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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: scotabroad on Thursday 20 May 10 08:40 BST (UK)
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Was 1841 the first official census done in Scotland?
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Apparently it was 1801:
http://www.visitaberfeldy.com/scottish-census.htm
Ooops, sorry I forgot to welcome you to rootschat.
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thanks, do you know if we have any access to this information, my problem is that I have traced my wannan family back to the marriage of Alexander Wannan from dundee and Janet Mcintoish in coupar angus in 1798, but i can find janet in the 1841 living with her son in kemback, fife, but no trace of her husband, and i have tried to find any traces of his death but to no avail. My problem is to try and confirm his parents; once again thanks for the welcome and for any future help
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I think the census at that time only recorded numbers, rather than names, and I'm not sure how many have survived.
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I'm afraid I don't know about access to early Scottish censuses. Maybe someone else with more knowledge will be able to advise you.
I take it you use the IGI and Scotland's People in your research? Is this where you got the information about your ancestors?
Have you seen the entry for Alexander and Janet's marriage?
Have you seen the entries for all of their children?
I know it's pot luck what you get on the old parish registers, but sometimes you can get a little more information such as father's names, occupations or places of birth so it might be worth viewing them all just in case.
Is Janet still alive for the 1851 census? Have you looked for Alexander on the 1851 census? :-\
If I think of anything else I'll let you know.
I think this post might be better on the Scotland board (the rootschat Scottish researchers are second to none) so I will ask a moderator to move it for you. :)
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Hi and welcome :)
I've found a baptism of an Alexander Wannan in Dundee on 16 Dec 1772. It's the only one showing for Angus at the approx time.
His parents are given as Alexander Wannan an Marg(are)t Kennadie (presume -Kennedy).
This might not be him but is is a reasonable match. Do you have the names of his children in birth order and Janet's parents' names? This is often a good guide to parents.
Gadget
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This was my thoughts too. It seems to be a family where Alexander was always the name of the eldest son, this continued until about 1910. The only problemis that I cannot make a positive connection. But it seems that in some respect anyone bearing the name Wannan are somehow connected, but making positive links before 1800 has proved quite hard, but very interesting at the same time, because before starting on scotlands people, I had never realized the rarety of my mother's name and of the only locations being in and around Fife.
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comingback to your last posting ruskie, janet died in 1857,her mother's maiden name being Gordon,I have all theinformation concerning their children, althoughtheir births are not on scotlands people, but can be picked up later on marriage and eventually their children's births, and of course eventually death certificates. No trace of Alexander her husband in 1841 or 1851, in1851 I think she was in Cupar and on her death certificate, she is described as a widow
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Now this is better scotabroad - your post is now on the Scotland board (thanks aghadowey)and you've already got Gadget (one of the best) lending you a hand. ;)
Can you tell us the children's names in order as Gadget asked? If following the Scottish naming pattern, the first son is named after the father's father. But I suppose if they're all Alexander they'd also be named after the father. ;)
Are you saying that neither Alexander nor Janet's births/baptisms are on Scotland's People or none of the children's births/baptisms are on Scotland's People?
Are you able to match up the Alexander that Gadget found by his occupation or abode?
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Hi Gadget,
There are two Alexander and Margaret Wannans in Dundee.
Alexander Wannan = Margt Gourlay 4 Oct 1760 Dundee
Alexander Wannan - Margrt Kennedy 5 Dec 1765 Dundee
So it'll be a bit of fun trying to sort their children out if maiden surname isn't noted. :)
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No trace of Alexander in 1841 or 1851,
Have you checked all possible variations of the surname when looking for his death? When was his last known child born? (I'm trying to narrow down the time frame in which he may have died)
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Hi Ruskie
I don't see any children for Alexander Wannan and Margaret Gourlay so that might save some probelms :-\
Children of Alexander Wannan and Margaret Kennadie/Kennedy (all Dundee)
1767 - Agnes
1772 - Alexander
1776 - Robert
1778 - Elisabeth
It would be good if we could find some of these names (plus Margaret, of course!) in Alexander and Janet's children :)
Gadget
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A burial showing in Fife (from SP) that might be worth checking up on:
1 Jan 1826 Alexander Wannon, Kemback, Fife
I note that Janet was in Kemback on the 1841.
