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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Kent => Topic started by: gangus on Friday 21 May 10 08:47 BST (UK)

Title: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: gangus on Friday 21 May 10 08:47 BST (UK)
Can anyone advise what, if any, church records still exist for Saint Mary Magdalene, WOOLWICH circa 1813 please?

I have found the burial of my likely ancestor - Lewis ANGUS bur. 29 Sept 1813, aged 39yrs
It gives his abode as: Bell Watergate

Lewis married 1799 NBL and last confirmed record to date was in HM Tower of London 1811 - ( from an Historical directory).  His wife was Catherine and at least one child John (b. 1800)

I hope to find any further information, e.g. if he was listed in the church records for any other event, christening etc.  This will hopefully confirm or otherwise a 40 year hunt for Lewis's death.

Any guidance appreciated.....

Glenn ANGUS in Australia.
Title: Re: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: Nick29 on Friday 21 May 10 09:27 BST (UK)
The following CD/DVD's are available from the North West Kent FHS......

CD-OR138  Woolwich St Mary Magdalene Registers 1670-1799 £8.00
CD-OR139  St Mary Magdalene Baptisms 1800-1857 £8.00
CD-OR140  St Mary Magdalene Baptisms 1857-1905 £8.00 
CD-OR141  St Mary Magdalene Baptisms 1905-88 & other misc. Baptisms 1873-1959 £8.00
CD-OR142  St Mary Magdalene Burials 1680-94 & 1800-89 £8.00 
CD-OR143  St Mary Magdalene Marriages 1754-1864 £8.00 
CD-OR144  St Mary Magdalene Marriages 1864-1964 £8.00 
CD-OR138/44  St Mary Magdalene Set of 7 above £30.00 
DVD-OR32  St Mary Magdalene DVD Version £30.00

You can get these either direct from the NWKFHS at www.nwkfhs.org.uk  or via GenFair or The Parish Chest at similar prices (the latter two would be easier if paying by credit card from abroad).

Incidentally, Bell Watergate still exists - it's a small lane running down to the river, not far from where the Woolwich Ferry terminal is now.  You can find it on Google Maps.   There aren't any dwellings there now.

P.S. I've done a quick scan of baptisms in St Mary, Magdelene between 1773 and 1775, and can find no references to ANGUS.




Title: Re: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: gangus on Friday 21 May 10 14:14 BST (UK)
Thanks for those sources Nick,
Are you able to indicate what information might be contained for an entry in either the Burials 1800-89 and/or the Bapisms 1800-57 ?   I have a copy of the burial info from Ancestry.com showing name, date, approx age etc... curious if the CD  you suggest would have anything further than that info.    The Bap. one might be the best to see if any other of his children recorded therein.... ?

Glenn
Title: Re: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: nigelo on Saturday 22 May 10 02:40 BST (UK)
For baptisms you will only get what was on the Parish Register - usually just name parents names and date. If you are lucky you "might" get date of birth and fathers occupation. After Sep 1837 you are better to get the birth certificate, as this will have birth address, mother's maiden name etc. Not likely to get information about other children, other than by searching through around their birth dates.

Much the same for burials. You are almost guaranteed NOT get any information about children on either the parish register OR the death certificate. The only place you would get those would be a memorial inscription, obituary or will.
Title: Re: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: gangus on Saturday 22 May 10 03:04 BST (UK)
< Nigelo >
Thanks for that.... if I could even just get lucky with the parents names I would be very happy..... if my mob that would be positive confirmation of what has taken me close on 40 yrs to resolve....

Only need to check baptisms 1801 - 1814 for St Mary Magdalene.....

Regards
Title: Re: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: Nick29 on Saturday 22 May 10 12:31 BST (UK)
Yes, just to confirm what nigelo said - the baptism record on the CD is no different to the one on Ancestry.

Title: Re: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: Valda on Saturday 22 May 10 15:03 BST (UK)
Hi

The registers of St Peter Ad Vincula - the parish church for the Tower of London church are still held at the Tower and have not been indexed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Peter_ad_Vincula_(London)


The connection with the Tower and Woolwich would indicate an army connection. In the case of Woolwich particularly but not exclusively with the Royal Artillery.

Woolwich would be about 6/7 miles down the Thames (less but for the meandering of the river) from the Tower. The Tower is on the north of the Thames, Woolwich on the south bank.


Regards

Valda
Title: Re: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: gangus on Saturday 22 May 10 15:55 BST (UK)
Valda,
Thanks for the geographic information, not being familiar with the area it does give some understanding of distances etc.   

