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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: eyshame on Thursday 20 May 10 17:37 BST (UK)
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Hi, i am planning a trip to Ireland in two weeks' time and would so appreiciate any help offered before i go.
I am interested in a family by the name of Carton who were in Wicklow but i don't think they originated there so would love to find out where they did originate from in Ireland.
My Catherine Carton was born around 1829 and married a John Kavanagh, don't know what year but son Thomas Kavanagh was born 1865 Brockage Wicklow.
I believe Catherine's farther was a Ralph Carton.
I know someone on here is looking for the name of Carton but not my Carton's.
Can anyone help me to narrow the field before i leave for Ireland in the hopes of finding my family and fingers crossed, seeing where they lived etc.
I would so appreicate any help at all on this.
Regards
E.
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Only 1 Ralph Carton appears in Griffith's Valuation- in Brockagh townland. Of course this may not be Catherine's father but Ralph is probably not a ommon first name.
www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml
P.S.- think Thomas Kavanagh's birthplace is probably this same place- Brockagh not Brockage. (Brockagh means 'townland of the badgers').
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All I can suggest is to start off with the details you already have, and follow them up further - e.g. search the parish registers that you found the baptism for Thomas, and work back to see if you can find a marriage for John and Catherine. Hopefully this will give more details on them - but be aware that some registers can be very basic.
If they moved to the parish from somewhere else, It could be difficult to work out where they came from originally, but probably the next step would be to check adjacent parishes.
As aghadowey just mentioned the correct spelling is Brockagh - and it's located just north of the town of Laragh.
Shane
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I.G.I. lists another son, Lawrence, born 25 June 1866 Annamoe, Co. Wicklow (page 1020 in civil register). Thomas's birth is on page 1035 in civil register.
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Thanks, Yes i was told that Ralph is not a common name in Ireland but was told there were two Ralphs listed in that valuation and mine was the one with only one Catherine born 1829.
I was really hoping someone could look up some information for me as i won't have much time in Ireland so i need to narrow the search.
Thanks E.
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Aghadowey, where/how did you find that so quickly? are the brothers from the same parents? Is there a brother John born about 1870 too? I had heard mention of a Lawrence but neve been able to conect him to my Thomas born 1865.
I am excited at your find. Where do i look please. not sure what IGI is so link please and my any thanks too.
E.
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The IGI is available on www.familysearch.org.
Thomas and Lawrence are the only two children included for those parents, but the records are not always complete, and births before civil registration started in 1864 may not be included.
Shane
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Thanks Shanew147, you're wonderful. Please if you find anyhting else please, please let me know.
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there's another collection on the pilot site on familysearch that's a little easier to search - see Extracted Births (http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=collectionDetails&c=fs%3A1584963)
Click advanced on the bottom left of the search screen, and then see screenshot below for details of the search parameters required to show Lawrence and Thomas. You can click on each of the results to see more details.
do you know what religion the family was ?
Shane
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Thanks, you are good. The family were Catholics.
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I think the first steps are probably searching for the marriage of Catherine & John, and depending on the details found on that, searching for Catherine's baptism and her parents marriage. Unfortunately there are no Wicklow marriages available online at the moment.
It would probably be worth confirm the exact address for the family by a birth cert for Thomas but based on the Griffith's record mentioned the Carton family lived in the townland of Brockagh, which contains the town of Laragh.
for RC Parish records :
Civil Parish : Derrylossary
RC Parish : Glendalough
Townland : Brockagh
Details for this parish are available on Microfilm Pos. 6474 in the National Library in Dublin and contain baptisms from June 1807, and marriages from Jan 1808 (some missing dates between 1838 and 1840).
Ralph Carton is listed on Griffiths at site 29f, and the details are not very clear on the maps, but site 29 is just over 1km to the west of the centre of Laragh town, and just before the Y junction. The on the other side of the road is listed as a Lawrence Kavanagh - possibly a relation to John ?
Shane
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Shane i bought Thomas' birth cert but it dosn't list an address. I sent to Dublin for it.
I will be in Dublin for a short time, a few hours only, but happy to go look for info if time permits.
I am totally unable to find brother John born 1870ish in both Ireland and England. I am wondering how to follow Lawrence and see when and where he died, I am guessing ireland as he is not lised on the 1871 England census.
Did you get to look at the map? I think Lawrence s probably brother or maybe father of John born, according to the census records around 1831 and Catherine Carton 1829.
I owe you so much thanks for yoru help Shane.
E.
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i bought Thomas' birth cert but it dosn't list an address. I sent to Dublin for it.
All Irish civil birth certificates will give a place of birth- usually just the townland although in towns and cities it would probably list a street (with or without a house number).
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You can see a map of the area on the Griffith's website mentioned earlier. Enter Ralph Carton, and Wicklow and he's the only result.
With a common surname like Kavanagh it could be difficult finding later details on Lawrence without knowing further information. There's a few births of a John around 1870 in the right registration district (Rathdrum) but as it's a large area there's no way to know if he's part of the same family without ordering a birth cert to check the parents.
p.s.there's two more Kavanagh close to the Carton property on Griffiths - Denis & John
Shane
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Birth Cert says;
Birth registered in the district of Annamoe Reg district of Rathdrum Wicklow.
