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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Flintshire => Wales => Flintshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: warkworth on Sunday 30 May 10 19:41 BST (UK)
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Can you help me?
My great-great grandparents William and Mary Wetherell moved to the Stables in Ysceifiog from Cheshire between 1847 and 1849, when their daughter Mary was born. Two other children born at Ysceifiog are known to me: George and Albert, born in 1854. By 1856, the family was in Middleham, North Yorkshire. We have not yet found any member of the family in the 1861 census.
William was a horse trainer / racing groom.
According to the Ysceifiog MIs, two children, William Alfred and George were buried in the churchyard in 1852 and 1853 respectively. The first was unknown to me - he is evidently not their first child, also William, who appears in the 1851 census and survived for many years after.
Would someone be kind enough to look up Wetherell (or variant) entries in the parish register between 1847 and 1856 for me. I hope to account for the mysterious William Alfred and two (at least) children missing from the future record.
Very many thanks
Warkworth
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Hello
I don't know if you have read this post already but it relates to the stables in Ysceifiog and might be of interest to you although the family names at a glance dont appear to match your family lived in perhaps one stable and the others in the other.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,415040.0.html
Hope it is of interest.
Sarah
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Sarah
Many thanks (belatedly). I hadn't seen all this exchange of posts, but when I first asked for help locating the Stables, your original reply was very helpful. I'm now pretty sure of the background. I assume my great-great grandfather may have been employed by the Mostyns at that point, but I can't, of course, be certain. I've drawn a blank in an online search of the Mostyn family's records.
There remains the mystery of his disappearing children... and the one we didn't know about.
Warkworth
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Hello,
Ysceifiog baptisms for the children of William & Mary Wetherall. Racing Stables.
Trainer of Horses.
March 20 1848. Mary.
July 22 1850. George.
Jan 15 1852. Alfred.
Dec 16 1852. Ellinor.
Burials.
Alfred Wetherall. New Stables. Jan 21 1852. Infant.
George Wetherall. Racecourse. March 9 1853. Age, Two years.
Paul.
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Paul
This is fantastic. Thank you very much indeed for your trouble.
Regards
Joyce
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This is not really linked to the Wetheralls, but I thought I`d post it anyway.
Liverpool Mercury etc (Liverpool, England), Tuesday, April 25, 1848;
Births, Deaths, Marriages and Obituaries .
Died April 17 at Mostyn Racing Stables near Holywell, Mr John Blenkhorn training groom to the Hon H. E. Ll Mostyn M.P.
Few men have attained higher respect, or been more esteemed for
probity and honour.
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Thank you, Wilcoxon. I think it might be worth looking at the other people occupied in horset things at Ysceifiog. I'm sure their paths crossed many times as they followed the horses.
Joyce
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Dear Warkworth,
I don't know much about family history but I am an enthusiastic if amateur student of racing history. Some years ago I wrote this as an entry in a little biographical dictionary of racehorse trainers in Berkshire and I don't know if it's of any use:-
"WEATHERALL William (c1803-1881). William Weatherall is listed as training at Upper Lambourn for much of the 1860s. He was a Berkshire subscriber to the Racing Calendar in 1868 and 1869. Weatherall worked for the Hambleton trainer Robert Hesseltine, before becoming private trainer for several years at Delamere Forest to Mr Worthington - they had 4 horses in 1844 and 1848 - who gave him permission at the end of the latter year to go public. In the early 1850s he was training a small string (e.g. 6 horses in 1850) as a public trainer at Mostyn Stables, Hollywell, and acting as clerk of the course at Holywell Racecourse, moving on in 1854 to Middleham. Two years later he was handling 4 horses and saddled the winner of the Portland Handicap. In 1858 and 1859 he was engaged as private trainer in Ireland to Lord Waterford's stable at Curraghmore in succession to Richard Prince but his employer was killed in the hunting field in March 1859 and his vast stud - the largest and most successful in Ireland - was sold soon afterwards. Weatherall trained no less than 37 winners for him in 1858. In 1864 he moved to the old yard at Upper Lambourn where John Prince had once trained for Mr Merry which had stabling for 24 horses and advertised for new owners with little success. He had 8 horses in 1865 and half this the following year while operating as a public trainer. In 1868 he had a string of 12. By 1869 he was at East Ilsley with 4 horses. In 1870 having moved to Richmond he advertised for owners or as a job as a private trainer. William Weatherall died at Beverley on 21 January 1881 aged 77. [His name is sometimes spelt Wetherell and other variations]."