Gadget
( Janet was buried in Kemback burial ground - it may be worth checking the MIs for there)
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Alexander and Janet's son, John died in Kemback in 1872, aged 72. Alexander's occupation is listed as an Overseer in a Flax Mill.
Gadget
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haven't had time to dig out all the information, but will do it this evening and put it on the site, thanks for all the help
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can you give me the link for the burial site in kemback please?
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Sorry - I don't have it. I got the information from Janet's death cert. It has the place of burial on it.
There are some people on here who do have the MIs for Fife - maybe worth asking here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,148751.0.html
Gadget
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How did you get the information about the burial of Alexander Wannan 1 janvier in Kemback?
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How did you get the information about the burial of Alexander Wannan 1 janvier in Kemback?
Scotland's People - OPR burials
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First , thank you for the news about Alexander Wannan's death in kembeck in 1821, I hadn't thought of usine the soundex key.
so a little recap of the information i have that has been proved
Alexander Wannan married janet Mcintosh 18 Nov 1798 in Coupar Angus, he was originally from Dundee.
this is noted on the marriage certificate
Alexander (commonly know in later life as Sandyman) born about 181O died 1872
married Elizabeth (Betsy Nicholson) in 1844 and moved to dunfermline where he had children and there are still one or two wannans in dunfermline today.
John (my ancestor) born 1800 married Margaret Rodger or Roger in 1834 and lived in kemback.
James born 1799 married AgnesSquire in 1829
David born 1809 died 1887 single and was a grocer
Christian - single born 1802 died 1870 and was a millworker
jean(jane ) born about 1800 died 1889) married Alexande Auchterlonie in 1934
Ann born 1819 died 1890 and was single
thank you for any help
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sorry he died in 1826
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Oh dear, those names for the children don't fit, do they :-\
I'll have a think
Gadget
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what do you mean? could be that they lost the first child called Alexander, this happened to my grandparents and they ended up calling a daughter alexandrina
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I hope you aren't being as agressive as you are coming over. I'm trying to help you (they're not my ancestors!) and the John, James, David, Christian, Jean and Ann don't seem to fit - no Margaret or any of the other names (Agnes, Robert, Elisabeth)
I've used my own credits to help you so that's me out of this :(
Gadget
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I apologise sincerely, I really didn't mean to sound aggressive, maybe I've abroad too long. I am extremely grateful for all the help you've given me. I am very sorry to have given the wrong impression.
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Great work Gadget.
Specially finding the Kemback connection. ;D
But I've come over all confused and think I need to get this down on paper to try to work through it. Might we have our Alexanders confused somewhere along the line?
Scotabroad, was your Alexander a Flax Mill overseer as per the death of one of the Alexander's son's John that Gadget found?
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Hi ruskie,
I am really delighted about gadget finding the kemback confirmation. I visited Kemback during easter and had a walk around the cemetery but it was impossible to read some of the gravestones.In response to your question about Alexander's job, I am just checking the death certificates of his three unmarried children I have just checked one of the death certificates of Christian Wannan a daughter, and Alexander's job is written as amillworker. on another one it's written 'dyer' and on another 'flaxmill worker" I think Scotland's people is great giving us access to all this information. thanks again for all this help, it's wonderful.
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To summarise the findings so far:
The Alexanders:
An Alexander Wannan married a Margaret Kennedy in 1765, Dundee. They had the following known children in Dundee:
1767 - Agnes
1772 - Alexander - this is the only Alexander baptised 1740-1780 in Scotland on the IGI.
