviously still have others. Still cannot find a passenger list for the Wilson family. Thomas Wilson 1873 - I can see no WW1 draft - so maybe he did'nt register. ???
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I may have found the wife of Joseph Thomas. I found a Joseph L Thomas on the 1900 census with an Elizabeth Thomas born Dec 1881 in PA whose parents were born in England. They were living in Washington, Pennsylvania. In 1910 she is down as Elizabeth A Thomas born about 1882.
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Are these the ones - will post incase John wants to look.
Everything does point to the family being in the US by the date this Elizabeth was born. A passenger record would be a good find - woner if they travelled separately ?
1900 Census Cecil, Washington, Pennsylvania
John A Thomas 49 Born Wales. Immigrated 1869.
Anna M Thomas 49
William J Thomas 25
Joseph L Thomas 32 Born Penn Sept 1877. Oil Merchant.
John L Thomas 16
Elizabeth Thomas 18 Born Penn Dec 1881
1910 Census Cecil, Washington, Pennsylvania
Joseph Thomas 36 Born Penn. Parents W.English. Married 5 years ??? Salesman - Oil Wagon
Elizabeth Thomas 28 Born Penn. Parents Born Penn ??? Had 4 children and 4 survive
Indel Thomas 4
Howard Thomas 6/12
Anna Pasher 17 Servant born France.
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1920 Census Munhall, Allegheny, Pennsylvania
Joseph L Thomas 42 Born Penn. Mother England. Father Wales. Electrician in Steel Works.
Elizabeth A Thomas 38 Born Penn. Parents England
Inadelle E Thomas 14
Howard L Thomas 10
Phyllis M Thomas 5
Joseph L Pasher 23 Nephew. Armature Winder in Steel Works
Elizabeth A Pasher 18 NieceStenographer in Steel Works
Fred Pasher 16 Nephew Test Carrier in Steel Works.
Louis Pasher 14 Newphew
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1930 Census Munhall, Allegheny, Pennsylvania
Joseph Thomas 52 Born Penn. Parents England and Penn. Owns Home $4000. Married at 21 yrs. Winder in Steel Works.
Elizabeth A Thomas 48 Born Penn. Parents EnglandMarried at 18 years.
Havard L Thomas 20 Married at 20 yrs. Mechanic at Electric Plant..
Hilda K Thomas 20 Daughter In Law
Phylis M Thomas 16
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Now it looks like 8 children have been found for Elizabeth there is just 3 more to be found.
By Robert Wilson.
Ann born March 1871, Durham, England
Thomas born May 1873, Durham, England
Margaret born January 1875, Durham, England
George born August 1877, Durham, England
Robert born August 1879, Durham, England
Elizabeth born December 1881, Pennsylvania, America
Mary Ellen born October 1884, Pennsylvania, America
and by Robert Sutherland
James born December 1888 Pennsylvania, America.
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Perhaps she could have had more with Robert Sutherland, there is only James recorded so far. Or the 3 year gap between Elizabeth and Mary Ellen. Otherwise she was producing every 2 years.
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She married Robert Sutherland in December 1887 in Allegheny, Pennsylvania. James must have been her first child with Robert. Her first husband must have died about 1886 and from what Johnny has said Elizabeth bought a grave in October that year which we believe Thomas Musgrave is buried.
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Pity the 1890 census doesn't survive. Maybe she did have another child or two with Robert and they died. Anyway when I am in America next time I shall try and visit PA and even Robinson Run.
I am sure we will find the remaining 3 children of Elizabeth. She may have had one in about 1883 inbetween the births of Elizabeth and Mary.
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Just a confirmation of Ruth Saix which John found for you.
SSDI Record
Name: Rita C. Saix
Born: 1 Jan 1916
Died: 31 Mar 2008
Last Residence: 15205 Pittsburgh, Allegheny, Pennsylvania
and John Saix
Name: John T. Saix
Born: 14 May 1914
Died: 1 Sep 1993
Last Residence: 16720 Austin, Potter, Pennsylvania, United States of America
Here's a link to a brief obit for Rita Saix that appeared on a Potter County, Pennsylvania website. She and John Saix seem to be buried in Austin, Potter County, Pennsylvania. Potter County is 160 miles northeast of Pittsburgh.
http://www.endeavornews.com/news/2008-04-12/obits/021.html
Here's a link to another obituary for Rita Saix (wife of John T. Saix, who was Elizabeth Musgrave Wilson's grandson?). This obit appeared in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette newspaper in April 2008. Crafton, where Rita Saix died, is a borough that borders Pittsburgh on the west.
The obit is 124 words long, so it may contain names of children, probably living. To view the obit costs $2.95 (two pounds?), and there is a guest book with two entries that is included in the cost.
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/postgazette/obituary-search.aspx?daterange=99999&firstname=rita&lastname=saix&countryid=1&stateid=49&affiliateid=717
John :o :o :o
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I noticed all of the census information for Thomases that has been posted since I last was online. I may not have mentioned that there may be a grave in Robinson Run Cemetery for Joseph L. Thomas, wife Elizabeth ((Elizabeth Musgrave's daughter and died about 1941), and several others who seem to be their children or their grandchildren or possibly the children of John Thomas and his wife Anna (Elizabeth Musgrave's daughter).
Gary Thomas died 2009/10 (obit in Pittsburgh Post-Gazette)
His wife Phyllis McCracken Thomas died 2009 (mentioned in above obit)
Mildred Thomas died between 1992 and 1994
William J. Thomas died 1926
Susan Thomas 1932.
Take these with proverbial grain of salt and add a lump of sugar. They all need more investigation to confirm.
John :o :o :o
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Don't know if this is relevant, but here is an obit for Thelma Saix Hunt from the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette from 2001. Turtle Creek, where she lived, is a few miles from Munhall, where Joseph L. Thomas and wife Elizabeth and children were living in 1920 and 1930.
HUNT, THELMA M. (SAIX)
Age 95, on August 25, 2001 of Turtle Creek; wife of the late Thomas D. Hunt; mother of William J. Hunt and Norma J. Matheys, both of Turtle Creek and Barry W. Hunt of Fairfield IA; also five grandchildren and three great-grandchildren. Friends received Monday 2-4 & 7-9 pm at the JOBE FUNERAL HOME, INC., corner Shaw & Triboro Ave. Turtle Creek, where service will be Tuesday at 10 am. (Member of the Senior Citizens at the Human Service Center).
John :o :o :o
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Hi Johnnyboy
Thanks for the new info.
So there could well be another family plot for the family at RRC. As said I think that is the were the grave of Thomas Musgrave is.
Ben
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Hi
I had a dream last night about Thomas's last known residence in England before emigrating. Lintz Colliery, Tanfield, Durham. His wife died in December 1885 and buried on 31 December. Thomas emigrated when the ship he was on sailed in late August 1886. If his eldest had bought a grave in October 1886 then that was just after Thomas arrived in America. Maybe now her father had joined her over there she bought the plot and he was guaranteed a grave there for when he was to die but as said she may have lost her first hubby or a child around the time as well.
Ben
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Thanks for that.
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Are you a relative?
Thomas Musgrave, your death details can run but they can't hide. ;)
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Dear Ben and John,
I am related to the Saix Family in Washington County and can give you information. It is spelled Saix or Saixe
John Saix mother is Delphine Legal born October 22, 1850 in Pradell - Gard France near Nimes.
She married Jules Saix (Born: January 1845 to Died: September 27, 1907). He is of the same area of France and they moved to the USA in 1872.
They lived in McDonald, Washington County, PA.
At the time of death she had 4 children: Harry (Henry), John, Ellen and Blanche.
I can give you more information if you want it. Phil
Aug. 15, 1941 Obits McDonald Record-Outlook
SAIX,
John SAIX, 66, died Saturday, August 9, 1941, in his home in Carnegie. The
SAIX family resided in the house now occupied by the Arthur ROSENCRANSEs,
Roosevelt avenue, McDonald.
He had been a conductor on the Pennsylvania railroad for thirty years and
was a member of the Brotherhood of Railway Trainmen.
He is survived by his wife, Mrs. Mary Ellen WILSON SAIX; three daughters:
Mrs. Thelma HUNT, Mrs. Lillian RAHNED, and Mrs. Berdina MACK, all of
Carnegie; one son, John SAIX, Jr., of Carnegie; two sisters: Mrs. Blanche
KINNEY of Beaver Falls and Mrs. Helen RICHERT of Cecil, and one brother,
Harry SAIX of Fannie street, McDonald.
Funeral services were held Tuesday afternoon in a Carnegie funeral home.
Burial was in Robinson's Run cemetery.
SAIXE, March 21, 1902 McDonald Record
SAIXE,
An infant child of John SAIXE of Belgium Hill died Saturday evening and was
buried Monday afternoon. Funeral services were conducted by Rev. W. D.
IRONS. The interment was at Arlington cemetery.
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Hi Phil: Welcome to Rootschat. I'm sure Ben will be thrilled to see your post.