I was fortunate many years back to have obtained a certified copy of the baptism entry from the Chapel Royal of St Peter ad Vincula for John ANGUS - 
' John, son of Lewis and Catharine (of the Artillery) born Decr 26th 1800 -  Bapt Feb 8, 1801'

An 1811 document notes Lewis ANGUS as a clerk in the carriage yard Dept... HM Tower
The trick now is to confirm the death I have for a Lewis ANGUS Sept 1813 with the one in 1811... it is most likely one and the same but I am a stickler for ensuring accuracy.  Plus I hope to maybe find other children btwn 1803 & 1813.... always live in hope.

Regards
Glenn in Australia
Title: Re: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: Valda on Sunday 23 May 10 09:10 BST (UK)
Hi

Considering the Angus family were therefore at the Tower in February 1801 and you know from a directory they were still there in 1811 any other children they had which were baptised would be in St Peter ad Vincula registers?

'....original volume containing of the baptisms (1587-1821), burials (1550-1821) and marriage (1586-1752) registers of the chapel of St Peter ad Vincula held by the Chapel (includes executed prisoners); Rough register of the Chapel, held in the British Library.'


The Royal Carriage Factory was part of the Arsenal at Woolwich. It arrived there in 1803.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Arsenal
http://www.portcities.org.uk/london/server/show/ConFactFile.90/The-Royal-Arsenal.html

http://www.johnsmilitaryhistory.com/woolwich5.html


The offices of Armoury and Ordnance (Ordnance became the more important) were at the Tower of London. The Royal Artillery along with the Royal Engineers were subdivisions of the Board of Ordnance (which was abolished in 1855 and subsumed into the War Office).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_of_Ordnance


You can use the facility 'Get directions' in Google maps to see the distance between the Tower of London and Woolwich arsenal (all Google can now find of the arsenal is the pier - the Arsenal was the triangle behind it)

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4HPEA_en-GBGB236GB236&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

http://www.maps-of-london.com/map-woolwich.htm


Regards

Valda
Title: Re: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: gangus on Sunday 23 May 10 11:56 BST (UK)
Valda,
I considered the probability of the others (if any) to be most likely recorded inSt Peter... but alas my 'inside' contact left many years ago.  My last attempt just got a reply saying the records are not for release... guess I got lucky at least once....    A 2nd child - daughter - was born in 1803 in Glasgow, roughly where Lewis' wife originated... can consider maybe she needed family around at the time....  a long haul but will keep hunting....

Thanks again and will check the links you sent.

Glenn
Title: Re: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: Valda on Sunday 23 May 10 12:29 BST (UK)
Hi

I believe you think this is Lewis' baptism?

LEWIS ANGUS
Christening: 17 DEC 1775 South Leith, Midlothian, Scotland
Father: JOHN ANGUS
Mother: HELEN WINCHESTER


South Leith I believe is now part of Edinburgh.

Considering my lack of knowledge about how common the surname Angus is in Scotland this may very well be a dead end but have you looked at this Prerogative Court of Canterbury will?

Will of Helen Angus, Wife of Edinburgh , Mid Lothian 22 June 1803 PROB 11/1394

There were three other baptisms for the couple in North Leith
John 1779
Thomas 1781
Helen 1786 possible marriage 1805

so the family may well have still been in the Edinburgh area in 1803


You might expect Scottish wills in general to prove in Scotland

http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?r=554&407



Regards

Valda
Title: Re: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: gangus on Monday 24 May 10 07:59 BST (UK)
Yep, that is the other end of the line I am trying to prove.  I have Lewis marrying St Nicholas, Gosforth NBL 7/7/1799 to Catherine SCOTT, by Baans and 'both of this Parish'  I believe it is the same person as in the 1775 Christening SCOTLAND.

I will have to try and check the Scottish wills etc. you mention... more to do and will try and work out how to access them.. Thanks again
Title: Re: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: Valda on Monday 24 May 10 08:06 BST (UK)
Hi

Have you obtained a copy of the PCC will?


http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/power-search.asp?searchType=powersearch


Regards

Valda
Title: Re: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: gangus on Monday 24 May 10 08:16 BST (UK)
Valda,
I have the one of Helen, and likely she was Lewis's mother but nothing in it that really ties things in.....  Once I can establish Lewis marr. 1799 NBL as belonging to the Midlothian family then I can get back many more years.... I am 99.9% sure in my mind he fits in there as well as the death in 1813 Woolwich...but I am a stickler for accuracy before I lay total claim......
Title: Re: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: exessexgirl on Monday 24 May 10 08:42 BST (UK)
Don't know if this is any help  :-\

City of London Burials:
? LEWIS. Date of burial 22 Dec 1813. St Luke Old Street. Age 38 yrs. Approx yr of birth 1775. Address at death -  Workhouse.

Lyn
Title: Re: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: Valda on Monday 24 May 10 12:31 BST (UK)
Hi

This family's surname was Angus. The person buried at St Luke Old Street's surname appears to be Lewis with a first name not known which is perhaps more understandable if they died in the workhouse. It doesn't seem the other way around.


