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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: islay 1 on Sunday 16 May 10 13:52 BST (UK)
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This was my great grandfather,and later became a ship's rigger and seaman,living in Govan,but was born in Edinburgh in 1853.Unfortunately that is all that I know,although there is a slight - very!- chance that a family of the name of Swann may be linked.Any help would be greatly appreciated.Thank you.
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Welcome to RootsChat. :)
Presumably you know who he married? Your best way forward would be to view their marriage entry (he married in Scotland?) since at the moment I can find two Robert Smiths born in Edinburgh in 1853. The Scottish marriage entry should give you his parents' names thereby enabling you to move backwards.
Nell
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Hi Islay,
Welcome to RC. :)
Was your great-grandmother Mary Byron? If so, Robert married her in Greenock, 1889. At the time, he was 32 (Mary 22). He gave his parents as Edward Smith, baker (deceased) and Janet Smith m.s. [maiden surname] McLaren (also deceased).
hume
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Wow!Yes,he did marry Mary Byron,which is quite an uncommon enough name to think that you have definitely found the right Robert Smith.Thank you so,so much for taking the time to answer this question.It will help me no end,and I'm very grateful.
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This is a question for Hume,who found the details of my family yesterday. I have searched the scotlandspeople and family search for the information you supplied,to further my own search backwards,but cannot see any results at all in my searches. could you please explain where i am going wrong?Is there another resource that enabled you to find the birth of Robert Smith to Edward Smith and Janet Mclaren?I've searched for her too,and cannot find any reference to her on scotland's people or family search.I'd be grateful for your suggestions,thank you!
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The marriage certificate gives the details of both sets of parents as given to the registrar at the time of marriage, so presumably this is what is recorded on the marriage entry.
But I too could not find a matching marriage and I cannot find Robert on the 1861 census with a father Edward. He seems to have tweaked his age at some point.
Nell
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Thank you for looking,Carolyn
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Hi Islay,
Can I ask if this thread is related to another of yours; http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,456583.0.html?
As I had found two births to a Edward Swan and a Janet McLaren; Janet in 1857 Edinburgh and an unnamed daughter in 1863. No marriage as I can see, or any birth of Robert but I wondered if this was the clue or connection you may be looking for.
I also found them in the census but will wait for your answer. :)
hume
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Yes,yes!I have posted about the Swann family in connection with this Robert Smith. Oh,please help me solve this puzzle! I am spending hours on scotlandspeople and on ancestry and family search and getting nowhere with this branch of the family,although with some help from the very kind people here on another branch I have been able to delve further on my own with great success.I am so grateful.
My grandfather wrote that his father Robert Smith had been born in Edinburgh 1853,but that was all,except that there was a connection with a Swann family - names Edward and a son Robert,also of Edinburgh,and that one may have been an engraver in metal.I found this in a note on a piece of paper years after after he died,when I was clearing my dad's effects after he too had passed away.Sadly all of my relations have died within the last five years and I have no one to ask if they can shed any light for me,as I could not find a connection at all.
I should be so very grateful - and delighted - if you can help me.Thank you,Carolyn
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Hi Carolyn,
This is the 1861 census entry that I found. Edward is a coach builder in this one which I'm not sure relates to either an engraver or a baker but they did tend to change their trades depending on where they lived etc. :-\
Address: 17 Gibb's Entry, Edinburgh, Midlothian
Edward Swan, m, head, 44, coach builder, b. St Cuthberts', Edinburgh
Janet Swan, f, wife, 30, -, b. St Cuthberts', Edinburgh
Robert Swan, m, son, 6, scholar, b. St Cuthberts', Edinburgh
Jessie Swan, f, dau., 3, -, b. St Cuthberts', Edinburgh
hume :)
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Hi,Hume,thank you very much for sending me the census information. I didn't realise that people changed their jobs like you said,but should have thought of it.I wonder if I could take up just a little more of your time?
Could you explain to me about the births of children between Edward Swann and Janet McLaren that yesterday you said you'd found?Somehow you've discovered that my great grandfather's (Robert Smith b.1853 Edinburgh,married Mary Byron,Greenock)parents were Edward Smith and Janet Smith,nee McLaren,so presumably this confirms that they were married?(Where can I find this information that you did?)Could Edward Smith have died and is this Janet in the census of 1861 the same lady who has now married Edward Swan,do you think?I'm still trying to find a link here - feel we're getting so close!How do the dates for these births look as a possibility?
Thank you very much for your help,Carolyn
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Hi Carolyn,
This is quite a confusing one. I will try to lay it out best as possible though. ;D
Edward Swan was born 9th August 1815 in Edinburgh, son of Edward Swan and Elizabeth Maxwell. This is a submitted entry on the IGI, so it would need to be confirmed by the OPRs at SP. Edward appears with parents in the 1841 census at South Leith:
Address: Kirkgate, South Leith, Midlothian
Edward Swan, m, 50, tailor (journeyman), b. outside county
Elizabeth Swan, f, 50, milliner, b. outside county
Edward Swan, m, 20, coach builder (journeyman), b. in county
According to birth certificate of the unnamed daughter Swan born 1863, Edward Swan and Janet McLaren married 1845 in Edinburgh (no exact date given).
In 1851, I cannot see the family. However, there is an Edward Smith, joiner, aged 33 lodging in Edinburgh with an Alexander Smith, aged 6. :-\ Maybe someone else can take a look? Edward's parents are staying at Tolbooth Wynd, South Leith in 1851. Two grandchildren; Edward, a scholar, aged 7 and Jane, aged 2.