As you can see, this search has taken lots of twists and turns. Ben's original query was about his ancestor, great-great-great grandfather Thomas Musgrave. If you are directly descended from John Saix and Mary Ellen Wilson Saix, then you would also be related to Thomas Musgrave, who was Mary Ellen Wilson Saix's grandfather. Does any of your information go back to him?
I think Thomas Musgrave is buried in Robinson Run Cemetery in Macdonald--in a grave plot that his daughter, Elizabeth Musgrave Wilson Sutherland, bought when her first husband, Thomas Wilson, died. But Thomas Musgrave is not listed in the cemetery ledgers.
By the way, my interest in this is that I know Washington County. I grew up in the eastern part of Washington County, on the Monongahela River.
Don't tell Ben this, but I will be in Washington County later this week and part of next week. If the weather cooperates, he might get pictures from Robinson Run Cemetery.
I'd also be remiss if I didn't note that Sandra has contributed immensely to helping Ben gather information.
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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Hi Felipe.
Glad to hear from you. :) :) :) :) :)
Johnnyboy you say Thomas is not listed in the ledgers but didn't you say that even though the 8 graves are filled that the ledgers only list who bought the grave?
Ben
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Thomas Musgrave stop being a spoilsport and let me know when you died. ;D ;D
I will not stop until I have found his death. If I have to fly over to America to do research then so be it. I am sure an obituary will have been held or a will and if he died after January 1906, a death cert.
In 1900 he is in North Fayette, PA. His son in law was a stationary engineer. Thomas was 72 and he is listed as "Gent" it seems. Does that mean he lived off his savings or something?
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Ben:
"Gent." probably meant that he was retired. Think of a nattily dressed man sporting a cane as he perambulates about the bustling oil and coal metropolis that was McDonald, circa 1890s to 1900.
McDonald's library (Heritage Library) has a website. Nothing much on it, but it is the closest town to where Thomas Musgrave was living in 1900. I found an e-mail address if you want to contact the library. McDonald's newspaper may have an obituary for Thomas, but you're looking at ten years' worth of searching.
The e-mail address is heritagelibrary@comcast.net.
John :o :o :o
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Sporting a cane?
When you talk about the ledgers does that ledger only mention who bought the grave?
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Sporting a cane?
When you talk about the ledgers does that ledger only mention who bought the grave?
Hi Ben: By ledger I simply was referring to the burial registers. I haven't seen them, so I can't tell you what they contain. But when I spoke with the woman at Robinson Run Cemetery, she mentioned two different record books that she was consulting.
As for the cane. Yes, "sporting a cane." Carrying it stylishly. ;) That's what gentlemen do with a cane. At least they did circa 1890, 1900. At least I think they did.
John :o :o :o
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Hi John
You did say the ledgers may not be complete and the info can be vague.
Thomas must have spent his final years in the family miners home in PA sitting in the garden in summer sipping ale or reading a paper and sitting by the fire in winter as I did hear PA winters were quite bad.
Ben
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Hi
If Thomas was retired I would think he lived off savings wouldn't you?
He moved to the USA from England in 1886, docking in September and his daughter bought a grave plot in October the following month. Maybe she bought it when her father arrived and he was guaranteed a place in one of the graves for when he passed on.
He arrived in September 1886, just in time for the cold winter of 1886 and Christmas.
Ben
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Hi Ben: Christmas might have come early for you. Have you been a good boy?
John :o :o :o
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Ben: You do know what the Marx brothers said, don't you? "There is no Sanity Claus."
So...I took a trip to Pennsylvania a week and half ago. And I made to North Fayette Township, and South Fayette Township, and McDonald, and the city of Washington. I even took some pictures.
:o :o :o
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You wanna see some pictures, Ben?
Here are a shot from Robinson Run Cemetery: The grave of Elizabeth Sutherland and second husband Robert Sutherland in close up.
There is no gravestone, only this marble planter with metal markers. But a maintenance worker at the cemetery told me that the dried flowers in the planter mean that someone has been caring for the grave.
:o :o :o
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Here's a second shot of their grave, Ben. A long shot to give it some context. Ben, I think you are looking at the grave of your 3x great grandfather. See the next post for explanation.
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Ben: You'll notice that there are plenty of empty spaces all around. Those are graves without grave markers. Keep that in mind. Here is the cemetery's record card for Elizabeth and Robert Sutherland.
The plot was purchased in 1886 by Mrs. E. Wilson--that is, Elizabeth Musgrave when she was still married to her first husband, Thomas Wilson.
You will notice that while the register has only two names listed, there is a notation that the plot, which contains six graves, is full. That's I believe this is where Thomas Musgrave is buried. There are four other people buried with Elizabeth and Robert. Her first husband and her father are two of them. I have no way of confirming that, but I think it is a logical assumption. I believe the burial plot was bought by Elizabeth for Thomas Wilson, who must have died in 1886. The plot was available when Thomas Musgrave died. Where else would a daughter bury her father?
Here, incidentally, is the burial permit for Elizabeth Sutherland. This was used in lieu of a death certificate to allow Elizabeth to be buried. The cause of death, in case you can't read it, is mitral insufficiency. She had heart problems.
:o :o :o
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Here is a picture of the grave of Mary Ellen Wilson Saix, her husband John Saix, her brother James Sutherland, and her son and daughter in law Harry and Mathilda Saix, as well Raymond Saix, who, I think, is the grandson of Elizabeth Sutherland and great grandson of Thomas Musgrave.
The large stone marks the graves of Mary Ellen and John Saix. James Sutherland is buried behind the grave of Raymond Saix.
:o :o :o
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Here's the grave register of Margaret Sutherland (daughter of Elizabeth and Robert Sutherland?) and three females from the Saix family. I'm not sure of how these Saix females are related to Mary Ellen Wilson Saix and John Saix. They are buried a good distance away from the Saix grave.
Note that two of the Saix females were infants--indicated by "B" after their names. They are buried in a single grave. And the plot has five empty graves. That means Thomas Musgrave is not buried in this plot.
:o :o :o
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Two more photos. Here is the (substitute) burial permit for Robert Sutherland. It gives the cause of death and tells you where Robt. and Elizabeth Sutherland were living in Bulger (Washington County, a few miles west of McDonald).
:o :o :o
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Final photo, but only the next to the last post.
Here's a photo of Robinson Run. Everything to the left of the middle of the creek is in North Fayette Township, Allegheny. Everything to the right is in South Fayette Township, Allegheny County. Directly south, i.e., behind the camera, about five hundred yards is Washington County and McDonald.
Five jurisdictions border on one another here, each with its own annoying way of making the search for Thomas Musgrave very difficult.
:o :o :o
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Have you gotten enough this go round, Ben? Well, here's a bit more, and very important. So important I'll put it in bold. On my way to Robinson Run Cemetery, I went to the Register of Wills at the Washington County Courthouse to look at the death registers for the years 1900 to 1906. Thomas Musgrave's death is not recorded by Washington County in those years. That means he may have died in Washington County but was not recorded there. That's not likely. Dying and being buried was a highly bureaucratic business in turn of the century Pennsylvania.
I think that two other explanations are possible. First, Thomas Musgrave and Elizabeth's Musgrave's first husband, Thomas Wilson, died and were buried when record-keeping at cemeteries like Robinson Run was not very good. The other possibility is that Thomas Musgrave died in North Fayette Township and his death was recorded (or possibly not) in Allegheny County.
I'm stopping now.
John :o :o :o
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Hi Johnnyboy
Many thanks for the past few posts. Gosh it is amazing to finally see photos of the graves and where Thomas Musgrave is likely to be buried. I shall be spending all night adding to my family trees.
The net is closing in on Thomas's death. If the family (his daughter and her husband) were in Washington by March 1906 but in Fayette in 1900 when Thomas was 72 and living with them and you cannot find a death in Washington then this indicates that he may have died between June 1900 and March 1906 in Allegheny.
Thomas Musgrave must have died shortly after the 1900 census, or at least a couple of years. Maybe 1902 or 1903.
Ben
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Hi Ben & John,
I have been full of excitement and waiting for you to log on all day Ben, knowing the lengths that John had gone to in travelling and investigating, to produce these beautiful photographs and other records for you. A truly amazing Gentleman - you must be absolutely over the moon. ;D
Absolutely brilliant John. ;D
Regards.
Sandra
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The net is closing in on Thomas's death. If the family (his daughter and her husband) were in Washington by March 1906 but in Fayette in 1900 when Thomas was 72 and living with them and you cannot find a death in Washington then this indicates that he may have died between June 1900 and March 1906 in Allegheny.
Thomas Musgrave must have died shortly after the 1900 census, or at least a couple of years. Maybe 1902 or 1903.
Ben
Hi Ben: You're welcome for the pix. There are still a number of possibilities concerning the death of Thomas.
1. Though it's unlikely, he might have died in Washington County before 1906 without his death being recorded by the County. If that were to be the case, it would be very difficult to find his death date.
2. Likewise, he might have died in Allegheny County before 1906, with the death NOT being recorded by the Allegheny County Register of Wills. If that were to be the case, it would be very difficult to find his death date.