1776 - Robert
1778 - Elisabeth
An Alexander Wannan m. Janet McIntosh in 1798, Coupar Angus. Alexander was 'of Dundee'
According to Janet's death cert, she was 85 when she died, giving a birth year of circa 1772
Alexander and Janet had the following known children:
1799 James
1800 John
circa 1800 Jean/Jane
1802 Christian
1809 David
1810 Alexander
1819 Ann
An Alexander Wannan was buried in Kemback on 1 Jan 1826
On Janet's death cert Alexander is down as being an Overseer of a flax mill. Her address is given as Russellmill, Kemback
Gadget
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Thanks for the summary Gadget. That is very helpful. :)
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Hi again gadget.
the following is a connection I made when I first start doing the family tree.
James Wannan, who married a Euphemia Sharp in Dundee sometime before 1800 (i can't a date for them)
But what attracted my interested, was that one of their children :
James Ritchie married Agnes Ritchie in 1822 in Aberlenno
had a son james ritchie who married jane Nicoll in 1849,
who subsequently had a daughter Margaret who married William Miller in 1899
but what got my interest was the name of one of their children
jeannie Rodger Miller born in 1879.
I asked myself could this posibbly be a link to the Margaret Rodger who married John Wannan, son of Alexander Wannan and Janet Mcintosh
The mystery continues,I don't know exactly what could be the connection of the original James to the original Alexander .
Gadget,I just wanted to say that I have already access to quite a lot of the certificates on Scotlandspeople, so if you want, let me know if you want to access something and if I have it, then I could send you a copy.
thanks again.
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I'm a bit confused here:
James Wannan, who married a Euphemia Sharp in Dundee sometime before 1800 (i can't a date for them)
But what attracted my interested, was that one of their children :
James Ritchie married Agnes Ritchie in 1822 in Aberlenno
How was the son called James Ritchie if his father was James Wannan :-\
Have you followed up the James Wannan - death/censuses, etc.?
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sorry about that, i was typing too quickly, his name was just james wannan
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Can't see anything on the censuses so far but I'm on to something that might be interesting.
I've been trying to find the Agnes, Robert and Elisabeth Wannan who are the Alexander(1772)'s siblings. Nothing for Agnes or Robert but I've just found a possible for Elisabeth.
An Elisabeth Wannen married a David Allen in Dundee in 1796.
On the 1841 there is an Elisabeth Wannan in Coupar Angus, aged 60-64 (rounding). Given that many Scots women used their maiden name, this might be the sister.
Nothing else yet.
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When I looked up the deaths, I got a james wannan died in Dundee in 1830 aged 64, and his job was a weaver. and I've just noticed on the death certificate of his son James Wannan who was married to Agnes Ritchie, the father's job is noted as being a weaver, I am learning to be a lot more attentive to the detail on these papers than before, do you think that could confirm that it is the same James.
on the original birth lists for wannan, there was a James Wannan born to James Wannan and Elizabeth Donne in 1766 in Kettins, which is somewhere in Perthshire.
I've just read your posting while i was writing this,, Iagree with youfor the Elizabeth, i found a death entry for Elisabeth Wanen, with the name Allan/David Allan in the extra name added on 28.7.1822 in St Cuthbert's Edinburgh Midlothian.
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On James Wannan's (married to Agnes Ritchie) death cert what name does it give for his mother?
Sadly, the Couper Angus one in 1841 was likely to be the Elisabeth Wannan born Coupar Angus 1778 - parents Alexander Wannan and Katherine Saunders.
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It was Euphemia Sharp,
ps, can we scan these documents, and post them partially, or is that forbidden, and when we send a PM, are you able to send attachments.
thanksagain
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I've found the burial of a Euphen Wannen in Dundee in 1781. It's worth doing a search through the burial index on SP - try W*n*n with date and whichever county :)
You can attach small section of a cert but not the whole one for copyright reasons. With PMs you can only use the BBC tags (IMG and /IMG ) with a pre-processed image via Imageshack or photobucket, etc.
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I am a bit disappointed, >i'd found a Euphan Sharp who died in 1807,only to remember that her son Andrew Sharp was born in 1813., i'm a bit stuck with her then,
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Hello everyone,
a little update of information, of course for the moment I have no definite proof of the link,
but on looking at the birth certificate of
Alexander Wannan born on 16.12.72 in Dundee, son of Alexander Wannan (weaver) and Margaret Kennedie and countersigned by a certain Alexander Wannan great uncle.
