RootsChat.Com
Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Rockbourne38 on Tuesday 18 May 10 21:26 BST (UK)
-
My great great grandmother was Ellen Elena BUTLER, and she married John James Shufflebottom. We have been told Ellen came to Australia from Cork in Ireland, and travelled on a ship named Resource, and her fare was paid by Mr J.W. Marshall.
We have also been told she came from Cork in Ireland
We would love to have a record of her birth date and place of birth, details of who her parents were, and if possible, information on whether she brought a child with her on the Resource, or had a child prior to coming to Australia, and if she did, whether any father of such a child is shown on any record.
-
Hi Rockbourne38
Welcome to RootsChat :)
You don't give any dates for your Ellen but there is this entry showing on the New South Wales, Australia 1828 - 1842, Bounty Immigrants List:
Ellen Butler, year 1840, Ship RESOURCE, from Cork
Father: Garrett Butler (dead), mother: Joanna
Not sure if this fits with your info.
Monica
-
It's not entirely clear to me from that record, if the ship left from Cork (which was a major port at the time) or Ellen was from Cork originally...
If Ellen was born in county Cork you might wish to keep an eye on the (free) website http://www.irishgenealogy.ie/ which is due an update in the next couple of weeks to include parish records for the City and western county. Knowing both parents names should be a great help confirming or ruling out any potential matches..
Shane
-
Your right Shane, not certain whether Ellen herself came Cork, or simply, last port departure for the ship.
Extensive trees on her, children and husband on Ancestry. Not sure what info would have been included on marriage certs of that period in NSW, to let you confirm her parents; names:
St Thomas Church, Port Macquarie, NSW, Australia - V1841658 25C/1841 SHUFFLEBOTHAM JAMES OR JOHN BUTLER EMMA CK - 5 July 1841.
Monica
-
If her father was Garrett Butler a Garrett Butler born 1793 died in October 1878 in the Mitchelston Reg District, Cork or Limerick Ireland. Might be worth considering providing she was young enough to have a father born in 1793.
Do you know roughly when she was born?
-
The record for her on the New South Wales, Australia, Assisted Immigrant Passenger Lists states her age in 1840 as 19
edit and Native Place for her is given as 'Cork'
Shane
-
Her age at marriage from those family trees shows as 21 in 1841, so all would fit with the dates being discussed.
Monica
-
Just a thought - the Resource manifest details shows father Garrett as deceased so not sure about the possible death you have found Coombs as a possible father, but maybe connected?
-
So she was born in about 1820. That Garrett Butler who died in 1878 aged 85 could well have been her father. UPDATE Just seen latest posts about him being dead by 1841.
Luckily the passenger list gave a gem of info such as her parentage.
-
Thank you so much for the info produced, I must tell you why this mystery has frustrated us, we started with my great grandmother Harriett Ann, a daughter of John James and Ellen/Emma and were told the maiden name of Harriett was Stevens, we searched for a marriage cert for Harriett and her husband Albert Phillips, but could not find one, when we eventually got one we found she is shown on her marriage cert as Stephenson, so then we went looking for details of her parents, and in the 1980s were told about the name change from Shufflebottom to Stevens, and after obtaining much info about our family on the Phillips line, and much on the Stevens line, we decided to look back past the Shufflebottom/Butler marriage, and are finding just as many dead ends as we did over the many years looking for a marriage of Albert Phillips and Harriett Stevens that turned out to be Stephenson, as Harriett could not read or write, but Albert could do both. We then found Albert was of aboriginal descent, but can only find a record of his mother and his stepfather, who was named Phillipe, then Phillips, but can still find no record of the biological father of Albert Phillips born at Williams River near Dungog in about 1840-43 period, but his death cert shows him age 69 in 1912, but not sure if that is correct as no birth record has been found so far. We have also not been able to find details of the parents of John James, just that he came from Burslem in Staffordshire, most of our frustration is because we dont know where to look and any sites that need payment are beyond our capacity to pay as we exist on our pension only. Wish we had been aware of this site earlier, it has been a great help to us, and for that we thank you, just our first day, and already getting results, thank you thank you thank you
-
Can be frustrating sometimes, especially the further back you go as records get thinner on the ground and it gets harder to verify information :-\
Some family trees show Ellen's mother as Johanna Barry (not clear what the source - marriage/death cert perhaps?).