3. Note that death records in Allegheny County only cover the period July 1874-1903, according the Allegheny County website. He might have died in Allegheny County before 1904, with the death recorded by the Allegheny County Register of Wills. If that were to be the case, then the registers that were given by Allegheny to the Carnegie Library would contain a record of his death.
4. He might have died in Washington or Allegheny counties after 1906, with the death recorded by the Pennsylvania Bureau of Vital Statistics (or whatever it was called in 1906). If that were to be the case, you could order a death certificate from the state.
5. There is a two-year gap, 1904-1905, in the death records of Allegheny County. That could be an insurmountable problem.
I will send you a PM with the e-mail address of the person who is posting obituaries from the newspaper in McDonald online.
I will probably have to go out to Washington County at the end of September, so if you want to wait that long, I'll visit both the Allegheny County Courthouse and the Carnegie Library.
John :o :o :o
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I have been full of excitement and waiting for you to log on all day Ben, knowing the lengths that John had gone to in travelling and investigating, to produce these beautiful photographs and other records for you. A truly amazing Gentleman - you must be absolutely over the moon. ;D
Absolutely brilliant John. ;D
Regards.
Sandra
Thanks for the kind words, Sandra. It's nice to called "amazing' and "absolutely brilliant," but I do wonder about that "gentleman" bit sometimes ;).
And unfortunately, while I was able to help Ben on this trip, I have to send a PM to another Rootschatter who has family buried in a cemetery in Washington, Pa., saying that there does not appear to a be a gravestone on her relative's grave. :(
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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Hi Johnnyboy
You are a gentleman. Dont forget that. I am sooooo grateful for the pics.
I am 95% sure Thomas is at RRC with his daughter. It is hard to know if he died in Allegheny or Washington.
So if he died after 1 January 1906 it will be a lot easier to find a death date. I think he died either after 1906 in Allegheny or Washington or before 1906 in Allegheny, not before 1906 in Washington even if there is a remote chance.
Knowing my luck I bet the bleeder Thomas Musgrave died in 1904 or 1905 in Allegheny to annoy me lol. ;D ;D ;D
As you said if he died in either before 1906 obituaries may be the next step. I remember you suggested he may have been buried through a church before being interred at RRC. That is wishful thinking though.
I am sure there is a reference to his death somewhere. Amazing that we seem to have found his burial place but not his death date.
Ben
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Hi Ben: Just got your PM. Good luck with the obits.
As for finding the grave of Thomas Musgrave, but not finding a death date, Robinson Run Cemetery apparently wasn't strict early on in its record-keeping.
John :o :o :o
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Hi Ben: Just got your PM. Good luck with the obits.
As for finding the grave of Thomas Musgrave, but not finding a death date, Robinson Run Cemetery apparently wasn't strict early on in its record-keeping.
John :o :o :o
The grave of Thomas Musgrave, a ring to it. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I hope Thomas didn't quote Mercutio from Romeo and Juliet, who after he is stabbed says to Romeo, "Ask for me tomorrow, and you shall find me a Musgrave man."
Couldn't resist. ;)
John :o :o :o
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In the 1900 census Thomas William Wilson says he was born in May 1872 in England. I just recieved his birth cert which says 16th May 1872 in St Helen Auckland Durham , son of Robert Thomas Wilson and Elizabeth Wilson formerly Musgrave.
Elizabeth's brother died in 1922 of heart problems. George Musgrave. He is my 2xgreat grandfather. His grandson Roy Musgrave died of heart problems in 1989. And Roy's son recently died of a heart attack aged 49. Seems to run in the family. :o :o :o :o
When Thomas died it is highly unlikely George sailed to the USA to attend the funeral. He would have just had a letter sent across to England about it then he sent back his condolences.
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I am back to post another image from my excursion to Robinson Run Cemetery. This one is probably the most important image after the photos of Elizabeth Musgrave Sutherland and Robert Sutherland's burial plot. I refer to the entry in the grave register for this plot.
You will note that the plot was purchased by Mrs. E. Wilson on Oct. 29, 1886. That may gives us an approximate date for the death of her first husband, Thomas Wilson. Why else would a woman purchase a burial plot. If it had been for a child, the husband would probably have made the purchase.
You'll also notice that though there are only two people listed in the entry, a notation at the bottom says that the plot is filled. That would mean six people are buried there. That's why I believe Thomas Musgrave is buried there.
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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Hi Johnny
Again many thanks. As you said they didnt seem bothered about the entire list of buried people there but Thomas has to be one. Both Thomas's Musgrave and Wilson.
Ben
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Hi Ben: Record-keeping was spotty back in 1886 .
One question for you, prompted by the new certificate you mention. Was Elizabeth Musgrave's first husband Robert Thomas Wilson or Thomas Robert Wilson? Or did he merely go by the name of Thomas Wilson?
John :o :o :o
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Robert Thomas Wilson. The obituary says he was Thomas Wilson but as said they may have forgot to add his first name.
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In reply #114 (page 8 of this thread), the register for the grave bought by Thomas W. Wilson in January 1900 lists Margaret Sutherland as being buried there. Wouldn't this be Thomas W. WIlson's mother-in-law, mother of his wife, Sarah?
To clarify the photo included in Reply #113 (also page eight of this thread) Harry Saix is the brother of John Saix, husband of Mary Ellen Wilson (granddaughter of Thomas Musgrave).
Judging from the dates on Raymond Saix's gravestone, I think he is the son of Harry and Mathilda Saix.
John :o :o :o
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Hi Johnny
If Margaret Sutherland is buried with her son in law then our theory that she was buried with Elizabeth is out of the window so that means we know Elizabeth and her two husbands are buried there and Thomas Musgrave so there is 4 others.
Ben
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I have quite a lot of experience with England electoral registers of the late 1800s and early 1900s but not sure about directories and electoral rolls of America of that time. If Thomas was retired by 1900 would he still have appeared in a directory at least?
This might be another way of narrowing down when he did.
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Hi Ben: Thomas Musgrave might have appeared in the directory of the City of Washington, listed in the household of whomever it was he resided with. If he were listed, he probably would have been described as "Retired." But I haven't seen directories of Washington. He might also have been in a McDonald directory, but I haven't seen one of those, either.
I can't remember if Thomas was naturalized or not. If he had become a U.S citizen, he might have been eligible to vote in elections, but I don't know at what level--state, federal, local? ??? Electoral records are kept at the county level now; probably the same was the case in late 1800s-early 1900s.
John
:o :o :o
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Hi again, Ben: I neglected, when I posted the pictures and all of the burial information, to include Margaret Sutherland's year of death. It was 1908.
Regards again,
John :o :o :o
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Hi Johnnyboy
I dont think Thomas was naturalised. He was an AL (alien) in 1900 and aged 72 by then I dont think he bothered later on.
I can add Margaret's death to my tree. Thomas would have been 80 if still alive in 1908. December 1907 would have been his 80th birthday. I think he died in Allegheny inbetween 1900-1905 or Washington inbetween 1906-1910. Not Washington 1900-1905 or Allegheny 1906-1910 judging by the info you have given.
Ben
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Hi Johhnyboy
I have been perusing this thread and I did think that Robert Sutherland died in March 1906 in McDonald, Washington but as you said some of the town was in North Fayette Township, Allegheny.
And a child of John and Mary Ellen Wilson Saix died in March 1902 of Belgium Hill which I have found is in Cecil Bishop near McDonald.
When Mary married in 1901 she must have been in the McDonald area them moved a few miles of Belgium Hill. Elizabeth Sutherland is with her in 1900 as was Thomas Musgrave. And in 1910 Elizabeth is back living with her.
My thoughts are that perhaps Mary left home in 1901 and moved to Belgium Hill when she married and Robert Sutherland, Elizabeth, James and elderly Thomas Musgrave lived together in the McDonald region of North Fayette Township. So it does look like the Sutherland's and Thomas lived in Allegheny up until at least March 1906 when Robert died. Elizabeth probably then moved back with her married daughter.
So if Thomas Musgrave died before January 1906 he probably died in Allegheny and if after January 1906 perhaps Allegheny or Washington.
I cannot remember the town Elizabeth Sutherland lived at in the 1910 census. It says Washington but was it in the town itself or was it in the Washington district?
Ben
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Hi Ben: I just saw your post. Rootschat isn't notifying me of replies.
If Elizabeth Sutherland was enumerated in the 1910 census as living in Washington, that means she was living in Washington proper. There isn't a "district," as such, outside of Washington. Any areas around Washington are townships, and the census enumeration would have listed that at the top of the census form.
If you go to Elizabeth Sutherland's enumeration in 1910, you might see street names written in a narrow column the left margin of the page. Street names were frequently written from the bottom toward the top. You may have to go to a preceding or following page to see a street name.
John :o :o :o
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Hi Ben: On a related topic: It just occurred to me that when you first posted about Elizabeth Sutherland's obituary way back when, the place of her death was in the "East End." I originally took that to mean that she died in the city of Washington. I was thinking of East Washington, which I thought was a part of Washington but is actually a separate borough that borders Washington.
But Elizabeth Sutherland's obituary appeared in the McDonald newspaper, and "East End" refers to the eastern part of McDonald, the part lying in Allegheny County. If you find McDonald on a map, you'll find an "East End Park."