If there are any points arising from this I'd be happy to answer them. His spellings varied widely in Ruff, Bell's Life, Sporting Life and in the Bentinck Fund reports - he was, of course, as I expect you know a Bentinck pensioner during his final years.
Yrs, etc,
Ramptonlyles
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Dear Ramptonlyles
I am dumbstruck! I never hoped to get so much detailed information on William. I am immensely grateful to you - and if your interest in horseracing runs to betting, I wish you many winners!
Can't wait to tell his other descendants, albeit the few that we know of.
Many, many thanks
Joyce
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Ramptonlyles
Now that I've recovered a bit, you may be interested to know that William's children who we know to have survived childhood all stayed in the business. Arhtur, my great-grandfather, and William, the eldest child, were training grooms. Charles was at one point a "commission agent". Albert, and I think you may be more interested in him, was a jockey and reputedly rode in the Grand National. He is sighted in Newmarket, Beverley, Pontefract and the Fylde area.
Your account of William explains why we cannot find the family in the 1861 census - he must, as we suspected, still have been in Ireland.
Yours
Joyce
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Dear "Warkworth",
Many thanks for your kind notes and confirming what I had suspected, that the various Wetherells I had come across in racing history over the years were related. One, incidentally, rode the winner of the 1899 Royal Hunt Cup. In addition I know of an Edward who trained at Beverley,etc, - whether he's connected I don't know.
I think I should explain Holywell because of its superb turf was in its time a famous racing centre with several stables based there. Sadly unlike Middleham for one reason or another this all came to an end as did Holywell Racecourse - it ceased in 1852 so I suppose Mr Wetherell would have been its last clerk of the course. In racing history terms I would say he was a minor player, but an important minor player. I would think he made money in his time but as with most people in racing the difficulty is in keeping it! [I speak as a gambler]. The most famous of the Holywell trainers was John Blenkhorn as mentioned above by one of your correspondents who trained the 1835 St Leger winner for Mr (later Ld) Mostyn) but "Honest John" was employed as Mostyn's private trainer while I would guess Mr W rented the stable in his own right - Mostyn lived to a great age but he (like most owners) faded out of racing. There's no money in racing though I might add commission agents who played a very important role before betting shops were legalised could do better than most! In passing Ld Waterford would probably have been in a strait-jacket had he not been a peer; his various trainers must have had an interesting time. There weren't trainers' championships in those days but had there been Mr W would have been champion trainer in Ireland. After his death I see the Bentinck committee awarded "Mrs Mary Weatherell" a pension two-thirds that of her husband's but they later altered the spelling to yours so I shall use that in future.
Yrs, etc,
Ramptonlyles
had there
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Well done Ramptonlyles.
Excellent results for Warkworth. Pity my Mark Jones wasn`t as famous. :)
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Have you any pictures of Holywell racecourse Ramptonlyles? I am particularly interested in the kennels which was part of the complex.
Thanks Sarah
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Dear Ramptonlyles
Thak you for all this wonderful information. I'll digest it and see how it relates to what we know about our own Wetherells.
Re Edward. Interestingly, my great-grandfather Arthur seems to have called himself Arthur Edwad or even just Edward. (I assume it is Arthur who appears as Edward, a training groom at The Park, Walkington, in 1881, though he claims to have been born at Holywell. A was actually born at Middleham. One of his sons calls him Arthur Edward on his marriage certificate).
There was another Wetherell horse trainer called, I think, Thomas, living in the same street as W and M, but I don't think there's a family connection. I'd need to go back and check him out.
The pension to Mary would explain why she is referred to as an annuitant after W's death.
I'm now rushing to email Albert's descendant in New Zealand. He will be very excited, too.
Thank you again.
Joyce
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Dear Rah1980,
About Holywell Racecourse. As I said I am an amateur in this field. The authority on dead racecourses is Chris Pitt, racing journalist and author of (amongst others) "A long time gone" which covers racecourses which expired after 1900. I nicked the date 1852 from an appendix inside listing earlier departures. If material is available he is the person to contact. Most of the early smaller racecourses tended to have temporary stands at the best as they were usually used only once a year and often the actual course might vary a bit year from year but whether this applied to Holywell I wouldn't know.
Yrs, etc,
Ramptonlyles