Monica
-
This looks a possible christening entry for John/James on IGI at www.familysearch.org:
JOHN SHUFFLEBOTTOM Christening: 29 JUL 1810 Burslem, Stafford
Parents: WILLIAM SHUFFLEBOTTOM and ANN
There are a few more christenings showing there for a couple with these names.
Monica
-
Was John transported (life) to NSW in 1829 from what you know about him?
1829 John SHUFFLEBOTTOM 18 assault/to rob near Sturston life transportation:
John Shufflebotham/lab & groom/native place STS/
5'7"tall/fair-ruddy complexion/brown curly hair/blue-grey eyes/tattoos-greyhound & hare left arm,
woman & 2 birds right arm/
1829/Jul/hulk "Dolphin"/Chatham/
1829/Jul 30/New South Wales/ship "Morley"/sick on ship/paristhmitis tonsillaris/considerable swelling of left tonsil/26 Aug-1 Sep/diarrhea/24 Oct-30 Oct/
previous conviction in Cheshire, used to the treadwheel/
ticket of leave 18 Dec 1837/district Port Macquarie/
http://derbyscourts.com/index/data/1829.html
Monica
-
Yes that is the same John Shufflebottom who is my great great grandfather.
we have been told that when his daughter Harriett Ann married Albert Phillips, who was of aboriginal descent, her family ostracised her and the only one of her family who ever had anything to do with her after her marriage to Albert was her sister Mary Irwin, who died the year after Harriett died.
we would really like to find out so much more than just the generations from John and Ellen and Albert and Harriett, my husband has his maternal family tree right back to the late 1700s, taken from parish records in england because the church there still had all their records of births, baptisms, marriages and deaths, and the family seemed to stay in the same village, or close to it for generations, however my family in australia seemed to keep moving, and we just dont know where to start looking for those left behind in England and Ireland without going to great expense (for us) of paying subscription fees to the various online service that may be able to help us. We have also found over the years that although we are willing to pass our own family tree info on to anybody else in the family who asks for it, we so often find that other family members tell nothing, almost as if they believe that to keep it to themselves it gives them some power, but we continue to share, and just wish others would, have you come across things similar, there are really no such things as secrets in family history, because if you know it, somebody else will eventually find it, but it takes perseverance we have found, and dead end streets are a challenge, and your group are making things so much easier for us, just with the stuff you have given us today, that has confirmed things we had without any evidence, and given us hope at last that we can continue back past the 1840s and John James and his marriage to Ellen/Emma.
-
The Irish side for Ellen will be tough :-\ It is hard for all of us with Irish ancestors (which sometimes feels like half the world!). Keep an eye out for the website Shane mentioned earlier and the planned release of new records for the Cork area. From what Shane has said, it is free to use.
On the Staffordshire records, I hope someone comes along with experiece in this county and can give you some guidance on records there :)
Monica
-
Monica, you have no idea how pleasing our time has been on this dratted computer this morning, the info given to us, by both you, and by Shane, has been so good for us.
as we mentioned, we find it so frustrating that some family members know stuff, allude to it, but we just cannot pry it from the,
we were lucky in that some years ago, a great Aunt, who had lived with Harriett Phillips nee Stevens during the last 10 years of her life, was able to pass on to us so many stories about the family that would never appear on any sites with records of birth, death or marriage, just those family stories that are sometimes hidden and never get into print, and we recorded her information on tape, then typed it into our family history records, and we share it with all in the family who ask, so then they get it, warts and all, and sometimes it becomes upsetting for some family members to know about the things their ancestors got up to, but it is those stories that turn a family tree into a family history, do you agree? and thanks again, we will keep our eye out often and regularly for the info on update of Cork records
-
I agree researching Irish ancestors can be difficult as a lot of records were destroyed or lost. I think the 1851-1891 censuses of Ireland were destroyed by the Government.