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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Where my ancestor lived in 1900 was North Fayette 5th precinct which I now think was in the Allegheny area of McDonald. What I want to do is try and find a census enumeration district as that might pin down. There was no street name listed so it must have been a mining house down a dirt track.
My bet is Thomas died in Allegheny if his daughter was there in 1906 when Robert died. I think I had better just write to the State archives to see if he did die after Janaury 1906.
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My bet is Thomas died in Allegheny if his daughter was there in 1906 when Robert died. I think I had better just write to the State archives to see if he did die after Janaury 1906.
Hi Ben: I looked at the website of the Pennsylvania Department of Health (which issues birth and death certificates starting from 1906). There is a $25 charge (plus $9 for a certificate) for a multi-year search covering two to ten years. For Thomas Musgrave, the search would probably cover 1906 and the next four years, including 1910, for a total of five years.
John :o :o :o
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Hi Johnny
As said Thomas could have died any time inbetween 1 June 1900 at the time of the census and April 1910 by the time of the next census but I am sure we will find his death. If they cannot find a death inbetween Jan 1906 and 1910 then he must have died before January 1906. I am sure he died in North Fayette Township at home although there is a small chance He may even have died in a hospital.
Ben
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Hi Johnny
I hope you read this latest message soon.
Thomas's brother Nathan Musgrave was in Indiana in the 1900 US census and the Anc Indiana Death Indexes has a Nathan Musgrave dying in Indiana in 1905. I dont have a full sub to Anc to access the full details. I hope to also find an obituary for Nathan on the off chance it might mention Thomas if he was still alive ie "he is survived by a brother" or at least the number of siblings that would be a good clue.
I also want to access the full details of Elizabeth Wilson's 1887 wedding to Robert Sutherland in Allegheny and Margaret Musgrave's marriage in September 1889 to Thomas Prosser in Carnegie, Allegheny. How would I go about doing that as I got the info off IGI.
Ben
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I also want to access the full details of Elizabeth Wilson's 1887 wedding to Robert Sutherland in Allegheny and Margaret Musgrave's marriage in September 1889 to Thomas Prosser in Carnegie, Allegheny. How would I go about doing that as I got the info off IGI.
Hi Ben: First the old business. Unfortunately, I did not see this last post of yours until today (Jan. 7). The IGI marriages of Elizabeth Musgrave Wilson and Margaret Musgrave were compiled by the Western Pennsylvania Genealogical Society in Pittsburgh from the records of the Pittsburgh Board of Health (now defunct). At some point the WPGS records were microfilmed. The LDS eventually obtained them and "extracted" the original marriage information.
You can see the Film Notes on the LDS site by going here: http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=titlefilmnotes&columns=*%2C180%2C0&titleno=257622&disp=Ministers%27+returns+of+marriages+perfor++.
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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Hi again Ben: Now the new business. While I was visiting Pennsylvania for Christmas, I went to the Carnegie Library in Pittsburgh. In the Pennsylvania Room there, I found an index to the "registration of deaths in Allegheny County, 1893-1905." The index is a transcription of deaths recorded by Allegheny County.
Thomas Musgrave was not listed in the index. That means he died in 1906 (when deaths began to be registered with the state of Pennsylvania) or later. The place of his death becomes an open question again. It occurred in either Allegheny County or Washington County.
The easiest way to proceed may be to order Thomas' death certificate from the state of Pennsylvania. The folks who issue death and birth certificates will do a search of three years for a fee over and above the cost of the certificate. I believe that the total cost for a certificate and a search of three years is $35 (U.S.). The exact cost is on the website of the Pennsylvania Department of Health.
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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Hi Johnny
Thanks for that.
Although I did think that 1904 and 1905 were missing from that index or was that another index?
Again many thanks for helping me. I shall have to order his death cert. So he was at least 78 when he died so he lived longer than most of his siblings. So he died inbetween Jan 1906 and the 1910 census.
Ben
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I also want to access the full details of Elizabeth Wilson's 1887 wedding to Robert Sutherland in Allegheny and Margaret Musgrave's marriage in September 1889 to Thomas Prosser in Carnegie, Allegheny. How would I go about doing that as I got the info off IGI.
You can see the Film Notes on the LDS site by going here: http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=titlefilmnotes&columns=*%2C180%2C0&titleno=257622&disp=Ministers%27+returns+of+marriages+perfor++.
Regards,
John :o :o :o
Hi John. I cant see to access the info. I get an error message from the site.
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Hi Ben: Two things.
First, the link above, to the LDS site, is merely a link to the descriptive notes about the microfilms of the Allegheny County marriage records. It's not a link to any records. Sorry if I created any confusion in that regard.
Second, if you want to see the film notes, you have to copy the entire link (all the way to "perfor++"). For some reason or other the whole link is not live in my post.
I think ordering Thomas Musgrave's death certificate is a good idea. Make sure you note that you are a lineal descendant. Pennsylvania requires that you be related to the person whose certificate you are seeking.
Keep us posted on developments.
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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Hi John
So the 1893-1905 death registers are quite complete then? So Thomas died inbetween January 1906 and the April 1910 census. He must have still be alive and kicking when his son in law died in 1906, in which Thomas had been in America for 20 years.
The registers should solve his death date once and for all.
Ben
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I have downloaded a multiple year search form and shall fill it out and send it off although they require you give at least a county of death and he could have died in Washington or Allegheny.
Good that his death details are getting closer and we have a good idea of where he is buried. If he was still alive at the end of 1907 he'd have been just 80.
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Hi Ben: Rootschat didn't notify me of your reply, so I only saw this post just now.
I telephoned the Pennsylvania Division of Vital Records in New Castle, Pa. (the place where you are going to send your application for the certificate) and spent 10 minutes on the phone with two different people getting some answers and clarification of what's required on the application for the multi-year search.
I am sending you a personal message with what I learned from the folks at the Division of Records.
For everyone else reading this, I'm sorry that I'm not posting any advice here. The people I spoke with at the Pennsylvania Division of Vital Records were polite and down-to earth. I'm sure they'll get Ben what he wants. (End of PR for my home state.)
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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Hi Johnny
Got your PM. Thanks a lot for all this. His death is closing in on us. he would have been alive to hear of his brothers death in 1905 in Indiana.
Ben
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I have downloaded the form and filled it out. As I live in the UK I would probably have to send it by air mail to America.
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Talking of this I have been quite busy and have forgot to send off for the death cert so will need to do that to get closure on his death date. I need to get the ball rolling and send the application form off.
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Talking of this I have been quite busy and have forgot to send off for the death cert so will need to do that to get closure on his death date. I need to get the ball rolling and send the application form off.
Hi Ben: No time like the present to send off to Pennsylvania for Thomas' certificate.
Incidentally, I had a look today at the 1900 census page for Thomas, his daughter Margaret, her husband, Robert, etc. I had not noticed that William Sutherland, Robert's brother was living with them. Have you investigated what became of him?
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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Hi Johnny.
No not yet. But I am sure Thomas Musgrave died inbetween January 1906 and April 1910. So he was around 80 when he died.
Ben
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Hi Ben: Sorry if I was unclear in my last reply. I was wondering if you had investigated what became of William Sutherland. I checked for William in the index for the 1910 U.S. census but couldn't found any sign of him.
I also noticed from the 1900 census that Robert Sutherland had filed a Declaration of Intention for naturalization. The Prothonotary's office in Washington County has a card index of naturalizations in Washington County until 1906. I may be in Pennsylvania in the next few weeks--if it ever stops raining in the eastern U.S.--and will try to check the card index. There's a chance that Robert Sutherland filed his Declaration in Washington County, rather than in Allegheny County.
Even though Robert and William Sutherland are a bit tangential to the search for Thomas Musgrave, you never know where the trail of one or another person will lead.
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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Hi Johnnyboy.
The death certificate of Thomas Musgrave will no doubt list his burial place confirming whether he was buried at RRC. If he was still alive in December 1907 he'd have had his 80th birthday that month. He was baptised 23 December 1827 and the US census says he was born Dec 1827 England so I guess he was born 1=15 December 1827. Some of his younger siblings were baptised at a church different to his baptism church and the church some of his siblings were baptised at lists dates of births and they were all baptised at around 15-20 days old so Thomas was probably born in the first week of December 1827. The death cert might list his date of birth.
Ben
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Hi
I am coming to America in September but only to Chicago. Just hundreds of miles from Allegheny, PA where my ancestor is buried.
Johnnyboy I did hear that there is a 4 month wait until I get a death cert for Thomas if I apply. Is a bit offputting. I may just have to hire a researcher to try and find an obituary or wait until Ancestry put PA deaths online for 1906 onwards.
Ben
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Hi Ben: Glad you're getting to the U.S.--if not to Pennsylvania. I might be able to get some clarification on how long it will take to get a death certificate in Pennsylvania. I'll try this week if I can and post it here or send you a PM.
John :o :o :o
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I shall be in America for 5 days and am wondering if I could do something to get the cert whilst over there by phone or something to make it easier to send it to the UK.
