RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: catherinebryant on Wednesday 26 May 10 19:54 BST (UK)
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HI
Do I just have to accept that my ancestors, known to be living in 'living vans' on common land in 1911 might not appear on any other census (I can't find them)? or is there any other way I can trace them back?
Thanks
Cathy
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As far as I am aware they tried to list everyone on the night of the census.
I have even found one (name and age are correct) where the address is given as
"homeless person reported by the police in a shed off Cadmore Lane N.Side."
If they were living in vans they may have had issues with persons of authority and given false info. Maybe ???
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I have a distant rellie who was living in a barn in Bletchingdon, Oxfordshire in the 1851 census and she was listed as a tramp. Gosh look how outspoken they were then. Mary Brain her name was.
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Or a family living in a tent at the side of side in 1871 in Great Eversden including children ages 4,3 and 1
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I would think some slipped through the net though.
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you are right, Coombs, see the brick wall Royd and I are battling with in our current Scavenger Hunt - helped by some stalwart Rootschatters - with our travelling Cork family, seemingly totally absent from the 1851 census.... >:(
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My 3xgreat grandfather vanished in the 1881 census but is on the 1871 and 1891 censuses in the same area of Essex. Maybe he got drunk on census night and hid in the behind a haystack of an old barn. ;D
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In 1851 all that enumerators were instructed to do was to insert in one of their summary tables the number of persons sleeping in barns, sheds, tents or in the open air, "or who from any other cause, although within the district, have not been enumerated as inmates of any dwelling house."
The censuses were not carried out with family history in mind ;D they were carried out for statistical purposes to find out the numbers of the population in various categories, occupations etc. etc. and the results were published for each census.
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Thanks Stan, I was looking fruitlessly for that quote with IgorStrav's thread in mind. I've got a shedload ;D of people I can't find in 1841 because of this, and although some of 'em turn up in 1851, mostly in lodging houses, there are still several missing.
Of course 1841 is worse in this respect as the census was taken in June, and most travellers would have been on the road.
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That is why they amended the census dates to be end of March or beginning of April to record travellers more.
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OH had 2xGreatgrandfather,Dad & sisters ,on the 1841 in Shornden Barn,St Leonards.
On the 1851 2 sister`s & their families in Tents at Netherfield,Sussex.
Omega
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The months of March and April were generally chosen because this was considered to be the cross-over point between maximum daylight and minimal residential mobility. Any earlier in the year and there would not have been enough daylight for the enumerator to carry out his rounds; any later in the year and many people would have been absent from their homes for various reasons, including harvesting and holidaying.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/08rn/
Stan
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I have a surname in a tree Botten which is allegedly a gypsy name. The family lived in Sussex.
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Stan, thank you very much for that fascinating information about the logic behind the census date. Makes sense, but I had never thought it through before.
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Thanks Stan, I was looking fruitlessly for that quote with IgorStrav's thread in mind. I've got a shedload ;D of people I can't find in 1841 because of this, and although some of 'em turn up in 1851, mostly in lodging houses, there are still several missing.
Of course 1841 is worse in this respect as the census was taken in June, and most travellers would have been on the road.
I HAVE A JOSEPH SMITH FROM 51 TO 91 CENSUS' BUT NOTHING OF HIM IN THE 41 YOU USUALLY FIND GYPSY/TRAVELLERS AT THE END OF CENSUS AS THE PLACES THE CAMPED/STAYED WERE ON THE EDGE OF THE TOWNS AND VILLAGES. JOSEPH SMITH IS LISTED AS OPEN TENT ON COMMON LAND NEXT TO HIM ON CENSUS IS OUTDOOR SHED WITH A FAMILY AND 4 CHILDREN. I HAVE SOME PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT GYPSIES WHO DISSAPEAR FROM ONE CENSUS TO ANOTHER BUT TURN UP 20 YEARS LATER.
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If someone disappears from a census then reappears later then he may have for some reason missed the census, temporarily emigrated or their entry was missed from the transcriptions of they have been grossly mistranscribed.
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Hope it's ok for a newbie to butt in. My daughter in laws family were 'hawkers' called Brinkley. I found them on the 1881 census. It just said caravan on Cuffley Road, Herts. Soo annoying. His wife's name was Cinderella and she is on the census as Rella. It's so frustrating! ::)
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I have posted a topic on the deciphering forum titled "Comedian."
I have noticed on this thread, travellers van were called living vans, so my question may have been answered.
My ancestors were in a field next to the White Horse pub in Rawtenstall in 1871. I am now trying to find out where a comedian , named Claude Harcourt,would have been preforming at the time of the census in Rawtenstall....All ideas gratefully accepted. Caron ???
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Might some local paper covering the area give you a clue to what Claude was doing there?
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Yes, i have already started to look for some local papers on line, no luck yet .
Caron.
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Trying to find census information seems very hit and miss. I have a copy of the census form filled in by my grandfather John Ernest Whiting stating that he was living in a caravan on Bamforth Street, Penistone Road, Sheffield in 1911 with his wife and two children. However, if you go on the 1911 official census site and search for this, it comes up with nothing. So no wonder we can't find anything at times. ???
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John Earnest Whiting appears in 1911 transcribed as John Earnest Whitney!
Caravan 2, Bamforth Street.
If you click the report transcription change button you can request a change be made. They are really good. I have had changes made to a few people from my family.
Cheryl
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Thanks Cheryl, I'll do that, it's no wonder we can't find people. Finding names is difficult enough as it is. ::)
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There is a folk song recorded sometime before the 1930's that is written about an annual fair at Rawenstall which would be the ideal place for a comedian to perform but I can not find anything about how old this fair is. just an idea thats all. Good luck with your search.
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:D
Happy Christmas everyone.
I`ve got the words to that song.
Also someone has got in touch about "my travellers". The gist is that sometimes they were called Maycock and sometimes Harcourt. Both names are used in the family now !!!! Also the last in a long line of entertainers was the late Geoff Love the band leader.
Caron.