-
The census returns for 1861 and 1871 were destroyed after the statistics had been extracted, the ones for 1881 and 1891 were pulped during the First World War,due to paper shortages.
Returns for 1821, 1831, 1841 and 1851 were destroyed in a fire and explosion in the Public Records office at the Four Courts in Dublin during the Civil War in 1922. Many Church of Ireland records were destroyed in the same explosion as these were considered state records and had been deposited in the records office for safe keeping.
Civil records are intact, but only started in 1864 (1845 for non-Catholic marriages). Staring dates for Catholic records vary quite a bit depending on the parish, but most have details from the 1830s onward. (Some RC parishes have much older records)
Shane
-
thank you to Shane for the info on Irish parish records, now I just need to know how I can do research on those records, as we mentioned, have been researching our family for nearly 40 years, but still really a beginner, used to go to a Genealogical society, but found to many dead ends, so stopped.
we would also like some guidance on how to find details of the Resource, the ship that brought Ellen Butler to Australia and if it is possible to find a passenger list for that voyage, we are not having any luck with that, because of lack of knowledge on how to find it,
are you able to help please.
-
thank you to Shane for the info on Irish parish records, now I just need to know how I can do research on those records...
Assuming that you dont intend visit archives and libraries here in Dublin, the choice for Co. Cork parish records depends on the area of the county involved. For the City and west county the best bet is the website mentioned earlier - http://www.irishgenealogy.ie/ which is planning an update of these shortly. Many records for the east of the county are available on the pay-website of the Irish Family History Foundation at www.irish-roots.ie
I believe the passenger list for the ship may be available on the Ancestry website
Shane
-
I did look at the shipping manifest on Ancestry to see whether any other Butler passenger showed but couldn't see any other that Ellen's entry.
I don't know if you have an LDS Family History Library near to where you live. From this site, looks like you can order a film for the full ship's manifest http://members.iinet.net.au/~perthdps/shipping/mig-nsw.htm
Monica
-
Thank you Monica, we did have a look on the Ancesty site after reading the message from Shane but found we had to pay to see the site, and noticed that they obtain the information for their passenger list from the NSW State Archives, so we went on to their site, and found the passenger list, and that was free, the problem is that the writing is so difficult to read that we could not even find anybody named Butler, and we were hoping to find both Ellen Butler and the name of the man who paid her fares, and perhaps other members of his family, as that would give us clue that perhaps he paid her fare so she would accompany them, perhaps as a maid for his wife, or as a governess or nanny for their children, but just could not read the writing, much being blamed by us on our age and eyesight, We have found that there is an LDS family history library not far from where we live, so we will investigate the use of their library and perhaps we will then be able to at least get those details. We have also done searches on details of the parents of John Shufflebottom, and are in the process of trying to identify which of the Shufflebottoms in Staffordshire are his parents, there are so many entries for Shufflebottom in that county, perhaps we will never get the correct details. We probably mentioned earlier that as well as finding dates of birth, baptism, marriage and death, we try whenever possible to make contact with other members we find in our family and ask for family stories, about the life and times, things that have been passed down from generation to generations, to add to the file on various family members, and turns the family tree into a family history, it makes it more interesting, and more to leave for our children and grandchildren. Thanks again for your marvellous assistance, and must say it again, wish we had found you so much earlier.
-
If you are certain that John's birthplace was Burslem, there is that christening entry that I posted earlier:
JOHN SHUFFLEBOTTOM Christening: 29 JUL 1810 Burslem, Stafford
Parents: WILLIAM SHUFFLEBOTTOM and ANN
Not sure how accessable death certs are in your part of the world and at what cost. Also, not sure whether death certs included parents' details at the time of John's death. Am I right in thinking that John died in the 1850s and Ellen remarried (from on line family tree details I have seen)?