Concerning Helen's will there may have been death duties levelled on it.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=107


The evidence is suggesting Lewis was an artillery officer. Have you tried researching is army career??


Regards

Valda
Title: Re: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: gangus on Monday 24 May 10 12:45 BST (UK)
Valda, I tried many years back using a researcher.... managed to get the full military history of his son John (12th Royal Lancers, 1814-1835) - have heaps of info even including newspaper articles etc. on him - interesting careers after the Army hence the references I managed to locate. 
Alas the researcher couldn't find a thing on Lewis ANGUS.

A couple of certificates circa 1852'ish (wifes death and another one) mentions him as having been a Military Officer.
Had discounted that for a while once I found him recorded as a clerk in HM Tower of London 1811... then the new info re death at Woolwich and that there was the Military College for the Artillery there has me re-thining along those lines again.

I now have the marriage of Helen ANGUS and John GRIEVE - on the Sabbath 7/7/1776 which pre-dates where I am at presently.   Coincidence that my Lewis marr.  7/7/1799 - must be something about 7th July  :)

If all else fails I hope to retire in about 5 yrs so a good excuse for a holiday in the UK !


Title: Re: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: Valda on Monday 24 May 10 18:11 BST (UK)
Hi

The Royal Military Academy at Woolwich was established in 1741 to train commissioned officers for the Royal Artillery, Engineers, and later the Royal Corps of Signals.

The history of the academy is at the Royal Engineers Museum website

http://www.remuseum.org.uk/articles/rem_article_academy.htm

I believe the records are held in series WO149 (1764-1939) at the Royal Military Academy at Sandhurst (you can email the curator)

http://www.army.mod.uk/training_education/training/17885.aspx


British Officers' Commissions

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=144


British Army: Officers' Records 1660-1913 (artillery and engineers came under the Board of Odnance until 1855 not the War Office)

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=13



Regards

Valda
Title: Re: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: JoanBorrowscale on Friday 25 November 11 15:59 GMT (UK)
I have found recently the long lost baptism of my ancester Eliza Isherwood  Bap. 6 June 1802
daughter of James and Elizabeth St. Mary Magdalene Woolwich.  I have a copy baptism from on-line, and wonder if James and Elizabeth married in St. Mary Magdalene
Could anyone help please.

Joan Borrowscale,   Liverpool
Title: Re: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: Nick29 on Friday 25 November 11 16:14 GMT (UK)
Do you know the rough date of their marriage ?   The registers are not indexed, so it's a lot of pages of handwriting (often badly written or photographed) to trawl through  :-\
Title: Re: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: JoanBorrowscale on Friday 25 November 11 17:16 GMT (UK)
No I'm afraid I don't know that.  Maybe Eliza was the first, or the last.....
Never mind -  I will see what I can find on Ancestry or Family Search.
Thanks anyway
Joan
Title: Re: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: Valda on Friday 25 November 11 20:16 GMT (UK)
Hi

The registers for St Mary Magdalene Woolwich have been indexed and transcribed (as well as on Ancestry)

http://www.nwkfhs.org.uk/pub_riv.htm


Woolwich was an important area for the military so a transitory population.


Regards

Valda
Title: Re: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: JoanBorrowscale on Friday 25 November 11 20:28 GMT (UK)
Thank you Valda -   Yes, I obtained the baptism of Eliza Isherwood, on-line, so I will look at the marriages. 
Much obliged
Joan
Title: Re: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: Nick29 on Saturday 26 November 11 10:48 GMT (UK)
That's useful to know, Valda.  I knew that the baptisms for St Mary Magdelene had been indexed and transcribed, but I didn't know they had done the marriages as well  :)
Title: Re: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: JohnRichardGarrett on Monday 05 March 12 21:48 GMT (UK)
   BY ANY CHANCE, WOULD ANYONE BE RESEARCHING GARRETTs at ST MARY MAGDALENE IN THE LATE 1700s????
   MY GG GRANDFATHER WILLIAM JAMES GARRETT WAS BORN ON JUNE 7, 1801 AND BAPTISED AT THIS CHURCH.
   HIS PARENTS WERE JOHN & MARY GARRETT.
 THIS IS MY "BRICK WALL".
   ANY HELP WOULD BE MOST APPRECIATED.
    THANK YOU,

JOHN RICHARD GARRETT
Title: Re: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: casalguidi on Monday 05 March 12 22:08 GMT (UK)
Could we refrain from typing all in capitals please ;)

Casalguidi :)
Title: Re: Woolwich, St. Mary Magdalene - 1813 records
Post by: JohnRichardGarrett on Monday 05 March 12 22:57 GMT (UK)
   sorry about that.
at 75, my eyes aren't that great.