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I found out that Margaret Prosser nee Musgrave married a William Miller in about 1915 and is on the 1920 US census in Carnegie, Pittsburgh and in Scott, Allegheny in 1930 aged 59.
Now I want to find her death and an obituary as that may lead to Thomas's death.
BTW I am in America in Chicago and have been doing a bit of research at the Newberry Library and will return tomorrow. I dont know if I will have time to apply for Thomas death cert and have it shipped to the UK as I return to England on Friday morning.
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UPDATE:
On the Allegheny websites in Chartres?? cemetery in Carnegie it has a Margaret Prosser Miller b1871 died 1961. Possibly my Margaret. This leads to a year of death and an easier search for an obituary.
She says she was naturalised, probably when she was Margaret Prosser but cannot seem to find her naturalisation at all and wonder if Johnnyboy or anyone else can help?
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UPDATE:
On the Allegheny websites in Chartres?? cemetery in Carnegie it has a Margaret Prosser Miller b1871 died 1961. Possibly my Margaret. This leads to a year of death and an easier search for an obituary.
She says she was naturalised, probably when she was Margaret Prosser but cannot seem to find her naturalisation at all and wonder if Johnnyboy or anyone else can help?
Hi Ben: I hope you had a nice stay in Chicago.
Rootschat no longer notifies me of replies to this topic. I happened to find it by logging in today.
To clarify the spelling: The cemetery where Margaret Prosser Miller is buried is Chartiers Cemetery. It is located in Carnegie, Pennsylvania. Since I know Carnegie, I know the cemetery. But I couldn't find much in the way of information online for contacting it.
I was able to track down the burial index for Chartiers Cemetery that you seem to have seen--maintained by N. Meinert at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~njm1/charm.htm
I found the listing for Margaret. But I did not notice any information about her naturalization. If you saw that information on another website, let me know what it is, so that I can look at it.
If Margaret did naturalize, she probably did so in Pittsburgh, which is only a few miles away, at either a Pennsylvania state court or a U.S. federal court. The U.S. court naturalizations in Pittsburgh are on Ancestry as part of a database on naturalizations in Western Pennsylvania--if anyone wants to check. Not sure where the state court naturalization records are kept. Probably in the offices of Allegheny County, since state courts in Pennsylvania operate at the county level.
If Google had not ended support of their newspaper archive, it would have been relatively easy to search the Pittsburgh newspapers for Margaret's obituary. You can still access the old newspapers, but you have to browse each issue--365 per year. There's no other way to do it.
If you want, I can supply you with the link to access the Pittsburgh Press and the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette from 1961.
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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Hi Johnnyboy.
In the 1920 census she said she was naturalised in 1898 but her then husband says the same year. William Miller. In 1898 Margaret was Margaret Prosser.
Yes if you could provide me with a link to those Pittsburgh newspapers.
Ben
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Hi Ben: Here's the link to Google's News Archive for the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=gL9scSG3K_gC
I hope the ".com" ending works in the U.K. It's best if you open a new tab for each link that you click, so that you don't lose the original link.
When you get to the web page, just type 1961 into the box marked Date. That will take you to a page with the individual months for the Post-Gazette in 1961. Click "View all" to see all of a particular month's issues.
The page number for death notices/obits in the Post-Gazette is listed in the index, which is usually on page one or two.
Let me know how you get on.
If I locate where 1898 naturalizations might be, I'll post the info.
John :o :o :o
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Hi Johnny
I did read you said that you think Pittsburgh naturalisations are not on Ancestry?
I did find a Google Search of the archives of those newspapers but can that be relied on? You could type in a particular word and it would search the archive for you.
Ben
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I did read you said that you think Pittsburgh naturalisations are not on Ancestry?
HI Ben: Some of them are and some of them are not. It depends on the court in which someone was naturalized.
Naturalizations were done in a state court (for example, Pennsylvania) or in a U.S. federal court in a particular state (in this case in Pennsylvania). The distinction between the the two court systems is not important for this discussion of naturalizations. Naturalization is a federal procedure that can be done in any court for convenience sake (mostly because of the great distances that might have to be traveled to get to a U.S. federal court. One goes through exactly the same naturalization process in either court.
Ancestry has Pennsylvania naturalizations done in the U.S court only. Pennsylvania's U.S. court has three geographic districts (as well as subdistricts that are not relevant to this post). The three are the Western District of Pennsylvania (Pittsburgh), the Middle District of Pennsylvania (Harrisburg), and the Eastern District of Pennsylvania (Philadelphia.
The Western District of Pennsylvania has the naturalizations for Pittsburgh and the all of the areas in which Thomas Musgrave and all of his descendants lived.
But even the district distinction isn't important, since all of the Pennsylvania naturalizations done in the U.S. court are in the same database on Ancestry.
On the other hand: To see the naturalizations done in a state court in Pennsylvania, one has to start at the county level--that is, Allegheny County or Washington County, etc. Those naturalizations are pretty much still in paper form at the respective county's courthouse. I've only seen one Pennsylvania county that has any naturalization index or records online.
John :o :o :o
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I did find a Google Search of the archives of those newspapers but can that be relied on? You could type in a particular word and it would search the archive for you.
I think that the search functions on the Google News Archive no longer work. Google has stopped supporting the News Archive. It is simply leaving the digitized newspapers on its servers. If people want to search them, it's by browsing only, which is why I mentioned that page 1 or page 2 of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette had the page number for where that day's death notices.
Maybe Shelly knows different than I do.
John :o :o :o
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The Google News Archives' usability seems to be hit or miss lately. I find that if you go on the regular Google News area (http://news.google.com/nwshp?ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADSA_enUS408US410&hl=en&tab=wn) and search for something, the results page will give the option of the Archives on the left side of the page and then you can search further from there.
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Thanks for that link Shelly. There is a way on the results page to add custom date range, so I tried that, and got no results.
That means Ben will have to browse the individual issues for 1961 to find an obit.
John :o :o :o
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Thanks. It might throw up something on her obituary.
I could try it for an obit for Thomas Musgrave 1906-1910.
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UPDATE.
Nothing new on Thomas Musgrave's death but several Penna marriages have been released on the Pilot site.
Robert Sutherland born May 1859, England wed Elizabeth Wilson born 23 April 1857 were wed and gives her previous marriage as the death of her first husband.
And Margaret Musgrave born 1 March 1868 wed Thomas Prosser born 1868 on 23 September 1889.
Thomas William Wilson who was the son of Elizabeth Sutherland nee Musgrave wed Sarah J Sutherland in 1895 and gives his date of birth as 16 May 1873.
The numbers highlighted in bold are the wrong years. Elizabeth Musgrave later Wilson was born 23 April 1852. The 7 may be a 2 as it looks a bit obscured on the image card.
Margaret Musgrave was born 1st March 1871 and my natural assumption is that she pretended to be 21 when she wed when she was 18 and gave her DOB as 1 March which was correct but 1868 instead of 1871.
Thomas William Wilson was born 16 May 1872 in Durham, England son of Robert Wilson and Elizabeth nee Musgrave. When he wed in 1895 his year of birth was a year out. It is the day and month which really confirms the right people. So yes my 3xgreat grandfather's 1886 passenger list entry to America is the right one. By the time he died 1906-1910 he had been an American resident for about 20 years.
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Hi Ben: In the interest of leaving no stone unturned: Since Pittsburgh is only twenty miles or so from Thomas Musgrave's last known residence in McDonald/North Fayette, I thought I should check the recently released Pittsburgh City Deaths, 1870-1905 database on FamilySearch.org (the Pilot website) for Musgraves.
I found nothing related to your 3xgreat grandfather Thomas Musgrave.
There was an infant female Musgrave who was born and died in 1904. Her parents were Thomas S. Musgrave and Nettie Musgrave.
Perhaps you may want to look for yourself. The database is under Pennsylvania in the U.S. section of the Pilot website.
John :o :o :o
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Margaret Musgrave was born 1st March 1871 and my natural assumption is that she pretended to be 21 when she wed when she was 18 and gave her DOB as 1 March which was correct but 1868 instead of 1871.
Hi Ben: You're probably right about the discrepancy in Margaret Musgrave's age. When my parents-to-be married in Pennsylvania, my mother was under the age of 21. Her father, who lived in another state, had to send a sworn affidavit of consent to the county in Pennsylvania where the marriage was to take place.
You can see an actual affidavit of consent, and a bonus is that it is for one of your relatives--Mary Ellen Wilson, married 1901 to John Saix. Mary Ellen was only 16 at the time of the marriage, and her mother, Elizabeth Sutherland had to provide a sworn affidavit of consent.
The image of the affidavit, at https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-159316-50985-56?cc=1589502&wc=13514154, is from the Pennsylvania County marriages database.
Click the leftward-pointing grey arrow just above the word Print to go back one image (to #1499), and you'll see the application for John and Mary Ellen's marriage license. Images #1498 and #1497 are also connected to WIlson-Saix marriage, but they are only images of the backs of pages.