Monica
-
I tried to see whether we could find an image to the Resource manifest on https://wiki.familysearch.org/en/Australia,_New_South_Wales_Index_to_Bounty_Immigrants
However, they only show an index card for Ellen - interesting to note that she is down as a Roman Catholic which will have an impact on trying to find records for the family back in Ireland.
Monica
-
Just had a look at the image for the manifest and Ellen's entry http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.asp?Page=NRS5316/4_4787/Resource_22%20Dec%201840/4_478700137.jpg&No=6
Can't see any reference to who paid for the trip on it unfortunately - this info doesn't seem to show for any of the entries :-\
Monica
-
I had a look though list of people on that trip by the ship Resource and I dont think the J.W. Marshall who arranged the ship travelled with them, but is mentioned on many of the records as the person the passengers were 'brought out by'. In the case of the assisted passenger scheme would he have arranged the travel when already based in Australia ?
From what I can see of the passengers most of the occupations are labourers & servants etc - e.g. Labourer, House Servant, Gardener, Farm Servant, Stone Mason, Painter & Glazier, Labourer, Coachman.
The listing for Ellen also mention one more detail that could be useful - the reference for Ellen seems to be a 'Pat. R. Joseph Geary and two others' I presume he was someone quite prominent in the area that Ellen came from which might help narrow down her place of origin within county Cork.
Shane
-
Hi to all of you researching Shufflebotham/Shufflebottom. I am a g g grandson, and together with other descendants whom have come together by email we have probably all but exhausted what is available in Australia. I actually live in Armidale, NSW where John Shufflebottom is buried. He died, to quote the newspaper at the time a "melancholy death." Somebody mentioned the name MACE. I am actually doing research with a gentleman by that name and his line comes down through Phillips.
If anybody would like copies of the newspaper article, various certificates etc, please respond and we may be able to exchange information. JJS actually left England as a Shufflebotham, according to records, but became a Shufflebottom in the colonies. Ellen changed the name to Stevens after his death in 1857. She also had a child out of wedlock after his death and before she remarried.
-
We knew most of what you have said, and we do have lots of stuff on all of the children of John James and Ellen nee Butler, but we did not know he left England as Shufflebotham, as his baptism is shown as Shufflebottom, as his name on the list of convicts on the ship Morley, so not sure how we could have missed that. We are aware of the son George that Ellen had 22 months after Curly died, and have had a copy of the report from the newspaper about the search for him when he was missing, and also copies of the statements made by his family to the police, for the inquest into his death. What we do not have is a birth certificate for him, nor a death certificate, and would appreciate copies if somebody has them, because we find our pension does not stretch very far when paying the cost of certificates. We have mentioned Mace, because Tom Mace is a cousin of mine, and he did mention he would be talking to you. It is likely that we have most of what you have, but there are lots of dates missing from the records of the descendants of those children of John and Ellen who kept the name of Stevens, but we have loads on Harriett who married Albert Phillips, because that is the stuff we have been researching for about 40 years and I had the advantage of being able to talk to and listen to the stories about the familly from my grandpa and his brothers and sisters while they were still alive, and told me the stories because I showed interest.
would appreciate any copies of certificates you would be willing to share, and Tom can give you my email address, my grandpa was Francis Phillips and his wife was Emily nee Basing, they married at Hillgrove on 1st May 1907 and we recently sent Tom a copy of their marriage certificate.
-
For all those researching the family of John James Shufflebottom and his wife Ellen nee Butler, we have now found the church in Ireland in which she was baptised and have obtained from them a copy of the entry of her baptism in that church and also a record of the baptism of her mother Johanna nee Barry, and in addition we have a record of the three children born to her father Garrett and his first wife prior to his marriage to Johanna nee Barry. If interested in details or copies, contact me and I am happy to share and provide copies of the above records to family members.
-
Hello, I'm very interested in what you've discovered about Ellen Butler. Her daughter Harriet Stevens was my great, great grandmother.
-
John James Shufflebottom and Ellen Butler were my 3rd great grandparents. I would appreciate any information on their life before arriving in Australia. With Thanks