In 1861, we have the family above. Edward's parents are still living in 1861, at North Gray's Close, Edinburgh. The two grandchildren are staying with them; Edward, 17, who now works as a dic & staurp?? cutter and Jane, 13.
I believe Janet Swan m.s. McLaren died October 8th 1868 in the St Cuthberts' Poorhouse. :'( She is described as the wife of Edward Swan, pauper and she was 38. No parents' names and the death was registered by a poorhouse official, I think.
Edward Swan died December 12th 1868 in the Poorhouse; although confusingly, he is listed as the widower of Elizabeth Begbie. :-\ He was 54 and his parents are as above, both deceased. Death was registered by his son, Edward Swan.
However, where does the name change come from? I don't easily see Robert in 1871 to question where he went after the death of his parents.
hume
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Dear Hume,I have been looking forward to your reply all day,as I am very eager to find out how this mystery resolves itself,and I thank you very much for all the trouble and work you have obviously gone to.
May I ask you to confirm what I think you said another day,that Robert Smith,b1853 in Edinburgh,who went on to become a ship's rigger and to marry Mary Byron,stated that his parents were Edward Smith and Janet Mclaren on his marriage certificate,and were they themselves married?i.e.janet Smith nee McLaren?
Is it possible if that was the case that Edward Smith died quite soon after Robert's birth and Janet remarried again,this time to Edward Swan?Could he have brought up Robert ?
Lastly,(sorry!)when you say that Edward's parents are staying at Tolbooth Wynd,with the grandchildren,do you mean Edward Smith or Edward Swan's parents?
Are all family histories as puzzling as this one is to me?Thank you again for all your help,Carolyn
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Hi Carolyn,
I believe Edward Smith and Edward Swan are one and the same, and Swan is the "true" family name. For whatever reasons, it seems Robert himself chose Smith as his surname and used it when he married and afterwards. He also seems to think (or make up) his father was a baker ... when in fact it seems he was a coach builder or similar. :-\
Edward Swan/Smith and Janet McLaren were married as per their daughter's birth record; however, I cannot see any record of this. This isn't too unusual as some marriages were never registered or have been lost. It's also another possibility the marriage was carried out in another denomination from the Church of Scotland.
The parents I mention are Swans, parents of Edward who married Janet.
hume :)
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Hi,Hume,thank you for the very detailed information that you sent in answer to my(seemingly endless) queries.It seems that I have quite a few mysteries in my family life! However,you have done so much work to help me unravel them,and I am most appreciative.
I suspect that this is the end of the line as far as researching this branch of the family goes,I can't see where else to go next,so thank you again, I really am most grateful.Carolyn
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A message for Hume - do you know how many Robert Smiths there are recorded as having died in Glasgow area between the birth of his last child and a possible old age of @90? So,so many!I have spent a fortune at SP,looking at so many records which were not the right ones,but this morning,trying again....I found it! Robert's death certificate(ship's rigger,married to Mary Byron,so no doubt) records his parents as Edward and Janet Smith(nee McLaren) - not Swan unfortunately,but puts the father's occupation down as...coachbuilder.(not baker)It seems to confirm all your hard work last month that Edward Smith was in fact Edward Swan,coachbuilder.Just thought I'd let you know that your suspicions look bang on.Thank you again foryour help last month.Best wishes,Islay.
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Hi Islay,
Such great news that Robert's death certificate came up with that information. 8) It just shows that some information must have passed down the family, although I don't know how you'll find out why the name change occurred. Perhaps just a family rift of some sort.
Let us know if you need anything else - I'm sure there are a few missing records that would add to the story and your tree. :)
Regards
hume
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Hi Carolyn I am Robert Swan Smith and Mary Ann Bryons great grandaughter. He moved from Edinburgh to Greenock and started his life their with Mary. They had their family which consisted of my grandfather and his brothers and sisters who are among names called Edward, Robert, Alexander, Mary, Jane John and James all surname Swan Smith. Can I ask whom you are related to?
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HI Carolyn I have his death certificate and marriage cert and can tell you about my grandfather. I have an idea of where the other children are.
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Just out of interest Robert Swan Smith was a shipsrigger in the Merchant Navy could he have added the Smith if there were two people on the ship with the same name and it stuck on his records? Is that a think does anyone know?
Carolyn do you per chance has a ship in a bottle? so far both us and our cousins we have found of James kids have a ship in a bottle made by Robert Swan Smith
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Wie,
I am so very sorry not to have replied sooner to your post, but I only noticed it this morning after a long break from ancestry hunting! How amazing that we may be related, and I had no idea that Robert Swan Smith had been in the Merchant Navy, although we were up in Greenock last summer, and will be again next year, and I did know about Mary Jane and him living there. Also I had no idea he made ships in bottles!
I am the granddaughter of Robert's first son, Edward. I hope you find this message so that we can exchange news further. Very best wishes to you, Islay.
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Hi Wie, I have only just noticed your post today after having a long break from ancestry hunting, and I was most interested to see it. Thank you for the message.
Like yourself I am the great granddaughter of Robert Swan Smith and Mary Ann Byron. I am descended from their first born child, Edward. I will leave it at that for now in case you too, are having a break from family tree business and don't see this reply, but if you do, it would be wonderful to make contact and exchange more news. Hope you see this soon and respond as I am quite excited! Best wishes, Carolyn.