Incidentally, the Pennsylvania County marriages database has two entries for John Saix. Both pertain to John and Mary Ellen. The first one has an image of the marriage docket book. The second one has the four images of Mary Ellen Wilson's consent affidavit.
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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Hi Johnnyboy
Thanks. Very interesting. Margaret was 18 in Sep 1889 and her month and day of birth ties in with her birth cert but she added 3 years to make it look she was over 21. In the 1900 census she says Mar 1871 as her month of birth and year and in 1930 census she says she was 18 when she first married.
Have you noticed it gives the death date of Mary Ellen Wilson's natural father as well. July 17th 1887. That must be Robert Wilson.
Be good to find something like that on Thomas Musgrave.
Ben
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I wonder if there is any further images for the Margaret Musgrave wedding in 1889? I shall take a look, same for the Elizabeth Wilson remarriage in Dec 1887.
So her first hubby was still alive when she bought the grave in October 1886. My 3xgreat grampy had just landed in Pennsylvania from England so she may have guaranteed him a grave when he died and it may have been for a child that may have died then as well.
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Hi Ben: I did notice Robert Wilson's death date on the affidavit of consent that Elizabeth Sutherland filed for Mary Ellen Wilson's marriage. I think a mistake was made along the way. If Robert Wilson died July 17th 1887, it's seems hardly likely that Elizabeth would have remarried less than six months later, on Dec. 24, 1887, as the Marriage License Docket says she did. And why would she have bought a grave plot in 1886 if Thomas Wilson hadn't died then? Perhaps a clerk misheard the information or someone gave the wrong date.
As to you other question: There should be some sort of image in the marriage database for everyone you mention above in Reply #173. But I think multiple images will only appear for marriages where there was an issue, such as the need for a consent affidavit.
If you do go looking for images, be sure to click backward and forward in the images for additional images related to a particular marriage. My parents' marriage had four images in the database. One of the images--the duplicate coupon sent to the county by the person performing the marriage--is not in the county records. The actual document must have been lost after being returned and microfilmed.
It also pays to look at the entry for both persons. Some information may appear only in the bride's or the groom's entry.
John :o :o :o
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Hi Johnnyboy
Re the death of Robert Wilson. In those days it was not unusual for a widow to remarry within a year or sooner of widowhood. With young children to support as well she may have felt the need for a new husband and she may have known him beforehand and a bond formed between them. I am more in the opinion that she bought the grave plot in October 1886 in general, perhaps a baby had died and she bought it for the future. Maybe her husband was ill for a while before he died perhaps?
Ben
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Hi Ben: I thought that Robert Wilson might have been ill.
John :o :o :o
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It is probable that death date is correct. Be good to look for an obituary or something now.
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Hi Ben: Ten thousand people and counting have read this thread. That should give us some additional incentive to find Thomas Musgrave's death.
John :o :o :o
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Yes it should.
He must have still been alive by January 1906 as we know he must have died after that month which saw the onset of registration of deaths in PA and we know he was dead by the April 1910 census.
If he was still alive in December 1907 he'd have turned 80 that month. His death record may give his exact DOB as the 1900 census says he was born Dec 1827 and he was baptised 23rd Dec 1827 in Darlington, Durham, England.
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I can provide lots of info regarding the Prosser family of Carnegie if you are still interested.
See the attached copy of the Prosser family birth/death records from the family Bible.
Contact me directly at email address (*)
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
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Hi Bob
Many thanks for your message and for hearing from you. What is your connection to the Prosser family?
Good to post that list. When you get up to 3 messages you can PM me.
Ben
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My wife's maiden is Moran. Her mother's maiden name was Simmonds. Her grandmother was Elizabeth Edna Posser Simmonds.
I found your post by searching the Internet looking for info regarding Roy Prosser. He was Edna's nephew. I have a number of photos of the Prosser family and I was trying to find descendents of Roy's in order to pass on some of the info.
Of particular interest to me is a 3 page single spaced, typewritten letter and photo that Roy sent to his parents and sisters while serving in the US Army during WWII. In the letter he provides a lot of info about the time he spent fighting in North Africa, Sicily then Italy. The letter was written while he was in Anzio.
The letter is something that his grandchildren should have.
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I forgot to attached a copy of a hand written note that is part of the info as well as a photo taken of Roy Prosser in March 1944 while he was in Anzio.
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Hi Bob
Thanks. 2 more great images. So Thomas Prosser died in 1906. I shall PM you as you say you have more info on them.
Getting closer to finding the death of Thomas Musgrave.
Ben
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I kind of got caught-up in sending you Prosser info and forgot that you were actually looking for Musgrave info.
This is as close as I can get to Thomas Musgrave...... his youngest daughter.... ,my wife's great grandmother.
See below.
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Hi Bob
Have you any further info on the family bible of the Prosser family?
Ben
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I do have additional info. I would be glad to share it with you but I don't want to post it one piece at a time. How can I get an email address to you so that I can supply all of the info at once? One file is 9,000 kb.
On my 1st post I included an email address and the webmaster deleted it. The email was created specifically to use for getting info to you. I was aware that thousands may see it but I don't care since I can delete it at any time. It was possner dot family at comcast dot net.
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Thanks very much for sharing the info. I have pm'd you my email addy.
Good to get info on the Prosser family as well as the Musgrave and Saix.
Thomas Musgrave born Dec 1827 died about 1906-April 1910. He was dead by the 1910 US census I think as he never returned to the UK and he is probably buried at Robinson Run Cemetery, Allegheny, PA.
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Hi Bob: Just thought I'd say welcome to Rootschat. If you've read through the whole 20 pages of this thread, you've found out that I have been helping Ben (Coombs) with his search for his 3x great grandfather Thomas Musgrave. I'm not related Thomas Musgrave or Ben. I simply know Allegheny County and Washington County, Pennsylvania very well.
If my calculation is correct, Thomas Musgrave is your wife's 2x great grandfather, which means that she and Ben here are fourth cousins once or twice or three times removed. Or something like that.
Have you not found any Prossers still living in Carnegie? According to the Social Security Death Index, Roy Prosser, born Mar. 24, 1919, was living in Carnegie at the time of his death in January 1975 (assuming there was only one Roy Prosser born and raised in Carnegie).
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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Good to get a contact from another person researching the Prosser and Musgrave families.
Margaret Miller, formerly Prosser nee Musgrave died on the 9th February 1961. her obituary was kindly shared by Bob to me. It just gives a few details on her children and such.
Thomas Prosser died December 29 1906 so died within the year range of his father in law Thomas Musgrave. Bob posted his obituary to me which just says he came to America when young. I am hoping that there is an obituary for Thomas Musgrave in one of the papers for the Allegheny area.
Thomas Musgrave was an American resident for 20 years from 1886 to his death c1906-1909ish. He was described as "al" on the 1900 census so was not naturalised. I dont think at 72 he would have been considering becoming an American citizen. Small chance he may have done but unlikely. Now we have found death dates for Robert Wilson and Thomas Prosser the net will hopefully be closing in on Thomas Musgrave.
Johnnyboy as the house Thomas was living at with his daughter, son in law and grandchildren was for miners I wonder if it would have been a 1 storey house or a 2 storey house? The 1900 census does not give obvious details on the street the house was down, just North fayette Township Ward 5. I assume many of the roads were not named or the enumerator did not enter the name of the roads.
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Hi Johnnyboy
Seems some 1906 onwards PA deaths have been indexed now.
http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/public_records/20686
Hi anyone
It does not see complete as there is no mention of Thomas Prosser's death, Elizabeth Sutherland's 1911 one, Robert Sutherland's 1906 one or Thomas Musgrave's 1906-1910 one. This must just be a partial index of deaths.
Ben
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...as the house Thomas was living at with his daughter, son in law and grandchildren was for miners I wonder if it would have been a 1 storey house or a 2 storey house? The 1900 census does not give obvious details on the street the house was down, just North fayette Township Ward 5. I assume many of the roads were not named or the enumerator did not enter the name of the roads.
Hi Ben: Unfortunately, it's impossible for me to tell you what sort of housing Thomas Musgrave lived in at the time of the 1900 U.S. census. If you have access to the actual census page on which he was enumerated, you might be able to tell something about his housing status from the number of people with whom he was counted. On the left of the census page, entries are numbered in two or three ways. Look at the column heading at the top of the page (they read sideways) and you might be able to figure out when one dwelling and its occupants ends and the next one begins.
Street, road, and avenue names are also frequently written in the far left margin of the census page (reading sideways). If you can see the census page on Ancestry, you might have to click through to preceding or following pages to find any names. If you find any street or road names and can post them, I might be able to track the location down with my Pennsylvania Atlas.
If you want to see what some more-recently built (since the 1910s or 1920s) miners' housing looks like, you can go to http://www.coalcampusa.com/westpa/index.html. You'll reach the page for mines in the Western Pennsylvania Coalfields. Click on the Pittsburgh Field, which includes Allegheny and Washington Counties.
On the map, directly under the word Pittsburgh, you'll see the Champion Mine. There is a possibility that is where Thomas Musgrave's son-in-law was employed. It is on the northeastern edge of McDonald.