Place of birth Brockagh.
Father was a Miner (he couldn't write)
Address of father and mother are Brockagh.
Does that help at all?
Ralph Carton - i was told there were two Ralph Cartons listed for Wicklow. One was married twice with daughter Catherine born 1852 while my Catherine was born 1829 to another Ralph.
Since Lawrence isn't lsited on the 1871 census i guess he died there in Ireland as a baby/toddler, maybe up to aged 4 years.
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Brockagh is the name of the townland, which would fit with the general area on those Griffith's records.
Shane
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Great, but does that get me any nearer to the family do you think?
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Great, but does that get me any nearer to the family do you think?
It confirms the townland, and therefore the parish.. which is what you need to go back further. Unfortunately the address is too vague to help locate an exact property for them, but the properties of the previous generations can probably be located accurately using the Griffith's map, once you are certain of their names.
Shane
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I just had a look back at the previous thread on the family at : Kavanagh and Carton of Brockage Wicklow (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,449757.0.html)... did you ever try that possible baptism record for Catherine in Rathdrum to see if it matched the details you have ?
Shane
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Have re-read that link and did look at Griffiths but got totally lost as i didn't understand what it was telling me.
Lost about possible baptism record for Catherine so no i didn't.
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Griffith's valuation was a taxation survey, which recorded the details of people holding property. The dates of the records vary depending on when the various townlands were surveyed, but in the case of the county Wicklow they are generally dated 1853 or 1854.
There are just 5 entries for the surname Carton in the county on Griffith's :
1. Ralph, Village of Laragh, townland of Brockagh (1854)
2. James, townland of Meetings (1854)
I believe that Meetings refers to the townland near Avoca also known as the 'Meeting of the Waters', and this is located just 13km south of Laragh.
The other Carton listings are, further away from Laragh/Brockagh, and dont seem as likely :
3. Edward, townland of Knockananna, (1853)
30km south west of Laragh and near to Hackettstown (Carlow)
4. Terence , townland of Balyknocker (1853)
50km south and not far from the town of Carnew
5. Judith, townland of Lower Kilcavan (1853)
also near the town of Carnew
I based the previous baptism search for Catherine on the clue that her father's name was possibly Ralph - and that was the only match around the right time. The RC parish on that possible match was Rathdrum which is the one immediately to the south of Glendalough RC parish (where Laragh/Brockagh is located). The location of the 2nd Griffiths record mentioned above (James Carton, townland of Meetings) would be in this parish, and very close to Laragh, so a connection seems possible.
To prove that the 1829/Rathdrum parish baptism is correct, you would probably need to double check for any details recorded on Catherine's marriage to confirm that her father's name is indeed Ralph.
Shane
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Eyshame,
The following is an extract from the published notebooks of a district judge who was living and working in County Wicklow in the 1940's and 1950's. His name was Liam Price and he took a particular interest in the history of the area. He seemed to have spent a good deal of time touring the county, and kept notebooks detailing the places that he visited and the people that he met.
(The Liam Price Notebooks Part II Page 549) 22nd June 1952
Frank Byrne of Granabeg told me about the house which is now the easternmost house in Oakwood: a good-sized farmhouse standing in trees. It is not on the 1840 map. It was built by a man named Farrington. He got a lease of the place, and evicted the seven houses which stood 150yds to the W: these are shown in a group on the 1840 map. He pulled down the walls and ploughed up the gardens. There were Cullens in it, and Kavanaghs. Some went to Clane in Co. Kildare, others went to Brockagh. Byrne did not say when this took place, but it was probably in the 1860’s.
Oakwood was in the civil district of Hollywood at the time of the Griffith Valuation (around 1852) but there were no Kavanaghs listed there at that time. Oakwood was actually in the Catholic parish of Boystown (also called Blackditches or Valleymount). Price was mostly interested in Co. Wicklow, so there is little doubt that he is referring to Brockagh, Derrylossary.
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Shane i would love to have the mariage cert of Catherine and John Kavanagh, nee Carton if only i knew where to look to get it.
Jud72, that is very interesing information so thanks for that. I have yet to find out if the Cartons' and Kavanaghs' came from Brockagh or elsewhere in Ireland. I would love to find that information out though but being new to family research and very new to Irish history/family research i have no clue where to look.
E.
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Shane i would love to have the mariage cert of Catherine and John Kavanagh, nee Carton if only i knew where to look to get it.
Civil registration of Catholic marriages began in 1864 (non-Catholic marriages, including Registry Office ones, from 18450. Therefore, the first thing to do is to check the civil index. If the marriage isn't there it's likely they were married before 1864 in a Catholic ceemony which means seaarching for existing church records (which is why you need to know the parish, if not the townland).
See here: www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html
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I believe I checked the civil index for their marriage before, but found no sign of the marriage which possibly means they married before civil registration started in 1864. If this is the case there will be no marriage cert and parish records will be required.