On the death certificate of the Alexander Wannan who died in Kembeck in 1826, it's written Alexander Wannan from Blebo Mills, is it possible that a workforce list exists for this mill?
I don't really know where to go forward from here?
thanks once again for all the help given
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Hi
I'm not sure that a staff list would exist but at least the flax mill links Alexander to the death certs of his wife and sons.
Here's a site that might interest you:
http://www.atlanticnetworks.com/kemback/index.htm
Gadget
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Hello again everybody, a little twist in the story. I was on a website, where a distant relative, we had the same great great grandfather.
Now his tree was the same as mine up until Alexander Wannan married to Janet Mcintosh in Coupar Angus in 1798.
But then he matched a different person.
He matched with a
John Wannan married to jean Brown in Cargill in 1765.
Their children are the following
George born 1766
John born 1770
Alexander 1772 (the name has been written as Wanan and no mother mentioned)
Elizabeth 1775
Walter 1777
Margaret born 1780.
John Wannan married to Jean Brown, could be the son of George Wannan and Janet Corse married in Cargill and Inchture (there are two entries in 1739)
I think I already went down this waywhen I first started, but at that time I didn't know about the scottish naming traditions, in fact I only learnt about that last week from the site, and it could explain that John was the eldest son of Alexander Wannan and janet Mcintosh.
more food for thought.
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Just another quick update, had an email from my 'cousin', he has a family bible, which was given to John Wannan married to Margaret Rodger in which certain things were written
my father died in 1826 aged 52.
This confirms the death of Alexander Wannan in Kemback in 1826, and the age would make him born about 1774, which would only be two years out.
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Hello, I am also related to Alexander Wannan and Janet McIntosh. I have been working on this particular tree for about 12 years. My tree also includes different branches of descendants of this couple. Please reply if you are interested. Bye.
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Hello, Thank you for the personal reply but I have discovered that I can't reply to you in the same way until I have put 3 posts on the site. The post that I put on to you was my first!
Anyway, yes we are definitely related and I have been working on the wannan family tree for several years now.
As regards Alexander Wannan 1774- 1826 who was married to Janet McIntosh 1772-1857, I have found no Alexander Wannan born in 1774 but 2 born in 1772. One being the son of John Wannan and Jean Brown and the other being the son of Alexander Wannan and Margaret Kennedy.
I have always found it hard to decide whose son he might be between the two, then again he might be born to entirely different parents and his birth not registered at all. Therefore I have not entered any parents at all on my tree for him although as his eldest son was John 1800-1872 it seems more likely that his parents were John Wannan and Jean Brown. I would really like to have more proof than just his eldest sons name!
I have so much more info on the family tree for you so please keep in touch, regards, mumsdaughter.
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i saw your posting and thought once you answered this then you could send me a personal message
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Hi
I found this conversation while searching the Wannan name. I am also researching this tree :). I am researching on behalf of a Wannan who must be a relation of yours scotabroad :)
anyway I was wondering who is Georgina Hepburn born 1855 and listed as John Wannans(b1806) daughter in the 1861 census I believe its the same John wannan who married Margaret Roger and was living with her in 1851 census. but in 1861 Margaret is head of her family without john or eldest son Alexander and John and Alexander have acquired a six year old Georgina Hepburn. I don't think john is her father because the only birth for a Georgina Hepburn I found in 1855 lists David W Hepburn as her Father and Margaret Morgan as her Mother. so whats Georgina Hepburns connection to the Wannans? I know I got sidetracked but it puzzled me :) and I wondered if you had wondered about it to. anyway happy researching all the information you and other have posted about the Wannans has been very helpful. thanks
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Nice to hear from you, for the moment I don't know who this Georgina Hepburn is but you will find John aged 60 and Alexander aged 25 living under the name of Wannen in Kemback in the 1861 census. Which branch of the family is the person you are looking with?
best regards
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Hi I'm researching for my Partners step Mum. John Wannan is her 2nd Great Grandfather connected like this:
John Wannan (1800 -1872 )
has son
Peter Wilson Wannan (1847 - 1910)
has daughter
Nancy (Agnes) Farmer Wannan (1879 - 1946)
has son
Alexander Mercer (1908 - 1982)
has Daughter (*)
are you related to one of John Wannans children to?