As you scroll down, you can click around to various mines but you should look at the Morris Mine, which is close to McDonald, as is the Montour Mine No. 2.
You'll notice that the miners' houses in any particular village or town are identical to one another. Some are one-story, others two. The two-story houses frequently are duplexes, meaning two families living side by side. Many of the houses have been covered with white aluminum or vinyl siding. When they were built, they were wood frame. Later many of them were covered with asphalt shingles (flexible and rubbery). Those shingles were red, green, or yellow. Some looked like brickwork, while others had a hexagonal shape. The aluminum after 1948, when the state of Pennsylvania forced mining companies to sell their housing. Usually the occupants bought them.
Let me know if you find anything on the street names.
Regards,
John :o :o :o
http://patheoldminer.rootsweb.ancestry.com
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Hi Ben: I had a look yesterday at the 1900 census pages for North Fayette Township. There are no street or road names written on the census pages that might help to narrow down where Thomas Musgrave and his daughter's family were living. The population of the township was about 2,500 then. That population was spread over an areas of 25 square miles, and there might have been a dozen or two dozen coal mines in that area in 1900.
John :o :o :o
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Hi Johnnyboy
Many thanks for looking anyway. We know what precinct it was but I assume it was down a dirt track and possibly like one of the houses you described.
What can you tell me about that seemingly partial death index from 1906 present as I dont think it is a complete one.
Ben
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Hi Ben: I come with good news and bad news. Maybe you should have the good news with a Scotch on the rocks or whatever you drink and then follow it up with a double Scotch or two of whatever you drink for the bad news.
Here's the good news. The State of Pennsylvania has just this week put its death indexes for the years 1906-1961 online. And they're free to search.
Here's the bad news. My first search was for an entry for Thomas Musgrave in the years 1906 through 1913. I couldn't find him, Ben.
I looked under Musgrave, Musgrove, Musgreave, Mussgrave, Mossgrave, etc., etc., etc., etc.
I did find Elizabeth Sutherland in the 1911 index, but she was listed under "Southerland." That's why I searched as many variations of Musgrave as I could think up.
I'm really sorry, Ben. I was hoping to finally pin the old gent down. My feeling now is that he must have passed away between 1900 and 1906 and that he didn't make it into anyone's records. Not Allegheny County, where he and his daughter's family were enumerated in the 1900 U.S. census. Not Washington County, whose pre-1906 death records I searched at the county courthouse. Not anywhere in Pennsylvania.
I posted information about the Pennsylvania death records (with links to the records) in a thread on the U.S. Resources and Offers board. I think you should have a search yourself. My post is at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,582973.0.html
I still think we'll eventually find when Thomas died.
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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Hi Johnnyboy
Thanks anyway.
Could he have still died in Allegheny or Washington? Are those 1900-1905 records complete at all or could some deaths have gone unrecorded in the Allegheny or Washington pre 1906 deaths?
When you say not anywhere in PA do you mean he died outside the state or will we have to find another way of finding a death record, ie an obituary, will or any electoral rolls and see when he stopped appearing?
Ben
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Hi Ben: Thomas could have died in either Washington County or Allegheny County before 1906 without his death being reported to any authority. I'm not sure that there was even a requirement before 1906 that deaths be recorded by any authority, that is the county. I don't believe that towns and cities were ever obligated to keep records, though the city of Pittsburgh did before 1906.
When I wrote "not anywhere in Pennsylvania," I simply meant that the records starting from 1906 cover the entire state. The death indexes now online list the place where a death occurred. I found no record of anyone named Thomas Musgrave dying anywhere in the State of Pennsylvania in the years I searched.
The possibility that he might have died outside of Pennsylvania is very remote. But you can never say never.
A quirk of geography puts McDonald and North Fayette Township less than 25 miles directly east of Pennsylvania's border with the states of Ohio and West Virginia. A narrow panhandle of West Virginia sticks up northward and comes between Pennsylvania and Ohio. That panhandle is only five or so miles wide, and then you cross the Ohio River into Ohio.
In 1900-1910, twenty five miles was a lot more difficult to travel than it is today.
Unless Thomas had become naturalized as a U.S. citizen, I doubt if he would have been on any electoral rolls. And unless he owned property, a will was not likely. His affairs would have been settled privately by the family. But I'll keep both of those in mind for the next time I visit Pennsylvania. It's easy enough to check with the appropriate offices at the Washington County and Allegheny County courthouses.
In the meantime, you might want to search the death indexes on your own for Thomas. Maybe there was an alternate spelling that I overlooked. The more eyes, the better.
John :o :o :o
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Hi Ben: Just had an idea. When you began this thread, you posted information from the Robinson Run Cemetery about Elizabeth Sutherland. The cemetery records were on the USGenWeb project's webpage for Allegheny County, Pennsylvania.
On the same website there are obituaries posted, transcribed from the McDonald newspaper. I believe Elizabeth Sutherland's obituary was among those transcribed. You should go to the site and find the e-mail address for the lady who is doing those transcriptions and contact her. Maybe she can do a search for Thomas Musgrave in the newspaper microfilms. Or she might have some ideas about further searching for his death.
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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Hi Johnnyboy
I am sure we will find a record somewhere of his death. I go with out thesis that he died inbetween June 1900 and December 1905. It does look like he was buried in Robinson Run Cemetery.
His brothers died inbetween the ages of 70-76. So I would assume Thomas died aged about 75 then. So he may have died 1902-1904ish.
Obituaries are our next source. Or if anyone else has family bibles of the Musgraves which list his death. I wonder if his death in PA was mentioned in any English newspapers at his home county?
Could he have appeared in directories if not electoral rolls?
Also you say that some 1900-1905 deaths in Allegheny and Washington were not reported?
Ben
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Hi Johnnyboy
Pennsylvania have just released a lot of probate records but they are indexed in a funny way such as estate record, proceedings and that. This may hold they key to nailing Thomas Musgrave's death, or any info on the wills for the Saix, Wilson and such may lead to a clue about Thomas Musgrave.
Ben
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Hi Johnnyboy
Pennsylvania have just released a lot of probate records but they are indexed in a funny way such as estate record, proceedings and that. This may hold they key to nailing Thomas Musgrave's death, or any info on the wills for the Saix, Wilson and such may lead to a clue about Thomas Musgrave.
Ben
Hi Ben: Very often, when a person had no property to speak of, there would be no reason to file a will. Given Thomas' age and the fact that his son-in-law worked at a coal mine, I'm not sure there would be any property to deal with.
That said, I had a quick look at the "Pennsylvania, Probate Records, 1683-1994" on FamilySearch.org They are ordered first by county. Since McDonald was partly in Washington County and partly in Allegheny County, you would want to search the records for both of those places.
If you're going to search the records, I suggest that you start with Allegheny County, since Thomas Musgrave was enumerated in Allegheny County in the 1900 census and seems to have died before 1910.
To search the records, click first on the "Browse Images" link to the right of the title "Pennsylvania, Probate Records, 1683-1994." You will then get a list of counties in Pennsylvania. Click on "Allegheny."
Pennsylvania used/uses a bizarre index that is based on the letters in the first name. So in the estate indexes for Allegheny, scroll down and click on "Estate index 1788-1971 surname M, first names S-Z" First name Thomas would be in the section starting at Image #82.
Unfortunately, that's as far as I have time to decipher today. You also want to search the Orphan's Court records for Allegheny County, since wills and such were dealt with there, too.
John :o :o :o
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Hi
It still feels a privilege to have a direct ancestor on the 1900 US census living in a pretty rural area in Pennsylvania.
I cannot seem to find a will of any of them and as they were just coal miners they probably rented property rather than owned it.
As said it is strongly possible Thomas died inbetween June 1900 and December 1905.
I want to access the 1940 census for Pennsylvania by name index so I can find Margaret Miller formerly Prosser and Musgrave and the Saix family and Thomas W Wilson.
Ben
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Hi
Not much more to report on Thomas Musgrave's death. It is now a case of waiting for more obituaries and such to be posted for the area. I am sure there is some record somewhere.
I wonder if any kind soul could perhaps send me a copy of Margaret Miller in the 1920 and 1930 census please? In 1920 she is with husband William H Miller in Allegheny, PA and in 1930 in Scott, Allegheny PA. Born England. If anyone is able to then if they send me a PM I can then reply with my email address.
Ben
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Hi Chatters Just because Thomas could not be found on the 1906 death registry at the dept of health does not mean he didn't die in 1906. My gr grandfather died in a local hospital in 1934. I have all of the records even his obit and news articles about him being hit by the car, where he is buried and a photo of the tombstone, but when I sent to the state for his death cert so I could verify his parents, the state sent me a letter back saying they had no record of his death. According to the state of Pennsylvania he is 166 years old. All record keeping is subject to omissions not deliberate but it does happen.
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Hi Ben: I wanted to let you know that I have hunted down and contacted a church in McDonald, Pennsylvania whose pastor (I think it was Rev. W. D. Irons) seems to have officiated at the funeral of Thomas Musgrave's daughter Elizabeth Sutherland in 1911. The person I spoke with is going to search the church records to see if there is any death or burial information for Thomas Musgrave, as well as for other family members.