I will double check the civil index...and post back if I find anything.
Since the two known children were born in Laragh, Brockagh, I believe that the parish for this area, Glendalough, would be the place to start the search. (details on this parish mentioned earlier) If the marriage is not in this parish the next step is usually to try the adjoining parishes - probably the best bet would be Rathdrum to the south.
Shane
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Thanks for all your help Shane. You know alot about Irish History/research. May i ask if you are Irish and if so where are you? you don't have toanswer of course as i am just curious/nosey, lol. E.
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There are a few female Carton (also Carten & Cartan) marriages in the early 1860s in County Wicklow, but the only one in the right area is a Margaret Carton in 1864.. only Catherine marriage I see is in 1870.. and that's a bit to the north east of the area in the Rathdown registration district. So it does look like the marriage was before 1864...
Since none of the Catholic Wicklow parish marriage records are available online at the moment it looks like the microfilms in the National Library in Dublin is the best chance of finding this.
Shane
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Thanks Shane, i appreciate your help and time. I have Thomas born 1865 and Lawrence 1866 but there may have been children before Thomas who didn't survive so i guess they were married before 1864.
I also think Lawrence died before 1870 as the family were in England by the 1871 census and Lawrence isn't on it so i think he died in Ireland aged 4 or less.
I will now only have less than one hour in Dublin so i won't get to the National Library.
Do you think there is any member who might do a look up for me or is that a long shot?
E.
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I cant think of anyone here on rootschat that has mentioned plans to carry out research for these RC parishes at the moment, so to be honest I think a two week deadline is a bit too short. This could be quite a time consuming search as the approx date of the marriage is not known (other than before 1865) and the marriage may have taken place in the Laragh area or one of the surrounding parishes. These are all on separate microfilms.
Probably the best thing to do is to keep an eye out on the Wicklow and Ireland boards to see if anyone mentions plans to check these particular RC parishes. Records are gradually being added to various websites and it is worth keeping an eye out to see if any marriage records for Wicklow are included. If so I'm sure they will be mentioned on the Wicklow section of Rootschat.
Shane
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I guess you are right, unfortunately.
What if they weren't married in Wicklow?
what if they were both born elsewhere in Ireland? Oh dear what a puzzle.
will i ever find the answer?
Thanks for all your help.
E.
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If they were married any distance away from the area where the two known children were born it means searching dozens of parishes instead of just a couple, which makes the search much more difficult. The place to start the search for the marriage is definitely the parish that you know they lived i.e. Laragh/Glendalough at when the children were born, and if the marriage cannot be found there then start on the other parishes surrounding the area. Probably starting with Rathdrum to the south which is the next nearest location for a Carton household at the time of Griffiths.
Shane
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will do Shane as best i can anyway.
I have looked for Lawrences' death between 1866 and 1871 without luck. would there be a reason why his death isn't listed?
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I checked for his death also - but nothing promising in the right sort of area, age or date. Although some early births (mostly 1860s/70s) were missed I think most deaths were generally recorded ok
Do you know a rough timeline for the family ? (when and where they lived etc.)
Shane
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I only know they were in Brockagh in 1865 for sure. I have no address for them as there is none on the Birth Cert. Since Lawrence was born 1866 i don't think they would have moved too far if at all. maybe his death wa one of the few missing.
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As far as I remember the 'address' on the birth was the townland of Brockagh.
Including just the townland as an address or residence on certs was quite common, and possibly meant they lived just outside the town of Laragh (which is in the same townland).
It might be worth ordering a birth cert for Lawrence at some stage to see if the 'address' is the same or there are more details included (or if they family moved..)
Shane
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So i could at least look at images of Laragh for an idea of where they once lived?
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If you google Laragh County Wicklow, you can see an aerial map of the town and the area...
Crabbya
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Thanks Crabbya, i will do that as it will be nice to see the area of my ansestors. E
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I am totally unable to find brother John born 1870ish in both Ireland and England. I am wondering how to follow Lawrence and see when and where he died, I am guessing ireland as he is not lised on the 1871 England census.
E.
Hello,
not sure from your various threads, whether you have son John's birth details- just that in 1881 where he is born Ferry Hill c 1872 - there is a birth 1872 -Stockton which covers Ferry Hill- have you checked on that one?
heywood
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I've had great difficulty finding your family and think I may have the wrong one there :-\
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Oh dear but thank you so much for taking the time and trouble to even look for me, i appreciate that. E.
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Out of interest because I am searching and searching- where are they in 1871 and 1881? I found a John b Ferry Hill but the older boy was also born Durham- that's where I thought I had the wrong ones.
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In 1871 they were living at 20 Wolsingham Rd. Tow Law Thornley.
In 1881 the were living in 2 Ratten Row Crook.
In 1901 i have John and Catherine living at Easington.
In 1894 Thomas married Margaret Mc Coy at Lanchester Durham. This is the only cert i have but i know brother John lived in Gateshead but i have never ever been able to find Thomas' death listed anywhere.