I have a tree for them on Ancestry.com which I could share with you if you use ancestry. (*) will be pleased to hear Ive found someone else reseaching the Wannans. :)
Added: Names of (potential) living people must not be included on the main open forum to protect people's identity :)
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john wannan m margaret rodger
son Alexander Wannan m Isabella Laing
son Alexander Wannan m Christine Mcnoughton
son Alexander Wannan m Sarah Morris
my mum (*)
that is how I am related to john and margaret Wannan
Added: Names of (potential) living people must not be included on the main open forum to protect people's identity
Scotabroad, I am not sure if your mother is still alive as you haven't given any dates, so same rules apply here.
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Sorry, but I forgot to say that I am also on Ancestry.com.
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Thank you for letting me know my mistake :)
I know my Mum would love to hear any Wannan stories you know even just rumors she didn't know the Wannan side of her family as her grandparents separated. her Father used to say that the Wannans owed mines in kemback. I see miners on the census but not mine owners. stories about people bring them alive :)
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you will find John aged 60 and Alexander aged 25 living under the name of Wannen in Kemback in the 1861 census.
I can't find this, was it on Scotlands people? I've been using the transcribed census on ancestry and the only one I can find that could be him is the one with Georgina Hepburn listed as his Daughter. :)
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hi , yes it was on scotlands people, i'll send it to you via a private message. thanks for the link that you sent to me.
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Hi, I've just read your message re John Wannan & Georgina Hepburn. Georgina is not related to John or Alexander Wannan. (Ancestry.com Transcription Error) Actual Kemback Census 1861 reads:
"Schedule No:224. Dairsie Bridge. John Wannan, Head, Mar, 60, House Carpenter Master, b Fife, Cupar.
Alexander Do. Son, Um, 25, House Carpenter, b Fife, Kemback.
(End of the Local Sub-division of the remaining part of the Parish)
Omitted in Schedule No:221. Georgina Hepburn, Dau, Um, 6 Scholar b Fifeshire, Kemback."
(07/04/1861 Wannen, John [Census 1861 433/00 001/00 039] www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk)
Wannan at Dairsie Bridge is the last entry on Page 39 of this Census. Georgina has been missed out on Schedule No:221. Hepburn Family, Kinnaird Farm and added on at the bottom of the last page after entry for Wannan. This Census can be viewed either at scotlandspeople (Credits) or some Fife Libraries. Dunfermline Library History Dept. & Staff are 1st Class!
P.S. I too am a descendant of John Wannan & Margaret Rodger (GGG Grandparents)
Alexander & Isabella Laing (GG Grandparents)
Alexander & Christina McNaughton (G Grandparents)
The story in our family is that 3 brothers landed in Arbroath by boat, possibly from Holland, and they've spread out from there. There were certainly Wannans in the Angus area before Fife so maybe that is true. But the earlier Wannans at Tulliallan/Culross disappear about the same time so maybe they sailed up the coast to Arbroath!
Regards.
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Hi
just read your mail that makes us cousins of a sort, my grandad was alexander wannan, elder son of Alexander Wannan and Christina McNoughton, who are you related to in that family? Interesting to hear about the rumour that they came from holland, I often wondered if it was something like that.
hope to hear from you
scotabroad
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Hello scotabroad, Grandparents Alexander & Sarah from Springfield? My grandfather David was Alexander's younger brother, which makes us 2nd? cousins. So Hi. Maybe we can help each other out with the Family Tree or will that mean finding more Alexander Wannans!! Been seeing that name in my sleep recently! Good to make contact. Look forward to hearing from you. Regards, Dod.
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My father's name was Jere Clifford Wannan. His father was born in Edinborough(?) Scotland.
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My father's name was Jere Clifford Wannan. His father was born in Edinborough(?) Scotland.
Edinburgh not Edinborough.