But this is something of a long shot. I re-read Elizabeth Sutherland's obituary and noticed that there was not a church funeral. Instead, the obit says, "The funeral services were held at the SAIX [Elizabeth's daughter] home in charge of the Rev. W. D. IRONS."
Rev. Irons might only have been asked to officiate at the funeral and no record for the church might have been kept. Perhaps he or another minister did the same with Thomas Musgrave's funeral, with no record surviving from his funeral.
And to beansgram: Thanks for the post. Good to bear that possibility in mind.
John :o :o :o
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Thomas originally emigrated in 1886 but then returned to England for a short while and it looks like he returned to America in April 1892 aboard the Lord Clive. The passenger list index lists a Thomas Musgrave farmer, and a Thomas Musgrave, miner, on the same voyage but I think they could be from different indexes for the same voyage.
The info I found for my Thomas is "Thomas Musgrave, miner, aged 64, widower, came to join 2 daughters in Penna", landed April 19th 1892 on the Lord Clive. So that is my ancestor as it ties in with the info I have on him. He returned to America in 1892 for good this time.
I checked the index and there was only 1 Thomas Musgrave on that voyage, slightly younger, aged 61 and said he was a farmer. I think this is probably my Thomas Musgrave though, he gave slightly different info or it was misheard. The back of the passenger list does mention an additional index elsewhere.
Ben.
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Hi Ben: I wanted to let you know that I have hunted down and contacted a church in McDonald, Pennsylvania whose pastor (I think it was Rev. W. D. Irons) seems to have officiated at the funeral of Thomas Musgrave's daughter Elizabeth Sutherland in 1911. The person I spoke with is going to search the church records to see if there is any death or burial information for Thomas Musgrave, as well as for other family members.
But this is something of a long shot. I re-read Elizabeth Sutherland's obituary and noticed that there was not a church funeral. Instead, the obit says, "The funeral services were held at the SAIX [Elizabeth's daughter] home in charge of the Rev. W. D. IRONS."
Rev. Irons might only have been asked to officiate at the funeral and no record for the church might have been kept. Perhaps he or another minister did the same with Thomas Musgrave's funeral, with no record surviving from his funeral.
And to beansgram: Thanks for the post. Good to bear that possibility in mind.
John :o :o :o
Hi Johnnyboy.
I shall keep that in mind. Thanks anyway.
I shall not give up hope though, maybe there is an obit lying somewhere or even a directory, which could be looked at to see when he last appears on it. This will be diff to electoral rolls as I dont think he ever voted as he was never a citizen, not to my knowledge anyway.
Ben
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Hi again Ben: Just occurred to me that one way to help confirm that Thomas Musgrave returned to England would be to search the passenger lists for people returning to the U.K. Those lists begin in 1890, and Thomas might be in them. The index card for his return to the U.S. in 1892 refers to someone being "here" [in the U.S.] for four years. That probably is referring to Thomas, since the daughters, who arrived in the U.S. with Thomas in 1886, would have been resident for six years.
Doing the math: If Thomas arrived in the U.S. in 1886, as you say, and he returned from a visit home in 1892 and stated on his return to the U.S. that he had previously been in the U.S. for four years, then subtracting four years from the total of six elapsed years, that means he might have left the U.S. for England in 1890 or even 1891 and might be on a passenger list. It's worth a look.
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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Hi again Ben: Just occurred to me that one way to help confirm that Thomas Musgrave returned to England would be to search the passenger lists for people returning to the U.K. Those lists begin in 1890, and Thomas might be in them. The index card for his return to the U.S. in 1892 refers to someone being "here" [in the U.S.] for four years. That probably is referring to Thomas, since the daughters, who arrived in the U.S. with Thomas in 1886, would have been resident for six years.
Doing the math: If Thomas arrived in the U.S. in 1886, as you say, and he returned from a visit home in 1892 and stated on his return to the U.S. that he had previously been in the U.S. for four years, then subtracting four years from the total of six elapsed years, that means he might have left the U.S. for England in 1890 or even 1891 and might be on a passenger list. It's worth a look.
Regards,
John :o :o :o
Hi Johnny
We have confirmed he did return to England by his 1892 card for his trip back again to the US as I am sure he gave extra info on another register on the Lord Clive which ended up on that index card, but it would be good to find when he did go back to England. Also I never thought that "here, 4 years" on the card may be Thomas, I just assumed it was his daughters. Just to add, he only went with his youngest daughter in 1886. The eldest emigrated in 1881 aged 29, 5 years before Thomas went to America with Margaret, his youngest.
I have just looked again at the card and it says "To 2 daughters. Here 4 years" The H in here is in a capital letter which indicates it is something separate from the "To 2 daughters" bit so it probably was Thomas, here 4 years. I dont know what the PPD abbreviation after it is.
Ben
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Hi Johnny
We have confirmed he did return to England by his 1892 card for his trip back again to the US as I am sure he gave extra info on another register on the Lord Clive which ended up on that index card, but it would be good to find when he did go back to England. Also I never thought that "here, 4 years" on the card may be Thomas, I just assumed it was his daughters. Just to add, he only went with his youngest daughter in 1886. The eldest emigrated in 1881 aged 29, 5 years before Thomas went to America with Margaret, his youngest.
I have just looked again at the card and it says "To 2 daughters. Here 4 years" The H in here is in a capital letter which indicates it is something separate from the "To 2 daughters" bit so it probably was Thomas, here 4 years. I dont know what the PPD abbreviation after it is.
Ben
Hi Ben: I suggested finding his return to England in the passenger lists in case there is information about him that you don't have. The U.K, though, didn't seem to require the information that the individual U.S. states and then the U.S. government wanted from entering passengers.
P.P.D. could be almost anything. It might have been something to do with either the state of Pennsylvania or the city of Philadelphia.
John :o :o :o
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Hi Johnny
We have confirmed he did return to England by his 1892 card for his trip back again to the US as I am sure he gave extra info on another register on the Lord Clive which ended up on that index card, but it would be good to find when he did go back to England. Also I never thought that "here, 4 years" on the card may be Thomas, I just assumed it was his daughters. Just to add, he only went with his youngest daughter in 1886. The eldest emigrated in 1881 aged 29, 5 years before Thomas went to America with Margaret, his youngest.
I have just looked again at the card and it says "To 2 daughters. Here 4 years" The H in here is in a capital letter which indicates it is something separate from the "To 2 daughters" bit so it probably was Thomas, here 4 years. I dont know what the PPD abbreviation after it is.
Ben
Hi Ben: I suggested finding his return to England in the passenger lists in case there is information about him that you don't have. The U.K, though, didn't seem to require the information that the individual U.S. states and then the U.S. government wanted from entering passengers.
P.P.D. could be almost anything. It might have been something to do with either the state of Pennsylvania or the city of Philadelphia.
John :o :o :o
Hi John.
I shall certainly look to see any arrivals in England from 1890 or 1891. When he returned it does seem he said "4 years" as in 4 years before so if he emigrated in September1886 it was about 1890 that he took a trip back to England. He must have stayed for a year or so before returning to the US in 1892.
Ben
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I have solved the mystery over the volume number now. The extra info Thomas gave was in a volume called 1 -A1. I did some checking and searched some other passengers on the same voyage on the Lord Clive in April 1892, and some of them gave extra info than what was on the passenger list such as name or number of relatives in America and the volume number for those said 1-A1 so there was an additional list. On the Card Index they appear twice, once for the passenger list and once for the additional info they gave such as any relatives. Another mystery sorted and put to bed.
And another snippet of info in the life of Thomas Musgrave.
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Came across these obits for John and Mary Saix - didn't read 25 pages to see if you already had them
though. So better twice than not at all.
Mary Saix
The Pittsburgh Press
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
21 May 1962, Mon • Page 33
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/122086577/the-pittsburgh-press/
John Saix
Pittsburgh Sun-Telegraph
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
10 Aug 1941, Sun • Page 36
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/122086773/pittsburgh-sun-telegraph/
Sandra
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Obit for daughter Lillian Rahner
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
28 Apr 1986, Mon • Page 8
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/122087112/pittsburgh-post-gazette/
Obit John T Saix
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
2 Sep 1993, Thu • Page 21
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/122087550/pittsburgh-post-gazette/
Sandra
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Obit Berdina Mack
Tampa Bay Times
St. Petersburg, Florida
6 May 1983, Fri • Page 41
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/122087976/tampa-bay-times/
Obit Thelma Hunt
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
27 Aug 2001, Mon • Page 17
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/122088202/pittsburgh-post-gazette/
Sandra
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Came across these obits for John and Mary Saix - didn't read 25 pages to see if you already had them
though. So better twice than not at all.
Mary Saix
The Pittsburgh Press
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
21 May 1962, Mon • Page 33
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/122086577/the-pittsburgh-press/
John Saix
Pittsburgh Sun-Telegraph
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
10 Aug 1941, Sun • Page 36
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/122086773/pittsburgh-sun-telegraph/
Sandra
Thanks Sandra for the info. Yes, always better to double up than nothing at all.